The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
Leadership: Learn from experts across diverse fields as we explore how their insights can shape and sustain a healthy culture in the local church and beyond. Over 60% of listeners expressed a desire for practical discussions on cultivating thriving environments—and that's exactly what these conversations will deliver.
Learn: Engage in deep theological discussions with scholars who illuminate how Christ is revealed on every page of Scripture. Together, we’ll bridge theology to the realities of a post-Christian America, ensuring practical application for today’s world. This segment aligns closely with the themes of the American Reformation Podcast and resonates with the 60% of you who crave more exploration in this area.
Live: Discover healthy habits that empower leaders in all vocations to become holistically healthy. As followers of Jesus, we’re called to lead not only with faith but also with physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
Join Tim Ahlman as we navigate leadership, learning, and living with purpose, so you can lead with strength, wisdom, and a Christ-centered vision.
The Tim Ahlman Podcast
Fostering Kingdom Contributors: Jason Phelps' Transformation Story
Join us for a truly enlightening conversation with Jason Phelps, the Discipling Director and Executive Team Member at Gloria Day Lutheran Church, Houston, Texas. Jason’s unique journey, from being immersed in worship arts to fostering a culture of intentional disciple-making within the church, offers profound insights on transforming church-goers into kingdom contributors.
During our chat, we explore how worship shapes the church community and varies according to context. Our dialogue takes a deep dive into the power of sharing transformation stories across different congregation sizes and how celebrating values publicly can influence a community. Jason and I also discuss how Gloria Day Lutheran Church is moving away from the consumer model and embracing the kingdom contributor model to promote a discipling culture.
As we conclude our conversation, Jason shares the essential ingredients needed to catalyze a disciple-making movement. We delve into the significance of adopting a mission-focused, outcome-focused, habit-fueled, content-flavored, and community-forged approach. Jason also addresses misconceptions about spiritual gifts, highlighting the profound connection between these gifts and the character of Christ. Join us as we unpack the concept of a fully alive life, exploring how the church can foster deep community and exert influence through our unique gifts and passions. Tune in and discover a fresh perspective on discipleship, worship, and church culture.
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here and I have a college classmate I don't know, we were maybe not the same year, but a dude that I looked up to at Concordia University, nebraska. Go Bulldogs back in the day Big time, for he didn't have the beard. If you're not watching right now, you need to check out YouTube because the beard is on point. But what he did have was a guitar and a voice in the early contemporary days. You think about contemporary worship arts back in the day.
Speaker 2:Jason, we were kind of on the front lines of that whole conversation, especially in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod at our Concordias. I've always looked up to you, man, as a passionate lover of Jesus. I love that you're in our tribe, the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, and I love what the Lord is doing in your world right now. So just let me share a little bit about who Jason Phelps is Coaches and disciples fully alive Missional disciple makers to influence the world through his everyday life. He is the Discipling Director and Executive Team Member at Gloria Day Lutheran Church in Houston, texas. That Gloria Day got to go through the year-long accelerator with Chris Greenfield. We just had so much fun growing with you guys. He's laser focused on catalyzing a movement of disciple making and, as a coach with Disciples, made an organization out of Kansas City dedicated to seeing 70,000 followers of Jesus leading 2 million yes, you heard that right 2 million friends to live more fully alive by 2040.
Speaker 2:Talk about a vision for discipleship multiplication. He's uniquely designed to add value to teams and churches through his ability to see the big picture. This is what I've experienced with you Build bridges, cast vision and pursue mastery and maximize team efforts. He obsesses over a healthy church culture we can talk about that a little bit today and helping leaders live and lead at a life-giving, sustainable pace. So the Sabbath, the rhythms of rest we love that in the ULC as well. Now this is where it gets fascinating. She's a husband to Ashley a gifted actor, musician, teacher and now NASA engineer and you heard that right and a dad to three kids ranging from eight to seven. What a joy, jason, to have you on the American Reformation podcast today, bro, welcome. Thanks for hanging with me.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, I'm absolutely thrilled to be here and it's good to see you. Yeah, so tell me your wife, NASA, what's that? That's awesome Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and she is a professional actor. When I met her and then she was teaching preschool, to pay the bills was the school admissions director, and so now we moved over to Gloria Day a couple of years ago and our church location is across the street from the space center, and so she ended up landing a job as a crew provisions engineer and she gets to work with astronauts and so, depending on who you ask, some might say that she's kind of like the astronauts mom. Anybody, all the astronauts, like anything they want to take to the International Space Station, goes through my wife and her team.
Speaker 2:So wow, that's spectacular. So thanks for doing this to me today, man. So much fun to talk Jesus with you. How are you praying for a Reformation in the American Christian Church to get us going today?
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, I think my heart burns and yearns to see regular, ordinary people stepping into their personal calling, their unique design, and moving from the temptation of being, you know, kind of showing up to church and being a part of church and seeing the staff members provide programs and you might even say goods and services to the members, and, instead of that, moving to I guess, what I might call kingdom contributors that we might all partake in the Great Commission, the priesthood of all believers, saturating our communities, neighborhoods with the gospel and good news of Jesus.
Speaker 2:That's huge man and we at the ULC man, we are all about that as well. So how did you develop your love for discipleship especially I'd love to go back to that kind of origin story, your love for worship arts and how that fanned into flame that love for deep discipleship that every man, woman, boy and girl would know and follow Jesus at a deep heart level.
Speaker 3:Right. And so I think, like for most people who know me, is kind of seeing me in a season right now where I'm not leading worship raises a few eyebrows, because I mean especially, you know, when we were going to Concordia Seward together you know I was whether I was leading praise or praying concerts at spring weekend or you know whatever it was playing bars and Lincoln, you know is it definitely raises a few eyebrows. So I have to go back. I guess I'll go back to 2007. And it was my first call in downtown Houston. I was on staff at a church doing worship and youth ministry and then it was probably a few years after that where we were developing a community within our worship service there and got invited to partner up with a disciple making organization, went through a learning community and we started to kind of develop this culture of family on mission, a culture of intentional disciple making and and and so. From there I just kind of, you know, discipleship and worship went hand in hand. In 2013, we planted a church and and we were able to kind of put language and vision and values of discipleship and mission at the constitutional and bylaw level, which you know gave us just like a very distinct DNA from the get go. You know, we we weren't changing culture. I mean, we were creating it and it was. It was really a beautiful thing. And so I think what was unique is that, you know, I was the director of worship arts at the church plant but I was discipling the band and it was a beautiful thing. That you know, with all the band members you know, is that we were my wife and I were kind of co-worship leaders although she wasn't on staff, she probably should have been but you know is that we were inviting these folks into family. You know the the band members who were, you know who are members of the congregation, and the gigging musicians that we kind of brought in, is that we had a very kind of a vast network of you know really, musicians that we could call friends and you know we just invited them into our family.
Speaker 3:And I think what was unique about kind of our, our perspective on how we, how we led, is that you know we kind of recognize that, like all Christians, all followers of Jesus, are called into the Great Commission and you kind of have this, this general calling right that we're all called to make disciples, who make disciples and and partner with Jesus and in his mission and in our everyday lives. And so I saw, you know, my vocation, which you might be able to call like my personal calling as a worship leader, is that you know, worship leader was really my, it was the conduit on how I made disciples and so, and so you know, we did that for six years in the church plant and you know, we also kind of led a missional community, multiplied missional community. I think about four or five missional communities came out of ours and which was awesome, and so it was at the church plant for about six years. And by that time you know, I was kind of I was leading discipleship kind of taster events and you know some some training with a, with a national organization, and my love for people and influence. Just I found a sweet spot in that and so so it's.
Speaker 3:It's what's really interesting is, you know, after we left the church plant, I kind of had this wilderness season for a couple years and and so I was teaching high school, I was overseeing the chapel band at Lutheran High North and so I was still involved with worship there. But then, you know, I've been a Gloria Day now for a couple years and and I was called into a position that did not incorporate worship leadership. Now, I think I I substitute every once in a while, but I'm not on the worship team. I don't have anything to do with with really worship other than my, my influence and the value that I add and but so it's, and I'll end with this is that this is a season and it's a season that's been kind of hard to to step aside from, from music and worship as a vocation.
Speaker 3:But what I'm kind of finding is that I always, you know, really over the last 10 years, is putting all my energy and skills into a one hour, maybe two hour, experience on Sundays.
Speaker 3:I'm just I'm finding I was finding myself unfulfilled with that, and and so part of that is due to just kind of my philosophy of worship is that, you know, I got to journey with a crew of worship leaders and spouses out of Kansas City with an organization called Love and War, and and it was all about becoming moving from a presentational worship leader to an incarnational worship leader and taking worship on mission, and so everything about that. You know, putting all my eggs in the Sunday basket just left me really unfulfilled. And so now you know I get to invest in people, make disciples and you know, like you kind of said in my introduction is that I'm really kind of laser focused on creating and cultivating a disciple and culture here at Gloria Day and catalyzing a movement of disciple making to the fourth generation. So and I've just kind of found that you know, developing people and multiplying leaders is just where I come alive.
Speaker 2:Hmm, talk about the role of worship in, in moving by the power of the spirit in the word follower of Jesus from consumer to contributor, because I think the prevailing model, especially in larger churches with bands and we got a lot of listeners who may be in a very small, maybe micro church or a church they feel like is is declining, you know, and they may say all we can do is traditional. We don't have anything against contemporary per se, that we should be thoughtful on how it's, how it's presented as Lutheran Christians, but it's just a hard. The wider thing, this is one of the biggest cases you can make for being wise around how contemporary worship is presented today. It's easier, I would say, in that space to sit and be just a consumer. Wow, the band was good to demand. Those guys are really, really on point.
Speaker 2:And look at, look at Jason man, he's just so gifted. I don't know if I could be and you know that's a consumer, or I, or I come then and preachers can fall in this too and I'm just sometimes, as a preacher, you're like spinning it can feel like just spin another. You know, sermon pastor, just do do the thing kind of, kind of fill that, that void in my spirit until next week that I come, come back. But man following Jesus is so much more than the hour of power, no matter how powerful, that hour is right. So how do you again landing the plane? How do you have worship connected to the consumer, to contribute or journey?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's a great question, tim, is, I mean, there's no doubt about it, that you know, gathered worship is, you know, critical and essential to the to the bride of Christ, right? And so I mean that gathering can look differently, whether it's a traditional liturgical context, a contemporary context, a small church, rural church, city church, you know, or if it's just church gathered around a table in a living room, is, you know, we'll always have the ecclesia, the gathered church. And but I think, is that, you know, worship forms us, right, how we worship, what is done in worship. Because you know the reality here, at Glory Day, right, I mean, we have, you know, I guess, probably roughly around a, you know, a thousand people on a Sunday, for Sunday, between two Sunday services, so, you know. So that is definitely something to steward well and to leverage. And, and so I think how, when I look at, regardless of the worship style, is, whether it's in a modern liturgy or a traditional liturgy or a home liturgy is what are we celebrating, what are we highlighting, what are we talking about? What's being shared, who is doing the sharing? Right, because you know, maybe, in your, you know, context, is that paid staff and pastors are the people who are, you know, on the platform and and I guess, regardless of you know kind of understanding of theology, with who can do what? I think in any context, you can share stories right, and so you know whether it's because I think what we celebrate is what will get done.
Speaker 3:What we celebrate puts on display what we value, what we celebrate publicly forms us, and so how are we sharing stories of life, transformation, of worship? How are we, how are our prayers crafted? Are we praying for breakthrough? Are we praying for multiplication? Are we, are we praying for gospel saturation in our city? Are we praying for the, for the? You know the, the business owners who are followers of Jesus, who have an incredible story of how they're representing Jesus in their workplaces. So I think honestly, like it, you know, you can take a worship service and, if you can, if you can add in stories of discipleship, leadership, mission, multiplication, gospel saturation, all those kind of things, whether it's in, you know, in a prayer and in a story man, that is a, that is a leg up to be able to, to utilize our worship gatherings to be able to, to, to assist in developing a culture of disciple making and multiplication.
Speaker 2:And stories can happen in any size congregation.
Speaker 2:You may say it's a little bit easier in a, in a smaller church because we can, more people can be known, but in a larger church too, yeah, testimonies, the power of testimony, some of them videoed, some of them live managed, shapes. It shapes a culture big time, especially toward the end of of disciples multiplying disciples. So talk about the journey of moving into disciple making at Gloria Day. Gloria Day is, if you're outside the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, a very, very well respected longstanding church. Many kind of seminal leaders that I look back on on the, the John Keeschnicks and and like a lot of people, have invested a lot at at Gloria Day. And you know it's not, it's not always easy, dan Shepman, dear friend man, it's not always easy changing maybe the, the paradigm model from the sit and get to the get and go. Right now that is going on at Gloria Day. So how's that journey of disciple making going in such a really historic church like like Gloria Day?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so thankful for Dan Shepman, our senior pastor, and stuff, and because he has been a huge supporter to be able to. I mean, he's been super patient I believe this is his 10th year as senior pastor here and and so you know we had I had a predecessor, brian Weaver, who was pastor of discipleship here, and I kind of had to pick up where he left off and he kind of paved the way beautifully and and so I got here. You know, remember my context I've been in midsize congregations, in a church plant, and this this was my first time in perhaps a larger church, and so I wanted to steward this well, and so I read a couple books because I came on staff summer of 2021. And so I read two books. The first one was Starfish and the Spirit by Lance Ford and Rob Wagner, and I love, I love that book. It's one of my favorites. That's actually how I got connected to Disciples mate, because that book is fruit from Disciples' Maids' Influence. But I knew that that book would absolutely blow up Glory Day. We did not want to do that. We wanted to be able. Our executive team and everything wanted to make sure that we steward this journey well, because my wife in a very encouraging way. She reminds me that, jason, that you are an agitator by nature and by this vision of building a discipline culture. Because, you know, glory Day, like you said, you go back to the turn of the century.
Speaker 3:In the early 2000s we had over 200 ministries and it was people from what I've heard people called it kind of like the Lutheran Disneyland, and that came with some unintended consequences of perhaps staff burnout and all other kind of stuff. And so, you know, here I am, you know this church planter, small, mid-sized congregation guy to kind of start moving from the consumer to the kingdom contributor to how do we go at a Jesus-paced life, what does it look like to be to hit the pause button before we go big or go home? What's it look like to pause, to be led by the Spirit, to go deep and to say, okay, you know, how do we think differently, how do we innovate, how is this helping us to increase our sending capacity of everyday missionaries and leaders into our community? And so kind of taking a lot of that. Well, knowing that kind of, like you know, one of the themes is to be able to steward this well, is need to embrace both and right. And so that led me to a book that I read alongside Starfish and a Spirit, called Future Church, and Future Church was written by Will Mancini and that provided something that I thought was just going to fit our culture and our vision beautifully, because what it did is it recognized that, like the seeker, sensitive, the attractional church was here where you could perhaps make a living, but you kind of lost your life in the busyness and burnout. Then on the other side you have the missional kind of movement, house church movement where you could make a life but kind of struggle to make a living. So they said, you know, we need to hold both of these. So is that and right? And so it was about both engagement and empowerment, about assimilation and multiplication. And I said that's what we're looking for. And so I led our staff through some training on what that could look like, and so that kind of gave us a little bit of a foundation to work on. And then that kind of eventually led us into partnering with Disciples Made, which gave us a system and some programs and courses that were built upon a DNA of intentional disciple making environments which came from Starfish and the Spirit. And so overall, you know, as we've been able to steward.
Speaker 3:This is the question was posed to me is from the founder of Disciples Made is do you want to go slow or do you want to die? And so which really resonated with that, this idea of both. And we don't want to blow up Glory Day, we want to honor the generations that have been here, you know, since the 1960s and so which really you know we're led into Disciples Made really beautifully, is that, for me, catalyzing a movement of disciple making to the fourth generation? For me, last year started with focusing on just a handful, a handful of guys and we had about 16 people and intentional disciple making relationships, and in this year, hopefully, we're actually multiplying that up to 50 people as we kind of step into the third generation. And so I just know, like it's patience, intentionality. It's slow. It is in the language also that because language, how we talk about things, the words we use, helps shape the paradigms which will shape the culture which will then help us to fix it and propel the mission. But it's slow, it's slow.
Speaker 2:I'm proud of you for embracing the slow journey and being as Jesus, because I can imagine there have been moments where you're like, wow, this is hard and the impatience can kind of settle in. But the Lord has given you a very wise wife and the Holy Spirit who is a patient comforter for us. And it really. How cool is it to just say man Jesus took Jesus took three years with like three dudes, 12 dudes, you know, and just he went slow. And that depth of relationship, obviously propelled by the Holy Spirit of Pentecost, is what radically changed the church.
Speaker 2:They would do whatever it took, you know, cross, whatever mountain metaphorically was necessary to accomplish the mission of Jesus. They could not help but proclaim the one who'd called them out of darkness into a marvelous light, and I would love to see nothing more than that happen for every woman and man in our congregations, all of the baptize being released toward that end. So let's talk discipleship, the five essential ingredients. Five essential ingredients of an intentional, intentional disciple making environment. I like the IDE, this is the IDE way intentional disciple making environment. Knock it out of the park there, jason. This is fun.
Speaker 3:I love it. So these are, these were highlighted for me when I, when I read Starfish and the Spirit, and, and so it brings intentionality. Hence, right, intentional disciple making. And I think why that's key is because you know it's it's. It's wrong to say that. You know we haven't been making disciples, you know, for hundreds of years, right, but where I think we found church culture is we kind of have found ourselves in what we might call accidental disciple making, non intentional disciple making, happenstance disciple making.
Speaker 3:You know, because we have good intentions, we love Jesus, we share our faith, we rub off on one another. But when we talk about catalyzing a movement and, you know, and raising up kingdom contributors to make a kingdom impact, man, there there should be some intentionality. And plus, I mean honestly, like when I I got to preach on, you know, the parable of the talents you know, a few weeks ago, and, like man, jesus wants a good investment, our good return on his investment, right, and you know, and there's, you know we want to hear well done, good and faithful servant. I don't know whether I have a day left, a minute left, 10 years left or you know however many years left. And so how do we make the most of our time here, and this idea of intentional disciple making environment helps us to answer that question. You know well, first and foremost it's like what is a disciple? How do you define it, how does your church define it? And if I were to ask you you know how do you define what a disciple is then I'll ask you like, well, how do you make one? And I think most people you know whether it's a staff person or even you know just a, just an ordinary person in our church, right, like they usually they don't know.
Speaker 3:So this is the beauty of these five ingredients, and I think the best way to describe it is in the image of a table. My friend Craig is also a coach for disciples made up in North Texas, and this is the image that he uses. Is that you have the table top and that table top is mission Okay, which is the first. You know. I'll say the first ingredient here is mission fixated, all right. And that table is held up by four legs, four essential legs. That first leg is outcome focused, the second leg is habit fueled, the third leg is content flavored and the fourth leg is community forged, all right. So those four legs are necessary to help us fixate on mission, to partner with Jesus and mission, and it's going to help us be intentional, and so I can quickly walk through just kind of what those four are. So, when we think about outcome, focused right, so that's like that's what our focus is.
Speaker 3:This is, this is what we are doing and in particular, at Gloria Day and with disciples made, is we focus on two outcomes. That is growing in our character, that is our being, it's our becoming more like Jesus and it's exemplified by the fruit of the spirit in Galatians 5 love, joy, peace, patience, all the way to self control. You know, because those nine fruit of the spirit that Paul makes us aware of, really, I mean, that's, that's Jesus's character, right, so we focus on character and then we also focus on the outcome of personal calling, recognizing that you know this is the doing, you know becoming like Jesus, doing the things of Jesus, right, like he says in John 14, 12,. You know that we will do the things that Jesus did and even greater things, which is absolutely a wild statement, and so, but that's exhibited by the gifts of the spirit. You know whether it's first. You know first, corinthians, romans, all of these things, and so we talk about our spiritual gifts, our natural gifts and abilities, the things that we're passionate about.
Speaker 3:I am a huge Apes fan, ephesians four. We call that influencing style, that like for me, like whether it's, you know, kind of like an apostolic shepherd, if you will, that like I can't help but bring that style to the table in any meeting that I have right. And so we got, you know, gifts of the spirit, fruits of the spirit, and we can actually. This is what's cool, so, for all all the leaders who are listening to this, or, you know, board of elders or board of directors, is that we can actually put metrics to this, because you know, so often, you know, talk about, you know this, like you know. Okay, we know that like we want, we want to start measuring more than, like you know, butts, bucks and whatever else, right.
Speaker 3:And so what's cool is we have this, what we call them my impact equation, and so it's character times, calling equals impact. And so, as, as I'm intentionally making disciples, helping them focus on these outcomes of character, and calling that as they grow in character and as they grow in calling, you can multiply those with the self assessment that we use. And you know, and now, of a sudden, we can actually have some measurements based upon some self assessment just super self assessments and so so it actually is able to put a really simple number through a really simple self assessment throughout somebody's intentional disciple making journey and actually get some numbers. And what's wild is through at least through disciples made intentional disciple making environments is that we're seeing like a five over 500% increase in Kingdom impact, and which is absolutely wild. So that's we talk about, you know, focusing on the outcomes. We're focused on developing a character and calling, becoming more like Jesus and doing the things that Jesus did.
Speaker 2:Dude. So let's pause. Let's pause right there. Man, this is so, this is so huge. I've heard, been a pastor now 15 years.
Speaker 2:You can't measure discipleship, you observe it, but I mean to a character. Times calling equals impact. How is that so? It's a self assessment. You had me an assessment here too, because of companies based theological education, assessment from the student, from the student's perspective, as well as a mentor team. A lot of all of our students have that sort of a mentor team and there was an agreed upon number, if you will around. Basically that the character, the being of Christ, as well as the, the content, the knowing of who Christ is, and sometimes there can be an imbalance maybe in theological formation around the, the knowing, know, its character, but then it is the craft, it is the doing or, like you said, that personal calling. There's a lot of, a lot of overlap there. So one praise be to God for disciples made love it, love it, love it so good as well. As I'd like to know more is there? Are there other people? Obviously there are here, but other people coming alongside on that journey of discipleship assessment, say more there, yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's actually so. What's cool about disciples made is that they they offer like cohorts, right, and their structure coat cohorts, and it brings in content. And then we also we talk about, like these habits to outcomes, all this kind of stuff. And so part of the journey is, you know, the first journey is followers made. It's an IDE, and so we have built in at the beginning and like a midpoint at the end, these self assessments, and so you know, you take it to get a baseline and it's not, you know, it's not good, bad, it's just a reality of whatever number you get, most people score super low, you know, and that's okay because it's about growth, not good or bad. And you know how, how good of a Christian you are, and so you know.
Speaker 3:So, like, when you take the the my impact assessment, you know you, you answer 10 questions. You know the first one's going to be about love. Do I love people? How am I doing Loving people unconditionally? You know. The next one like, am I experiencing joy on a daily basis? Am I smiling? I mean, it can be a question like that, right, you know. And then another one might be like, am I able to be myself even when I'm around people who aren't following Jesus, right, you know, some more character stuff. And then you know, you know, and it goes throughout all the list of the fruit of the spirit.
Speaker 3:And then what's cool is, you know some people might, you know, might make some people uncomfortable, I guess. But, like you know, we're also setting goals. So I know, for me, like when I started the journey I was leading these dudes, is that I know that sometimes I can be more gentle with my words, with my kids, when I'm upset, when they're grinding my gears right. So I set, I set a goal. I said, you know, I want to. I want to grow and be more gentle with my kids. You know, when I start to get upset, you know, can I make sure that I can be firm and I can discipline love without getting mean in my voice, you know? And so when I started to notice is like what that did having that goal of allowing the spirit to develop and awaken that gift of gentleness in me is that it started to infiltrate my prayer life every day.
Speaker 3:I was aware of it. I was conscious of it now and I started this, you know, and that just continues throughout the rest of the journey. And so then you get to the calling stuff. You know it's a lot of. It's about like, am I using my spiritual gifts? Do I know my spiritual gifts? Do I remember them? Did I, you know, am I exercising them? And all that kind of stuff, and just being conscious Because you know, I talked to a lot of people too, like you know that even other church workers, they may or may not be aware of their spiritual gifts and if they are, are they intentionally using them?
Speaker 3:Because I think this is the next step too is like do you allow your spiritual gifts to actually serve as a filter for what you do and don't do? Because, like Ephesians 2, 10, you know, we know that we're God's masterpiece and that he designed good works in advance for us to do so, like, if God has us, let's just say, a supernatural mission for us, a personal calling for us, and he gave us spiritual gifts and an influencing style, and Ephesians 4, chances are, all of that is meant to go together. So, like you know, it's so anyhow, like I just I love talking about it because you know, is that to use your spiritual gifts intentionally. What a blessing to the world to be able to find your like your God given sweet spot. Because I think, like you know, you talk about fulfillment and there's going to be fulfillment and making a difference in the world. I can only imagine that there'll be a huge difference made and fulfillment all the way around.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love this, love this. Let's talk about spiritual gifts a little bit more and how they're connected to the fruit of the spirit. I think there's a through, a thread here to pull on. I don't get to choose. Let's just talk through the spirit. I don't get to choose, like today I'm going to be, I'm beloved, but self control, patience, no, I don't need that, no, no, no, like it is the fruit of the spirit, all of these get like that is the character of Christ. I love how you said that this is the character of Christ, now that Christ makes us his dwelling place. If there is one area I'm struggling self control, but maybe joy is there, but I have impulse control, or whatever the issues. You know we need to be in discipling relationships around that. And then that discipling relationship then as we talk, character, the character of Christ connected through the spirit. How intimately that is connected to the awakening of the unique gifts.
Speaker 2:You know, jason, there are some in our denomination and in some denominations they say we shouldn't even talk about unique, unique gifting at all and I don't really get that. So what is the rebuttal you make to people who say spiritual gifts, that's what modern day evangelicals kind of focus on. We shouldn't we shouldn't really be talking about that. That puts the onus this is probably the theology right that puts the onus on on self rather than on on God, and maybe even elevating the ego to say I have these leadership gifts and oh, I have this apostolic gifts. You know what? What do you say to someone who wants to challenge, even talking about spiritual gifts in that way?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, if I can be honest, I've never had anybody yet challenged that at all, and but you know, I mean when you, when you look at at least I would just say, if you know, if I was, I mean it's right there in scripture and we know that.
Speaker 3:You know that first Corinthians, we have these gifts and that you know in Romans these things, and then Ephesians these roles. And now I understand that sometimes there might be probably with Ephesians, for for I've encountered, I've encountered difference, differing theologies and thoughts, definitely on Ephesians 4. So you can take that with the grain of salt, but I think you know regardless, is that can we admit that we are the priest of all believers, that we've been chosen, that our identity can go back to the Abrahamic covenant, that in Genesis 12, where you know is that we are called to be a blessing to the world, and so you know, and we are called to make disciples, and so we have these gifts. I mean it's obviously, like you know, you kind of mentioned this ego of being built up, that like, well, I have these gifts and all this kind of stuff is like, well, then, that's a character issue, right, that you need to work on.
Speaker 2:It goes right back, that's right.
Speaker 3:If you're, if you're having this, this ego because I love the acronym that I, that I just read in the book lead like Jesus by Ken Blanchard, which is was absolutely amazing and it stands for edging God out, you know, and so you know just this huge understanding that we are not called to lord over people, but we are called to to humble ourselves like Jesus and to be servant leaders and and to make sure we're not edging God out with either pride or fear. I mean, that's a kind of a whole, a whole separate kind of, you know, like conversation and stuff. But but yeah, so I don't know if you want to follow that question or want to circle that
Speaker 2:ego, other habits, the two other habits that I'm just super eager to share to yeah, I want to get to the four legs, that we're going to get there, but ego edging, edging God out man. We ought to, we ought to write that down and that is that is what pride does. It is what sin, in its essence, does so so good. Let's get into habits. Two key habits. We've got outcome focus these are the four legs habit we're going to get to content and community. Talk about those two habits, jason.
Speaker 3:Awesome. So the second ingredient or so we got mission fixated and we've talked about outcome focus the next one is habit fuel. This is what I love, so, when we talk about helping people move from consumers to kingdom contributors, is that we want to help them, you know, become self feeders and self leaders, which I think, a lot of times, you know, we, you know, with all the best intentions is that the church culture sets us up, that we go to a Bible study to learn, we go to worship, you know, to receive and to gather, and we're always expecting, you know, the church to provide these goods and services for us, because we don't know how to hear the voice of Jesus and we don't recognize that we have a personal calling and so so, throughout, you know, in an intentional disciple making journey and environment, is that we want to build spiritual habits. And so because, oftentimes right, I mean, you know, your typical Bible study or small group tends to be focused on the content. So this, this doesn't, this doesn't mean that, like, because we're focused on the outcomes, that we're not focused on scripture, because that's actually built into the daily habit. So so, you know, the people that you know that I'm discipling is like we're we're reading a chapter of the Bible a day and that we're also responding, and journaling is the other habit.
Speaker 3:So we got habit of Bible engagement, hearing the voice of Jesus, and then also we got journaling, which is great because it helps people put the words of Jesus into practice. To start to hear the voice of the Good Shepherd, you know, because, like there's like four times in John, chapter 10, where Jesus says you know my sheep know my voice and I'm the Good Shepherd, they know me right. And so we answer these questions is like we write an I believe and an I will statement that, after I've engaged with scripture, this is, this is what I believe Jesus is teaching me. And then, based on what Jesus is teaching me, I will dot, dot, dot. I will do this this week. So we're actually putting the words of Jesus into practice, like the man who built the house upon the rock right. And so now we're actually this is a great quote. So so I oversee men's ministry as well. Right, and oftentimes in men's ministry we talk about iron, sharpening iron. Okay, it's all over men's ministry. Very, very yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, is that Brian Phipps, founder of disciples, made. It says this he says iron sharpening iron shouldn't sound like two marshmallows bumping up against each other. I love that. Like you know, that's what it could be is like you know, you just want to get together and talk and all this kind of stuff, but like when we are hearing the words of Jesus putting them into practice, right, and so we've perhaps set some calling goals, some character goals.
Speaker 3:Now we have, you know, we're also developing this habit of peer accountability, and I've been a part of unhealthy accountability groups where there's shame, right, but I love uplifting challenge. Where we are, we are affirming, we are cheerleading, we are championing people and holding them accountable, but it's always, always from an affirming and uplifting posture out of love, and, and so I mean there's some other habits in there, right, but but all of those daily habits are forming us so that, as we go in our everyday life, we are now able to stay in step with the spirit, we are able to pray continuously, because we're also. One of the habits is listening prayer, allowing Jesus to speak into us, speak over us, remind us of who we are, reveal to us the things he might have for us today and and so now, as you know, disciples are being raised up, being able to hear the voice of Jesus, respond and obedience, engage with scripture, and they have, perhaps like an I then I will statement is like man, we got these self feeders and self leaders and kingdom contributors who aren't waiting on staff members like me to put a program together. So that's how it fueled, and the last one, or the last two, and I'll go through these quickly is content flavored. So in our disciple making journeys, you know, we do supplement with books, incredible books like Prodigal God from Tim Keller, hero Maker from Dave Ferguson and some other books, and but those aren't the focus of the journey. Those are all meant to support the outcomes of growing in character and calling, and the last one is community forged right.
Speaker 3:We got to do this together and what's interesting is I think this also is a differentiator is that Jesus, I don't see many places in scripture, if at all, where he's actually intentionally discipling others one on one. Not that that's a bad thing, but Jesus, you know, perhaps spent most time with the 12, definitely a lot of intimate time with Peter, james and John, and he did spend time with the crowds and but when he did, those are always training grounds for his disciples as well as kind of his, his apprentices and whatnot. And so here's one other differentiator and I'll kind of I'll end here is that discipleship is more about becoming than just about learning. You know, I think oftentimes Bible studies can be about, you know, learning more, which then there's an intended unintended consequence to that, that the more we learn and if we're not putting the words of Jesus into practice and we just keep learning, we won't actually experience transformation. Because when you start to get into, like neuro theology and actually how God wired our brains to change it, actually you need action. To start to rewire our brains and get into the executive functioning, is that you need the action and the obedience portion of it, saying yes to Jesus, to actually be transformed. So what ends up happening is you end up having now a bigger and bigger and bigger gap, because you're learning more but you're not changing and now all of a sudden you're experiencing shame. So so that's one thing.
Speaker 3:And then community is always a byproduct of discipleship, always. I think sometimes this is where small groups can get into trouble a little bit, because you start with community and then if you want to start living life on mission and making disciples and raising up leaders. It kind of it's a breach of contract, you know, because people that's not what they signed up for. They signed up for community. So if you start with community sometimes you can God willing, you know kind of get disciples. But when you start with disciple making and mission boy, you're always going to get community and you're going to get people who, who are hungry and and that kind of thing. So community is always a beautiful byproduct of intentional disciple making.
Speaker 2:So beautiful. Thank you for sharing. And disciples made sounds sounds fantastic. What would? We got a number of people in Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and we can be in our silos, and I hear some of the objections already to such an approach. How do you keep this from becoming discipleship, from becoming legalistic? You know, you must, you do these things, you do these things, and I think that's one of the big, big complaints from confessing Lutheran Christians is is you can't measure discipleship, because it's all the work of the Holy Spirit, and even trying to even put any sort of framework maybe even hampers the spirit, you know, and and could could lead toward an abuse of respective gifts and etc. And I I already know the answer to that, but I'd just love to hear your, your perspective toward the discipleship legalism conversation.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and because you know, I mean discipleship, it is, it is the, the application right, it ties in with sanctification. And I mean, first and foremost, is that our identity is not earned right. Saying yes to Jesus and you know, and in heating Jesus's words in John 1415, you know, because he does say like if you love me, you'll obey my commands right.
Speaker 3:So like we have to wrestle with that and I think there is like you, kind of walk I always end up kind of walking this line with the third use of the law. But I think we always have to remember that, like, our identity is God's sons and daughters, is nothing but a free gift of grace. And this and so when we, you know, when we have words of Jesus, like if you love me, you'll obey me, is that all flows from, first and foremost, our identity. That was a gift and that is. That is an important, important differentiation to make is that we do not earn our identity. None of this is about earning. It's all in response to what God has first done for us. And so, you know, when we first recognize that, first and foremost, and recognizing that all of this discipleship and obedience to Jesus and saying yes and putting the His words into practice flows from our identity and not to earn it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's that's so good Talk about. I think I think there's a major opportunity for the church right now because lonely loneliness is an epidemic that people would move from consumer to contributor, but that that community, this deep sense of abiding community as a church goes on mission, should be, should be our fuel, our habit fuel and people checking in on that. I love that. So talk about intimacy and influence instead of approval and control. The church can often especially I won't talk synodical stuff here, the church was very synod, but a lot of it is around approval and and control just came out of the Synod Convention, right Rather than intimacy of relationship with God, self, others and then that respective influence that flows out of that intimacy with with Christ. Talk about that, jason.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'll be honest, there's, it can act, it can even go beyond approval and control, which I'll get to, and so we talk about intimacy and influence. Really, that stems from from John 1010, we got Genesis 128. And and and so for us at Gloria Day, as well as disciples made, is all of disciple making is about John 1010. It's about recognizing that that the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy this fully alive life. And Jesus said I came that you might have life and have it to the full right, this abundant life, where this is not prosperity, gospel, right? Because so the question is is like, what does it look like to live fully alive in the deepest, darkest parts of your life, or when you've lost it all, that you still have the fruit of the Spirit, that you still are intimately known by God in that intimate relationship, and then you're still Utilizing your gifts and passions and your story to influence the world and so so with fully alive Is all of that is really just, it is the big, it is the meat on the bones of Disciple-making. And so you know, when we look at disciples made, you know, 2040 mission that you read at the very beginning is to develop, you know 70,000 disciple makers and to be able to, to pour into and invest in disciple love on 2 million Right friends who can become fully alive. And so this goes back right to Genesis that we know that Adam and Eve walked in the garden with God. They were fully known, fully loved, no shame whatsoever. They were completely united in perfect union and communion and so. But we know right that that that was lost. The thief came in and deceived them, and we know that soon in the world, right. So we have intimacy there. Then we also look at Genesis 128, where you know Adam and Eve were told to be fruitful, to multiply, to fill the earth, to subdue it, to govern it, to rule it, to bless it, to steward it, and so so we can take from Genesis intimacy and influence. And that's really what it means to be fully alive Is that you're wholly intimate and you're utilizing your influence to bless the world and to make this world a little bit more like heaven. So we know that the thief comes in and you know Adam and Eve, right, and they're kicked out of the garden.
Speaker 3:Intimacy was lost, influence was lost, and what ends up happening is, when we look at our lives, right, we can see that when we're not a, when we don't know God, when we don't know we're loved by God, when we don't have that intimate relationship, we then kind of like fill our life with, like the praise and the adoration from other people, approval, right, influence, when we kind of succumb to Satan's lies with that is, is that we kind of confuse our influence or we don't know our calling. Is that then that can start to resemble needing control right, which also stems from a lack of intimacy or unhealthiness. And so we take these two beautiful things, intimacy and influence, we settle for Approval and control. And then here's the next step, though, when let's just say, would say, like you know, has some power in your life, approval can actually start to seep in to, to coercion, and it's sex, right, I mean, you know, you look at all this kind of stuff and it's just like you know, you look at, like you know I don't want to say the worst of the worst, right, because like we're all the worst of centers and all this kind of stuff, but it can result in that. And then you know the influence, you know it can go to control, but then, but then man, it goes to like power, and so really, all this can boil down to like the worst of the world. Like you know, you talk about like leaders who are far, far far from Jesus. What do they care about? What do they do? But it's sex and power, right, and all of this stuff is Brian Phipps lays out beautifully in his book fully alive, which he goes into a very in-depth, very readable theological discussion with this whole idea about, about being fully alive, and, and the beautiful thing is is that Jesus came to restore that for us and you know.
Speaker 3:And so Jesus came to restore the fully alive life and we know now it's not as perfection, right, but when he comes again to make all things new, boy, that's when living fully alive will be perfected. So now, as we bless the world, you know, and you know our disciple and start making disciples and stuff, is that we get to live more and more and experience just these Glimpses and the beauty of this fully alive life.
Speaker 2:So yes, yes, dude, jason. This has been so much fun. Last question what's your goal for? Maximum kingdom Impact, god's goal for you and making life on earth. I love how you say this, as it is in heaven. Just riff on this for our closing time. This has been great, jason.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, you know, for me is that I Want to, I want to walk with Jesus, I want to know Jesus, I want to be with Jesus, I want to be a man, a husband, a father, a friend, a leader, a Kingdom contributor myself that just brings depth and a whole lot of love and peace Into all my spheres of influence and just add value to people's life, that perhaps some way, somehow, that they're able to experience the love of Jesus through me and my family. I'm still on a journey, you know, even though I, you know I talk about this stuff all the time, about exploring my personal calling. Right, you know, and I hope that there's a time because, like you know, I've been dude, I've been leading worship since, since I was like 14, 15, you know I was writing songs at 16. I was leading worship at like five different youth groups and five different churches by senior year of high school.
Speaker 3:I've released albums and I've been, you know, as a worship leader for over 20 years and and so you know, so like I'm sure there will be another season where I'll step back in to that role in a different context, and so, you know, so kind of like, it's like a big treasure hunt. It's a big expedition that I know my. I know my spiritual gifts, I know my passions and, as I live with intentionality of making disciples and living life on mission, developing and multiplying people that you know, I'm taking a stroll through the good works that God has designed for me Long before the world was even created, and that's fun as I go about like keeping my eyes and ears open, lord.
Speaker 3:How can I bless somebody today? And he's got somebody new, somebody old, a new thing to do and that makes life exciting. And and of course too is, you know, here at glory day. You know is for the first time in my life and leadership, I want to see, and I'm confident to see, a movement of disciple making take place here in a large, prevailing model LCMS congregation. That's never been done before, to have four generations of disciple makers just through my simple small steps of obedience and Kind of put in my stake in the ground.
Speaker 2:So Dude, you're living that fully alive life right now. Jesus is your head, the joy of the Lord is your strength and it's a divine adventure that he has called you into Jason, and that's that's the way I feel as well, and I just love. Yeah, I got so much to learn. Why do I do these podcasts? Because I got a whole lot to learn from amazing leaders like yourself. So I just pray the Lord continues to fan into flame. Love, joy, peace, all of the fruit of the spirit in your life, that that, your sense of that calling, connected to a deeper, deeper sense of community. I'm happy to be on the sidelines watching you. I'm on the come, on the field, but as I look at your life, just on the sidelines, just cheering you on love and encouraging you because the work that you're getting after Not just because I focus a lot on leadership, right and pastoral shortfalls and things like that, but not that every woman and man, girl and boy, would know their unique calling, centered in their baptismal identity, and that that they would go out and love and care for their neighbor. And we can have what I hear In this conversation today. We can have intention as we do that and that's a. That's a beautiful thing. It doesn't just have to organically happen. No, no, no. I either can be some intention, but that does require leaders like yourself kind of stepping out and into various contexts, like glory day. Just shout out to Dan Chapman and the whole congregation there at glory day you are a Model congregation I think of. I think of you know Paul referring to a number of different churches. Right, I Remember the church collective in Houston, as well as the church specific in glory a day, with fondness in my heart and hold you guys up as a, as a real kingdom, expanding model right now in this diverse, secular, post-christian, whatever you want to call it day and age in which we, which we find ourselves. This has been so much fun.
Speaker 2:Any closing comments, jason?
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, I mean, for us at glory day, I mean there's obviously there's so much more to talk about. But you know, just kind of working with you, so thankful for the United Leadership Collective, you know we were able to journey with you guys to help us bring clarity, which, would you know, which really helped us result in what we call the glory day way, which helps people kind of move from Encountering Jesus all the way to be a multiplying disciple maker and kingdom leader and ministry leader and stuff like that and so, and that was just an absolute joy and a huge help and a tool for us to bring clarity To, to really kind of to cultivate this movement of disciple making. And so huge Thank you to you and your team as well, which was just, is just absolutely invaluable to us here in our little corner of Houston.
Speaker 2:Praise God, man, and just a little teaser. We're actually because the accelerator for churches to set aside the amount of time and money we realize is a barrier, especially for a lot of smaller congregations, and so we're actually putting it on think ethic and online platform. It's just about ready to be released, very, very inexpensive, so that individuals can go on that journey and we're here to come alongside them and coaching and the like. But, yeah, a lot, of, a lot of video, flip classroom kind of content ready to come out on that think ethic platform. So be watching for that United leadership org to subscribe to our emails. This has been so much fun. If people want to connect with you, jason, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, jason Phelps. Calm, you can type in my name on most social media platforms. Email j felps at Gdlcorg.
Speaker 2:This is the one and only Jason ph fat he's fat, yeah, ph felps Phelps. This has been so much fun sharing is Karen, please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in podcast. This is the American Reformation podcast will continue to have Kingdom expanding. Multiplying Conversations with people within the Lutheran Church was in it, as well as those outside of it continue to run With the fuel of the Holy Spirit Every single day. Jason, I am better because you're my friend. We'll see you next time on on American Reformation. Thanks so much, jason, thanks.