What if we told you that being a pastor is more than just about leading a congregation? It's about personal transformation, confronting challenges, and navigating through isolation. Our guest today, Heath Luehmann, a seasoned church leader, and coach, brings in a fresh perspective about these under-discussed areas in pastoral leadership. Join us as Heath shares his findings from a study he conducted with over 50 pastors, shedding light on the top challenges they face, including burnout, conflict management, and the balance between personal and professional life.
The journey of a pastor can often feel like a lonely road, and most of them find themselves wrestling with isolation. This episode uncovers these struggles along with other challenges such as handling entitlement and navigating business skills. We delve into the importance of mental and spiritual well-being for pastors to serve their congregations effectively. We also explore the significance of peer-to-peer and mentor relationships providing crucial support to these spiritual leaders.
Furthermore, we navigate the complex dance of leadership within the church and the evolving landscape of the church community. With topics ranging from politics impacting church attendance to the holistic well-being of congregants, we unpack layers of pastoral leadership not often discussed. Join us as we ponder the challenges of remaining faithful to God’s word amidst a divisive society and close the episode with a glimpse of an impending American Reformation. Tune in for an enlightening discussion about standing for love, compassion, and the gospel as we prepare for the future. Don't miss out on this compelling conversation with Heath Luehmann.
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What if we told you that being a pastor is more than just about leading a congregation? It's about personal transformation, confronting challenges, and navigating through isolation. Our guest today, Heath Luehmann, a seasoned church leader, and coach, brings in a fresh perspective about these under-discussed areas in pastoral leadership. Join us as Heath shares his findings from a study he conducted with over 50 pastors, shedding light on the top challenges they face, including burnout, conflict management, and the balance between personal and professional life.
The journey of a pastor can often feel like a lonely road, and most of them find themselves wrestling with isolation. This episode uncovers these struggles along with other challenges such as handling entitlement and navigating business skills. We delve into the importance of mental and spiritual well-being for pastors to serve their congregations effectively. We also explore the significance of peer-to-peer and mentor relationships providing crucial support to these spiritual leaders.
Furthermore, we navigate the complex dance of leadership within the church and the evolving landscape of the church community. With topics ranging from politics impacting church attendance to the holistic well-being of congregants, we unpack layers of pastoral leadership not often discussed. Join us as we ponder the challenges of remaining faithful to God’s word amidst a divisive society and close the episode with a glimpse of an impending American Reformation. Tune in for an enlightening discussion about standing for love, compassion, and the gospel as we prepare for the future. Don't miss out on this compelling conversation with Heath Luehmann.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman here. Pray, the joy of the Lord is your strength as you lean into a conversation today with a longtime church leader in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. A teacher, a youth pastor type, a DCE, as well as a musician and now a coach, a leadership guru coach. His name is Heath Lumen. Heath is passionate about helping leaders make a great, huge impact. He has an executive coaching certificate from the Townsend Institute at Concordia, irvine. He's a local and national member of the International this is where I got trained as well the International Coaching Federation. Along with his degree in education, he has an MDiv from Bethel Seminary in St Paul, minnesota, with a specialization in spiritual formation. So much to talk about there.
Speaker 2:When he's not coaching, he's blessed to spend time with his wife, kristen, a certified coach specializing in health and wellness oh, my goodness, so much to talk about there His son, trace, who's active in music and sports. So thanks so much for hanging out with me today, heath. How you doing, bro. I'm doing great. It's my pleasure to be here, cool. So opening question, just to get us theologically geared up how are you praying as you look at the wider landscape of the American Christian Church. How are you praying for Reformation in this post-Christian day and age in which we find ourselves?
Speaker 3:Well, there's lots of things that I wish were better about the American Church, lots of things that I'd be like man if this was different. That would be awesome. But if I'm going to pray for change, I would probably pray that God changes me, because if God changes me, then I can be a force for good and help His kingdom come or do whatever needs to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah. How are you praying for Jesus most to change you right now, in this season?
Speaker 3:You know, just being aware of blind spots, being aware of the things that I do well, the things that I don't do well, being able to notice those things. As much as I've studied leadership, you know, learned how to use those coaching models. My wife is also a coach, like you mentioned. As much as we have these skills and tools, you know, it's not like we have a perfect relationship and it's all smooth all the time. So even the people that you're closest to you, like you, bump up into each other. You're sinful people. You're trying to live life the best you can, be more aware of what God is doing, and try to be a part of that.
Speaker 2:I think that's remarkably wise, brother. You know, if change is going to start, it starts with me first. A lot of times, we live remarkably unaware lives, right? The biggest thing I'm praying for for myself too is just increased self-awareness. That's another way to say what you just said. That man, I got gifts. I got gaps. I need a team. I most especially need the grace and mercy of Jesus. I've been blessed with a family. Lord Jesus, help me just to be present right where I am, and I'm so grateful to be present with you right now. So you reached out to me a little bit ago and you put together a study. I was really impressed by this study and we'll give a shout out to where you can find this study in just a little bit. But what compelled you to do a study of over 50 pastors in 2023? And what were you seeking to learn? And then I'll be interested to hear the top 10 challenges, as you did your research, that pastors are facing. So talk about that study.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I went through the executive coaching and consulting program at Concordia, irvine, the Townsend Institute. I got my certificate and it's really geared toward executive, ceo type people and the program is saying when you're looking at C-suite individuals, they have the skills complex group of people that they're trying to work with. They've got all their different departments. You got sales, you got the research and development, you got operations, you got accounting. You got all these different departments that are talking to you. And then you've also got the external pressures of what's the market doing, what's going on outside of the organization. So there's lots of competing forces inside and outside and everyone's got an agenda Everyone's coming in with. This is what I think you should be doing as the leader and there's a time for consulting. Like for a CEO to say I need a consultant to help me with this specific thing. But coaching is really saying the CEO is the expert, like they're coming in with the skills, the tools. They're in that position for a reason. So if they're the expert, how do they get clear about what's going on for them and how they can move forward the best?
Speaker 3:So when I was learning about how that applies to CEOs, I'm like man, I wish pastors had this because, being in church work my whole life, I see it with my pastors and my pastor's got a team there's three of them full time on staff that are doing this.
Speaker 3:But I grew up where there was just the one pastor, an island unto themselves out in the middle of the country, a rural church, and there's some other churches that they connected with. But just seeing how much more powerful could the kingdom of God be if pastors had these tools all the time. So before I just went out and said, hey, this is going to be helpful, I thought I should just find out what the biggest challenges are for lots of different pastors. So I started with the people that I knew and reached out. I had like 20 to start with and I kept getting like, oh, you should talk to this person, you should talk to this person, and end up with over 50 people that spent 15 to 30 minutes and I kind of caught you on the tail end of that and that was great.
Speaker 2:Oh man, it was so fun. So, before we get into those top 10 challenges that your research found in those conversations, what are the skills that in the church right? We're very, very hesitant and some folks would even, you know, turn this conversation as liberal. You're compromising the gospel because you're mentioning pastor and CEO. You're selling out to corporate America as we even look at some of those characteristics. I think that's short-sighted. I think you're just saying I don't want to hear what you say, but putting best construction on it.
Speaker 2:There are characteristics of high level leaders that could be helpful in the complexity you talk about running a business, a Fortune 500 company, and all the different departments et cetera. So even if you're a pastor of a smaller congregation with maybe an old school governance model where you've got all of these different, you know, kind of committees or boards at work, these are all respective departments, all with respective gifts and gaps, and how are they all going to play in the sandbox well, together. So what characteristics does the pastoral leader need to help those groups kind of keep the main thing, the main thing, the mission of God, reaching their community with the gospel, loving and challenging one another with respect and care, a deep friendship, right, I mean, there are so many skills that can be learned. So, as you looked at CEOs, what are those, maybe top three characteristics that you're like, man? If more pastors really knew how to work kind of within that kind of network model a smaller or large church man we'd be so much more healthy, anything to say there, those characteristics.
Speaker 3:I would say just leadership in general, like leadership qualities.
Speaker 3:As far as you know, what does it look like to be a leader?
Speaker 3:And it's not like a one size fits all, whether you're thinking about, like disc styles or you're thinking about, you know, any other ways of being a leader, like there's different approaches to that, but just being aware of who you are, what your team is like, noticing that it's you know, jesus was a different leader to different people at different times and I wouldn't say also, you know, trying to be aware of just how you interact with people, are you able to communicate clearly, are you able to have good feedback? You know that, whatever you're trying to do, you know that you're getting information back, that you are are having those channels so that there's continual improvement, like all of those different things are important within a church setting or not. And if I was coming across more saying like I think pastors need to be CEOs, like I don't think that that is where I was trying to go to, as much as saying I think there's a lot of crossover, I think there's a lot we can learn from each other, both ways.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, one of the good handles I love that. One of the good handles, that kind of categorize the characteristics of strong leaders, is this above or below the line it's a book that I've referenced a handful of times but above the line, humility over pride. And humility simply says I'm one person, I've got a lot to learn. I was just talking with Dr Reverend, dr Tardelli Voss man, and he was humility on overdrive he was. I don't know that I have a lot to offer. I feel like that so many times.
Speaker 2:Lord Jesus, I'm just the right next thing. Help me take the right next step with the right group of people who are around me. And the other hand, so this is this characteristic of kind of open up to the world. And then the other side is the base emotion is fear, right, fear is protective. What's the opposite of fear? The perfect love of God casts out. Oh. And so this says as I'm learning a lot, I have something to offer and I can bring love and care to other people. So this kind of sense of a right view of self, a humble view of self, but then at the same time, the Lord loves to elevate those who humble themselves, right. This is the dichotomous nature of the kingdom of God. These are the people, the humble people that the Lord wants to work to bring actually good into the world, to bring love into the world. So love over fear, humility over pride, anything to add to that toward leadership characteristics, heath.
Speaker 3:No, I like those. Yeah, paying attention to what's above the waterline and below the waterline yeah, you need both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And pride and fear are everywhere, and the more we identify them within ourselves first right this is what a good coaching conversation can help with the better we're able to bring them to the cross of Jesus Christ, receive absolution, and off we go empowered by the Holy Spirit. So let's dig into the top 10 challenges that you surveyed in the summer of 23. Biggest challenges Now, this is also in light of the post-COVID reality.
Speaker 2:Covid is like a curse word to me, heath. It feels like a weird, a weird dream. I was like why did we shut for two months? Like I don't, I'm never doing that again. It's like a dream I never want to go back to. I got scars, man, I got wounds. I was too intense on certain points, but we made it. We made it. I remained relationally connected to the key players in our congregation. So I have a little sense of godly pride and I think those of you who are out there that you're like you look around and you're like I'm not dead yet. You know, I'm still kicking, I'm still preaching the word, still gathering the saints together Like this. This is something that we should be rightly proud of God for just leading us through in many respects Anything though the COVID kind of wounds that that play in any of the conversations that you had with pastors. I'm curious about that.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. That came up and you're right, you made it, but you're better for it. Like we learned a lot throughout the whole process of COVID how to do online stuff better. You know why it's important to be together. Like sometimes that distance really helped. You realize, man, we need to come back together as people like the remote, learn um, worshiping online and everything. Like it's great. You'd want to make that experience as great as possible, but also there is something about being in the presence of of each other that is powerful and as much as we can learn and grow and what can we do, what, what things can kind of go away that we don't need, and how to be a good leader through all of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen. So here are. Here are the top 10 isolation, number one. Not surprising there, burnout being overworked. Leadership development Struggle to find good leaders. Number four changing culture. Man, that's huge. Five business skills we're not trained to do some of the things like financials, et cetera. You know falling attendance. You know there's rapid decline. How do we talk about the nature of the church entitlement? I'd like to. I'd like to talk about that one Honestly. Number eight mental health. Number nine support. And what we mean by support is a fostering more of a spirit of collaboration rather than competition between pastors and churches. And number 10, politics. Politics is right. What type of church are? Are you right or left? So any of those like surprise you at all, or or some like man, I kind of sense these themes would would come to the, to the fore. And, as these are kind of rank ordered and kind of what you heard, right from one to 10, isolation being kind of the number one challenge pastors are facing. So just talk about anything that surprised you in this discovery process.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, the things that didn't surprise me first, like just the attendance, the business skills like those seem like topics I hear from pastors pretty often. Especially there's fewer people come to the church. We've got bigger bills, you know inflation's running away. We've got a lot of good theological training, but not always. How do you, you know, work a spreadsheet to be able to keep track of everything? So the business skills and the attendance were things that I thought that'll probably come up. You know just how do you have more people come to church? It surprised me that isolation was number one, and it seemed like a lot of the people that I talked to, especially in the care world, they were not surprised at all, and even our latest Missouri district conference was all around mental health, being able to, you know, take care of the interior life as well as the exterior life. So that was pretty powerful to hear pastors talk about the isolation.
Speaker 2:Can you say? I love that each one of your kind of challenges comes with a quote being a pastor is a lonely road, such a lonely road. That's what you heard. So what did some of them say? Like how does that loneliness get expressed? Do you remember any of that heath?
Speaker 3:They talked about just having a burden on them all the time and not feeling like they're in a congregation. They're part of this group, not everyone. There are certain pastors. They seem to be like I am one with my congregation, I'm going to live my whole life here. I'll be buried in that cemetery. But most of them felt this distance Like as much as I am friends or friendly with the people in the church. It's hard to be friends. It's hard to have that reciprocal relationship. You know too much about too many people and all the different ins and outs and it just makes it hard, it makes it lonely. You try to talk to other pastors and sometimes they understand. Sometimes it's hard for them. You get unloaded on your wife when you go home but you can't tell her everything because you want her perspective on the church to be good and the different people, so a lot of those different forces just keeping them from feeling really connected.
Speaker 2:Well, sociology, I'll give you a response and I'll give you a story. Sociology is at play here. Mean words cannot come from those who are necessarily below us and below us. I don't mean this like hierarchy structure necessarily, but I do mean it. In shepherd and sheep, hopefully, the way we lead is taking the low place. But those that are in an organization say you're a direct report to, let's go back to the business, right, a direct report like to a CEO. The CEO should not expect to have their vase filled up with good, good water of encouragement and love and support, like to pray over them or something like that. That just is weird sociologically right. In our relationship with one another, god makes orders, god raises up leaders into certain positions, and so what this is a call for is peer to peer love and care, and care from a mentor who, a spiritual father or mother, who is above us, beyond us, outside of our respective contexts. And so are we developing those rhythms of peer to peer in the circuit level here in the Missouri Synod or whatever group of pastors? Maybe they're not even within your denomination. Maybe that is actually safer in many respects for you to start talking about what's going on, the peer to peer relationship and the spiritual father and mother. So I'm the story and I'd love to get your response on this.
Speaker 2:I've been, I was in a small group and if there's anybody from Christ Greenfield that's listening to this, put the best construction on everything.
Speaker 2:I was in a small group for a season and during COVID, because of a lot of the harder decisions, you felt truly like you were damned if you did, damned if you didn't.
Speaker 2:I mean it just was difficult, especially in leading a school and working with our principal, because leading a church is radically different than the customer, consumer perspective of those who are paying for education for their children.
Speaker 2:So that was very complex and I had a lot of strong church leaders who I counted as good friends and those who were connected to the school deeply in my small group. And I'll be honest with you, heath, there were a few times when I'd enter into conversation there where I ambushed is probably too strong of a word, but it wasn't far from that and that was. That was painful and so having to say I need to just be your pastor and I also need other friendships with people who are able to just see me as Tim and not as the senior leader that gets cornered when I'm here for spiritual edification amongst the body of Christ. That was very complex, bro, so and I found that by the grace of God, but, man, I need it. Covid told me I needed it more and more and more, and just developing those boundaries as well, because isolation is a real thing and you can get kind of kind of picked off.
Speaker 3:So any conversation, though sociologically or connected to that story, in terms of where we should expect like robust care and support and mental support and spiritual support to come from for pastors- yeah no, that's painful to think I am doing all this work, I'm making all these decisions, I'm doing my administrative tasks and now I'm going to go hang out with my small group, I'm going to get fed, I'm going to go there and for it just not to be a safe place and to feel ambushed, to feel and I would say, there's times like that all the time you know, day to day, even man, you just preach the best sermon in your life and then you feel like you get ambushed at the end like, oh my gosh, but didn't you hear all the great stuff that I just shared?
Speaker 3:And you know the challenges that come from that. So, absolutely, finding those people that you can trust, finding that place to be able to work through that, that calls you to be, you know, broken bread and crushed grapes, and it's hard, but it's also, you know, something, that he is going to give you what you need to continue to do that work too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thanks, thanks for that. Any other you said that kind of the business skills. Some of that wasn't surprising, but the isolation, how high of a felt need that that was. I think that is the number one thing as well. Any other surprises, though, in this top 10.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Entitlement wasn't one that I was expecting. You mentioned that too as you're going through, and some of it was the church members feeling entitled. So if you're a new pastor coming into a congregation or you're a young pastor and you've got a board, that's like. This is how things work, new pastor, and there's just this entitlement or these sacred cows of this program is just something we always do. It's always been done, figured out, like there's no way to get around this thing or this donation that was given or a lot of entitlement that way. Some of it, actually the entitlement, went both ways, though there are times that pastors would walk in and just feel like they had like feelings of entitlement, that they were owed certain respect or certain honor or certain responses because they were the pastor, and to see other pastors talk about like this is a hard dynamic looking back and forth. So I kind of lump those together of just this feeling of entitlement instead of feeling of curiosity or humility. Kind of back to the things that you were talking about earlier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the six words that many organizations and definitely are in churches that you hear consistently as, especially if they're struggling. If they're struggling is we've never done it that way. We've never done it, so I'm entitled toward my service at my time and all of these things that are really adiaphora. At the end of the day, they're more sociology than they are theology. Something to say, though, about how certain ways of doing life together in a community are more sociological than deeply feel and I think this is one of the calls of a pastor is to keep the main thing. The main thing, which is the love of God, which is theology, and then pastoral leadership is, then, all kind of the art of negotiation with folks to disappoint them at a rate in which they can handle and not kill you, or when I'm being hyperbole here, but leadership is changing that heart posture from. This is not about you saying is selfishness right? This is not just about us and our mission. Keeping the main thing, the main thing. Our mission to make Jesus known is the primary reason we gathered to be restory, to be resentered in his love for us and then sent out in our various vocations to bring the gospel of Jesus to folks, and many can see in the church that the church is a social club and especially when isolation not just a pastor's but humans is a big deal Like. No, we want to gather, we need to gather, but in our gathering we're here to be scattered and man that art of negotiation in churches.
Speaker 2:I'm hoping right now to land this plane. I'm hoping right now that there's more churches, especially smaller churches, that have a greater sense of urgency to reach their community with the gospel, that there's less and less of these entitlement kind of conversations that are taking place. I've got some anecdotal stories to see there could be a shift in trend right now, as the world is like the world is secularization, etc. That more of them maybe are getting above the fray or above the line and less of the audiophore conversations around should the pastor preach in the pulpit or should he be on the platform, and I was like I don't have time to worry about these things anymore. I'm hoping that's where we're trending. Any thoughts on that, though, heath?
Speaker 3:Yeah, just in response to that, trying to keep the main thing, the main thing I heard one church that was talking about putting in a sunset clause on every program that they did.
Speaker 3:So I can't remember if it was one year or two years, but after maybe one year or two years every program would die, Everything that the church did, I mean keep doing Sunday mornings and keep doing the things that are all in the church documents and the constitution for the church, but everything else it would run its course and it would be over, which would mean VBS, Vacation, Bible School, Like you do it two years and then it would be over. Unless there was a team of people that would come in and have such a strong argument saying I think we should reinstate this for another two years or whatever program it is how many programs are just out there and like, yeah, I guess we've always done it and kind of, we have this tradition so we should keep doing it. But just that gave them the freedom to say is this really important? Is this really going to take us where we're trying to go as a church?
Speaker 2:It's so much easier Heath to add than it is to cut Right. When I first came here yes, yes, yes, yes and then we had a retreat maybe like six months ago this says something about, probably, our team we had a huge list of stuff we should stop. And to the sunset clause thing. I think it's a fine exercise. But then the negotiation is well, who gets to be on the jury to make that final decision about the? Because it's so subjective, right. Is it a life change? Is it a financial change? I mean, what are our metrics to know if this respective ministry should continue or not?
Speaker 2:That is the nuanced dance of leadership. What we're not going to stop doing is gather around Word and Sacrament, right, and we're not going to start to stop inviting you into deep relationship with one another. But as a community changes and, it felt, needs change, we should be able to stop certain things and start other things to more tangibly care for the community. But that is so difficult, bro, that is a dance in a half with a build measure learn mindset for the pastor and for the leaders within the church. So entitlement, let's talk mental health. Older generations couldn't talk about mental health. This is your quote. Older generations don't have the resources. Say more about the necessity for talking about mental health.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say I kind of looked at that in different categories too. There were some that were like below 35. There are a lot of them were between 35 and 55 that I talked to and some of them were 55. And it seemed like it was out on the tip of their tongue. For the ones that were younger, just coming out of seminary, the one under 35. It's a topic that people can talk about For our age, kind of like this 35 to 55, it seems like it's not how we started, but people are talking about it more. So it seems like something that we should be paying attention to. And the people over 55, they're like we got this, we're almost done, we have a handle on what it means, what it takes, and maybe it's because they made it to age 55, being able to be strong enough to get the resources that they need. So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. I think that the generation appeared to be more open to talk about feelings and where those feelings are running awry and I need you know whether it's Jesus and maybe medication Jesus and working out Jesus and taking care of the flesh. Are you? Did you see any case studies of churches saying we need to care for the whole person? Any church is like I'm weighing to health and wellness and stuff.
Speaker 2:Any church is starting to do like workout and care and even talking about I think we ought to talk about nutrition in the church, like and how that impacts our brain and this gets political kind of quick but like how folks in the media et cetera maybe telling you stuff and leading you to buy make purchasing choices that are counter to now. I'm not going to preach on this necessarily, but I think we should be a space where we talk about care for the body that God has given to us. We're not Gnostics, right, so we should care for heart, body, mind, spirit all parts of ourselves. Any case studies, though, of churches like trying to elevate mental health as a topic?
Speaker 3:I would say there's lots of programs, there's lots of things that different ones have done. You know just saying how do you care about the whole person? How do you implement the nutrition? How do you implement the mental health? You know trying different things and it seems like you know, even I don't know if yoga is okay or not in some circles. You know, I think you're Holy yoga, holy yoga. If it's a religion, then maybe not. Yeah, exactly Exactly, but just even the stretching, moving your body.
Speaker 3:I think for a long time we have had this idea that we are thinking people that sometimes have feelings and are attached to this body. But we're really bodies that are feeling people and sometimes we're able to think about what's actually going on in our bodies and what's going on in our feelings. But to have those things integrated is not Like. We are very in our heads for so long, and even Lutherans are good at being in their heads and not necessarily connected to the rest of who you are and you're constantly taking information in through your whole body, not just through your ears with words. You know you're taking in all kinds of information and how do you care for your whole body? Because you know God gave that to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I'm hoping pastors start to model holistic well-being heart, body, mind, spirit. I have no shame in saying the first hour of my day is for self-care, right, I can't function the rest of my day unless that first hour on the morning, on the day. So the water, the workout, the stretching, the sweating, all of getting the toxins out that are all around us, right. And then I can kind of enter in, and it's not for vanity's sake, right. But you know there could be a part of me at motivation whatever, but I mean that the core of that motivation is I just know my mind is going to be sharper if I take care of the rest of my body, and so can we just have sensitivity for one another on our respective journeys. And this is not a legalistic thing, it's just a Holy Spirit-inspired thing to honor the temple of the Holy Spirit which God has given to us.
Speaker 2:As we're looking at the bottom one, I can't not talk about politics and the church. So here's your quote politics is driving church attendance more than theology, if there is one. This is difficult, man, pastor. I get so many emails and texts, like you got to watch this video and you know David, jeremiah, stuff on eschatology and Israel and all this kind of stuff. And then you know, I've got a number of people who are very, very politically minded. And I live in Arizona, phoenix, eastern East Valley of Phoenix, and so you can kind of guess, a number of our folks voted significantly in one direction and therefore our hospitality for those who have a different perspective. It is difficult. You're a red church, right. I don't know if you welcome, but yet here's the thing Christians are red and blue, like we're, and maybe this is a better way to talk about politics.
Speaker 2:We're above because our head and our hearts are seated where Christ is above. So some of the values that we have are going to look more left. Some of the values are going to look more right. What is our rule and norm? It's the word of God, heath. Right, if God's word says it, I believe it.
Speaker 2:Now that sounds super simple and clean, but I think then that should just lead us to this kind of I don't know if the Bible says it and we're heading into a political season and people are talking about it. We're not going to like shy away from it, but we're going to set our mind. We're going to have this conversation at a place that is above Rather than rather than below, and Lutheran theology gives us all the handles right and left-hand kingdom to talk about a lot of this, but at the very same time, how much more I'd love to get your this is my last comment how much more are people listening to their respective channels than to people talking about Jesus and talking about caring for the poor, going on mission to make Jesus known, and to one 20 to one in terms of time spent worrying about things, most of which are outside of our control? Anyways, like you know, I'm praying for the persecuted Jews right now and there's a lot of stuff, but I can't, you know I can.
Speaker 2:I can say I stand with certain groups and I guess that has some. But man, god better, god better, work and move, or else we're all. We're all lost man. So, yeah, you hear me just kind of ranting about this political, hyper-political, polarized culture in which we find ourselves and not wanting to feed into it, and at the same time, speak clearly about what God says. Anything to add to that Heath it is so hard.
Speaker 3:It is a fine line, it is a balancing act. You're trying to care about people. I think 30 years ago, if you would have said it, like I don't know, that it would have been even conceivable. But people are more committed to their political parties than they are to their church Right now that they have more allegiance To whatever their political views are. So that is their filter going into church as opposed to going into politics. Using the, the word, using their, their church connections as a filter for how to understand, interacting with the world. But that's, that's the culture that we're in right now.
Speaker 3:And how do you respond to it? It's, it is so hard because you're gonna offend someone one way or the other, no matter what you say, even the subtleties, even the way that you start to talk about a subject, it's. It's not the big you stand with one party or the other, it's even the subtle nuances and, like I've heard that before, I know where you're coming from. That's dangerous. We're gonna shut you down and it's just Overwhelming. And it it's happened in pockets, though it wasn't all across the country. I found Especially a hotbed in the Twin Cities area in Minnesota. Like it, like each pastor that I talked to in that part of the world it was a charged topic even more than other places. It's hard everywhere.
Speaker 2:But you know, with the George Floyd stuff, with All the unrest with with things that are happening in that state, like that is hard hmm yeah, it's a, it's very, very charged and yeah, I wasn't in as charged of an area and if I feel it, imagine, yeah, twin Cities, chicago, la, a lot of our urban, our urban centers. So can we just cultivate the muscle to To walk right up to what God says and say no more and no less than than what he says? That's the only place I can kind of stand and where we see evil in the world and in so far as we have a platform or the ability to influence, are we influencing people more and more toward the fruit of the spirit? What does media want to do? He media wants to make us angry, keep him angry, keep him anxious, right Fainting that's what the?
Speaker 2:clickbait man, right? If I can say things in a charged way that divides, destroys, tears down, makes people angry, then I gather a willing coalition of people around me and we're different in that group and they're the enemy and all this. That is not the way of Jesus. Jesus came to seek and to save the loss. Jesus came to love enemies. Jesus came and died for those who hung him on a Roman cross, right.
Speaker 2:And if if there's any of us that are trying to pridefully position ourselves as the right type of church, I'm telling you that's not. That's not the appropriate posture with. The appropriate posture is I have no right to be in the presence of a holy Other God. I am a sinner through and through, and yet, by the mercy and grace of God, I have been saved. I've been loved. I've been given this Huge invitation to bring love and light into a dark and dying world. That is, that is my call, and it's only by the power of the Holy Spirit living within me, the spirit of the risen Jesus Living within me, that anything good is gonna come, because if it's connected to the world, it's gonna be angry, it's gonna be divisive, and the church needs to stand united today more than ever, because I the days are short, man I really believe I'd love to get your take on on this.
Speaker 2:We've always, over the last 2000 years, believed that Jesus could come at any time. We're a Millennial right, we're in the season of the church, awaiting the restoration of all things when Jesus Returns. But there are so many pieces and as I kind of look from above, there are so many pieces kind of leading toward who knows what the geopolitical scene kind of looks like. If we're heading into like many say, we're worth three, I know a multiple front possible war. The United States gets in and then you've got Just what social media does to divide us. I think Christ could be coming back pretty soon and I think it's going to get more difficult for us to remain Confessing, conservative, biblically based Christians now more than ever so I'm praying like that are that are. Lion spirit, especially for leaders, kind of rises up and the lion spirit of the lion of Judah Rises up within us. Any thoughts about the day and age in which we find ourselves? Heath, yeah, I think it is divisive.
Speaker 3:I think there's a lot of powers. I think we're choosing the wrong thing to be divisive about, and there's a time to stand up and say this is where I stand, this is where I'm gonna plant my fat flag, and it seems like we are not always picking the right things to plant our flags in and and. And how do you do things that build up people? And how do you, if you're gonna take a stand, take a stand for love, for caring about people, for for showing compassion, for sharing the gospel? How do you do that? And You're right, you want to.
Speaker 3:The days are dark, this is hard, and come Lord Jesus, come quickly and and and yet you want to prepare for the future. You want to say there were hard times before. I Hear a story you, you read about World War two and just the the end of all wars, or you know how, how hard that was for so many people in so many different places, and and awful things if have happened all around the world and and God has Continued to allow us to keep going. So you know, be ready for Jesus to come back at any time. And also say if my lot on life is to live to 8090, whatever it. Let me be ready to handle that too. God, god, give me the strength.
Speaker 2:So, man, man, it's all about him. Last, last question here as a Train coach, we're at the. You all see, men, we're super strong advocates of lifelong learning and self-discovery, which is the best discovery centered in the word of God, for for leaders. Why is coaching so necessary for leaders, especially in this day and age in which we find ourselves?
Speaker 3:Coaching is becoming aware of your blind spots, trying to learn more about what is happening around you, more More self-awareness, like what you brought up earlier. To seek first to to understand someone else rather than to To just be understood, to speak and have people hear you. That that coaching is is bringing an awareness so that you can be who God creates you to be, to go forward and do it in a powerful way. I would say that is the biggest thing there's. There's a power in doing Doing that work and having someone Attune to you, someone be able to pay attention to who you are and have that connection. That it's not just a self-help book that you're reading and it's got some good points that, oh, I could apply these. But you need some kind of mirror, some active force that is is looking into who you are, so that they can speak truth back into your life and God is able to speak through them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, in a powerful way. So thank you for doing what you do, thanks for your curiosity, for producing this study. If people want the, the study and to just follow you in general More, do you have any other kind of studies, research coming out and even you can tout. I know you're doing coaching, leadership, coaching in general, so please share how people could connect with you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've got a website. That's where the the study is, and I kind of did an article on each one of those different, with some more quotes and some more details For each one of those top 10, but the websites lumen, growth, calm If you're able to spell my last name, that's always the tricky part.
Speaker 2:It's got a bunch of German letters that are extra in there, but yeah, l U E H M A N N, l U E H M A N Growth Dot com, and then you can find that that study there. This has been so much fun, heath, and you're a gift to the body of Christ, praying for you in this new season of life and ministry. Thanks for your humble curiosity and I'd love to have you back again sometime in the future. Man, you're a gift. This is the American Reformation podcast. Sharing is caring. Please like, subscribe, comment. We continue to have conversations like this with leaders Simply looking to get better and recognizing the day and age in which we find ourselves. It's an awesome time to be the people of God, centered in the story of God's love for us. Thanks so much, heath. This has been fun and my pleasure.
Speaker 3:Thanks, tim, keep it up you.