We're privileged to have Rick Meyer with us, a man whose impressive history of pastoring and caring for leaders is nothing short of inspiring. Today, we're journeying through the landscape of soul care, examining its pivotal role in the American Reformation. Rick’s insights on discipleship and relationships within the church will uplift you and rekindle your faith.
We'll journey into the depths of our faith as Rick shares his personal experiences and reflections on Psalm 22, a powerful tool for expressing our pain and responding to suffering. Rick's story of radical dependence on God during times of hardship illuminates the importance of the cross and the hope of resurrection. These reflections will guide us as we explore ways to nurture our own stories and care for the souls of others. The road may not always be easy, but the rewards of such explorations are rich and deeply fulfilling.
Finally, we venture into the often-untrodden territory of emotional needs and vulnerability. Here, Rick opens up about the importance of finding a safe space for sharing and the fear of appearing weak. We'll explore societal norms, the differences between men and women, and how we can foster an environment that allows for genuine expression. This episode is a powerful reminder that we are, each of us, fearfully and wonderfully made. So let's buckle up for an emotional and enlightening ride through soul care, discipleship, and emotional vulnerability in the church.
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Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.Speaker 2:
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I am in rainy Arizona right now. Hurricane Hillary, her tail, has whippened through us and I will tell you this man rain is a gift from God, especially when you spent the summer months in 115 in Phoenix, arizona. The rain of the Holy Spirit is about to descend upon us today as I get to talk with, get to know more deeply, rick Meyer. Rick has an amazing story of pastoring as well as caring for leaders and just loving those that are walking through the ups and downs of life, which are inevitable. Today, the topic is soul care, which, rick? I don't think we can talk about this topic too much. I guess I would have delved into this, and so this is going to be fun today. But opening question how are you praying for Reformation in the American Christian Church, rick? Rick Meyer. Thanks for hanging out, rick.Speaker 3:
Meyer Absolutely. It's good to be here, man, and I'm grateful for your sake that you got that rain, rick.Speaker 2:
Meyer oh yeah, thank you.Speaker 3:
Rick Meyer, it's a beautiful thing at the temperatures you guys have been having. Rick Meyer, yeah, I'm down. Rick Meyer, the American Reformation Well, the word that comes to my mind and I've been actually thinking about this quite a bit lately, because my latest book that I'm in the middle of writing really tries to pay attention to this subject, and the word is discipleship. And so you know this, I know you've thought a lot about it, written about it. Whenever I talk with a young person, say 18 to 25, and they're in the church and they're just really solidly there, you know, and they're growing in their faith, they're walk with the Lord, I like to ask the question why did you stay? Why are you still in the church? And invariably the answer comes back something like this Someone outside of that young person's family invested in them in the church. They just poured into them. They were the person who that young kid knew whenever they went to church, that this man, this woman, they were going to ask about me, they were going to do a serious check in and really love on them. That was sort of like number one is the thing I hear. Second thing is they felt needed. They were involved at a young age and to ministry. And then the third thing good foundational teaching. You know they can look back and say you know, I really got the basics. You know those three. If I mean, I just am getting so used to hearing those three that where I my conclusion is that's what all of us need at every age. If that was right.Speaker 2:
Yeah, it'd be totally changed, man. I hear if a young person I would say any person just coming into the church. These are three core needs Will it be known, will I be needed and will I grow in my knowledge and fear the Lord? There's some alliteration there too. That's the height of hospitality, I think. I think a lot of times you think hospitality at a church, oh, that's like make sure we give a handshake and people need to be seen and cared for. But are we setting up environments in the local church where people can be, and especially starting with our younger folks? I got a shout out to my friend, doug, who's pouring into my son Malachi right now, and Doug came to my son's football game, drove out 45 minutes to come to his football game on Friday night and just his presence there, that means the world. And he's kind of like he's not married right now. He's had a couple kids and just wants to pour and they're grown, you know, and he just wants to pour into my son and that means so so much and we need more dugs, right, rick?Speaker 3:
We do and Mary's, and they can be a lot older than that and they're going to be, they're going to just have a huge impact. I mean, their own kids, their own children and grandchildren might be struggling and may not be connected to faith and church life, you know, but they're finding a way to pour into somebody who's right there and that's just like you said. I love the hospitality imagery there. Yeah, that's awesome, yeah.Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think there's this balance for many church leaders between organic relationships taking place and then how do? What is the structure or the environment that needs to be created for those environments to take place more naturally? So in our context, small groups have been a big deal for us and a lot of life on life, you know, down through the generations. Having moms and dads pouring to other kids, you know that's really had a profound impact. What we've been wrestling with recently is service. So what happens if an older adult went and hung out with my son around we'll say Doug and Malachi, they're going to serve together at La Mesa and which is a meal and worship inclusive of the working, poor and homeless, like doing that together and then going out and grabbing, you know, a cup of coffee or something like that after serving. I mean the bonds that form through service and deepening relationships are so, so huge. So I tend to lean a little bit more toward organic. But there has to be some sort of intentionality about leadership to say these are the environments where relationships take place, especially cross generationally. Anything more to add there, rick?Speaker 3:
Well, I'm just thinking about you know you as a pastor, and I've been in ministry for over 30 years and I there's just something that another person can do for my child that I cannot do. There's a lot that I can do, but I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm part of that system and they need someone from outside of that family system to recognize and say you know, you're a value, like you were saying you're, you're a value, enough value that I care about you and I want to, I want to hang with you, I want to, you know, be one of those people in your life that you can kind of count on. And I'm going to look, and you know the crush, Mentoring, reverse mentoring, that mutual mentoring, whatever language you want to use there. You know it has to go the other way. You know it's not just I'm going to teach you a few things, but, man, I am interested in your perspective and what you're learning, because I'm going to learn from you, I'm going to grow from that. And it's really easy for me as a late baby boomer, because I desperately need help in so many areas, that it's easy for me to say, man, I just let's spend a little time together because you're going to need your insight here, you know, especially when it comes to technology, but relationally too. You know, these are different generations. They're growing up seeing and hearing things we didn't.Speaker 2:
Yeah, I'm coaching my son's football team right now. So hanging out with 15 to 18 year olds, you know, five, five, six days a week, developing relationships, it's super fun and like the language that they use. Rick, I don't, I don't know, I'm 42 right now and the kids are coming out of the locker room and say, hey coach, hey coach, what, what you think about my drip? I'm like, come again Now, what do you think? What do you think about my drip? And in it, like how good they looked with their extra accessories on their arms and their that's, that's drip, rick. I probably just taught you something there.Speaker 3:
You just taught me something.Speaker 2:
Yeah so. I mean lots of learning new language. Go ahead.Speaker 3:
I mean, I, you know my, I think of coffee, my coffee Drinks, right, you know coffee, yeah, a drippy, a drippy roof, no, and it's what they're.Speaker 2:
It's what they're wearing. I can go into a whole bunch of other, but there's, there needs to be a mutuality in learning. I'd love to talk with you. What captured me about your story is your, your struggle with shingles. A lot of times people have shingles and the Lord, you know. He whispers to us in our pleasures, but he shouts to us in our struggles, right, and so what has God taught you through pain and struggle with really a chronic what it sounds like more of a chronic battle with shingles and I know that's, I've known brothers and sisters. It's so, so painful. Tell us about that story, what the Lord has revealed to you.Speaker 3:
Yeah, and the blind eyes heard about it too. You know, visited with people and man, you know, till you're there. You know you have a clue, but extreme pain and chronic pain is the best I can say. So I would love to tell you that I started out right away saying, all right, god, teach me and help me grow. And on some level that was there, but it was almost more like you know I was, I was flying by instruments on that one I knew that was the right thing, the right posture, right, but I didn't start there. I mean this, this hit in January of 17. And it and Tim, it took me two to three years to really start moving in that direction. For the first couple of years, you know, I didn't care if I continued living or not. I mean, thankfully we have Job and and Elijah and Jonah and you know, and a number of the Psalms to draw upon to see that there's an invitation for us to give expression to the hardest, most vulnerable emotions. But I, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I really felt as though God had. I thought God was there, but I felt as though he had turned his face of blessing away from me and it's just genuinely the way it feels. I've talked with other people going through this now and they gone through times too where they just at night, pray God, please take me home to be with you. I just want to be with you. And God says learn to pray your own Psalm of lament. I'm sorry, learn to pray your own Psalm of lament. So so I mean it's. You know, my God, where are you? Have you? Have you abandoned me forever? I mean this. This is kind of stuff we find in those individual Psalms of lament, and these are people of faith crying out. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to encourage people going through hardship and painful situations that you know you might not feel it on an emotional level, but God wants you to say this. Now he's turned into me and saying Rick, I want this full on, and I had hard, hard conversations with God. I I told God some things that you know looking around and I'm really not wanting anyone else to hear what I'm saying, but one of the things that got became reinforced for me was what did Jesus choose to spare To speak from the cross? I gotta, I gotta get to the cross right, and you know, psalm 23 is probably the best known Psalm of any right. The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not, I shall not be in want. It's just sings of comfort and the joy of the Lord. But our Lord didn't choose Psalm 23. Yes, sir, psalm 22. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And in that moment I know I have a God who understands me better than I know myself, because he understands the question why I'm starting to get preachy. I love it, rick.Speaker 2:
Sorry about that it's just life, man. It's just life. Eventually we're all going to be there and I think the the blessing of suffering is is just radical dependence upon God. Right, yeah. And Romans five is so seared into my memory because I walk alongside secondhand trauma and and then I've experienced my own struggles and my family and things, and we all, we all do. It's inevitable, but Paul's, paul's journey of faith to rejoice and suffering, knowing that here's the trajectory of life. It's perseverance, scott, I'm going to trust in you. I'm going to develop. There's a lot that's being written right now about grit. I'm not going to give up. But even though I feel like it and I may even tell you that I feel like it, perseverance and that character, that radical dependence upon you, through everything you must be my rock and my shield, that very present help and trouble, even though it feels like you've forsaken me, turned your back on me. I know you in essence turned your back on the sun and the sun will never turn his back on me. He loves me more and he sits with me. He knows what it is to suffer and even cry and weep over my suffering, and then that moves us to the hope of the resurrection on the last day when suffering, trial, lost tears, death itself will forever be vanquished. So you got me preaching to here. That's the ultimate goal is the way of. You've gotten to walk the way of the cross, right, rick? Well, a lot of times, especially in our American comfort. This is an American Reformation podcast. In our American comfort, we've had so many creaturely comforts that then, when something within us or around us gets discombobulated, we say where are you got? And we ask the why? Question, which are very natural questions. So as you journeyed through that, what new questions did you start to ask out of the you know where are you? It feels like you've turned your back. I mean, it's the stages of grief in many respects, right to maybe even different questions. Yeah, talk about that.Speaker 3:
Well, you know, I learned in more personally, experiential way, that we often have to go through Psalm 22 on our way to Psalm 23. You know, I mean, I get to start at Psalm 23.Speaker 1:
And for me.Speaker 3:
I am one of those small percentage of people who the pain associated with shingles is something that's going to stay with me the rest of my life, and so it's a matter of learning how to, you know, turn that corner with God and trust that he is with me. You know you touched on it with Paul. You know he talked about that suffering and identifying with Christ through his suffering, and I think that's what I'm thankful for. I used to get to the cross pretty quickly, but I move there really, really fast now and I know that's really what we all need is to get there fast. That's got to be our beginning and end point. I mean, there are so many different variations on certain themes, that belief and practices from one church expression of the body of Christ to another, and I like to say listen, you have to start with the cross, you have to start with Christ and his suffering. If you don't start there together and instead you talk about these differences and variations and I'm not saying those things aren't important to really pay attention to, right, but if you start there, you may never, ever get to Christ. You know just, you know, think about Christmas meals with those extended family around the table and you know you have enough father right there, probably the job, I think. Sorry, I start to move into soul care very quickly in this conversation and I think about what I've learned and what I like to talk with others about because, as you know, tim, we teach what we need.Speaker 2:
That's right. That's right. So facts that teach us right now. How do you define soul care? And I'd love to hear the basic tenets of soul care. And then you know it's always we can't take people someplace, we've not been right. So how do you share your story, integrate your story and caring for your own soul as you care for the souls of others. So, definition and basic tenets of soul care, because in the Lutheran tradition it's probably any of our listeners are Lutheran it's not something I think it's becoming more popular to talk about in this day and age. Soul care I'm hearing some Lutheran theologians delving into it more, but maybe you know it's come out of a lot of the contemplative, maybe Catholic strands. Soul care we're talking, the rhythms of Sabbath and silence and solitude and those types of things. Caring for those are some of the rhythms that can help us tend for, you know, daily and then on a weekly or quarterly type of basis, our soul and then the father, the spiritual father and mothers. You can come alongside us to help help peel the layers of the onion so that we can get to the deepest parts of us. It's not something that happens very naturally for many folks here, so this is going to be awesome. Definition basic tenets of soul care.Speaker 3:
So this is simple in a way, but I start with Jesus asking what's the greatest commandment Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, mind, soul, strength. And the second one is, like it, love your neighbor as yourself. So I have relationship with God, self and other. But I must attend to and I know, you know, when I think about my training as a pastor and moving into my first call and what that felt like I, you know, I thought I was focusing on God pretty well and I had a heart for others. I do a really good job with myself. It's kind of like the curse of the plumber's home. You know that's the last place to get any plumbing done. You know you're plumbing for everybody else's house, but you're on. And it's kind of like that for pastors too, I'm afraid. Right, I mean, if we're going to be in the Word, it's going to be to prepare a message or some teaching or whatever, but to actually sit alone with God. I mean soul care has to, has to start there, and so God, self, others. I need to be paying attention to word and prayer in my own life just for me as it were, and my family. And then I need, I need some good brothers in the Lord who are willing to be honest and vulnerable together, pray with and for one another, so the the need for others, God, self and others start start to take shape there. Well that's. You know that some of those elements have taken me a long time to learn. So I, I don't I mean, I don't know how that's been for you, but it sure has been a long journey for me. Oh my, it's a lifelong journey, it is, it is. But to actually get to the place where I'm starting to institute different practices, you know, starting to actually new behaviors to reinforce.Speaker 2:
Tell me about them.Speaker 3:
Yeah, well, you know it's, it's. It is a matter of finding those guys who are really ready for that kind of conversation. And you know, unfortunately we can't go to a circuit and just automatically assume everybody's at that place, because they're not. I you know I won't say which circuit this was, because I've been in a number of them, a few different states, this kind of thing but I had one where it was all, it was all business and we didn't share deeply in the struggles and there wasn't even prayer. It just wasn't, there wasn't even prayer.Speaker 2:
So when? When you're talking circuit circuit pastors, gatherings, is what you're talking about, if people don't understand right?Speaker 3:
That's right.Speaker 2:
What a circuit is yes, right, so a gathering of pastors in a in a respective location. And you see more something, a Winkledean circuit gathering of pastors, and they vary this was my doctorate study, Rick. What takes place in those circuit gatherings Very so, so, so much. And the training of the circuit visitor is not standardized across our church body and so it's kind of willy-nilly. Hopefully you've got someone who's attuned to the needs of pastors and can allow them space to share the ups and downs of what's going on, not just in their ministry but maybe even their, their family. I would love for that to be the case, right, but it's. It doesn't sound like it was in that one, in that one case for you and that's all.Speaker 3:
They're varying degrees, you know, from one to another and there's some, you know, and I'm not saying these are just really great people, because by and large, that's that's what I find. These are awesome people who are servants of the Lord, who are truly. They're out there hitting it every day, doing their best and God's working through them, you know, doing great things. So that please don't hear me saying anything other than that, Because I've seen that, I observed that too. But you know, it's that handful, Sometimes it can be small, maybe one or two initially. Who they get it, they, they, they can talk with you, pray with you and for you, so that's, that's a huge deal. I mean, we could break this down in different categories and so forth, but I think it's those three dimensions which are sort of my starting point when I think about soul care.Speaker 2:
Yeah, god's self and others. So can you use that kind of as a framework If you were to say, hey, let's get together, say, and there's a lot of mutuality here, just a journey, brother, journey, sister. They just care for one another's souls. Tell me about what the Lord is speaking to you, where and how is he speaking to you. Tell me what's going on in your relationship with others. Is there a depth there? Or is there, you know, maybe a sense to isolate and then talk about? Talk about what you, what you think, what's going on in your own thought life, to maybe challenge some of those presuppositions? Is that what I hear you saying? Maybe even a framework for questions that a brother or sister could ask of another? Is that? Is that pretty fair, rick?Speaker 3:
It is. It is I and I and I would. I think we can draw upon God's self and others. You know what? What? What's Greg? Greg Finke of joining Jesus on his mission in fame likes to say you know how's God messing with you? You know, and that's pretty darn good, right there, greg has a good. He does a good job of putting the cookies on the lower shelf. You know what I mean.Speaker 2:
He really he really does. Yeah, the, the, the. I'm going to go into some gender distinctives right here, rick. I think that I think that men again, generally speaking here and there's been a lot of social scientists, sociologists that have delved into this but what do men like to talk about In general? It's global problems, right, so the things can be elected. The GOP who's going to get that nominee, or whatever, or it's, or it's a. You know, I'm a Denver Nuggets fan. Denver Nuggets love to talk about that or what's going on in the economy today and like we're going to, you know, fix, fix, those types of things there's. We love to stay high level problem solving, kind of emotionally sometimes detached, and for good reason. For good reason, we need to make simple, you know, or strategic changes as we go on in our life or in the life of our congregation. There's some general leadership principles that are there, but guess what, guess what? Women are more attuned to Relationships and emotions. There was a study done I don't know where I heard this where they put women and men for 30 minutes just in an empty room and then said you're not going to get anything. There's no phone, there's no book, there's no, nothing. We just like you to sit here and then we'll, then we'll come back and we'll have a conversation. So they came back to the men and guess what? They asked them that, what were you, what were you thinking about? And the men go uh, not a, not a whole lot. And the women came back. Women, what were you thinking about? I was thinking about a relationship and a conversation that I had recently and how the conversation could have played out more effectively. It's God fearfully and wonderfully made it. So I say all that to say I don't think that the soul care conversation. I mean a lot of men who listen to American information. They probably already turned this thing off because it sounds so, you know, soft, probably maybe even effeminate. You want me to sit down and talk about what's going on in my soul or in relationships, it's like. I don't do that. I just don't do that, Rick. So what would you say to that brother who has some hesitancy to even explore the depths of soul care?Speaker 3:
And Jesus stood at the tomb of his friend Lazarus and he knew and this is really important. Jesus knew what he was about to do. He knows he's gonna raise this guy from the dead, but he shows up in that setting and he looks around and he thinks about his love for his friend and he weeps. Just sit with that. Just sit with that. When's the last time you wept? Well, if you can identify with Jesus there or you want to, I think we've got the great basis for a conversation and we can begin that journey together. Now I'm gonna share with you a funny story. When, for my first child, we were going through Lamaze and they split us up like your illustration Women over here with newsprint men over there, newsprint list all the emotions that you're experiencing associated with this pregnancy and having a child. So the guys get together and we look at each other, looked out at the floor, don't always make eye contact and somebody says happy, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm very happy. Put that up there. Happy, someone else maybe? They said, joy, okay, and I'm sitting there because I've been trained in this stuff. Right now, I know the emotions. I can take them off, but am I gonna do that right there and then no, besides, wouldn't be feared it Take away from them their opportunity to come up with emotions. So but I venture out a little bit and I say fear, just silent. I go ahead and write fear up there Quiet, though Kind of looking around I mean pregnant pause, and then someone says what'd you think about that cold scheme? Yeah, yeah, and we're off and running. We're talking about football. From that point forward until our session is done, they bring us back and the facilitator says okay, let's see your lists. And our pathetic little list had about three emotions. Then the women pulled theirs out. They had a full column, that whole newsprint. We're talking the big page stuff, right, and they starting on a second column. And one young guy in my group bless him for this. He speaks up in the most genuine way and he says you know, we didn't even know where there were that many emotions, which was so honest. I said that was that, of course. That stayed with me for a long time. I couldn't tell you how to breathe, but I'll tell you about the emotions Study there. You know, men are socialized and this was part of an important part of my doctor thesis actually was on the socialization of men and especially around the difficult, vulnerable emotions you know, like loneliness, and and and and and disappointment, and fear, and and. What has happened because of the socialization process is that all these, all these multiple, vulnerable emotions get funneled into one emotion, namely anger. And so when you find somebody, a man, who's angry, you're going to want to back up and first of all you might have to give him, you might have to teach him, a language for emotions to be able to access that stuff. We don't even have a language, like the young man said, we don't even know there were that many emotions. So what happens is you either hit the anger or you stuff it. And if you're a pastor or church worker, you know anger is not acceptable. So boom Under it, go beneath, it goes right. Well, anger's gonna be, it's gonna show up somewhere, it's gonna erupt at home. You go home, kick the cat, whatever, or the. The corollary is anger, turn inward, results in depression, sadness, or what we often like to do is withdraw, just check out, cut off emotionally right. How do I know this stuff so well? Because I have been there, man, so many times.Speaker 2:
I can't tell you, man, oh man, yeah, yeah, oh man, this has been so fun. I Would love, I would love to explore creating more space for men to To just open up and and share, and I pray that our churches, especially with our pastors and our leaders, are have, and it doesn't take a lot. Just do I have one or two guys in my world that can sit down and just ask me how's it going? Yeah, no, really, really how's it going? And Tell me about, tell me what's going on in your, in your soul, and yeah, and we would have. I have a I don't know certification and coaching, but kind of the the heavy stuff. But then a lot of times when you nail down okay, what do we really need to talk about here, rick? It does have to do with matters of the heart and I've really enjoyed this conversation today because I'm a, I'm a driven type, a Firstborn, all of that athlete still an athlete, rick. By the way, I can still move and throw and all those types of things. You know 42, I mean, I gotta say that for as long as I possibly can, right. It's like bless you so I need, I need yeah, thank you, I need men like you, rick, who are slower, more contemplative, can I'm sorry Listen. No, no, no. Your speech, your speech pattern is delightful, man, I mean just slower. We don't what we got to go do. There's not much that we have to go do. Just be with one another. And I've just enjoyed your presence today and I want to have you back on and talk more about emotional systems and More about your doctorate, because there's a lot to unpack as it relates to the socialization of men in our culture today. That Kind of downgrades men in many respects and what are the best parts of how? You know, everybody has a gifting gap, and men in general and and even then individual, how do we start to articulate man, I need the body of Christ to help me in this, in this area, and and I don't think we have the, the vulnerable conversation Very often, very naturally, the church has not been set up. It's it's stuff, it, as you said, it's hide, it's run its posture. You know, at base motion to base emotions, really, pride and fear, anger, often connected to profound, profound fear of being exposed right. Women will close with this. Women, you know, a fear not being enough in comparison to other other women. Men generally fear and love to get your thoughts, Maybe on this as we close down. Men generally fear being seen a lot about being seen our exterior as weak or inadequate In any respects, if you had the experiences along those lines. Differences between men and women, rick.Speaker 3:
Oh, you're right that we're talking about a whole new session, right? I mean, I forget the gentleman's name, but you've probably seen this on YouTube when he talks about the, the women's brain and a man's brain. And then the man's brain has all these little drawers and you take one drawer out at a time. Don't take two out, take one. And we even have a drawer called our nothing box and we'll go every time if given the chance, right? But the women's brain and he said he shows that it's absolutely interconnected with everything. You know, you touch one, you pull on one. Be careful what you're pulling on, man, because you pull on one, you're gonna get a lot of other strings. That's just a great place to start right there. You have to know some basic things like that In our culture, yeah, gonna miss each other, and and we?Speaker 2:
we don't talk about the differences, how we're fearfully and wonderfully made male and female, and how our brains are radically, radically different. And different is beautiful and and good. So this has been so much fun, rick. Thank you for your generosity of time and your depth and your wisdom. That people want to connect with you, rick. How can they do so?Speaker 3:
I Very happy to to visit with people in a variety of ways, but a good starting point is my, my email, and it's MT317, as in Matthew 317, nice, and I've had that for a long time. Now you're gonna go look in, yeah, at SBC global net. I.Speaker 2:
Think it was the. Is it the baptism and the temptation of Jesus in?Speaker 3:
baptism, yeah. And the voice of the Father in heaven said beloved son you my. Loving son. My first book was called I love you, son what every boy and man needs to hear and it was based around that theme.Speaker 2:
The identity marker, the declaration of Jesus needed his father to tell him how much he was loved. How much more so do we? How much more so do we? Yeah, so good. This is the American Reformation podcast, sharing its carrying. Please like, subscribe, comment, wherever it is you take in podcasts and we promise to have leaders, lovers of the Lord Jesus and those who have been loved by him, like Rick, dr Rick Meyer, back with us soon, soon, soon. It will be wonderful. We'll see you next week on American Reformation. Thanks so much, rick. Thank you.