Navigating Faith and Politics with Ray Keating

Ready to challenge your perspective on faith, politics, and economy? Join us as we sit down and converse with the versatile Ray Keating, an acclaimed author, economist, and entrepreneur, who offers us a deep dive into the American Christian Church landscape, drawing from his Lutheran roots. Ray navigates through historical figures like Martin Luther and the Roman Catholic Church while sharing insights into his creative process.

Prepare to embrace a riveting discussion on the intersection of faith and politics, where Ray astutely talks about the role of the church in government and the importance of connecting Christian fiction to real-life scenarios. Our conversation further traverses into the world of commerce, where Keating lays out his view on the future of the American economy, emphasizing the significance of free trade and the potential of our churches to foster creativity and risk-taking to shape a prosperous economic future.

In the concluding segment of our chat, Ray stirs a thought-provoking conversation around church growth, the power of storytelling in sharing the gospel, and the necessity of a contemporary Lutheran theological formation that accommodates today's diverse cultural and demographic shifts. He emphasizes the imperative of the Christian faith in our everyday lives, the transformative power of prayer, and the responsibility of the church to be a robust leader in today's evolving society. Come, be a part of this enlightening discussion to expand your horizons on faith and life.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.

Speaker 2: 0:36

Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray, wherever you're taking this in, that the joy of the Lord is your strength. Every single day is a gift from Jesus and I am gifted, blessed, overwhelmingly grateful to get to hang out with a new friend, an author, an economist, a nonfiction author, podcaster, columnist and an entrepreneur. His name is Ray Keating. At this point, keating has penned 18 pastor Stephen Grant thrillers, and one of those that I'm taking in right now is called Vatican Shadows. We're going to talk about this a little bit today. His first novel was called War your Monk. It came out. How many years ago now did you come out with War your Monk? And then this series?

Speaker 2: 1:21

Ray 2010 was when I published War your Monk 2010. Oh my goodness. He also has nonfiction books, like the Lutheran Planner I'm fascinated about this the To Do List solution and the Weekly Economist 52 short reads that you could think like an economist. We're going to talk about economists and your Lutheran story, as well as some of your Roman Catholic background. So first question on the American Reformation Podcast is as you look at the landscape of the church today, ray and I know you're a historian, I was a history major in college myself we don't, I think a lot of times we have this myopic, very short, narrow view of ourselves, but as a Christian, we have this expansive view. There's a God who created us, who loved us enough to redeem us in his Son and is coming back to make all things new. We find ourselves in a very interesting place right now in the American Christian Church. So, as you look at the American Christian Church, ray a 30,000 foot view how are you praying for Reformation, brother? Thanks so much for being with me today.

Speaker 3: 2:28

Oh, happy to be here. I guess 30,000 foot view in terms of what I'm praying for is that we are confident in the world. There are a lot of things that are, you know, in the culture, all sorts of things that we're dealing with. The church has always dealt with this stuff, you know, varying in different ways, but I hope that we go into the world in a confident way. Looking outward, obviously we have to take care of ourselves inward, but I get concerned when we get too inward looking. So I hope that we are outward looking. I hope the church itself.

Speaker 3: 3:08

Listen, if you look at my books, you know that I have Lutherans, I have Catholics, I have Anglicans. So I do believe in ecumenism, but a substantive way, right? I came across a quote recently. John Plus was writing about Hermann Sasse and he was saying that Sasse was involved ecumenically, but in a confessional way, not in a compromising way. And I think that's a good sense in the sense that we respect each other, we treat each other civilly. We understand we're going to have differences, but there's a heck of a lot that we agree on and perhaps we should focus on taking that into the world. So I don't know, that's my 30,000 foot response to that.

Speaker 2: 3:47

Well, that's so good. So I'd love to just lean into that ecumenical posture today and I think we kind of struggle with that. We're a very I'm a Lutheran church, Missouri Synod follower of Jesus, as are you, and I think we have room to grow there. And some of the, some of the cool I mean you and I met at the LCMS convention. There's some attempts toward broadening our reach into the world and crossing into maybe other seminaries et cetera. But as you look at the story of, say, Martin Luther and the Roman Catholic Church, I'm halfway through this Vatican.

Speaker 1: 4:26

Shadows. I love it.

Speaker 2: 4:29

What were some of the ways that you think maybe Luther and even Jan Hus were maybe labeled and put into a corner that? Could Luther serve as a bridge to us, to our Catholic brother or sister, confessing the good, the bad and the ugly maybe of that part of our story to be drawn back together as one one holy Christian apostolic church, Anything connected to Luther's story and Jan Hus?

Speaker 3: 4:52

Yeah, well, yeah, there's a lot there. Somebody said that it might have been Billy Graham actually who said that the LCMS could serve as a bridge between Protestants and Catholics. That kind of fits Lutheranism and the history of Lutheranism. In a sense right, and I guess part of my response is for all the troubles that we have, I have been encouraged in recent times. For example, if you look at John Paul II on the Roman Catholic side of things, benedict, even the current Pope you know we all have disagreements, correct, right, but their commentary on Luther is far more friendly than has ever been, I think, in the history of the Roman Catholic Church. So I think those were all positive things and we just have an opportunity, hopefully, to build on that Again. We all come. You know we're all in pursuit of the truth, right, we're going to have disagreements along the way, but I take some encouragement in those comments that John Paul II, benedict XVI and so on have said about Martin Luther.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Yeah, I love it. I love it. So how did you come up with the concept of the Pastor Stephen Grant series? You're a really good writer. It's very compelling. If you've not checked out, just look up Break Eating on Amazon or wherever it is. You get books, man, there's so much good stuff. I mean growing up, maybe in the future I'm 42 right now. Maybe in the future I lean into some fiction novels. I write a lot of blogs and leadership right now, but I used to like Dean Coons. I don't read much Dean Coons anymore, but your style is very consistent with kind of a Dean Coons High action, very clear. Your use of the English language is really really strong. You don't run on a whole bunch of sentences. It's really really easy to kind of follow and it's really down to earth. I mean the characters that you portray are. I can find myself in Pastor Stephen Grant. He's way cooler than I am, by the way.

Speaker 2: 6:53

He's cooler than all of us right, he's cooler than all of us Back, so yeah, how'd you come up with that kind of storyline with Pastor Stephen Grant. Tell a little bit of that story. Sure it's interesting.

Speaker 3: 7:05

So I was a newspaper columnist for many years. For 20 plus years I wrote a weekly newspaper column. Good chunk of that was for Newsday on Long Island and Long Island Business News, before that New York City Tribune. But anyway, so I have that newspaper columnist mindset. And so a lady I've worked with in my economist life for many, many years sent to me one day hey, we've got a new priest at our parish and he used to be with the CIA. I was like that's very cool. So I filed that away.

Speaker 3: 7:37

And then later on with my Newsday column, hofstra University was having an international conference on James Bond of all things, said to my editor. Got to go cover that. He said sure, go ahead. Branded out at that time this is the abbreviate, quick version brand out at that time that Ian Fleming was the same age as I was at that conference as when the first James Bond book came out. So I took that as a sign. So I went home, I wrote the column and I started work on Warrior Monk. And for those that don't know, steven Grant is a former Navy SEAL, former CIA operative who is now a Lutheran pastor. So that's kind of where it all came from.

Speaker 2: 8:20

Well, it's wonderful, yeah, and how have you done writing a book and you're a full-time economist? As I read books like this and see people's kind of journey to do really, really creative work, I want to get behind the story of the how, like how do you discipline yourself to write so many books as well as a 40, 50-hour job as an economist? Fascinating to me, right.

Speaker 3: 8:48

Yeah, so everything I do ties into writing. Right, I write as an economist. I do work, you know, write about the economy, I write about policy issues for small businesses. You know I was a newspaper columnist for 20-plus years. I still do commentary writing. So writing is the deal and I just try to find, you know, this fiction thing.

Speaker 3: 9:10

It's interesting because when you write newspaper columns, you write policy work, analyzing the economy. You go and write novels. It's like a little vacation, it's like, oh, this is a different, you know, totally different set, mindset and genre and stuff. So it's a matter of you know. People ask when do you write? Early morning, nighttime, so on and so on. I've learned. I mean, I go through stages where sometimes it's early in the morning, sometimes it's late at night, but I've learned to write whenever I can on the fiction front. So whenever I can grab some time, I do it.

Speaker 3: 9:44

And discipline is critical when you're doing it yourself. Right, and I learned that from being a newspaper columnist. And pastors learned this you have a deadline, right. You have to write a sermon every week. You can't push it off. I couldn't push it off as a newspaper columnist, but that's a great discipline.

Speaker 3: 10:04

People sometimes hate. A lot of writers hate deadlines. I love deadlines, it makes you get things done. So, working with myself, you have to come up with little tricks to kind of stick to your own deadlines. One of the ones that I'll tell you quick.

Speaker 3: 10:18

So my wife is my editor. She has the master's degree in English literature and one of the things that I do the Kindle editions of my books. You can set it up so people can pre-order them. So if I find that I'm kind of dilly-dallying a bit with a book, I'll put it out for pre-order and put the date and then I hand it over to my wife to edit and she's like why did you do that? That's insane. So I was like it's got to be done, otherwise the project will go on and on. So you find tricks but deadlines. Whenever I talk to writers I emphasize that deadlines they're your friend and it's pro-creativity because you want to get the book out right or whatever you're writing. If you're just writing it for yourself, fine, but if you want others to read it, you have to have a deadline. You have to get it out there.

Speaker 2: 11:08

Yeah, no, that's really really good, and just finding whatever works for you. I finished my doctorate a couple three years ago and I was in the writing.

Speaker 2: 11:19

Well, thank you whatever. It was fascinating work to me. But my main editor, my first reader, Dr Trey Cox, he had to give me deadlines, or else it just wouldn't happen, Because the tyranny of the urgent, the whirlwind, just kind of catches up with you. But I found that really deep work, that last. There needs to be that sense of urgency or else it just doesn't happen. So, praise be to God, Go deeper into this topic. So what did you love about writing Vatican shadows? And you told me too in your story. You grew up Roman Catholic and then your wife brought you to the Lutheran Church in Missouri Synod. But this was kind of convergence of that kind of seminal story for yourself. So tell a little bit about Vatican shadows.

Speaker 3: 12:08

Yeah, it's actually I call it my. It's part of all of my books I write is stand-alones. So people as a reader, I hate the idea of picking up a book and having not a clue as to who these people are and what's going on. So I do write each one as a standalone. However, if you write it read of an order, there is a benefit.

Speaker 3: 12:25

So what I call my Lutheran Catholic trilogy is Warrior Monk, the Trader in Vatican Shadows. So they all kind of tie together because there's this heavy mix of Lutheranism with Roman Catholicism. The first one deals with a pope, that Warrior Monk, the very first book. He's got this idea mere Christianity takes it from CS Lewis and he's talking about how can Christians work together in opposition to some of the things that are hurting Christianity. So that's the basic there. And then I take that the Trader is a smaller book where I have Stephen Grant going to a monastery in France for just some reflection R&R time. He's there with a Catholic priest buddy of his. Something happens there, so off to the races that book goes and that leads into Vatican Shadows.

Speaker 3: 13:20

And the history aspect fascinated me. I mean we touched on it before in terms of what recent popes have said about Luther and Hassan Luther, just as a as a Reformation guy, as a Lutheran, fascinated me Also the history of the mix of on both sides, you know, the hostility, and so I just kind of I wanted to write something about that and hopefully came up with a without giving too much away. Hopefully came up with an idea that allows me to bring in those historical aspects but into, you know, hopefully an interesting thriller story and that's one of the things I'll touch on real quick is, you know, it's always different. People ask what genre are you in? And I kind of shy away a little bit from Christian fiction because there's a certain way that I think people take that and most Christian fiction and I know they're exceptions, but when you pick them up there's an earnestness to the books and the characters I find a little shallow, a little cardboardy and so on. So I always tell people listen.

Speaker 3: 14:28

The first thing I want to do is tell, hopefully, an interesting, fun story, engaging story with characters that you're going to care about. Maybe you're going to like them a lot or maybe you're going to hate them, right, but that's all part of hopefully good storytelling. And because Stephen grants a pastor, I get to put this in a setting where you know I'm able to say some things, but I always say not by hitting people over the head with a two by four. Right, it's got to be natural to the story and to the characters. So that's my objective. I don't always hit the mark, but that's what I try to do. And Vatican Shadows I had a great deal of fun mixing all of that together. Hopefully the fun story, but the history and the theology and so on.

Speaker 2: 15:13

Well, it's a thriller. If there's a category for you, you're just a lie.

Speaker 2: 15:18

Right, that's what I like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is it about? I love storytelling and the Bible leans us into this.

Speaker 2: 15:25

Like Jesus, interact with real broken people whose lives were messed up, and I think a lot of times we have this we can't say the truth about sin, like part of some of a couple of your characters. I mean, there's some sexual immorality, there's stuff that's just outright, and you kind of some of the chapters like catches it, like oh my goodness, you know, like where did we find ourselves here? You just tell the whole human human story and do it in a very suspenseful way. What is it about? Kind of Christians wanting to make sure because I think you walk this line and I think good preaching walks this line too of wanting to say things, understand an audience in a way that is not going to be disrespectful or immoral, right, or get the mind moving in a way that is not according to the things of God, and at the same time, we're doing life with real, real people who are really, really broken and really, really need Jesus. So I think that's kind of your attempt in your writing. Anything more to say to that right? No?

Speaker 3: 16:27

that's and that's what I was getting at when I said. You know, sometimes you get shallow, cardboardy characters where everybody is just really always perfect and that's not the real world by any stretch of the imagination. We're all sinners. So, yeah, so I try to. I try to get at that again without, as you said, going into an area that would be, you know, for lack of a better word. I mean, I don't say I'm prudent, but inappropriate. You know, that type of thing, listen, I've had a few people most people kind of take away what you're saying about my books but I've gotten a few email over the years were saying, well, why did you have to have that character say that harsh word or whatever, or do this?

Speaker 3: 17:08

And I said, well, because I'm trying to deal with life as it is, not as we all, you know, would like it to be necessarily right. So I'm trying to do that. I don't go overboard with things like that, certainly, but but you have to. You know, in terms of telling a story about humanity, I think you have to deal with it in full sense.

Speaker 2: 17:31

Okay, I love it. I'd love to go down and get your thoughts on government and the churches. I totally shifted topics here but the church's role in in the good and the bad and the ugly and I'm not making a political statement here but as you look at our, our government, the United States of America, just our story in general there, there seems to be a fair amount of stuff going on in the, in the shadows, that may not be according according to God's will, that may be corrupt or whatever kind of word you may want to want to use. How do you think the Christian, as we look at what's going on in the government, not just the United States, but in the world, how are we to respect it?

Speaker 2: 18:18

There's kind of two kingdom theologies here. Right, respect those that have been placed in authority over us Well, at the same times, kind of innocent as doves and wise as serpents, understanding man. There's stuff going on in the shadows that I don't think is pleasing to God. What is the role of the church? And maybe we got a lot of leaders listening in, kind of walking that that tightrope of the two kingdoms. How would? What wisdom would you give us? Right?

Speaker 3: 18:39

Yeah, that's a big question, it's huge. And politics is, you know that's you don't want to see how the sausage is made, you know that's. That's absolutely true. I mean, I've been. I've been in my policy life, you know. I've been doing that since and writing newspaper columns since the very late 80s, so I've been around this stuff a long time and politics is policy.

Speaker 3: 19:00

And, listen, I do deal with some of this in some of my novels and the trick there is to deal with, if you will, that perhaps the the nitty gritty particulars of the time, right, but some overarching bigger issues that are going on now but have always gone on. So there's a trick there, because I don't listen, I'm sick of politics at this point in my life, right, so I don't want to bring the worst of today's politics in, but there are things to be said, right, and and you know, stephen Grant's wife is an economist when did I get that from? Right, and she works in that area and so on. So, yeah, in terms of the church, this is, this is a big question, right, and I get my mind is the church should be informing and forming consciences, right, of the people in the pews. Right, helping people understand what is the gospel all about? What are the implications of the gospel, the implication and so on, and then taking out into the world, right, whether you're a dentist or you're a politician, or you're an economist or whatever, right, you should be out there reflecting that and bringing forth the gospel however you possibly can. So there are a whole host of implications.

Speaker 3: 20:15

Character comes into, comes into question with, with politics. You can, we can have all sorts of disagreements on issues, right, but and this is one of the areas where I get concerned, listen, there are. There are some very clear issues that scripture speaks to, correct, right, life and so on and so on. Where we like, okay, that's the deal we can have. Now in the public arena, we're going to have a discussion and debate because everybody does agree with us, right, so you have a civil discussion and debate.

Speaker 3: 20:43

I get concerned when some churches go beyond that right and decide they're going to weigh in on a whole host of issues where it's like listen, as a Christian, I think we're pretty free to disagree on that. Now, we might want the same endpoint, right, and this is one of the things that always frustrates me as a free market conservative, that's where I come at things. So I have a lot of people that favor a lot of government action and say, well, you don't care about people or you don't care about this. Of course I do. I became an economist because I care about people. I want to see wealth creation and see poverty alleviated, and so on. We can disagree on the process, on how we're going to get there, and that's legitimate and therefore, you know, let's have that discussion and debate.

Speaker 3: 21:24

So I always do get concerned when the church get like. You know, this is one of the things about listen. We can. I love my Roman Catholic brethren, that's where I came from. But there are certain times where the Catholic Church will make a statement on something and I'm like, why? Why are you talking about this issue, where it's just going to create division within the church for no good reason? So does that answer your question?

Speaker 2: 21:48

No, I think it. Oh yeah, beautifully. We must stick to the Word of God and as stuff goes on in the world which stuff has always been going on in the world? There's been corruption, sin, selfishness, you know, power grab, money, money laundering, all sorts of stuff Inside the church and outside. I was told my kids growing up.

Speaker 3: 22:08

I told my kids growing up remember sin never stops at the church door. And you know one of my sons he's a pastor in Chicago. That's great. My other son is a budding filmmaker. But they both, you know, they've hopefully understood that and probably my son the pastor. It's probably benefited him more because he sees that some of that negative stuff on a daily basis. Perhaps.

Speaker 2: 22:32

Yeah. So we just kind of shrug our shoulders and say sin does what sin does. It creates division from God, from us. This is why Jesus came. I really believe, ray, no matter what your vocation is, we need solid Jesus following Christians in all different vocations Not, I love Luther's work, not one above the other. We do need more church workers, by the way, to advance the cause of Christ, more men and women stepping into leadership roles to advance the cause of the local church. But the local church is God's only plan for redemption and restoration.

Speaker 2: 23:07

Today, and I think we are at our best when we're living above 30,000 feet, right, and I'm a systems guy, so you get into the balcony to see what's really going on down at the grassroots. We don't have to get into the fray of all this and that and we've got to jump on this kind of bandwagon or whatever. No, we're on the Jesus bandwagon. So as he speaks, we speak right when he says to be quiet, or it's beyond us or not connected to our respective vocation. I'm not the resident expert on the geopolitical, you know everybody's got to weigh into what's going on in Israel with Hamas and terrorist group, etc.

Speaker 3: 23:44

Okay, I trust that the Lord is in control, right, right, and he's gonna hold me and all things in the palm of his hand Right, and when you have, god is with all of us, right. So you know, and we all have our talents and our gifts and we take them into the world and we do that right. And there are people that obviously have grown in expertise in this area and you know, those are the folks that we should turn to and listen. As an economist, it always drives me crazy because everybody has an opinion on the economy and it's just like one of those things where it's like, okay, I get it, listen, let's have a fun discussion, a few beers, that's fantastic.

Speaker 3: 24:24

But you know, if you're going to weigh, you know it's one of those things that there are clergy members that kind of drive me crazy because they insist on weighing in on economics issues, right, on detailed economic issues. And I'm like I get it if we're sitting in a bar, but if you're doing that as your role in the church and you're getting it wrong because, quite frankly, you haven't studied economics to the extent that there are a few clergy members that have. You know, I don't know if you've ever read Father Robert Cerrico's stuff, but Father Robert Cerrico is a Catholic priest and an economist in a fuller sense he does great stuff because he studied it.

Speaker 3: 25:05

So good for him, right? So that's the point If you got to speak out on something you know, at least put the work in. So there you are, yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:12

I have a very the older I get. Humility is realizing how little I know Right.

Speaker 3: 25:18

Yes, learn something every day. Right, learn something every day.

Speaker 2: 25:22

I'm a theologian and I'm a leadership development culture carrying type of leader Like. I've studied a lot in those areas but I don't know what the economy is going to do in the next five to 10 years. So I'm going to ask you that question.

Speaker 1: 25:35

Where's the American economy? Just because?

Speaker 2: 25:37

you're an economist like, give us your perspective on where you think the American global economy just, we live here in America where the American economy is going in the next five to 10 years, and what are some of those markers? I'm not going to stay in my lane, I'm not bringing any of this to the pulpit, but I'm just curious to learn from you. Yeah, where are we going?

Speaker 3: 25:54

Well, there's a lot there. You know I'm an optimist, which is why I became an economist, but I'm also a realist. You know the numbers and the actual. You know economics and doing evaluation. So in the last you know, quite frankly, 15 years have been a little tough on the optimist side of me because there have been a lot of problems. We shouldn't be growing as fast as we could if we got certain things right. I think so a lot of it depends on the optimist side of things.

Speaker 3: 26:25

When I look at the American economy and I look at American entrepreneurship and people willing to go out there and take risks and take on the uncertainty and create things, that's awesome and that's the stuff that has made put the American economy where it is today right. So, and that continues. Now do I have concerns that it's not continuing at the rate that we used to in the past? Yeah, do I have other concerns about, you know, our demographics and people becoming getting older and therefore, do we have enough? You know labor markets are tight. Do we have enough workers and so on? That's a real question.

Speaker 3: 27:05

This, you know, I'm a free trader. I wrote a book called Free Trade Rocks. So when I see both parties being not so keen on free trade. That concerns me a lot and that has, you know, worries me about our economy going forward. So there, as always, pluses and minuses in the mix, right, but I do think there are things that we could do better on in terms of policy that affects the economy. That would continue us being a an entrepreneurial leader and a growth leader in the world, and that's critical. The US matters not just to us here at home, but we matter around the world, and when we're engaging and promoting freedom and free enterprise and free trade, that helps everybody. You know, listen, another country growing fast is not bad news for us. That's good for everybody. That's the whole point of free enterprise.

Speaker 2: 28:01

Yeah, that's so, so good. The reason the United States of America again very high level grew and the good and the bad and the ugly of our story was, I would say, faith, good faith, just goodwill. There was this general care for one another and then a robust work ethic, you know, and I think one way the church can play a part in this system of creating a preferred future in the economy, etc. Is just saying however God has gifted you, you know, it's all vocation, get after it, take risk, try, fail, fall, build, measure, learn right. And can we create that kind of village mentality in our local congregations where people feel free to take those risks Because God's in control and it's okay? So let's start something, let's build something. I think we should be encouraging that today, ray, yeah, go ahead, yeah.

Speaker 3: 28:59

And one thing about you know, it's one of the things that you know my mission in life in terms of an economic sense of things is you know, a lot of people assume when they hear capitalism or free enterprise, they think things, words like greed and so on and so on, I think, in terms of what actually creates success in a free enterprise economy. Right, if you are inward looking, selfish, self-centered, right, are you really going to succeed? Probably not, because you have to create value for somebody else. That's the point. Right, you have to look to others, see what they need, see what they might want. Maybe you're going to create something that they don't even know that they need or want. Right, that's one of the beauties of creativity and capitalism and a free enterprise. But the point is you actually have to be other person looking, you know, outward focused.

Speaker 3: 29:48

Now, listen in terms of your ultimate motivations. That's between you and God. Right, your conscience. You might want to just say I'm going to create something that's going to help people in this area, this area, this area, even if you're going to say, well, you know what, I want a bigger yacht, okay. Well, that's your call. But even if you want a bigger yacht, you have to provide somebody else something of value, and that's one of the greatest aspects of free enterprise is that it taps into people's, as you said, goodwill, but it also serves as a constraint, if you will, on perhaps impulses that aren't so great, and at least direct them. Yeah, I mean, listen, people are always going to do bad things. Nobody's saying that right, no system is perfect. When we get to heaven We'll be like, hey, yeah, great. But in the meantime, whether it's the church or capitalism or government, you know we're all sinners and everything's imperfect here. But what's the best we can manage? And I think the free enterprise system works pretty well.

Speaker 2: 30:46

Absolutely All right. I'm gonna pivot off that. And we're in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod and I've written and said a lot about our theology being amazing and some of our systems around maybe formation and church planting maybe needing some renovation today, and so in our context we're running some tests and raising up bivocational and co-vocational pastors. But as you look at the church, specifically the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod how would you encourage us toward a more entrepreneurial spirit? Do you think there's room for us here? Because I care. I'm a third generation LCMS pastor, I care about our church body moving into the future, that this church body be around for my grandkids or great-grandkids into the future, and I worry about the decline today and the shortages of church workers. Anything to say about this need for an entrepreneurial spirit? Ray?

Speaker 3: 31:44

Yeah, well, listen, the LCMS is my home and my son is an LCMS pastor. So this is it I mean, and I share all of your concerns and I share your love of the church. Again, nobody's perfect. No church is perfect. Let me know if you find one.

Speaker 3: 31:57

But having said all that, the economist side of me and when I get a chance to talk to some folks in various districts and so on is listen, I understand where we started. We're a very Midwestern right church, but let's just be cognizant of the demographics, and that's all I'm saying. Listen, I am a everybody has their differences. We have room for debate and discussion. You know I happen to be a liturgical Lutheran guy, right? I think that's fantastic. So the question is, though, you know I happen to live in Florida. I moved I like to help you by escaped New York and I live in Florida now. Right, I'm a caricature. Oh, a New Yorker that moved to Florida. How shocking. But you know, the county I live in is, if it's not the fastest growing county not just in Florida, in America, it's like number two. At this point, it takes me a while to get to church, quite frankly. So we need to be looking at.

Speaker 3: 32:59

Doesn't mean that you exclude, right, the parts of the country that are having a really tough time, parts of rural America that are just suffering brutally. And you know, that's a whole nother topic that we could talk about in another episode. As an economist, I'm aware of that, saw it firsthand with various aspects of church life. So it doesn't mean that you turn your back on rural America, but if you want to spread the good news, you have to go where people are at the same time correct. So I just think that it would be wonderful if we did a little more from the very top, quite frankly, and down Look at where's the growth going on and do we need to have more churches in those places.

Speaker 3: 33:42

And I know it's not easy. In so many ways it's not a, you know, like, oh, we'll just set up a church. I get it's a process, it's difficult, it's costly, but I think we need to be more serious about looking at those places where listen, people are growing and people, the area is growing. Why aren't we there? And then sometimes I heard people say, well, sure, but then you got to find out how many LCMS people are there. I'm like, okay, but here's an idea. Let's make more people, lcmsers, if you will right. So that's, that's one of the big things that when I, when you bring up that subject, that's the thing that pops into my mind immediately.

Speaker 2: 34:24

Yeah, we need church revitalization today and and contextual hospitality. I've said this many, many times and I pray it does come from the top down in the LCMS. So just recognize the diverse cultural and demographic shifts that are taking place today, because we are an aging, an aging church body and we need more. Like I'm already, I'm already planting seeds for my son to go to the seminary. We need that next generation and I think we need. We need, you know, folks between our ages, ray, who are saying man, just to kind of stem this tide, to serve churches that exist and also to plant maybe some smaller churches. A number of these churches before a pastor is like full-time are going to be served by bivocational or co-vocational pastors, and co-vocational simply means they have another job. So, ray, you're an economist, full-time economist, you're a novelist, maybe you're also a Word and Sacrament guy on the side, with what is a house church, what maybe some people would view as a house church, I think we need to plant those seeds. And then, what are the ways that solid, then Lutheran theological formation takes place?

Speaker 2: 35:30

And I haven't, I haven't, I'm a data guy too. I haven't seen where residential seminary education based on the data is the best way to do it. I was, I was. I bet your son went through residential seminary education. But I think we need to explore some creative adaptive changes for Lutheran theology, confessional Lutheran theology, to carry forward into the coming, coming generations, and we'll see what the Lord Lord does. But man, those shifts, those shifts, especially when we've done things a certain way over a certain period of time. They are not easy to make. So, oh my goodness, church people are church.

Speaker 3: 36:09

People are very good at saying no. We've always done it this way.

Speaker 2: 36:13

Amen, amen. So let's coming down the home stretch here, ray. This has been so much fun. Let's talk about unlocking the power of storytelling for sharing the gospel. And we just yesterday and I, preached a vision message. Once a year we have a. Where are we going? Where have we been? Praise be to God for where we've been. And now, where are we going as a congregation? I kind of cast this vision for three and three. If every follower of Jesus set Christ's Greenfield we're a couple thousand members here If every follower of Jesus had three conversations that led to an invitation into Word and sacrament, into the local church in the next three years, it seems reasonable. So one person a year, just pray for one, three and three years, man, how much, not just Christ's Greenfield, but with the kingdom of God, expand. We'd have to be starting new churches. We couldn't hold all the people, to be quite honest with you. So what is the power, then, of storytelling connected to evangelism today, ray? Your thoughts there?

Speaker 3: 37:12

Yeah, well, part of the reason I do what I do is to counter, if you will, what I've seen in culture, pop culture, in recent times, where you know, listen, I'm an economist, right, I'm a novelist that writes about a pastor, right, and if you look at pop culture, who usually are the bad guys? Usually it's a business owner and often it's a clergy member, right, that's not unusual. So part of what I'm doing here is I'm not just, you know, having Steven Grant, for example, be able to periodically maybe talk about an issue. Like you know, I the book, one of the under the golden dome, that novel I set at an academic conference at Notre Dame. Now, this is where I really kind of push the envelope in terms of my restrictions, because there's a subject to the conference, so I can kind of get away with them debating some ideas where normally I wouldn't. So there's that aspect of it. But I think there's also the aspect of here's a you know his group of friends. He's a Lutheran pastor, another Lutheran pastor, that's the, his co-pastor at the St Mary's Lutheran Church. And then there's a good friend of his. It's a Catholic priest, and a good friend of his that's a Episcopal, slash Anglican priest, right and it's just one of the great. It's just to kind of show, I think, who people are, that a lot of unchurched or anti-Christian people don't understand.

Speaker 3: 38:48

One of the great benefits of writing my column for Newsday on Long Island was, as long as it linked back to Long Island, I could write about anything, and I got to know a whole host of clergy members for those 12 or 13 years that I did that particular column. And it was awesome because, listen, growing up Roman Catholic, there is a little bit of that. You know a lot of it like, oh, you know, the priest is up there and you sit down in a diner and you talk to people. You get a totally different vibe and that was one of the wonderful things about when I became a Lutheran in the LCMS was that they were very down to earth pastors, very fortunate, and writing this column. I would sit in booths and diners and talk about all sorts of things maybe that I was writing on, and then we get into all sorts of other stuff sports and this and that and what people should realize is that, yeah, pastors are regular people. They have their pluses and minuses, just like the rest of us, right, but what they're doing really matters. It arguably matters the most right In terms of, you know, I know Luther has his vocation stuff and I'm firmly on board, but it's hard to think more important work than what you guys are doing. Okay, and it's so.

Speaker 3: 39:57

I'm able to, through the books, I think, humanize in the best sense the people that work in the church and then also say something about the church where, if you've had a bad experience or you have certain ideas that, yeah, listen, if you think walking into the church means that everybody's going to be super nice and everything's going to be wonderful, that's not the way the world works. And I know, listen, I wrote about the tragedy, the awful aspect of the Roman Catholic Church pedophile scandal, right, and I know what that did to a lot of people in terms of their faith. And part of what I did with my Newsday column was to kind of hopefully say, yeah, this is another, listen, we'll explore. This is horrible, but the church did the hierarchy go down the line. But it doesn't, it shouldn't affect your faith.

Speaker 3: 40:50

And I had, you know, listen, we've all also had, you know, instances where you have a controversy of the church that you're at, and I had somebody say, well, don't let this shake your faith. I was like, nope, you don't have to worry about that, because I get it. I understand who people are. So anyway, long story long answer to your is that these books hopefully communicate that you know that it isn't the church isn't a big, bad, evil thing and people clergy members aren't you know, they're normal people that are doing the best they can in a very important endeavor and that hopefully comes through in these thriller mystery stories that I write.

Speaker 2: 41:29

It comes through loud and clear. And, yeah, I think the humanizing of the office of holy ministry is really, really helpful for raising up the priesthood of all believers. And we're not lowering you, go ahead.

Speaker 3: 41:43

Yeah, and I was going to say and understand, these are thrillers, mysteries, you know, action stuff. So one of the best reviews I have had. A couple of reviewers say picture James Bond as your pastor or priest. Right, yeah, that's okay and that's what I'm writing here, but it's set in. You know, even if, listen, even if you read put aside the James Bond movies you actually read Ian Fleming's books, you find a very different James Bond in terms of what's going on in his head and the doubts that he has and the questions and so on. So, listen, it's number one. Hopefully they're fun to read. I love the idea of comparing them to James Bond and the pulpit type of thing, but it's all this other stuff as well that we're talking about.

Speaker 2: 42:24

Yeah, no, it's fantastic. Do you have plans to continue the series? Oh my goodness, yes, and actually number 19 is.

Speaker 3: 42:31

You can pre-order it now. That's Christmas Bells at St Mary's, so if you like classic Christmas movies, that comes into that story in a big way. And I've got a new series that I started, the Alliance of St Michael, which is historical fiction set in the early 1930s. So I've got more coming there and hopefully three other series that I'll be starting soon. So there's a lot, yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:59

So hopefully I can get it all done so for those of you praying praying, you get to finish it all, man. For those of you who have just been listening and not watching, I have been fascinated with your desk, your credenza right behind you and all of the. So I'm a football coach. I coach a high school, not a head coach, but an assistant coach coach DB's and running backs. I'm a college quarterback at Concordia Seward way back in the day and I see football as a major part of your story, and some, I think I see Abraham Lincoln behind. Like all the pictures behind you are quite fascinating. Tell the role and you've got a number of figurines. So sports have obviously played a major role in your life there, right?

Speaker 3: 43:41

Yeah, now it's a big sports fan growing up. Fran Tarkenton. I grew up on Long Island, but Fran Tarkenton as a kid made me a Minnesota Vikings fan. It's a long suffering. A Super Bowl may come someday. Pete Rose made me a Cincinnati Reds fan, so we had a nice surprising season this year in terms of young players taking us down to the wire. Abraham Lincoln's back. The presidents I admire most tend to be up there somewhere Ronald Reagan, abraham Lincoln, Ulysses S Grant, george Washington, calvin Coolidge those are my biggies. There's a little Calvin Coolidge bobblehead back here. How many people could say that they have a Calvin Coolidge bobblehead? I don't think that.

Speaker 1: 44:23

You want a few.

Speaker 3: 44:25

And actually there's a portrait of a picture, of a signed picture of Jack Kemp back there. Many people don't remember him but you talk about football. He was the starting quarterback for the Buffalo Bills in the AFL and then he became a congressman from New York and he ran as Bob Dole's vice presidential candidate in 1986. But the main thing about Jack Kemp is he really kind of taught free enterprise, supply side economics to Ronald Reagan. Positive guy, outward looking, conservative in the best sense of the word, optimistic, and he made a point of reaching out to everybody. He's like listen, everybody should love these ideas and he would go out of his way to communicate that. So Kemp had a big influence on my thinking in that policy, political arena as well. So those are just some of the things. I also have a supply side doll back there with Ronald Reagan smiling. So there's a lot back there.

Speaker 2: 45:21

Yeah, no, it's super, super fun. This has been so, so exciting, so engaging. So if you want Ray Keating books, you can just go to Amazon. Or is there another place that we should look to purchase your work? Amazoncom?

Speaker 3: 45:37

Also my own website, RayKeatingOnlinecom. You go there and you get all the books signed. I mentioned the Lutheran planner, so that's only available on my own website and that's just a little system I came up to kind of help me get things done. It's a year long planner and what helps me there is that I put quotes from theologians and from scripture each day, because I try to get my devotional reading on track and it stays on track and then it gets off track. So at least every day I have that in my planner. And then I was going to say also my podcast, Press Club C podcast. You can check that out. I have some fun guests and stuff like that on there.

Speaker 2: 46:17

So that's some of the ways. I was curious what makes a planner Lutheran?

Speaker 3: 46:22

It's literally just the Lutheran folks that I'm quoting in there. So yeah, and it just as I said, it's a little system. I call it the to-do-less solution. It just helps me get all these things done. But, as I said, it helps my headspace and my devotional reading because again, inevitably it's like, oh yeah, at least I got that read today.

Speaker 2: 46:46

All right, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for being a guest and a partner in the gospel. Looking forward to reading more of your work. Keep it coming and thank you for your generosity of time and your wisdom. Blessings to you and your family and your work as an economist. It's valuable, holy, holy work today, and the days are quickly approaching for Jesus to return to make all things new, very, very excited. Until that end, we have a lot of work to do and it's a good day. Go and make it a great day by the power of the Holy Spirit Living within you, sign, sealed and delivered through the waters of baptism, you are a loved child of God. Thank you for listening with us today on the American Reformation Podcast.

Speaker 3: 47:25

Thank you, ray, you're a blessing, thanks to you. Appreciate it, take care. God bless you.