Bridging Soccer and Faith: How Missions and Friendship Intersect with Tardelli Voss

Take a seat at our virtual table as Tardelli Voss, a missionary director for the Lutheran Mission Society in San Diego, and I explore the intriguing intersection of soccer's growing popularity, faith, and mission work. 

From our conversation, you'll discover a compelling perspective on the American Christian Church's need for reformation, as Tardelli passionately speaks about unity and dialogue between different Christian traditions. We delve into the importance of the missionary mindset, character skills in mission work, and the concept of the Great Connection - the combination of the Great Commission and the Great Commandment. We all agree that collaboration and friendships with other pastors play a crucial role in mission work and that the Holy Spirit uses our love for others to draw people deeper into a relationship with God.

Finally, we challenge you to consider the importance of deeper friendships and partnerships within the Church. The need for showing up and being fully present at conferences and worship services is discussed, as is the theology of friendship. We touch on the impact of the trans congregational context on God's kingdom and urge fellow pastors to prioritize caring for each other's souls and creating safe spaces for confession and absolution. So, whether you're a soccer enthusiast, a pastor, or someone interested in matters of faith and unity in the Church, this conversation promises to deliver some thoughtful insights.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.

Speaker 2: 0:36

Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray that, wherever you're taking in this conversation today, that your baptismal identity is strong, that the joy of the Lord, which is the fuel for collaborative, growth-centered conversations, the joy of the Lord is your strength and that you're buckled up. Maybe you're in the car you're driving. You should be buckled up, but you should invite the Holy Spirit to buckle you up today in his love and his warm embrace. As I get the chance to hang out with one of my favorite people on planet earth. I got a lot of favorite people, but in terms of pastors who come from Mexico, tardelli Voss is tops man.

Speaker 2: 1:15

Tardelli is a missionary director for the Lutheran Mission Society in San Diego, ordained as a pastor in the evangelical Lutheran church in Brazil after being baptized a child of the God. He is the husband of Diani Am I saying that right? Yes, diani. And then he has three children 10, eight and five. And he recently took this move from Brazil I know you have some connections to the church there in Mexico as well to go on mission to make Jesus known in San Diego as a missionary, an ordained missionary, raising up a whole bunch of missionaries there in San Diego, the missionary mindset is what you're going to hear today from my friend Tardelli. So how you doing, brother? Thanks for hanging with me today.

Speaker 3: 2:05

Wow, what a pleasure to be here, tim. Thank you so much. Thank you for the invitation. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for the words, for considering me one of your favorite people. You better double check on that. No way, man, good to know you man.

Speaker 2: 2:26

Good to hang out. So kind of a standard opening question, as you're a missionary that's been sent to the United States of America. It's kind of funny, tardelli. I mean there's so much change that has happened in the American Christian church in just the 15 years that I've been a pastor in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. It used to be like we're approaching this post-Christian, or we may say pre-Pagan, day and age. But there were rumors that man, there could be missionaries from other places, from China maybe sending missionaries, africa sending or even Southern South America sending missionaries. And here we are in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod with a missionary from Brazil, from Latin America, sent here to bless the body of Christ. So as you just have that macro view of the American and when I say American I mean more the United States of America as you look at the United States of America, how are you praying for Reformation in Jesus' Church here in the US, tardelli?

Speaker 3: 3:29

Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know if people will be watching this podcast today, october 31st, but it's an honor to be talking to you on this special day for us as Lutheran Reformation. I like the fact that you are bringing the topic of Reformation. You know, definitely it's a day to celebrate. It's a day to celebrate by praying. By praying, you know, I've got a couple prayers specifically for this day. Man, maybe you know number one. You know I've been.

Speaker 3: 4:05

I had a chance to be a part of some LCMS meetings and conferences with global Lutherans just recently and some conferences with the IOC. I do some work as a translator for those conferences and they've been. You know, the main thing in those conferences is to reaffirm our doctrines and our confession and I think you know that is so important and it is one of my prayers that you know, as Lutherans or as Christians, we still hold fast to our confessions. But I do have some other prayers too, you know. To be honest, yes, I think we should be holding fast to our confession, keep praying and doing that, but you know I pray for dialogue and unity, you know, between Christians. You know, in my ministry, my path, I have been always surrounded by other Christians from other traditions, including Catholics, and I have, I believe, the Holy Spirit have given me a deep sense of respect and love for this tradition. So I am, you know, a Lutheran to the core, but I pray for, you know, more dialogue and unity.

Speaker 3: 5:32

In a sense it's a prayer that Luther and Melanchthon would finally reconcile with each other, you know, to have the best of both of them. You know to have that confessing of Luther but also that spirit of dialogue of Melanchthon. And I know that they you know both of them can be in a sense, you know, seen from a negative point of view. You know I'm not speaking Luther, you know when he's, you know, too radical or exaggerated in his anger or irony, and I'm not speaking of Melanchthon when he compromised on important points of doctrine. But bringing them together is a prayer for today and of course, I pray for a missionary zeal. You know that the Reformation. Celebrate Reformation today and leave out our legacy. You know we'll do it with a more fervent spirit of missionary.

Speaker 2: 6:29

Oh, I love that I share that same desire for unity between Catholics and Charismatics and then recognizing that when we enter into the conversation around unity, that does not mean we're compromising what we believe or Luther confession and we just have a very hard time and I probably every tradition does understanding the nuance.

Speaker 2: 6:52

But I think what Lutherans have to offer is Luther's teaching around law and gospel, namely in the two kinds of righteousness which this tension today he should allow us then, in love for our neighbor, love for our brother or sister in Christ, whoever is confessing Jesus's Lord, to enter in and love and care and listening, you know, twice as much as we speak, rather than, rather than having to defend. So you, many of us in a Lutheran tradition, have this kind of Germanic kind of, maybe historical, reserved or maybe argumentative. There can be a shadow side of pride. That is, that is here. What do you think in terms of Latin America Lutheranism Is there? Is there more openness to, to dialogue that you see in in different parts of of the Lutheran expression, and you especially, as you look at the ILC and your work, your work there, I'm curious to daily.

Speaker 3: 7:47

Okay, well, you know, each country in Latin America may have, you know, its own way of seeing this, but some, some of the Lutheran churches in Latin America have been planted by the LCMS and have a strong route on our German background. So in a sense, you can see in Latin America, especially like my country, brazil, argentina, paraguay, I believe, uruguay as well, maybe Chile, you see those countries a small LCMS pretty much Okay. So the same good things that we have in our church body, the same struggles, you see that in a small portion. So I would say that the same struggle that we have to maybe enter in dialogue with other traditions, not to compromise anything or not to, you know, eventually bring the churches together, but just to understand each other, to understand where our people in their confession, in their practice, so we can help better each other, so we can even confess better our confession. It's important for us to understand.

Speaker 3: 9:11

Sometimes, I think, tim, we debate, we talk with our fellow brothers from other traditions based on our assumptions of what they believe, or maybe, for example, with Catholics in what we think they believed, by what they practice, in popular spirituality or, like you know, we don't, sometimes we don't know the progress of their thinking over the years. So we don't have the exact you know story in front of us and that's important and that's why we need to be coming close to talk and to listen to one another and thank God we, in some instances we are doing it. There are some lines of dialogue, official dialogue between our churches in other traditions high level, positive and we are seeing the first documents, the first reports of those dialogues being public just recently. So that that's good news.

Speaker 2: 10:30

It's great news, brother, as the world turns and turns, more and more, you could say, secular and almost anti-God, if we don't have the theological and sociological muscles to lock arms in our presentation of the love of Christ to the world, from Catholic to Charismatic and Lutherans in between, we're going to miss a major, major opportunity today and again, that does not mean theological compromise, it simply means whoever is about Jesus, good faith and good will.

Speaker 2: 11:07

The United States of America, so it's the American. The United States of America was founded I don't care what you may hear in the world it was founded on good faith and good will, which led us to say there should be freedom of expression in how these different, you know faith bodies, freedom of speech, obviously, and then hopefully, the Judeo-Christian ethic is what carries us, so we can stand on the Ten Commandments, for instance. Right, we can stand on. There are a lot of idols in our world today and God created us, male and female. Just these kind of base, core, core teachings For those who are confessing. Again, along that, along that spectrum, we have to lock arms today, not necessarily, I think, differentiating our vertical righteousness, but really just our righteousness before, before the world. Anything more to add on this kind of wider ecumenical conversation? Tordelli.

Speaker 3: 12:01

No, no, I think we are on the same page and I'm glad to you know, to have this conversation.

Speaker 3: 12:09

Maybe one thing that I just thought of is I had a conversation with the Japanese pastor, japanese missionary, in San Diego just yesterday, and he comes from a Baptist background and I was talking to him about my Lutheran background and as we were just talking about, you know, our stories and our ministries, and even dreaming about the potential partnership, he said to me you know, just please, don't, you know, don't force me to be a Lutheran or don't force me to, you know, make the identity of my ministry Lutheran, because when these mission, these Japanese that I he's reaching here in San Diego, when they go back to Japan, these students at university here, sometimes they don't have the chance to, you know, to participate in the Baptist or the Lutheran in their villages or in their towns, because we don't have in every town a Baptist or a Lutheran church.

Speaker 3: 13:24

So he's like, in a sense, he was talking, you know, the situation with Christianity in some places. You know, don't afford us to, you know, be too too radical, too fanatic in our traditions, because we may have to partner with a different tradition again, with our limits, with our boundaries, but we may have to to, in a sense, partner with different traditions if we want to reach every town and every village in every family.

Speaker 2: 13:57

Wow, yeah, that's, that's pretty radical, I think, for many Lutherans. I think we've we've been very open to those sorts of partnerships international, you know, and Lutheran World Mission, et cetera. That's just the way it is. On the mission field, but I think where we're struggling right now, as the mission field comes in a post-Christian context here in America I don't, I don't know exactly what that, what that looks like, what that feels like, it feels like I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose something, but it's just practical. We don't have Lutheran Church Missouri Synod congregations in every city at the level that we need confessing Christian churches, right? So, yeah, let's, let's partner and and not compromise theology. Both things can happen at the very same, very same time.

Speaker 2: 14:49

So how did you tell us your ministry story a little bit? You were a church planner in Arkansas, northwest Arkansas, for almost almost a decade, planted a Hispanic congregation there. You got your PhD in systematic theology and you can. You also love. You love soccer and sports and stuff. So we're gonna have so much fun talking, talking today and we're gonna talk about the deep need for friendship. So, yeah, this was just a little bit of a teaser in terms of the wider ecumenical conversation. Tell us your ministry story there, todeli.

Speaker 3: 15:22

I like to mention soccer, and everyone listened to us. You know, I don't care if you are a baseball fan or basketball fan. I'm not gonna make the case that soccer is the best you know. I respect each other, but I will say this every American will, you know, have a chance to to to see some good soccer games in the near future. A lot of the soccer world, the world championship, you know, america, south America, latin America championship, all kinds of championships are coming to be host in America next year and the following year. So, yeah, it's good If it's gonna be fun, at least for me. So yeah, some people said it, I moved to America because of that. You know that. I came here because of that so I can get the chance to see it.

Speaker 3: 16:21

But yeah, you know, for me my ministry really starts, you know I have to go back to my family. I came from a strong Christian Lutheran family. You know my ancestors, they were all. They had the German and the Lutheran background. I don't. I, you know, I didn't come from a pastoral family, but I did come from a strong lay leaders. You know family Lutheran families, like good people. My my parents, my grandparents, they were really faithful to Jesus and to the church and they taught that to me at home. Really, they did not just took me to church but they really, you know, passed on the faith to me and my and my siblings at home. So I had a, you know, you know, always this, this connection with, with faith, and and and and. Since I wasn't actually I think I was nine when I had this desire to become a pastor and that desire was affirmed by my family, by my parents, by by, by my local congregation.

Speaker 3: 17:31

And then I had a chance to to go to seminary in Brazil. We have a similar seminary than the ones in in we have. We have in the LCMS. It's a six year program. So I had that full experience, residential experience in in the seminary in Brazil and and then, as I was in in the seminary. Actually there was a pattern of always being sent to mission fields. You know the pre Vicarage and then the Vicarage and the first call, all of those three sendings from the professors in seminary and the Lutheran Church body in Brazil. I was always sent to a very you know, a very important mission field to work with pastors who were highly mission minded, first in the south of Brazil, then in Uruguay, when I had a chance to learn Spanish. Tremendous challenge to do mission in Uruguay. It's one of the most secular country in the world, it is the most secular country in Latin America. And then my first call out of seminary, without requesting or applying, was to plant a church in Arkansas. Believe it or not, that was a shock it was it was.

Speaker 3: 18:56

It was it was. I had no intention or dreams, or or I had no experience Living in in English speaking country. I had no English at all and See it really. It was real interesting. I was interviewing with the Mid-South district.

Speaker 3: 19:18

When they weren't talking to me about coming Before they extended me the call and they you know, they saw that that I was nervous. They heard me through a translator that I said you know, I, I'm not ready for it. I mean, I, I don't speak English, I don't know much about the Hispanic culture. The call was to plant the Hispanic Church in Northwest Arkansas and the mission executive said you know, I See that you are nervous, I see that you're anxious, I see that you think you don't have what you need to come. But let me ask you these three things. And he asked me Do you speak Spanish? And I said yes, because of Vicarich, I, I had Spanish. And then, do you play soccer? You know like, wow, yes, yes you know I.

Speaker 3: 20:16

And then he asked me do you like people? Do you like people? I was thinking he was going to ask some maybe more profound theological question, right, maybe some Even practical, you know. But he asked me do you speak Spanish, do you play soccer and do you like people? And I said, yeah, then that's me. And he's like, well then, then, then you're the guy. You're the guy.

Speaker 3: 20:43

I was naive, the Tim. I was naive thinking that, you know, that was me. I was naive that he was only thinking that he was only speaking about speaking Spanish, playing soccer and and liking people. He actually was asking things more, you know, much more deep, from a missional point of view. Speaking Spanish was not just speaking Spanish. Speaking Spanish was speaking the language of people Speak or listen, as so we can understand each other. And that is way more than just speak Spanish or speak English or speak Portuguese. It's, it's understanding the culture.

Speaker 3: 21:24

Right, and playing soccer was not just about playing. Soccer was are you willing to meet people where they are, where they hang out, where they, where they need you, or are you gonna expect them to come where you are? And again, this is this can be, you know, seen from a geographical point of view, but from an existential point of view, theological point of view, spiritual point of and and liking people. You know it was just. This was not a feeling. You know is is it was. It was a very you know. So I mean I was naive and I had to learn throughout the years to actually do those, those things right.

Speaker 2: 22:08

It was on that that what a what a wise, what a wise Dissernian.

Speaker 2: 22:13

I don't know who that man was, but to to give you that confidence, I I've often said you know why did I go into this? I think our stories are similar, though our contexts have been different. I Love Jesus because I recognize how much he loves me and I want to do whatever it takes to get Jesus, by the power of the Spirit, into the hearts and lives of People, because I truly love people and want to see their life transformed by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Like that is my core. Why for church planning? For whatever, whatever it may be, jesus plus nothing. The gospel of Jesus is the hope of the world. It's a hope of every human heart and and and what I love about your story is it's not just a love for people, but you actually like being around people. The reason you. How many languages do you know?

Speaker 3: 23:07

Portuguese and Spanish, and barely right, barely Portuguese, spanish and English.

Speaker 2: 23:13

You do it pretty well bro but all that is based on communicating, listening, understanding and then being able to communicate. The Heart and mind of Jesus, your, your kind of life theme statement, is becoming all things to all people. All possible means might win some, and let the Holy Spirit do do the rest. So a shout out to that leader, that mission exec, whoever it was for helping you discern that, that call.

Speaker 3: 23:42

Let's name these guys because they were instrumental in my, in my, in my ministry, in my life. I don't recall exactly who said what, but like let's, let's say president Ken Lampy, I am sure that Terry Tiemann.

Speaker 3: 23:58

That was executive, terry Tiemann, and there was a pastor in Northwest Arkansas from Brazil was also part of that conversation the pastor donaldos. On that, all of these three guys, wise, and and, and they knew what they were, you know doing and they've been instrumental into my my you know, just learn, you know. Actually there was a fourth question, tim, that they said you know, after we finished the conversation. They're like okay, another question, like the things that you don't know, we apparently you know how to speak Spanish in place soccer and like people, the things that you don't know. Are you willing to learn? Wow, yeah, and thank God, because they gave me so much, they taught me so much, they sent me to so many different training programs and I highlight PLI on that that you know the things that I didn't know as I was planting a church. You know out of zero. You know it's important to be a life learner and just keep learning, keep learning and yeah, that's something that I yeah, I remember when I came here to Christ Greenfield and there were some strong characters.

Speaker 2: 25:19

This is a decade ago now. I was 31 at the time, and the head elder says, when stuff happens to you that you're unaware of how it's going to go, what are you going to do? Wow, I remember is this a trick question? Is this really complex? But I simply said because I'm very, you know, pragmatic. Straight to the point. I was like I'll just ask for help, Turdeli, Right, I'll just ask for help, Amen.

Speaker 2: 25:47

Because I got a lot to learn. That is the leader's journey is just asking for help, first from Jesus and then from others, over and over again. So how did you develop that kind of missionary mindset, that humble missionary mindset, and I'd love for you to go deeper in how you're passing that down to other missionaries that you're training right now. Turdeli, this is fantastic.

Speaker 3: 26:09

You know it was the situation that I was in, kim. Really I did not know the language or the culture, I was a guy out of seminary with not much experience. I mean that was maybe. Maybe if it was in a different situation, my pride in my, you know, erroneousity would play more into the situation. But I was without anything. I was, you know I was, I was in a situation that I need help. So I mean it was just. You know, the Lord put me in a situation when I had to.

Speaker 3: 26:51

So I don't take any credit for having that mindset of being a learner in that point of time.

Speaker 3: 27:00

I think maybe the Lord, knowing of my pride in and I confess to him, I can be, I can be, you know, my, my sinful nature is, you know, I got a monster inside of me. You know that that like to think that I know things and I have to be always vigilant with that monster man. But I think God, knowing that better than I do, he said okay, I'm not going to send you to a place where you think that you have everything figured out from the start. I'm going to put you in a place where you're going to say, yeah, I need help and and and. So that's how I started. God put me in a situation that I needed help and he put people around me to graciously, graciously, help me through it. And as, as I am helping people today, I, I, you know, I just keep encouraging them to, to, to, to, you know, to try that, to try that mindset of learning, learning every day from everyone. It's going to save you some headaches.

Speaker 2: 28:06

Truth, man, so so true. What are the other characteristics that you look, because now you're in San Diego developing kind of a missionary network, church planning network, in partnership with the Pacific Southwest District? What are the characteristics that you look for, in addition to humility in in church planners and missionaries?

Speaker 3: 28:26

Pretty much. Tim and I'm and again, this is a new call to me right, we from Arkansas. I went back to Brazil to plant another church in my mother country and my mother church in Brazil, in Rio de Janeiro. I thought that I knew how to do it and I had to learn so much in Rio. Yeah, it was amazing. I thought that after 10 years of planting a church in a sense successfully in Arkansas, that I was ready to go back to my country and rock and roll. You know, and, and, and, and I mean God, just you know, gave me so much to learn in, in, in, in my own country. But then I got this call just recently to San Diego and it's a privilege to be here Every time I come back to America, to our country, here, and, and I feel really grateful because the LCMS the LCMS was responsible to feed my ancestors with the gospel, the LCMS and the missionaries 120 years ago and I can tell you stories about that all day long, how they went and they sacrificed so much.

Speaker 3: 29:39

They left this country to go to a country that was kind of a mess and sacrificially they were missionaries in my country to reach out new people, but also the Germans who have the Lutheran faith. Thank God for the LCMS. I am here because the LCMS planted a Lutheran church in my country, so every time I had a chance to come back, I don't take it for granted. I value every day of helping the LCMS today. If the LCMS today need missionaries to reach out the global need that all of the cultures that are now living in this country, I'm happy to be one of them, because I think I'm off the question, the question that you paused, but I have to say this to you and to everyone listen to this podcast.

Speaker 3: 30:30

You know we have a beautiful story, we have a beautiful history of mission and if you go to other countries and you listen to stories, you're going to see how beautiful and important was the mission work of the LCMS in the past. And I am happy to be here today and as I'm here in San Diego learning this new ministry, a new call, and your question is how, what I'm looking at, the missionaries that we are looking for to raise, it's all about character. Okay, I mean all of the characteristics that I'm personally looking at focused. Is, you know, hardly humble, you know? Is this man, is this woman, where is you know his heart at? Is in Jesus, Is, you know? Is he willing to do mission or to to do ministry out of a holy motivation?

Speaker 3: 31:34

You know, what is all of the characteristics and requirements that we see in the Bible? That has to do with character skills. We can teach, Okay, yes, All day long. We can teach, you know, resources we can supply, we can supply Encouragement, we are here for them. But I'm, you know, I try to identify if in the heart that person is, is being really truly called by the Lord to, to, to lead and I think we can.

Speaker 2: 32:10

We can use maybe Luther's two kinds of righteousness as a good characteristic. Do they understand the love of Jesus?

Speaker 1: 32:16

for them.

Speaker 2: 32:17

Right and this deep, deep sense of gratitude. They've been baptized, claimed by the one true God. And then do they have a robust love for people? Do they do they? Do they connect well with people? Do they listen well? Are their people's skills strong? Are they, are they trustworthy, are they hardworking?

Speaker 2: 32:34

Are they humble, can they build a team? You know, this is all the things that the United Leadership Collective is all about in our work together and a lot of these, a lot of these leaders are in our existing churches waiting to be identified and they've never really seen. You know, can I be a missionary? Can I be trained to be a missionary, out in my respective vocation, kind of a bivocational or co-vocational call, that I'm not only, you know, working in IT, but I am actively being trained to listen well to my coworkers and then and then pray for opportunities to share the gospel of Jesus. Jesus Christ, why don't you talk? Because this is. I was so impressed with your presentation at the Pacific Southwest District pastors conference and I sent you an email right after that saying oh, my goodness, what you shared was so spectacular, brother. So first question, based off that presentation it does dovetail with the characteristics of leaders that we're looking for, missionaries that we're looking to raise up. Talk about the Great Commission being connected as really the Great Connection, great Commission and the Great Connection.

Speaker 3: 33:41

Okay, and we connect the imperatives of Jesus, tim. You know what he told us to do when you know what he said to his disciples. We have the Great Commission, of course, right, but we also have the Great Commandment, right. When you put these two together, right, we have a Great Connection right there. God sending us as a body, as a team, god sending us to before love other people to love each other. So in that sense I was talking about the Great Commandment plus the Great Commission equals the Great Connection. I don't know if that makes sense to you, tim, but I see that as a natural result of putting one and one together, two and two together.

Speaker 2: 34:38

Yeah, two sides of the same coin taking the gospel of Jesus Christ out with this discipleship, focused, baptized, teach and, at the same time, the love of God flowing down in our love for other people.

Speaker 2: 34:52

That is what the Holy Spirit uses to draw us into relationship with himself and a deeper relationship with one another. So you spend a lot of time talking about collaboration too, and collaboration is a huge, huge value for us in the United Leadership Collective. So talk about how pastors can learn to collaborate with other pastors in a spirit of friendship rather than competition or being just kind of oh my church and this church and that kind of thing, but as a missionary right in your various contexts, man, it's all about deepening friendship and connection, and this does something to our brain, doesn't it? I mean, I'm not alone. If stuff gets hard, which it will I know the love of Jesus and I've got a network of friends who care for me, are going to pray for me, love and support and challenge me appropriately. So where is this desire for pastors to work together? Where is it found in the spirit of friendship? Where do you find that?

Speaker 3: 35:47

most especially in the Word of God, okay well, I had a privilege to lead a Bible study in John 15, and in John 15, we have this, this, this commitment of love each other all over the place, and I think that is the ground of the calling to be connected in mission, not to go out in mission by yourself, but by going with your friends or with your church, with somebody else as a body, right. So the love one another is the ground. It's interesting how in John 15, and that is again the text that I really would invite people to take a look at it in John 15, jesus kind of specified, if you will, the kind of love that he's inviting us to practice for the sake of this connection in God's mission. Right, jesus speaks about friendship, love. Right, the filia love. Right, he says I no longer call you Dulus, I call you Phyllis, I call you friends. In a sense, john 15 is, is, is is a way of Jesus saying you know, my kingdom is a kingdom of friends, I'm sending you out as friends. And why this friendship, love is so powerful as we think about you, know God's mission.

Speaker 3: 37:19

I was using CS Lewis to help us with that and maybe we can see this differently, but CS Lewis would say, among other things, that Phyllis friendship love, the love that God uses as he talks about going out as a teen, as friends, phyllis friendship love is different than every other love because it's so intentional. You know it's not something that you know, it's born with us, we. You know we, when we are friends of someone. You know friendship is born intentional and it stays intentional. You know we don't fall into friendship. That's how CS Lewis would argue. We'd deliberate, make a decision to be a friend of someone and to stay in that relationship.

Speaker 3: 38:15

That's what Jesus did for us. He was intentional. He loved us intentionally, practically sacrificially, if you will, and that makes so much sense. And as we go out, because when people see that we are going out with somebody else, with us not because we are from the same tradition or from the same German background or from the same denomination or from the same culture or language, but we are going together because, intentionally, god called us to love each other. And we respond by the Holy Spirit saying, yeah, I don't agree with him 100% in this, but he is my brother, he's my friend in Christ and God is sending me with him into the mission field. It's intentional. Imagine the difference, someone that is being reached out or being helped by us working together despite our difference, because, intentionally, all the way we are friends, we have this love, friend, love relationship. I think that is so much, so more powerful for the world to see, for the world to see.

Speaker 2: 39:39

Well, it's so counter cultural, Tordelli, it is so counter cultural. The way of the world is power might makes right, win, win, compete, be better than the other. And the way of Jesus is Philippians 2. If there was one who was worthy of worship in the powerful place, it was Jesus, god in the flesh. And yet he humbled himself, even to the point of death on a cross, and it was through that humility that the Father elevated him.

Speaker 2: 40:11

And the same will happen for us, as we set aside you've said our differences, our various contacts, our various giftings, and recognize that, hey, I love the vine for a right of branch. I'm just hanging out what's the brand? I'm just hanging out as a branch. All this fruit is coming off of me. But, man, it's only because I'm connected to the vine. You're connected to the vine too. Hey, we're doing this thing together and I need your different. I need your gifts to make me whole, I need your friendship, and greater love is no one than this this was my confirmation versus someone laid down his life for his friends.

Speaker 2: 40:48

So how much more winsome would it be? And I don't know what the future holds in terms of persecution, maybe here in the United States of America of Christians in some way, shape or form, that could happen within my lifetime or in the generations to come. And would we look at the world, even our enemies, those that won us dead just like Jesus, and say I would lay down my life for you, why? Because I believe in the crucified and risen one who will pick it back up Again. I'm not living with fear, I'm living with faith, and I need friends. Pastors, we don't cultivate that friendship that well and I think this is, man, a huge opportunity for us in our winsome. Why do you think, tardelli, that it's difficult for leaders in particular to practice friendship, especially here in the United States of America, for leaders?

Speaker 3: 41:38

Well, I mean, because friendship is intentional, it doesn't happen automatically, right, you have to cultivate, right? So we have that first challenge right there. I mean, it's not going to happen if we don't do something, if we don't go out, if we don't allow ourselves to be in that relationship or even to cultivate that relationship. So that is one of the challenges of being friends as we go out, because it's got to be intentional, we're going to have to do something to cultivate that. We have the trust issue right and that is something we need to work on as a church body, as a senate, to build our trust. So if we are going to cultivate friendship, we need to build that trust, and to build that trust we need to spend time together. I think yes.

Speaker 3: 42:40

Quantity of time and quality of time. We went to a conference together last month. What a blessing that was for those who were there, open to engage, open to get to know people and listen to people and to learn from each other. So many of our brothers did not go to that conference and of course we can have good reasons for it. But when you don't go and that is the true for a worship service in the morning, when you are not there as a part of the group I'm not trying to speak guilty to anybody, but when you're not there, you're losing a tremendous opportunity. And it's not just about quantity of time that we're going to have to spend together, but quality. I mean, what does that look like? I mean it's not just also to be together.

Speaker 3: 43:38

A lot of times I think, at least in Brazil, that was an issue. We would have circuit meetings and I know you have done a beautiful work on a beautiful research that I based on my presentation on collaboration and you talk about the importance of the circuits in our structure, in our tradition, and we have these circuit winch holes or circuit meetings tremendous opportunities. Maybe not every circuit do it, but in Brazil we did. We did. In Brazil we had the meetings, let's say, among the pastors, but a lot of times we didn't have the time to just listen to each other's stories or what's going on in your life. It was more about business and theology. Nothing wrong with that. There was no time, no time to actually just open your hearts and just encourage one another and listen to each other good stories or sadness and stuff like that. So, building trust, spending time together to build that trust, spending good time together.

Speaker 2: 44:59

I think there's a lot of room for growth in relation to encouraging soul care at our circuit gatherings. And I don't know that pastors collectively, if we've learned the rhythm of asking deeper questions to care for the soul of our brother who is in our church, polity, right, I mean it's kind of the pastor, the pastor he's kind of the big deal you know and we don't. This is one of the struggles for pastors, right, who really bears our burdens and knows the crosses that we bear. Well, you can't look for that sort of encouragement from the congregation because they don't necessarily know, they don't have the second hand trauma of listening to, counseling and weeping with those who are grieving and things. But our brothers in the gospel do. So how do our circuit meetings become way more about not there's a my church doing, there's a my church doing, but way more about prayer and care for the souls of our brothers. And one of the exercises that we've done to cultivate that on our team over the years is called the emotional jug.

Speaker 2: 46:09

A lot of times men don't like to talk about the emotional jug but you kind of clean off. All of you remember old milk cartons. You've got all this stuff at the top, kind of the cream, which is actually really good stuff, but and you could say, this is good. So what is what's making you mad right now? Is there anything making you mad? Let me pray over that. What's so anger? What's making you sad right now? That's kind of a core emotion and pastors have a lot of sadness. Where are you anxious right now? And stories will come out that you may be anxious and then you finish with kind of the, the best cream on the top, which, what do you? What it's making you glad right now? What's filling your heart with joy and gratitude? Could we just ask more questions like that at our pastor gatherings? And then the stories naturally kind of bubble up there.

Speaker 2: 46:54

But what happens when we hear? Hear the good, the bad, the ugly of what's going on? Deeper friendship, we bear one another's burdens with one another. We can confess actually sin. Yeah, I'm struggling with with anger. We can hear absolution, like how often does a pastor get to hear that sin of pride, anger, overly anxious, like that is given to Jesus. It's been crucified with Christ. You are forgiven in the name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit. Could we practice, you know, private confession, absolution with one another? I think there's so many opportunities for growth at the, so I spent two years writing on this. So thank you for thank you for your reference to to that and, yeah, anything to add toward that desire for deeper friendship. And then I got one more question.

Speaker 3: 47:38

Well, you know, the, the, the, that theology or that doctrine that we have even in our confessions of the mutual fraternal consolation among brothers. Right, that is our theology of friendship, right there. But it's waiting for us to reclaim it to, to maybe to, you know, to, to renew it to, to put it into practice. And I think you're right on, we need to start with pastors, so as we practice this among ourselves, we'll be able to teach our congregations to do the same.

Speaker 2: 48:10

Yes, yes, for sure. And this dance we don't have time for this question but this dance is rooted in the in in the trinity. Well, no, this dance of friendship is rooted in the trinity. It's called the perichoresis, right, it's. It's the interconnection, the friendship that Jesus has with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Father, so deep trinitarian theology connected to to friendship. But I want to close with this one last question. You referenced one of my favorite people who I've interviewed on this podcast, reverend Dr Jeff Kloa, and his work on the trans congregational context is found in the New Testament. Talk about the trans congregational context, not just St Paul's or Christ Greenfield or whatever, but this like one church in a in area. Talk about that, turdeli.

Speaker 3: 48:56

I believe Professor Kloha saw that. You know the crisis in this topic. You know local churches don't get me wrong, they're so powerful, they're so the heart of so much that's happening in God's kingdom, the local church. But you know, at the same time, professor Kloha showed us in his article that the churches in the New Testament, they did not see themselves only as local churches or or they didn't see the local churches as islands, not at all. They, you know.

Speaker 3: 49:37

In his article, he, you know, shows in the New Testament different passages where he proves how the churches in the New Testament had this idea of being trans congregational. I think that is the expression that he uses. It's a congregation but who actually see itself, see herself working with other congregations, working with the circuit, with the synod, with the, you know, the churches in the area, but not just in the area, but you know all over the world. And Professor Kloha would mention that these churches would see themselves sharing, sharing communication, sharing practice, sharing a confession and sharing a mission. So you know, whatever belongs to those four topics communication, practice of the congregations, confession of the and mission it was a topic that the churches would see we don't have to, we don't have and we should not, you know, deal with this by ourselves. We have other congregations around us to help us, to guide us, or maybe to be guided by us, to be helped by us. It's a beautiful article and I recommend it to everyone.

Speaker 2: 51:05

Yeah, the American individualism has seeped into the church and that's gone to the corporate level of the individual congregation and I think at the best of the guts of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod Intention is to see ourselves as one church. You can have various names, various brands etc. But to say if there are felt needs. We've got different Word and Sacrament centers that may kind of look a little different because their context is a little bit different, but we're going to put the best construction on everything. We're going to stand on our common confession, scripture and the Lutheran confessions in our context. And then we're going to.

Speaker 2: 51:44

One of the best stories of collaboration is one of our ministries called La Mesa, here partnered with Beautiful Savior Lutheran Church in inner city Tempe and both groups, so an older congregation, beautiful Savior, they're benefiting. And then the community is benefiting as more of the working, poor and homeless are receiving a meal, many are being baptized, hearing the Word and then the body of Christ they're a beautiful Savior is starting to serve consistently. That's how friendship really develops is in this common mission to serve our community felt needs as well as the main need which is the gospel of Jesus Christ. So so good. I pray for more friendship, more trans congregational partnerships that develop.

Speaker 2: 52:28

If people want to connect with you, tardelli and I know you're speaking at a lot of different conferences right now If people want to connect with you, though, and hear your story, I just commend. If there are denominational leaders in the Lutheran Church of Missouri, send it who want to cultivate a missionary perspective in their circuit, in their district. Please reach out to Dr Dr Tardelli Voss. How could people connect with you though, brother, if they desire to do so?

Speaker 3: 52:57

Do you guys use WhatsApp? Whatsapp is all over the world, but not so much, I think, here in America. Well, WhatsApp, my phone number, messages, Facebook, Instagram.

Speaker 2: 53:12

And you're actually inviting me to a coffee, inviting me to a beer.

Speaker 3: 53:16

But I'm there, man, I am there, I'll do it. I'll do it, I'll love it. I crossed the ocean to be with you guys.

Speaker 2: 53:24

For a coffee or, in good German Lutheran tradition, or a beer. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. This is the American Reformation Podcast. We are committed to offering conversations, yet this conversation leaned more and more into the Lutheran tradition. But I know you heard, listener, this heart for the wider church locking arms on our common confession Jesus is a Lord. Please, please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take this in. We'll be back next week with another episode of American Reformation. Thank you so much, tardelli.

Speaker 3: 53:57

Thank you so much, tim, looking forward to see you soon.

Speaker 2: 54:00

Very soon Amen Coffee or a beer. We'll see how it goes. All right, God bless buddy.