The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
Leadership: Learn from experts across diverse fields as we explore how their insights can shape and sustain a healthy culture in the local church and beyond. Over 60% of listeners expressed a desire for practical discussions on cultivating thriving environments—and that's exactly what these conversations will deliver.
Learn: Engage in deep theological discussions with scholars who illuminate how Christ is revealed on every page of Scripture. Together, we’ll bridge theology to the realities of a post-Christian America, ensuring practical application for today’s world. This segment aligns closely with the themes of the American Reformation Podcast and resonates with the 60% of you who crave more exploration in this area.
Live: Discover healthy habits that empower leaders in all vocations to become holistically healthy. As followers of Jesus, we’re called to lead not only with faith but also with physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
Join Tim Ahlman as we navigate leadership, learning, and living with purpose, so you can lead with strength, wisdom, and a Christ-centered vision.
The Tim Ahlman Podcast
Exploring Bonhoeffer's Legacy: A Heart-to-Heart with Dr. Adam Clark
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Welcome Reverend Dr. Adam Clark. He's an outreach pastor at St. Peter Lutheran Church in Mishawaka, Indiana, with a keen passion for Dietrich Bonhoeffer's "The Cost of Discipleship." Together, we navigate the tough terrain of parenting, grace, discipleship, and the allure of Bonhoeffer's call to truth.
As the conversation unfolds, we probe the relationship between natural law and Christ, confronting the pitfalls of a deistic, moralistic, therapeutic mindset prevalent in the American church. We're unafraid to delve into controversial topics such as gender confusion, highlighting the urgency for the church to champion family values. We also equip you with strategies to tackle difficult conversations within the church, underlining the significance of grace, love, and the necessity of law to address unrepentant sin.
In the final stretch of our enlightening tête-à-tête, we underscore the crucial need for unity within the church. We investigate the potential of a common mind, aiding each other in overcoming blind spots. We also venture into the realm of relational health within the Lutheran Church, shining a spotlight on the positive ripples of generosity in our communities and the world. Join us, and you'll leave not just inspired, but more connected with your faith and the broader Christian community.
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American Reformation Podcast
Speaker 1Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast . We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication . We want to hear from you , make sure you comment and leave a review , wherever you're watching or listening , to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation . Lord , have your way in us . Let's dive in .
Speaker 2Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast Tim Allman here today . I pray you're ready to lean in , buckle up . This is going to be a deep conversation with Reverend Dr Adam Clark , who's an outreach pastor at St Peter Lutheran Church in Mishawaka . How do I say that name ?
Speaker 3Mishawaka , that's right , the Princess City , mishawaka .
Speaker 2The Princess City . He's a Mishawaka , indiana . He grew up in North Carolina , attended UNC , chapel Hill , then seminary in St Louis , go preachers before completing his PhD in Christian Ethics at the University of Notre Dame so cool . Along the way , he married his high school sweetheart , christie , who is now an elementary schoolteacher . They have two daughters , one just starting middle school and another in high school . We're in similar seasons of life . I've got three teenagers as well . Buckle up and hold on for the ride of a parenting , especially teenage girls . Shout out to the boys , shout out to the girls . They're all fearfully and wonderfully made , but thanks for hanging out with me today . Adam , how you doing man ?
Speaker 3I'm doing good . I'm doing good , appreciate you having me on , and you're right , those teenagers are a lot of fun too , aren't they A lot of ?
Speaker 2fun . Oh , so much fun , so many new experiences and , yeah , life is really good . So , Adam and I we met at the LCMS convention , actually in the hotel lobby , and we got to chatting and I was like whoa , this guy has quite a wealth of experience . And then your area of discipline regarding Christian ethics and your love of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and how he contributed to your PhD learning . This is going to be so much fun . But our opening question on the American Reformation Podcast just as you look , 30,000 foot view of the American Christian church how are you praying for Reformation , Adam ?
Speaker 3Well , I mean , I think we always need more grace first of all . You can't do anything else unless God is leading and God's grace is upon us . I think also remember in seminary , especially among the Lutheran church , dr Bierman , my mentor there , talked about how Lutherans had been on a starvation diet . As it regards ethics , and that was a lot of the motive for me in pursuing the path I did , and so I think that's a blessing , but an ethics that leans into grace , even as we walk up in following God's commandments as good disciples .
Speaker 2I don't know that I'd heard him say that in my day , but because what year did you graduate ? A ?
Speaker 3seminar 2007 . Okay .
Speaker 2Yeah , well , we were there . We kind of overlapped one year , but I probably forgot him saying that . I totally agree . What does that mean from a Lutheran perspective ? We got Lutherans and maybe evangelicals listening , but from a Lutheran perspective , how can we be starved for good Christian ethics ? What does that mean ?
Speaker 3Sure , I think that's part of my early fascination with Bonhoeffer . You know Bonhoeffer and discipleship . He starts that book out talking about cheap grace and the temptation of cheap grace , that everything that God calls us to just sort of disappears into God's forgiveness , boiled down , or maybe mistranslated better , as just kind of waving everything away and everything's okay and all that matters is you're forgiven and that's it . There's a temptation . You know there's no accident that even in the 16th century the Antenomians , the guys that were against the law , that was a big temptation to the Lutherans as we recovered grace and its importance for our lives . And so the risk there is just that we lose the importance of falling Jesus each and every day and then of his law guiding and directing our feet and not just accusing us but showing us what's good . Like , psalm 19 compares the law to honey in the comb , because it shows us what's really good , and God wants to lead us in that way , and so that's what we're gifted with .
Speaker 2Absolutely Bonhoeffer , especially cost of discipleship . Our team just walked through that . That could be a challenging read , especially for those of us , and when you have your Lutheran mind being formed . The primary function of the law is lies , mirror , right . So it always shows us our sin and then the sanctified life filled with the Holy Spirit , the outgrowth of grace growing more up into Jesus , who is our head , and then kind of the character of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit being present in our life . I think that's all Bonhoeffer is really inviting us toward . And as you read the cost of discipleship , you got to keep the context in mind , right ? What is he frustrated about ? Is Christians not standing up , if you will , for truth in the midst of pre-Nazi occupied Germany ? And so , yeah , how did you fall in love with the cost of discipleship in Bonhoeffer in general , adam ?
Speaker 3Oh yeah , that was a real interesting time as I was a teenager , 13 years old , and was in the adult Bible class at my church and they were reading cost of discipleship and I just remember being so struck and so challenged by what Bonhoeffer was saying there .
Speaker 3I didn't really understand it all . I got really caught up on the idea of thing of the . You know that any sin to your point about the law is accusation , even things like the smallest . You steal something from the store , you've broken the whole law all at once , right , and just this rigorous sense of how challenging all of that can be . But also that we're really , you know , we're called to follow Jesus . We're called to be completely and totally devoted and that's what I saw in . Bonhoeffer was just a guy that and especially then later as I learned some of his biography , like you say , was totally devoted to the Lord , wanted to see the Lord at work in the church in the world and to just be a part of what God was already doing , and that was a powerful call for me at age 13 .
Speaker 2So what do you say to Lutherans because this is a real time conversation today who say any good work not done in faith is a bad work , and so a lot of those cause we lean into the topic of motivation . I do remember Beerman talking , dr Beerman talking a lot about motivation and really two kinds of righteousness really help us with that right , because our motivation before God it's always gonna be soiled with sin . But does that discount the need for our neighbor to be loved and their needs met and the Christian can kind of just no , absolutely , absolutely not . So talk about the use of faith and then kind of faulty motivation , adam , especially as it relates to ethics .
Speaker 3Sure , yeah , I mean there's some truth still in the point about faith . Augustine was really big on this , recognizing as Paul says in is it Romans 15 somewhere in there Apart from faith , it's impossible to please God , right .
Speaker 3So , there's a sense in which and like your point about the two kinds of righteousness sort of , ultimately righteousness requires faith . Abraham was credited with righteousness because his faith received God's word and God's grace , and I think that's an important thing to keep in mind that there is no , at the end of the day , there is no other morality or moral call or ethics that doesn't , that's not that fullness , that's not grounded in faith . Now , at the same time , I think we can see in our own hearts , first of all , that the in and beyond , whether we can do that well . Obviously we can't do it perfectly , but even when we don't do it well , the spirit is at work in us . And so , as far as motivation goes , you gotta tap into .
Speaker 3Bonhoeffer talks about dead works of the law . The law can't make you righteous , but you can get in the way of what God is doing in the spirit . And so I think , actually , as we think about motivation , the first point is , in some ways motivation is the second step , after just getting in the way of the spirit . And what is the spirit of God up to , and allowing the spirit to ? Precisely because we'll never , we'll never do it perfectly right and we'll never have , we don't have enough of it in ourselves , okay , you don't need it in yourself , god will fill you up . And then , beyond that , yeah , I mean , how are we motivated ?
Speaker 3Well , one of the things I've been thinking about a lot lately actually is , if you look at the different ways that Jesus makes appeals to people in the gospel , he uses all different kinds of motivation , right ? So there are times where you're motivated , where he motivates out of your love for God , right , there are times where he motivates out of your love for your neighbor . But there's times where he even says well , you know , think about what reward you want in heaven and you know where . Do you want the stuff here that Moth and Rust consumes , or do you want something better ? And I think that's the thing is , we're complex people . We have lots of different things that motivate us , and part of what the spirit uses is every level of that . And I think you see that in the way that Jesus motivates folks is he's not afraid to appeal to every level of motivation and supply that to us . You know , to call upon our love for God , our love for neighbor , even our self love , in a certain sense .
Speaker 2So yeah , man , praise be to God . That we've been baptized , yes , and claimed by grace , through faith , freely given . And I've never known a moment baptized as an infant . Right , I've never known a moment where I wasn't God's child and he wasn't pursuing me , claiming me , reminding me my sins are forgiven and life and salvation are mine now and forever . And that then calls us kind of up and out .
Speaker 2Yes , well , you could say it starts down to death . First and foremost , right , I've been crucified with Christ and I no longer live . He lives in me . And then Colossians , three right , I'm called to set my mind because I've been crucified with Christ . Set my mind on the things that are above where Christ is seated , the risen , reigning one , and then I can truly come down . And the motivation sure , we're complex , for sure , but I'm not trying to prove myself to win the approval of men . I have the approval of the Triune God . And then I'm just looking to grow as a follower of Jesus and love for my neighbor and care for the things . That breaks the heart of God . Like my motivation isn't to please God , he is fully satisfied in me . Any connection to motivation and identity , though , adam ? I think that's huge .
Speaker 3No , I agree with you , and I think what you're touching on there is just the profound gift of having that identity already given . And so there are lots of motivations that are used , are tapped into by the Lord , but one that he doesn't need because he's already given it to us , is this well , you've got to measure up right , you've got to pull yourself up by your bootstraps , do it by your own power , meet the grade . He knows we can't . That's why he came for us right . And to start from that position where your identity is already secured , as I think Luther saw , freedom of a Christian right . It frees you up to serve the neighbor Because you're not worried about well , I've got to check off all these boxes or make my way into heaven . Those motivations , you just are off the table , you don't have to worry about them , and it really is a freeing thing and gives you that power of freedom to serve .
Speaker 2That is the lightness of the yoke that Jesus gave you know the burden is easy and light , the burden of the law being placed upon you . It absolutely crushes , and praise be to God . We have been crushed that the new man and woman in Christ can be raised up . You did a lot of work on natural law the story . I was fascinated , the Protestant attempt to retrieve the conversation around natural law . And then you've talked a lot about Bonhoeffer's view of the relationship between Christ and creation in setting kind of at the base level , the natural level , the norms for moral and even political life . So talk a little bit about the need for and maybe the abuse of natural law . This is gonna go super deep , but I love it . I love it . Here we go .
Speaker 3Right on , right on . Yeah , so you know , in seminary time I was deeply drawn to natural law approaches , to ethics , in part because to the Beerman's point about starvation diet , one thing that happens in Lutheran circles is if you do ethics , you don't tend to get very far down the path of actually figuring out like what should you do or where should you go and how should you accomplish the things that God wants and follow him in a moral and ethical way . And one thing that natural law helps to do is offer some pointers and some guidance . And a lot of those pointers had to do with , or have to do with our bodily life and the fact that God's created us right , and so he clearly values everything about us our nature , the way that we're made and things like marriage , life and health , biologically , most basically , you know all the things we talk about our careers and our vacations , also our creativity and our play and our use of the arts . He cares about those things . He made us for those things and , of course , all of the different communities that we sometimes call orders in Lutheran ethics especially , you know , marriage and family , but then also society , state and church right and spread them on out .
Speaker 3And so natural law was a way of saying , hey , listen , these things matter . And it's also been used over the years to help us think about justice , justice in the public realm and human rights . You know , so if God created us , gave us life , then he gives us a certain right to that life over against others , that they shouldn't take that away . And I thought all of this was really important to help guide us and to help point us in the right direction . So those were some of the things I was drawn to early on in the natural .
Natural Law and Christ's Relationship
Speaker 2So talk a little bit about how natural law can maybe step on top of or supplant Christ and how Christ should be as we talk about natural law , because I think we can go down a universalistic kind of path pretty quick , like everybody has this , or we need to draw it out this natural knowledge of what is good and right and obviously as a confessing Lutheran , a confessing Christian , a biblical , conservative Christian like Jesus is the center of the fulfillment of the law . So there's no other way to really appropriately understand natural law apart from the one who is the word made flesh . But talk about that struggle maybe in pop Christianity today .
Speaker 3Sure , absolutely yeah , and I like the term you use there to sort of draw it out . You know , that's because we want to be able to talk to people who don't start with our suppositions . Especially , there is a big temptation there to sort of say okay , well , let's talk about the things we can agree on , and we all understand what it means to , in some ways , to live a bodily life and what is needed for that . And so , before you know it , though , what happens is you've drawn all that out into kind of a closed system where , like you say , the specifics of everything else that God is doing is not kind of in the , either not in there or is not at the heart , in the center , and what you see in scripture is really the reverse . So I'll just use one .
Speaker 3Maybe my favorite example from Bonhoeffer is . He says you know , if you read John John one , john 14 , you get the clear sense that Christ is life right , that to have life means to have Christ , and that's true from creation , john one says even before it's true in redemption . And so , really , when we think about what does it mean to live , what does it mean to have what is good , to have the good life . The answer to that is Christ , and not just our biological life or our life in this world and all of its goods . Right , those are a part of that , but they're included in a really secondary place . And Bonhoeffer's point is that if Christ is life , then even if you have these other things right , you still don't really have life unless you have Christ . And so the temptation or the danger is that we can start to speak of those other things as if they count as life in and of themselves , right , so as if they're sort of the cake .
Speaker 3I like this metaphor . They're sort of the cake and Christ is just icing on the cake , right ? And Bonhoeffer's like no , christ is the cake , christ is like his life . And you think of Jesus when he says , like Matthew 16 , I just did this with the Comfort Man's , if anyone would save his life , he'll lose it . But if you really want to find your life , lose it for my sake . Because what profit is it if you gain the entire world yet you forfeit your very soul or your very life ? There's different translations there , but that's kind of making the point . Christ is prompting us . Hey , like , life is not really in these other things . They're important , they're in there , but don't confuse that with life itself . Life is me , life is Christ . Right , and Paul testifies to that too . Christ is my life .
Speaker 2This , is this so good ? This is relatively and I don't know where I read it , I forget more things than I remember because I read so but more deistic , moralistic , therapeutic , something like that . I mean , that's kind of what you're talking about , because in a number of our churches and this is happening here in the United States of America right now you can listen to an entire sermon , and this is why I love being a Lutheran , and maybe , unless the text speaks about Jesus , jesus may not be even the icing on the cake , let alone the cake not even mentioned . It can just be this kind of more do better . We are called to , it's all law , and people are left like trying and , pastor , you convicted me once again praise , be to God . But they haven't heard that their sins are forgiven , that Jesus has fulfilled the law , that he is the power of God unto salvation by faith .
Speaker 2So , yeah , I think the Lutheran and this is why I love this podcast and why a lot of the work we're doing with the ULC I pray is bearing fruit in time is confessing conservative Lutheran Christians . We have to walk together with contextual hospitality , because the message of that we have , of the proper distinction and really all we're talking about here is the proper distinction between law and gospel right . This is a hope unto salvation and we need to be in the wider ecumenical conversation today because I think in the American church we're going down a route that leads us to just bring Christ on the side as kind of secondary , when he is the main point . Anything to say about that dystic , moralistic , therapeutic kind of deism that we have today in some confessing what they would call confessing Christian churches and I say this with all humility , it's not my MO , bro , to like throw other church bodies under the bus , but I have just heard anecdotally from people that are going to different churches that what we have is different , it's different . Say more about that .
Speaker 3Yeah , I think , 100% I think . And to your point about not throwing people under the bus , I mean , even with the moralistic , therapeutic deism , there's some good motivations there , right , like there's a desire to care for the neighbor . Also , in that there's a recognition , the therapeutic side , there's a recognition that there's harms in the world that need to be dealt with . But part of the point is like , what's the real powerhouse to deal with those things ? Right , and it's the Lord Jesus , it's His Spirit , it's grace , it's gospel , and that's the point I think you're making there and that's like you say . I agree with you . That's really what we can add to the conversation and I think , also part of what Christ adds as well .
Speaker 3Christ brings life , and Christ also is a way of life as well , and so what does it mean to be truly and fully human ? What does it mean to really walk in mercy and redemption ? These are things that the Lord shows us in the way that he lived His life and the way that he the commands he gave to His followers , and all of these things should then actually shape the specific things that we do , and that's maybe the other part that I sometimes worry that we miss in the natural , all or any perspective , more holistic , therapeutic or anything that just kind of hones in on a generic sort of really generic human life in the world . Before you know it , that's just about the stuff of this world and it's just about , out to your point , our ability to try to gain it for each other . And it starts out well meaning . I really think it does , and some of those things are part of what God gives us . But yeah , it's about being rooted . Bonhoeffer says that at one point everything depends on finding the right starting point .
Speaker 2Right , everything in Christian ethics , and the starting point has to be Christ , christ yes , yes , and a lot of our churches , because there's so much unraveling in the world and from an ethics perspective , you know , leaders not maybe having , from our perspective , with the information we have , the greatest of motivations and intention and really character , character flaws , I think we can see that and how it's impacting the church , kind of the anger I've noticed , just more confusion and maybe anger within the average follower of Jesus . So our call , as they are restored , renormed , as they gather for Word and sacrament consistently , is to let them know the God who is over all things , who holds them and all things in the palm of his hand , and then and then , as the word speaks , we speak . So the question here is , as you look at the world , what are some of the ethical concerns that you think man , the church , has to have a voice here or things really really could unravel very , very quickly in our culture ? What are your thoughts there , adam ?
Speaker 3Well , I think you mentioned one there anger .
Speaker 3Anger is like wildly rampant , and you know the culture of outrage , of kind of saying this is a good thing , that everybody gets outraged , and I think one of the important things , though , as we respond to that Is not to be read then become reactionary ourselves , right , and say all all anger is bad , all like everything you're saying is well , you know , god gets angry over sins , um , and injustice and all of that .
Speaker 3And I think if we are called to have the heart of God , you know some of that has to be in there , and so I think there's a , there can be an affirmation of yeah , like injustice In the world and in our lives , should it's appropriate that that sparks , you know , a kind of indignation . But then the question really becomes well , but what do you do with that ? You know , and what a christian hears in the word then is Do not let the sun go down on your anger , right ? Well , the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of god . So , even if you , even if there's like something valid there , if you build on that , which is what our culture is doing right now , you're going to end up in a world of trouble and I think we see that . You know it's just cycles and cycles of anger and hurt , back and forth .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean the base emotion of anger is really ultimate fear , fear of fear of loss .
Speaker 2Things used to be a certain way and they no longer . No longer are , and I would say our house is not being . That's the shifting sand of our fault , I mean , our emotions are always going to be teeter and entotering right . And so what's the opposite of fear , the perfect love of god ? Cast out , cast out fear . So the call for the christian is to Lean into their identity and jesus christ and build their house on the solid rock of his word , his promises for us , um , I've been , I think one of the uh , underlying or foundational struggles today and there's a lot of research toward this end is is isolation and people not having that .
Speaker 2You talk orders , that that built out community support and um , there I like kind of rings of relationship . Thinking of it this way , you've got well at the core , it better be your relationship with jesus , but then you've been placed in a , in a family , hopefully with a mom and dad and a in a wider family of love and care and support . And then you probably have another ring of relationship where there's those close , close friendships . We could say a lot there . I don't think we're cultivating deep friendship with within the church .
Speaker 2And then there's a middle a lot of sociologists have been talking about this kind of middle ring . You've got the outer ring of kind of culture , um , and kind of this is where the anger , all the stuff that's going on out there . Social media , it's kind of bring , but if you don't have that middle ring of support , say , 100 , 200 people , your , your village , if you will and I think the church is called to be that , that village today , um , for god's people , we , we're not going to have that wider . On the one hand , support and trust , but then , but then accountability , man bro , I see , I see some of the stuff you're saying on social about that wider ring . This is not the character of christ coming through . Anything to say , though , about that Building out orders and really how that middle ring is very shaky right now for many people , leading to that sense of wider isolation .
Speaker 3Yeah , no , I agree , um , we're , we're created for community , we're redeemed into community , right , but that community is , is Built , is leaned into , is , uh , it's participated in and fostered and so it does take kind of intentional action on our part . And I think that's , in the modern world , one of the things . Ironically , all the great technological advances and everything that we have , which are blessings in one way , make it very possible for us to Silo ourselves right and to just not . We can function by getting our stuff and exchanging , you know , meeting each other only in that kind of Exchange or relationship of swapping stuff , swapping goods , um , and it takes some vision and some intentionality about you know , I just want to , I want to get out and know more people that I don't know . I want to be curious , right , I want to be curious about , uh , who other people are and what they're up to and what God is up to , right , an expectation that , um , and this is the thing I love , I think I mentioned to you we did Greg Finkie's joining Jesus on his mission book , and one of the things I love about that book is , um , which should have been so obvious but was refreshingly eye-opening is look , guys , we approach mission , sometimes as if like it's starting with us and like I've got to do this .
Speaker 3Jesus is there before you . Jesus is already doing all kinds of cool things , all the heavy lifting stuff . Jesus does right , like , not you . So all I have to do is Wander out with an open heart and eager attitude , some curiosity , and say you know word , what is up to ? What are you up to ? Who do you want me to meet today ? Stop and actually talk with people . Stand in your driveway right and say hey to the neighbor that walks by with their dog .
Speaker 3Um , I tell you , even the last couple of weeks We've had a lot of different um , uh , like road construction or this or that , or , and I've had other uh , people come out to fix things at my house and I've had probably Six deep conversations , like we got deep really quick about you know life and and
Religion, God, and Being Good Neighbor
Speaker 3and what . How does religion or god play into ? And just because I stopped and talked with the foreman or the whoever it was , um , and I just and part of it is again back to those different motivations . It's not just because I love my neighbor and I want them to know the word and all of that , but I like it's okay that I'm getting nurtured there too , right , god is showing me new things about what he's up to in the world and and why my neighbor really is lovable , despite All of the ways we collide and conflict , right , and so I think that's so vital because , precisely because we polarize , uh , so much , is to have real face-to-face , like you said , this kind of intermediate level interactions then , um , that can remind us why we actually can love our neighbor and that there are lovable things about one another , and you know , and just give us some practice making relationships .
Speaker 3I mean , all of that , I think is is critical , um , and it has to . Yeah , to your point , it needs to happen . You got to move from that inward to the outward , um , and not skip to this out here , which is really Impersonal and not linked to anybody specific , right , who are the people that god's putting right in front of me each and every day that I can build a relationship with ?
Speaker 2Amen , amen . We talk a lot about felt needs with the united leadership collective and using felt needs is kind of in . It's not a bait and switch . We really actually care about our homes in our communities being and people's financial , you know habits , budget building and all that kind of stuff . But we're seeing a lot of growth right now Again in just helping people Connect , like setting space as a church around a shared felt need . Parents with kids who have high anxiety that's one of the groups that is recently recently formed but say more about the church kind of having an intention Around helping , helping their members become better neighbors . How are you guys trying to do that too in in your context ?
Speaker 3For sure . Yeah , um , yeah , I think finding there are a lot of things . I guess our , our starting point is um , and and this is especially important for so , we're a smaller church , right , we have a hundred people , hundred twenty people and worship on sunday , and first of all , that's a strength in itself . There are different , different churches have different strengths . Build on your strength . That's number one .
Speaker 3Um , you know , we have a great family feel to , we know each other , people are genuinely eager To get to know people if they walk in the door , and that's a real strength and allows us to build from there . But then also , people already they're a principle of um go where people already gather , right . So we may not , as a , as a , be able to put on some big program For our neighbors together , necessarily , um , but there are other places where they're already gathering that we can go and join them , right . And so we've , even if it's things like at our context , we've gone to the public schools near the church and just gone to their pto and said , hey , you know , we're , uh , we're not here to Evangelize , we're here to just say we love you as neighbors . Is there anything we could do to support you as you build community in your place , in your context , um , and for us that meant some things like uh , for a while we ran family dances that the pto sponsored , because All of the pto parents then didn't actually get to participate in the event .
Speaker 3We said , well , we can run it and you guys can can then actually participate and you know , just finding those places to your point about needs To plug in and places where you are facilitating community for other people , right and with other people . Um , and we brought our own little uh bit to add . So we had ran like appreciation stations where we Did things with little activities where moms and dads and kids could talk to each other about important things and Appreciate each other and show gratitude . You know , and that's coming from our , our christian Ethic of what , what strengthens relationships , but it's in a way that uh that everybody can benefit from and , uh , that's been , that's been good for us . It's so exciting .
Speaker 2It sounds like your church is a family right that your brothers and sisters , brothers and sisters in christ , I think the family Unit , as well as the family metaphor , needs to be unearthed today in our local congregations . Do you agree with that ? Why ? Why so , or not ? Yeah .
Speaker 3Oh , 100 percent . I , um , I have never been , uh , so deeply , you know , connected as I am here at st Peter , and it's not just because I'm the pastor , right , but it's because we love each other and people want to love on each other and have , like , be a little bit up in each other's business , not in a bad way , but like in a way that says like you know , actually care about you and what's going on in your life . And I think that's so vital Because none of us , to your point , can do it . Even our families are not . You know , it's great to have family that supports you , but that's . We're not self-sufficient unto ourselves as as nuclear families either , it seems to me that satan is is very .
Speaker 2He's worked Um Covertly , but now it's very overt that he wants to attack the the nuclear family as well as the the family . This has always been his aim right to steal , kill , destroy and and divide . Say something , or around um the church speaking for like family , just values and love and care and support . Now that love and care and support challenge , and If you wanted to lean into even kind of the gender confusion topic today and and what that's meaning , I'd love to get your thoughts on that . So , yeah , talk about , talk about the family and how satan is really attacking the family . I think this is before you jump in , I think on the confessional mission online . This has to be a point of of unity for us as we speak into culture today . So , yeah , talk about the , the need for a Christian understanding of the family .
Speaker 3For sure , 100% . Yeah , I am all kinds of things to say here . Well , so I think the first thing to say is maybe coming always from a place of compassion , right , because there are a lot of people who are already experiencing brokenness in this area and they know that they're broken . Some admit it more than others , but there's a brokenness , and so how are we going to present the truths of God's Word , the truths of creation , the truths of the gospel , in a way that says this is a good thing I want you to have ? This has been a blessing to me .
Speaker 3And also , then , as far as meeting families , one thing , as we've had circuit meetings among the pastors here . We've talked a lot about how many members of our congregations , as far as LGBTQ things are , they're family members who are struggling with . I have a very you know a daughter , a son , a grandson , a niece and nephew who has transitioned or who has come out in this way or that way , and I'm struggling with how do I speak God's Word into that situation in a helpful way and how do I still love the person , even as I'm holding on to God's truth and part of it is what I just said , I think is sharing the truth from the perspective of this is something good I want you to have , and not like a harangue , but I also think part
Navigating Difficult Conversations in the Church
Speaker 3of . So how do we speak to these things ? Let's start in our churches , with the members of our churches who are hurting and just trying to figure out what to do in their own families . Right . How can we come together and just share where we're at ?
Speaker 3The body of Christ is deeply resourceful . The Spirit's promise is that He'll equip the body that will mutually , you know , meet each other's needs when we struggle with things . Right . So let's struggle together . Let's say to each other what have you said that's been beneficial ? What have you said that was not beneficial ? Let's talk about it . How do we actually do this on the ground ?
Speaker 2And it's not just what you say but it's how you say it right . And I think differentiating intent and impact is very , very important . And when we're having difficult conversations with members of our church family , we do it face to face . And yeah , we've got a handful of families here slightly larger congregation that are walking this through , and so our team is reaching out and what do we ? Again ? Law , gospel is the handle here . Right , I mean , for the broken , for the confused , for the anxious , we offer words of grace and love and care . You're not outside .
Speaker 2But for those that are just kind of , you know , vigilant in their sin , regardless of what the sin is , it's not just there's their sin across the board , right , for those of their vigilant , unrepentant in their sin , this is when the law comes and the law does what the law does and it kills over time .
Speaker 2But nonetheless , I just hear you and I really really agree we can go down a very , very legalistic path and end up looking at the speck when we got the huge log in our own eye there . And having said that , I think you know , corporately and privately , we kind of shrug our shoulders to say like there are some based first order realities . Absolutely . There's a lot of confusion today . In the beginning God created us male and female and God gave us marriage between a man and a woman as his good gift for procreation of children to be brought up in the fear and knowledge of the Lord . I think just saying that , even with that kind of a tone from the pulpit , as the word of God speaks , you know both individually and corporately , is necessary in these times . Anything to add to that Adam .
Speaker 3Yeah , no , 100% , I agree . I agree we have to be queer and we have to be yeah , I kind of , I kind of sense , and I do this all the time in my parish too , and they say , remember to say the first thing first . And the first thing is yeah , I mean , we stick with , we know that God's plan is what's best for us and what is right , you know , and to simply say that , like you say from the pulpit , and to say this is God's plan and to say here's why it's good . And also , I mean I think it's okay to ask other people questions too , like do you really ? You know ? I hear you , I hear you saying that you feel like your gender doesn't match and you , you want to change that .
Speaker 3But you know , have you thought about , have you heard from any people who have done the transition and have not found it to ? And in fact , it's created other problems , it's created health problems , it's created more dysphoria , more sense of a mismatch . And you know , I'm just out of concern for you . It doesn't seem to me that you're headed down the path , that that really has been it . Like , have you thought about that ? Is this really beneficial ? And then that gives them a chance to share and they may say well , what do you think ? And I ?
Speaker 3And then that's the door is open for you to say well , you know , in the scriptures the word like these are great gifts . Like you said , these are gifts he's given us about , you know , male , female marriage . He's given it like that's created for a purpose , the gender , the sex that you were given biologically , that's a good thing , right . Like you were created good . Everyone is fearfully and wonderfully made , and the way that you were made is good , and so I just want you to find a way to tap into that goodness that you were , that you were given and and I guess you know , in a lot of it too , is here is I'm always parsing this in relational terms there are , there are the loud mouths on the big stage , and and for them sometimes there has to be a stronger , more forceful kind of wall . And so , yes , so Bob Colb's question always applies why do you want to know ? What are you really ?
Speaker 2doing here and you can't discern that Apart from apart from relationship , for for sure , what are your next areas of interest Theologically right now , any other areas in addition to ethics that are just kind of popping for you right now in your pastoral ministry ? Yeah , what are ? What's on your bookshelf is another way to even ask this question right now .
Speaker 3Sure , yeah . So I guess two things . I'm doing a lot of stuff around formation right now , so , thinking that through with our Comfort Man's , I'm looking toward this spring I'll be taking a sabbatical and hopefully working on a book introducing the faith , just because , as I've brought folks into the church and as I've worked in levels from everything from littles all the way up to College courses at Notre Dame , I've never had a book that had all the things I wanted in one place . And so to kind of work on that a little bit , oh , and just that formation and the basic , the basic framework , and seeing how it all hangs together , how Christ really is life and goodness on every level , and then what you're gonna self-publish that , or is that gonna be somewhere that People can get , or how's that gonna work ?
Speaker 2I love that ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I appreciate . Yeah , we'll see how that , how it goes . I mean I'd love to submit it . The plan is to submit it to a publisher once I've got enough of it written to to do that , and so so we'll see what happens there .
Speaker 2So kind of relational Catechesis of sorts . Right is that right ? Is that a way to summarize your work ? Okay , well , sure , keep me posted , adam .
Speaker 3Yeah . So that's one thing , and I guess the other big thing that I care about a lot right now is just the whole how do we have , how do we have better conversations with each other in the midst of polarized society , polarized church ? What do we do about that ? And so I'm working right now I should . I just did a presentation for the faculty over at Fort Wayne Seminary on this topic and Interested interestingly , there I looked back at some essays by Walther , the first president of the LCMS , on church fellowship and he's got some really interesting things to say . So I'm working on working on an article coming out of that , hopefully as well , and well , give me it .
Speaker 2You can't just drop that . You got to give me a teaser , man . What did Walther say about the necessity of solid , healthy relationships ?
Speaker 3Oh yeah , well , so I , you know I'm well in the way that I'll put that . I've kind of designed the paper is . Augustine talks about rightly ordered love , right , and so how do we love God and we love our neighbor ? And what is that Involved ? When you're in the midst of conflict especially ? And so I'll give you one one Walther teaser .
Speaker 3Walter is really big on the necessity of bearing one another in the body , right .
Speaker 3So as we have a disagreement .
Speaker 3And he'll say really surprising things , like when there's a disagreement , even if it goes to the heart of the faith , something that's in the what an ancient heres called the analogy of faith , or the regular Fidei , the analogy , analogia Fidei , the like , the core stuff we confess in the Apostles Creed , like really important stuff .
Speaker 3He'll say you still don't immediately break fellowship , even if there's big disagreements on that level , because we're called to bear one another in the body . And he's got all these quotes from Luther and the Confessions about how bad it is to jump too quickly down each other's Throats and how you'll rend the body of Christ and it's our is the heart of God . And so , even in those most serious Situations of disagreement on core doctrines , you try to bear one another in love and and you work through them . And now , of course , walter thinks there's a point where where that's where that's broken off , and so you got to talk about that too . But but I was just really in some ways , happily , happily , surprised surprises maybe not the right word but gratified that that this important father to our faith Really held together truth and love In a profound way , and so I think that's part of what I'm trying to highlight in that work .
Speaker 2Well , I mean he learned that from Jesus .
Speaker 3He did he did , he did that's right .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean Jesus is the Master reconciler . I mean his call was that all people be drawn near and Everyone leaves , all the way to the point of his death on the cross . And you kind of ? You kind of wonder . I mean Jesus saying gives obviously the great commission and the witnesses , acts 1a , jerusalem today as Samaria to the ends of the earth . And how many of those people that were the early , early followers of Jesus in the early church I'm doing a devotion today on the book of Acts how many of those early followers of Jesus are , hundreds maybe , of the people who Received the loaves and fishes and had their bellies full but didn't recognize that he was the bread of life .
Speaker 2And Jesus doesn't say I off with you . You know , I have no need for you , jesus , I love the humanity of Jesus and I think it's act 6 right is . I'm sorry at John 6 , when he's , when he's got that , that moment with Peter . Are you gonna go away too ? You know people are all leaving and where are we gonna go ? Peter says you have the words of eternal life . And yet we all know that , that all of the disciples Didn't stand up for Jesus and he bore it Nonetheless . And that shape , then the heart of the early church , to welcome . I just think Paul then too right how he crosses these cultural boundaries to bring as many people with pagan ideologies now mixing with with Trinitarian faith , right . And there's no more now quorum , quorum day . Oh , no more . Jew Gentiles , slave free , young , old , rich , poor , we're all one in in Christ . So if that's , the way .
Speaker 2Jesus there , that's , with the apostle Paul .
Church Unity and Building Relationships
Speaker 2Obviously , man , you look at Luther's story and and really wanting To do everything possible and I think there's some good work right now being done between Catholics and Lutherans to say , oh man , the , the schism and the counter-reformation and all this , it just didn't produce the , the righteousness of God .
Speaker 2So how do we stay at the table with one another , recognizing our differences but doing as much as possible to move toward our unity around the , the work of Jesus , a person and work of Jesus , and then Recognizing sorry for this long rant , you just ping something in me and then recognizing 1st Corinthians 13 man , if we have all of these theologies tightly knit to you Know , knit up in our heads and connecting us maybe some but not all and we don't have love for our neighbor man , we've lost it all , we're clinging gong . So that's what I'm praying for in our church body and in the wider church as well , that we'd lean into , lean into unity as the people of God , especially just a grain on the Apostles Creed , nice and Creed , etc . Right , adam , we need to work there and praying for that obviously very , very intently in the Lutheran Church , missouri Synod . Anything to add to that little unity rant , they're probably .
Speaker 3Yeah , no , it's that's good , that's good . Yeah , and you know , in the challenge , I think , is that there's all kinds of love that have to be expressed right . There's a love that's expressed through speaking the truth . I'm speaking the truth in love . There's a love that's that's built around that , though that's a wider love that bears one another , even when we , when we don't agree , and and our challenge always as human beings , is that pendulum swing right , like we go too far this way or we go too far that way , and part of the way I think we we get past that is is To think about how exactly do those things you know fit together and how do you do them ? How do you do it all well together ? And I think I think Walter actually has a lot to say about that and some some interesting things .
Speaker 3And and To your point about you know , catholic and Protestant , and even likewise within our own body , yeah , how can we , how can we step toward each other ? Where can we find points of agreement ? And recognizing that . That doesn't mean that you have to downplay or soft-pedal the differences or just go . Oh well , none of that matters . Yeah , it matters . God's truth always matters , every word . Moses and Jesus both say they come from the mouth of God is there to feed God's people , and so every word matters , right ? We don't , we don't drop any word Out of true love for each other as well as God . But but , yeah , how can we , how can we step towards each other and and form a , to your point , a truly common mind that that's all of us Coming together and bringing , bringing the the truth that we , that each of us sees , and helping mutually correct one another for each of our blonde spots ? Right , Amen .
Speaker 2Well , this is why I have these conversations and learn from amazing leaders in the church , like you is . We both agree the church is a hope of the world man .
Speaker 3Absolutely .
Speaker 2Jesus is a hope of the world , and then the body of christ , the , that christ actually lives within us and moves between us , that the risen and reigning one , by the power of his spirit and word , is at work through us and as we look at a world that is in chaos and disarray , as it's been since our beginning rebellion , our god is a relational god who is pursuing us and then inviting us to pursue , to step toward I love that to step toward one another . How can people connect with you , adam , if they desire to do so ? This has been so much fun .
Speaker 3Oh sure , absolutely . So you can always Email me is probably the easiest , fastest way . Adam quark , nd like noterdame at gmailcom , you can go to our website , splcmorg . St Peter , withern church , michiana , or miss you walker , whichever one you want to do in mission , take you pick splcmorg is our mother .
Speaker 2Are you ? Are you an irish fan , having gone there for your ?
Speaker 3oh , of course , of course , except , except and we found this out I've had several very generous folks in the congregation that will take me to Noterdame . Chapel Hill basketball games , um and uh , and I try my best to cheer for both teams . Chapel Hill be in my alma mater , but if Chapel Hill gets behind , then it's all to our hills all the way .
Speaker 2Okay . Yeah that's quite a that's quite a rivalry . For sure have you been to many football games there .
Speaker 3I know not , as not as many as I'd like . I suppose they're pretty pricey , um , but uh , there you get a . Actually all the ones I've gone to have been generously donated by friends or other people . Congregation members I've been to a few . It's quite an environment to be in that house , especially when they're when they're own and and really doing well , oh , yeah .
Speaker 2So I'm not one to like name drop consistently , but , um , a coach at , except when I do . But I'm a coach at , uh , uh , the Gilbert Christian high school . My son's a freshman there , a football coach and our head coach brand new head coach this year Is John Carlson , who played seven years in the NFL and was a four-year letter winner at Notre Dame as a tight end . Big , he's a big dude man . God made him . God made him different , but man , what a passionate lover of of Jesus . But , yeah , he shares some amazing football stories , like catching a touchdown in that environment . I can't , even because I play football as a quarterback . I played at Concordia Seward , I mean a little different catching it . Oh , a touchdown at , uh , a sewer , nebraska , yeah , then then they're in Notre Dame
Relational Health in the Lutheran Church
Speaker 2.
Speaker 2So how fun , man , uh , thank you for your generosity of time today . It's , uh , it is a fantastic honor to call you a brother across the country right now , partner in the gospel and Lutheran church , missouri Synod , with a heart that goes way beyond our , our church body , just praying for love and relational . What I'm taking man is just relational , relational health , um , in our , in our churches , and may that have a ripple effect out into our culture , our communities , our neighborhoods , out into the world . It's a good day . Go and make it a great day . Please like , subscribe , comment Wherever it is you take in the american reformation podcast and we'll continue to have awesome conversations with leaders like adam , seeking to bring love and life into the world . Thanks so much , adam .
Speaker 3Thanks , tim , appreciate you .