Embark with us as Reverend Dr. Dennis Matyas unpacks the profound impact of preaching in shaping the Lutheran faith tradition. In a time where the spoken word competes with a digital cacophony, Dr. Matyas reignites the essence of the pastor's role as a beacon for the community, emphasizing how the vibrancy of sermonizing breathes life into Christian doctrine. Together, we traverse the historical significance of figures like Martin Luther and explore the necessity of dynamic preaching in sustaining individual and communal belief.
As we peel back the layers of Lutheran homiletics, Dr. Matyas and I tackle the delicate balance between confessional adherence and the preacher's personal touch. Delving into my doctoral research, we uncover the subtle influence of a preacher's identity on their sermons, from the cadence of their speech to the depth of their convictions. Unearth the crucial role of the preacher's humanity in sermon delivery, and listen closely as we navigate the complex intersection of identity politics, intersectionality, and pastoral care in the contemporary church landscape.
Our journey culminates in a heartfelt reflection on the narrative of Lazarus, drawing parallels to the modern-day challenges faced by the faithful. Gleaning lessons from scripture, we touch upon the essence of Christ-centered preaching and the significance of prayer in guiding those who shepherd the flock. This episode is not just a conversation; it's an invitation to witness the transformative power of a message anchored in the hope of Jesus Christ and to contribute to a reformation that brings us back to our core Christian convictions.
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Embark with us as Reverend Dr. Dennis Matyas unpacks the profound impact of preaching in shaping the Lutheran faith tradition. In a time where the spoken word competes with a digital cacophony, Dr. Matyas reignites the essence of the pastor's role as a beacon for the community, emphasizing how the vibrancy of sermonizing breathes life into Christian doctrine. Together, we traverse the historical significance of figures like Martin Luther and explore the necessity of dynamic preaching in sustaining individual and communal belief.
As we peel back the layers of Lutheran homiletics, Dr. Matyas and I tackle the delicate balance between confessional adherence and the preacher's personal touch. Delving into my doctoral research, we uncover the subtle influence of a preacher's identity on their sermons, from the cadence of their speech to the depth of their convictions. Unearth the crucial role of the preacher's humanity in sermon delivery, and listen closely as we navigate the complex intersection of identity politics, intersectionality, and pastoral care in the contemporary church landscape.
Our journey culminates in a heartfelt reflection on the narrative of Lazarus, drawing parallels to the modern-day challenges faced by the faithful. Gleaning lessons from scripture, we touch upon the essence of Christ-centered preaching and the significance of prayer in guiding those who shepherd the flock. This episode is not just a conversation; it's an invitation to witness the transformative power of a message anchored in the hope of Jesus Christ and to contribute to a reformation that brings us back to our core Christian convictions.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray wherever you're listening to this podcast, enjoy the Lord In your baptismal identity is strong and fueling you for a life of meaning and purpose centered in your identity in Christ. You are His. Today I get the privilege of hanging out with one of my favorite humans on planet Earth. I got a lot of favorite humans, come on. No, no, no. As I look over the 15 years of getting to be a pastor, getting to have Reverend Dr Dennis Matthias as a vicar with me some gosh, what, 12 years ago now, maybe 13 13 years ago.
Speaker 2:13 was such an amazing privilege. So let me give you the brief bio that Dennis gave to me. This gives you a little bit of insight into his personality. Dennis W Matthias was baptized in 1984. A year later he earned an STM, a Masters of Sacred Theology in New Testament and a PhD in homiletics. That's what we're talking about today, both from Concordia Seminary in St Louis. He currently serves as a pastor of an LCMS congregation in Bay City, michigan, and a guest instructor in homiletics for the SMP program out of Concordia, st Louis. Shout out to all of our SMP brothers so so grateful for you. He is married to Valerie, a Lutheran grade school principal, and they have four wonderful children, olivia being the oldest who. I got the privilege of baptizing gosh some 13 years ago or so 13 years ago.
Speaker 2:Jesus is so, so good, so thanks for hanging in today. Dennis, thanks for asking me A standard opening question. Yeah, man, standard opening question. As we're praying for Reformation in the American Christian Church in these post-Christian or pre-Pagan times, how are you praying for Reformation, brother? This is going to be fun.
Speaker 3:Preaching, preaching, preaching, preaching. So it's all I care about. I know it's not all I care about, but preaching I think. Preach better, preach harder, preach longer, preach like you mean it preach, preach, preach. All in your craft. How did you Get it right?
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it so well, luther. I mean, we titled this Reformation because we really believe in the Lutheran Reformation Grace-centered, sola-centered story. Talk about the role that preaching played. I don't think I even put this as a question, dennis, but the role that Can you roll with the punches. The role that preaching played in the Reformation, namely in the life of Luther.
Speaker 3:Well. So when Luther and the Reformers recovered the word of God, they along with it, they also recovered the role of what the pastor actually is. And so, before you know, in medieval times, and for I don't know how many centuries before that you know, colb's Enduring Word of God book is really good as a resource for this but he was like the sacrificial guy, he was like the ex-Aparaparato guy and he was, you know, do this. And so when the Lutheran and the Reformers recovered the word of God, they recovered it for the entire life of the church, including the pastor. So the pastor was one who actually lived with the people, suffered with the people, celebrated with the people, incorporated their lives into his life and applied everything in the word of God towards the people.
Speaker 3:So preaching was the lifeblood of the church, and the Confessions bear this out too. I mean we all not pit the sacraments against each other and say like, well, you know, if the sermon fails, well, at least we have the sacrament, which is kind of a joke that we make, but it's, it's, they're all important. You can't pit the sacraments against each other, and the means of grace delivered in the word of God is everything. The world was created by the word and the word was made flesh, the word it preaches. How can they hear? Unless they hear, I mean, yeah, it's everything, it's all salvation. It's all we have is the word.
Speaker 2:We got into a fantastic debate recently, dennis on can faith come from reading or does faith come solely by hearing? And where we, where we landed based on the word, is that that faith comes through hearing? I can't forgive my sins, right, I can't read my sins away. I need someone, a preacher, a proclamer, to say, in the stead and by the command of my Lord, jesus Christ, and we can do this, lay people, lay people to brother to brother to brother, sister to sister. We should use your concentration. You are forgiven. We have to pronounce these words of absolution. So any, any comments? Because the Reformation was a reading journey, right, I mean, a lot of times you talk about the Gutenberg press, right, and we got the word into the common man's head and hearts. But that didn't did not discount the need for deep, deep preaching from a pastor in a pulpit to a people in a certain time and place. Any comment on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I mean you have the words of Paul saying faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God. But I think it would be a miss, it would be a bit reductive to say if I read a verse from scripture saying my sins have been forgiven, I can't really believe that until somebody says it out loud or something like that. Sure, I mean I kind of aligned between the written word of God and the spoken word of God. I mean it was three forms of the word of God the personal word, jesus Christ, this written word which guides, guards and never norms our faith in life, and then the. And then the spoken word.
Speaker 3:And Luther put the spoken word as the primacy because, like the Ethiopian eunuch, what am I reading? I don't, I don't understand. So you need somebody to actually apply it and say no, no, no, this is for you. So I I haven't met too many people. I don't think I've met anybody who just said you know what? I'm in a hotel, I'm going to pick up the Gideon Bible and, poof, I'm a Christian. Now it all happens in community. But I don't think you should like discount. Yeah, we can't discount. Like the written word is the written testimony of the spoken word, it's what it is and it's all, it's all spirit governance spirit guided.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, amen. So I remember, I remember on Vickridge, because God gave you a big voice, a big personality and all different personality types should be in the and a big ad to you.
Speaker 2:all that and all the big brain, you got a big brain. God gave you all of that for a purpose and I love working with all different types of pastors, learning with and from all different types of of pastors, but I had never had a Vickr who was as robustly resolute in memorizing, internalizing and in preparation for for proclaiming the word of God. And I've had some amazing, I've had some amazing Vickers, but I remember you audibly practicing your sermon in your in your office. It was very I'm like trying to. I'm on a call or something like man Dennis, listen to this guy go to town.
Speaker 2:You know, how did you? How did you develop your love for rhetoric and homiletics? How did that rest in you?
Speaker 3:Well, first I gotta say you, you were like a big brother to me that year so that I've got, you know, a butter your bread there for a second, you tremendous adoration and we've we've got a Tim Almond ism in our house. You know that's. You know you like safe phrases. So we were doing the table it was the service that we had during the week and then a bunch of us, like the band, went out to Bdubs or something and a John language and Tory, who I think they're married with kids now. Like they're facts, they weren't dating yet but they were like kind of right there and we walk in, we're waiting for a table, and Tim Almond goes up and goes, hey, guys dating yet up top and like it was the most awkward and we're like what?
Speaker 1:It was good.
Speaker 3:But then later that night John was like so you want to, you want to date, like faster said we should. You know so. So in our house the Almond ism is up top Like that's, that's our thing. We've been saying it for 13 years. So anyway, yeah, I love preaching. That one was for you, this is for everybody else.
Speaker 3:My love of preaching came from. I wasn't raised Lutheran. Joined this Lutheran church when I was 20 years old, went to Concordia, ann Arbor, read the Confessions and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is it. I have a decision to make. I can either keep following, you know, it was in the Evangelical Church and kind of bopping around here and elsewhere. Every place was skimmed milk and it was musician, still-in-man musician. It was really heavy into theater, performance, love being in front of a crowd.
Speaker 3:And when I became a Lutheran I was going to all these Lutheran churches and, with a couple of exceptions, like falling asleep, what is going on Like this is the greatest message, the greatest explanation of the doctrine of Scripture ever in the entire world. And like some of the pastors act like they're like inconvenience that there are other people in the room or that it's just a job. You just. I gotta write this down and click, click, click, check all these boxes and I'm gonna read this thing to you. I know how to read so you can just hand it to me and I can get out of here and get some lunch, and so it just drove me nuts and so when I went to the seminary I'm like we gotta do better. I can do better.
Speaker 3:That was just my personal goal and became quite a big passion Because, say what you will about the Evangelical Church, they may not be teaching properly, but they can hold a crowd. They can hold a crowd and people keep going back because they create an experience. And that's what the sermon is. It's an event in time that experiences the Word of God with the people where they are. So that was, yeah, my preaching journey over the last. I've been a pastor 11 years, so if you count, you know when I started in preaching and a vicarage or right before that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know it develops over time. I used to write everything out and then memorize it and it took forever and it was like the worst part of my week is memorizing what I already wrote. And then eventually, over time, it developed to a more oral writing style, to where, now that I've just sold short on time, that I haven't written down a sermon in you know, for a Sunday morning, I think, in like six years or something like that, for special services, like you know, funerals I might. But yeah, so that's where the passion came from.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it. So let's dig into this. A lot of folks in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod listened to the podcast and they'll know that we're aiming, with the United Leadership Collective, to dismiss the two sides of the same coin argument between confessional and mission minded Lutheranism, and I think along those spectrums you can have some who are the more conservative and conservative confessional Lutherans, but then they're they're preaching, because I think we have these labels that I can't show like any personality. And so you have this kind of and I'm painting with a broad brush here, but this kind of wooden, depersonalized and even maybe a preacher voice like hey man, are you, is this really you, or is this some persona that you're kind of putting on? And then on the other end of the spectrum, you know and this is where folks may kind of label me you've got your more charismatic. I just didn't think I was going to a Baptist church, but it's more about the.
Speaker 2:It's more about the preaching style than it is, or my personality than it is about the content of the message. Right, because we're all under the umbrella of confessional Lutheranism. So just give me your opinion on the kind of spectrum of wooden preaching to overly charismatic and the freedom I think that we should have as as uniquely made our personalities being given by God, but then to really strive toward excellence in the preaching craft, because I don't, I don't think the wooden red message is the way to go.
Speaker 3:That's not excellent. It could be the best written sermon in the world, but it can just flop. It could just absolutely flop. I like the way that conversation goes. I this is largely that a lot of the work that I did in my dissertation had to get do with getting behind the philosophy homo letical philosophy behind that personality of the preacher. And I would actually argue that the guys that stand up and do the wooden rote are exhibiting their personality, not that they're like wooden personalities, but insofar as their, their study and their preparation for their sermon has been formed in a certain way that comes out in the sermon. So what I mean is, if you are like the I'm not going to use the right left analogies you know, just because we're all in this together.
Speaker 3:But if you, if your modus operandi is maintaining confessionalism to the exclusion of everything else, even if even if it's not the goal, it's maybe implicit or something then you're probably more likely to be careful enough in the construction of your sermon to check the boxes like a checklist, like okay, I've done my textual study of properly distinguished between the long gospel, I've done a literal proclamation, I've maybe have a page number, length or something like that, and they're so fearful if I get this wrong then I will be unfaithful to my task.
Speaker 3:So I'm going to stick to this script and I'm going to deliver it and I'm going to trust that the word of God works, whereas on the other end of the spectrum you might have someone that says look, I'm a living, breathing guy, I've encountered the text, I live with these people, I'm going to deliver that and if I stumble over a couple words or if I get a little passionate or whatever on one side, god will overlook that and the word will still do what the word does and the sermon is still the word of God. So I think really both guys are kind of doing the same thing and it really does depend on their, the personality, what, what comes out.
Speaker 2:So tell us a little bit about your you hinted at it your doctoral study. Say more what you, what you found. I think this is fascinating.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'll give you the short version. It took a long time it was like three years with what hardest thing I've ever done but basically I recovered the person of the preacher as a foundational homiletic in Lutheran homiletics. So, and then I'll get to the application of that in a second. So we have certain foundations, we've got the, the word of God, of course, word word, word, word, word, and then, deeper than that, is proper distinction between law and gospel, and then you have the proclamation of the gospel, and then it's within a sacramental sending, so it's within the divine service. So homiletically, it's foundational to Lutheran homiletics. It's actually in a particular spot. I wouldn't call. You know, my son at the dinner table telling me a story about Jesus is not, strictly speaking, a sermon, you know, maybe the word of God, validated by the word of God, qua word of God. It's all circular reasoning. Welcome to Lutheranism.
Speaker 3:So, but within that which we talked about a little bit earlier, the reformers, when they recovered the word, they also recovered the pastoral ministry, and instead of being a sacrifice offeror or just some guy that does these tasks, he's actually a person. And so they had all these in the first 100 years of the Reformation, or so. They had all these pastoral manuals and many of them have not been translated into English, and they give notes on how to live amongst people. They assumed that the pastors had the support structure of, say, what we would call circuits or something. They would have that support so that those older guys could, like show them, okay, here's how you do the worship, or here's how you, you know, take care of administrative stuff or whatever. And these manuals would talk about how to actually be a dude that serves people, be a guy that serves people. I mean down to like crazy details like how much should you drink when you go to a wedding, like those are like the kind of details that they tell that's very useful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so they did all that and so there was always kind of a part of the zeitgeist. And then what? What might surprise a lot of people? What surprised me, frankly, when I dug into it a little deeper, is that we have all these historical Lutheran voices that talk very pointedly about the preacher as a person. Guys like Wilhelm Lea was all about this.
Speaker 3:Cfw Walther, in the proper distinction between the law and gospel, had a lot to say. But there's a whole reason. Why he gave those lectures was because I didn't want you to stand in your pulp. It's like lifeless statues Elsewhere. He says don't drone on like you're announcing a funeral, but go like one wooing a bride, which I think it's like a beautiful analogy. Like preach like you're wooing a bride, like you're like you're asking a girl to marry her. And there's some other voices in there too. And then somewhere around the mid 20th century, I have my own theories as to why this happened. We just kind of stopped talking about it. I think there was maybe a circling of the wagons, probably the walkout 50 years ago.
Speaker 3:You know this battle for the Bible, the supremacy of the word, and so a lot of, a lot of times people will feel like. If we talk about the preacher as a person at all, then we're somehow supplanting the word of God or we're doing some sort of ice to Jesus, or adding ourselves or giving our own authority above the word, which is not at all to be accepted. The word, the word, the word, the word, the word, the word, the word, the word, the word. But I preach in my pulpit.
Speaker 3:If you, tim, were to get into my pulpit, it would be something totally different. It would be a completely different experience for the hearers, for you, for me, for, and we could have the exact same exegesis. We could even preach the exact same sermon. We could memorize a script and deliver it. It'll still be different, it has to be different. And then, once it's gone, once it's over, you say amen, the event of a sermon is over, and it's like the smell of ozone after a lightning storm. It's just shh, there it is. The spirit works like that and let's get ready for next Sunday. So I forget what was the question.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that was the first part.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but go ahead and interject there.
Speaker 2:The rest of the part, I think is fascinating too, but I want to come back to more of the findings, but I think having this conversation could be the catalyst, dennis, for uniting brothers in the work of ministry from the circuit.
Speaker 3:That was a goal man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, from the circuit out to the districts. I talked to so many people in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. They're like what is going on? And I think I don't think the battle today, the struggle, is theological. I really think it's sociological. It's sociological and these, how do we have empathy? I just interviewed some folks who are counselors have empathy, contextual hospitality for a brother preaching in a different pulpit, in a different context, right. And then how do we, how do we recognize the gifts and gaps of my personality, all under the umbrella of confessional Lutheranism? We should, we need one another, and it's just using the Apostle Paul's for Corinthians 12, romans 12, the gifts of the body of Christ. Where would I be apart from Dennis? Where would Dennis be apart from me? And down the line you know. So I think respecting one another's preaching task in their unique context and their unique preaching style, all under the umbrella of confessional Lutheranism, can unite the church body. What are your thoughts on Dennis?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I agree 100%. That was one of the goals that as I approached my dissertation albeit it was kind of a secondary goal, but yeah, who are you to judge another servant of your master? And I think that this comes with time and maturity and being comfortable in your own skin as a preacher. That now, like when I was a student, I would constantly scrutinize everything. You know, you go to chapel every day and you're like, well, that one sucked and that one's great. And there was only one time though and I will not say what was there was only one time I walked into the chapel and I saw who was preaching and I turn around and walked out. God forgive me. I felt bad about it later, but now, like nobody saw me, but I'm like I can't, I had too much homework or something. I was in a bad mood.
Speaker 2:You were forgiven, yeah thank you.
Speaker 3:The real impetus for my dissertation was the identity politics and intersectionality that was going on in this country and you gotta remember I started I delivered my prospectus hearing in the summer of 2020.
Speaker 3:So I was like thick into this.
Speaker 3:So we're talking, like you know, white fragility and everybody's a racist and you know the the homiletical academy has never stopped talking about the person of the preacher.
Speaker 3:Lutherans did took a break for a while and now we're kind of starting to again see the value in it. But the the rest of the academy never stopped and you can imagine what they did, you know, in the seventies and eighties and they started talking about the identity of the people who are listening and then that logically then followed the identity of the preacher who's actually preaching. So sometimes it works very well and it's very interesting and edifying. For example, there's a whole branch of homiletics devoted to African American preaching because it's very unique and obviously contingent on a certain type of personality and culture. Negatively, you have, like women preaching and intersectionality and all this stuff to the point where you have there are works out there where people will literally say like there was one Episcopal preacher who said in order for the church to show the love of Jesus Christ, there must be a white repentance which automatically invalidates the word of God coming from any white white voice.
Speaker 3:So the trick that I ran into was how to? How to counter that without simply writing it off, because we're really good at just writing that off and like, oh, they're crazy, they're preaching heresy, whatever, but we're not having the same conversation where two ships passing in the night. So how do I do that and not come across like it's some sort of like white apologetic, like some? Somehow I'm trying to like reclaim white voices from the pulpit because, frankly, I couldn't care less about that. What I did was I would offer a counter to the Academy by locating the person, the preacher, as foundational to the homiletic but formational to the sermon. So it's a foundational fact that a sermon is delivered by you. The guy stands up there and delivers a sermon. That's foundational, and everything that goes into his life, his memories, his experiences, his interaction with the text, the people he serves, whether he's got a tummy ache that morning, everything is formational to what goes out in the sermon.
Speaker 3:And so in the Academy, if they take your identity politics and they make that foundational to the exclusion of the word of God or to the degradation of the word of God, so then I don't have to listen to you. You're not a black, lesbian or something like that. Like, I'm not even going to listen to you Whereas it should be formational so that you can actually speak to issues really sensitive, issues like racism and abortion and any other number of heinous crimes, even though you yourself have never experienced them. Because we have this communion of saints and you're the pastor, set apart by the people of God who have their own individual experiences and lives. And it's all this ethereal mishmash of multi-valent cultural awarenesses. And I'd like to say this way the culture of my congregation, broadly speaking, might be this, but every single Sunday it's slightly different, even if it's the exact same people there. They've lived another week, I've lived another week.
Speaker 3:So that offered, I think, an effective correction, because when you make the identity of the preacher foundational instead of formational, then the identity politics I should say, then the gospel can't be found, because you have to have, there are, prerequisites to getting to the gospel, and in some people's cases it's. You know, the white skin is a barrier, and that was another quote. Wow, so yeah, so much there. So much there, man, so intersectionality.
Speaker 2:That may not be a topic that everyone's well aware of. I definitely see that. I would love for you to define it and then see how the church because now we're leaning into church and politics and that sort of a thing and what is the role of the preacher in terms of speaking against various social issues, contagions, etc. You know. So, yeah, talk about, talk about intersectionality and how it's it can be a helpful or maybe not helpful in the church.
Speaker 3:So the term came about. I think it's a fairly old term, maybe 70s or something, to describe there was a black lawyer lady who came up with, coined the term I can't remember her name off the top of my head, but intersectionality is basically where two or more minority descriptors overlap. So if you have, you have the identity politics of being a black American and the struggles therein. Well, you also have the identity politic of a woman and the struggles therein, so those her writing as a black woman, then that's the intersection of those two things. So, and you can actually I honestly don't know if this is a joke or not, but you can go to like intersectionalityscorenet or something like that. There's an online intersectionality score that you can like, determine how many people around you are less privileged than you are. And I took the test and I and it told me that 100% of the people are less privileged than I am, because of course like white middle-class.
Speaker 3:Christian, you know, had two parents in the house, you know, never been arrested. You know they're like everybody's. You're so privileged, you know, whatever, and this, yeah, that kind of spurred me onto that. I think it can actually be beneficial if you don't, if you don't lose your mind over it. I mean, the people that peddle this stuff are some of the most close-minded people I've ever met in my life or read or listened to in my life.
Speaker 3:But if you really examine that, you, with the preacher's heart, can look out to your people and say, okay, there's a struggle that this person or this group of people might be going through, and why is that? And then they might compound in one group of people and you can shift your attention and focus on that ministerial problem, knowing that this goes way deeper. And it gives you a greater sense of patience too, because, okay, we can deal with this issue over here, but we're never going to be done. We're always going to be fighting the fight, we're always going to be working towards a better life. And it gives I've found it personally. It's given me empathy and much more patience in dealing with people who you know. I just want to say you know, if you just listen to me and take my advice, like all these problems would go away. Just listen to me. But it's not that simple because there are all these other problems. So I think that would be a positive way of using quote unquote intersectionality for the ministry of the church.
Speaker 2:I could say in the wider LCMS political sphere, intersectionality centers into the grouping. Because I'm a part of this. I listen to this. You know now I know exactly the identity politics. Now I know what kind of a Lutheran you are. I think that's just not helpful. I don't like it. I don't like it.
Speaker 3:I don't like it. I've got a and I mean I'm my whole Seminary, got three degrees from Concordia Seminary, st Louis, and you will never, you will not, catch me saying a bad word About our sister seminary in Fort Wayne. I think that's. I think that's where it starts. There's this kind of playful back and forth like, oh, fort Wayne, the logical seminary, and then, oh, st Louis, you're the liberal, like I've been, come on, been to both places. I know a lot of guys. I don't know too many people at Fort Wayne, but I I think it's not. I think it needs to stop. It needs to stop and you know it's like, if you want people to stop saying a bad word, like, stop using the word and then, and it'll stop.
Speaker 3:That's kind of a shallow way of answering that, but it drives me nuts.
Speaker 2:No, I hate it, I think I think that's helpful and we've got a number of different personalities within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and I think if we can identify the unique gifts and the gaps of those respective personalities and and the leaders who have maybe started different ministries, because there's a personality, type of Entrepreneur you know that I think we're unjustly labeling as liberal, you know, the starter of the church and that's I don't think that's helpful today as, as well, we need all different types of leaders starting all, starting and sustaining all different types of churches across our church body. Anything to say there, dennis? Yeah, we have non-negotiables.
Speaker 3:They're very clear. You know there's the word in sacraments. I mean, remember we're on vicarage. I've told several people this over the years like we used to tease my supervising pastor, your Partner pastor there that his like contemporary service on Sunday morning was like more contemporary than like the Working poor sitting around circle tables on Thursday night service was because we followed this ordo Strictly.
Speaker 3:We communing every time and it was like invocation. We like, we do, do, do, do. I'm not saying that there's certain, you know, some parts of the service that are non-negotiable Although there are. We've agreed as a sin that there are certain things that are non-negotiable, obviously. But I mean the marks of the church are non-negotiable. So you can't just go, I'm gonna start a church and I'm just gonna, you know, show everybody how to baptize people, and then they can just welcome people over their houses and everybody, just, you know, like was that Kelsey grammar movie that just came out? They just let's just go down to the ocean and just start baptizing people. Like that. Yeah, there's probably a better way to do that. But the, the, what did you call a cultural hospitality I love that phrase spiritual hospitality, any sort of you know benefit of the doubt? Can we please just give each other the benefit of the doubt once in a while, like that? I just read something on head coverings. Head coverings, apparently, is like a thing going around right now in some Lutheran Places, and I'm like.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna give these guys benefit of the doubt and I'm just gonna just tell me why. Why, like that? It starts there any form of dialogue starts with. Tell me more, explain that to me, and where are you coming from?
Speaker 2:and I want to work hard, dennis, to put the best construction on how they that's really not negotiable.
Speaker 3:The eighth commandment is not exactly there.
Speaker 2:There are Folks that are have having different practices in various parts of the country, probably in reaction to the assault on the family, and so they may be making certain choices in their context tonight. I don't know. All I care about is that it doesn't turn into another repression of law, of legalism, of Privatism, if you will, you know, and that that doesn't seep out into our, into our church body, this kind of new, new legalism. But the first, that is the day, that's the biggest danger.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt, you may know, best friend and I'm.
Speaker 3:We're on the phone every Saturday, finish my sermon and I and I call him and distract him from his, and we keep coming back to this phrase every time something comes up that where is your, where is your sufficiency? It has to be in Christ, yes. So by saying Christ alone, we're not saying nothing else is important. But if something is Trumpeted to the point where you can't get past it, I mean it's like the racist enominal academy Sorry, you got the wrong color skin that has now gone above the sufficient sufficiency we find in Christ. So To that case in point these I've heard a podcast about head coverings, just because I was curious, and I can honestly say the guys who were doing it had good intentions, they had very good intentions. I just flatly disagree with their exegesis. Hey, there's room for us, there has to be room for us, and if you tell me that I have to make the women of my church wear head coverings.
Speaker 3:Now we got a problem.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. So, if we all things in their appropriate order. Christology, right. So the scripture pointing us to Jesus as the word made flesh Under that is the mission of God, first for me in the waters of baptism, and, and then for all people. God's on a mission, the kingdom of heaven on a mission to get all of his kids back. He wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of him. And then, after that, ecclesiology. If we are the way we do life together, and there I mean that is in the third order, this comes under Christology and the mission of God, the kingdom of heaven being unleashed to bring light to the world. But a lot of times we put our ecclesiology above, maybe even the, our missy ology, and and that's where the list of?
Speaker 2:Accidentally and yeah. So anything to add toward the the appropriate ordering there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just think that there there's a tendency if we're again talking about that spectrum, there's a tendency on a more strict side to equate proper Christology and Missy ology baptismal theology is salvation with the way that the church operates, to make those visible markers and and I am finding the older I get that, the more that feels like to me taking the work of the Holy Spirit away from him and giving it to us.
Speaker 3:Like you know, we have a mandate. We Jesus told us what to do and, and he told us what the Spirit does and he does help us in our task, but he's the one that makes faith and we just got to do what we do. And then on the other end of the spectrum is the guys this, this bugs me Maybe even more as a guy say well, you know, that's just the sin and we can do whatever we want. And then pays no attention to the word sin. It means together like so I'm sorry that you can leave if you want. I'd rather you didn't, but if the Synod, if we have agreed this is how we're gonna operate as a church body, then I got to respect all of my brothers in the ministry, even if they're being ridiculous.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So people would probably pause right now and say, well, tim, all in the ULC they're Disrespectful of of Synod because we have a discipleship program that's raising up what I think should be considered future leaders for the church. We're not ordaining anybody, but we have a number of bivocational, co-vocational leaders going through, not approved yet. We're working with the pastoral formation committee and we're trying to go through the appropriate system and I'm coming coming underneath the supervision of my, my ecclesiastical supervisor in in Mike Gibson, and we're just trying to have a conversation To lead toward adaptive change in a declining church body. That's, that's it we love. We love our church body and stand on the shoulders of generations, third generation LCMS, pastor right, those who have gone before. So any kind of adaptation, with the appropriate understanding, the appropriate limits of Synod and convention, I think adaptation and innovation has to come from the local church, not necessarily the institutions, and so we're just running a test under the covering of the church. Anything to add toward that?
Speaker 3:I think that's that's reflective of what has happened over the years. I mean, the S&P program really started the same kind of way and I think objectors to Creative means like that operate, tend to operate. I want to paint everybody the same brush, but In my experience they tend to operate again with this fear that if we, if somebody else is trained in a way different than the way I was trained, then we're gonna lose our orthodoxy. If we lose our orthodoxy, well then we, then we have no church. I mean again your order, christology, sacraments and and then the church. If you lose that Christology, then you know you're just a church with a sign out front and you know, like so many other American denominations. So I think that that is the fear they're operating with, that kind of fear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, let's, let's pivot. This is so much fun, Dennis, some some may say that the preaching task should not include words of Leadership to shape the culture and the mission of the local local church. We just came off of a two-week because I'm in a very unique place here, or a multi-site congregation In a growing suburban suburban area. But what I'm getting at here is the pulpit should never be used for leadership of the congregation. I've heard that, and so even the unique language that defines, defines a congregation. This is, this is kind of selling out to, to scripture. I've heard that. I don't think it's a large, a large contingent within our church, but but some may justify Maybe a lack of healthy, mission-minded leadership to reach as many people as possible, saying that has no place in the pulpit. Comment there, dennis.
Speaker 3:I'd say you're not reading the epistles of Paul. If you say that You've got the heart and soul of the gospel in his epistles, and then alright, let's see what else we have to talk about. Oh yeah, don't do this. You should do this. Act like this, going to point leaders, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever, like he's telling them how to operate the tree. Oh, don't forget to bring my coat with you when you, you know, bring my scrolls with you.
Speaker 3:I left some back home like so is that not the word of God? Because it doesn't, you know, strike fear into your sinner's heart or give solve to your salvation. Now I'll say this if you get up and say today's sermon is all about how we're going to organize our street ministry, now you've missed the purpose of a sermon. But that's not what you're saying. Again, the heart and soul of the sermon is that nobody walks out of that room in doubt that the gospel is for them. But how and what do we do? That speaks again to this formative, cultural reality of both the person and the preacher and the people that you're actually speaking to. We're doing life together here, in this local place, so where else are we going to talk?
Speaker 3:about this. I mean, there are other venues, I guess, and we can come to Bible study where like a fifth of you will actually show up and the rest will go to Cracker Barrel. You've got the captive audience. And not that you're using that as like a bully pulpit or to get some sort of point across, but say, look, as an institution, as a local congregation, this is what we're doing, this is the direction we are, and we're spurred forward by everything I just told you about the gospel of Jesus Christ. So let's go forward on where Christian soldiers. That's weird. I don't know why anyone would say that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but leadership equals liberal, it's just exhortation. Yeah, it's just exhortation, amen. A couple more questions, dude, and then I'd love for you to just open up the story of Jesus for us with a short little homily. So what are your favorite stories of Jesus and how does he shape the preacher's heart? Any comment there? And how Jesus did the preaching task?
Speaker 3:Oh, how he did the preaching task, boy, that's a tough one. So we don't normally look to the way Jesus preached as the way we communicate. Although we did just have the beatitudes on Sunday, my favorite story aside from just the reality of the resurrection is the raising of Lazarus is just amazing. I've slamming that soup for so long. I did my STM in the Gospel of John and I adore that story and everything to do with it, because you have all the lessons of humanity just baked right in there and in fact it's sort of my stumped funeral sermon. If I didn't know somebody they get like the John 11 funeral sermon. I probably preached it 50, 60 times like the same one, because it's just perfect. It works very well.
Speaker 2:So to close you want to hear it I would love to hear the five minute John 11, lazarus sermon.
Speaker 3:Five minutes, all right, crank it up here. So you I cannot think of let's pretend it's a funeral, because you gotta have an occasion for a sermon.
Speaker 2:Yes, you do, you just talk and you hear yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:Pretend it's a funeral For my money. You cannot find a better application of how to deal with the death of a beloved Christian than the story of Jesus raising Lazarus. So here's the story goes. Lazarus is sick, he's a very dear friend of Jesus and they know that Jesus obviously has a reputation right now of healing people, sometimes people he doesn't even know. You've got the woman who just touches the hem of his robe. We've got the royal official son who's not even there and he just, you know, says at a word, and he never even sees the kid. And so you'd think one of his best friends, lazarus, he would, he'd rush over there and heal him, and they all have faith that he would do this. And for some reason he just says he says no, he doesn't, he doesn't go and you can imagine their confusion.
Speaker 3:And they're. You know Jesus always does weird things, so they maybe are uncomfortable to ask him and he waits, and he waits and finally waits until Lazarus dies to finally go back to Bethany. And then he doesn't even get in the village yet before Martha, the sister of the dead man, hears that he's coming. She runs out of the village to him and like a costs him, and you can feel her frustration. Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. Mary does the same thing. She runs out, falls to her knees. Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. He's not even in the village yet.
Speaker 3:This is lesson number one when dealing with the death of a Christian. If you're frustrated or confused, why weren't you here? Why did she get cancer? Why did this happen? Whatever, it's okay. Martha and Mary were just as frustrated too and they were just as confused. But Martha said I know that God will give you whatever you ask. Notice what she didn't do. She didn't say no, jesus, you didn't answer my prayer when I wanted you to, in the way that I wanted you to. She doesn't say go away. She doesn't run out the other side of the village. She doesn't ignore him. She runs to him in her grief and her anger and her frustration. It's lesson number one Run to Jesus, because he's the only one to take care of this problem.
Speaker 3:Lesson number two they go inside the village and he sees all of the mourners, the Jews from Jerusalem. His disciples are there, mary and Martha, his friends, family, people that he loves and knows, and he does the most remarkable thing. It's the shortest verse in the Bible Jesus wept. The one by whom, through whom and for whom all things are made, the one who's about to raise this guy from the dead. Five minutes from now, he weeps. He weeps because his creation is broken. He weeps because he feels our pain. He took on our pain, suffered and died on the cross and rose again on the third day. It was made like us in every way, except without sin. He weeps because death shouldn't be, and that's what he came here to fix. That problem. He weeps. This is lesson number two. Don't let anybody ever tell you to get over it. This person will never replace that spot in your heart.
Speaker 3:Grief takes many forms. It'll sneak up on you when you least expect it and you may carry it for a while You'll find a new normal. But within the communion of this church, we are here grieving with you. Lesson number three is the most important One. Of course he has him roll the stone away. They object. We object too. We like death, we want it to stick around. We're so used to it. Well, we know how to handle death. It's life we have a hard time with. But Jesus is undeterred by the stench of death. And so they roll the stone away and, as you can imagine that hundred odor comes wafting out. He raises his arms to heaven and he says Father, I thank you that you've heard me. I know that you always hear me, but I say this so that those around may know that you have sent me. And he calls out with a loud voice Lazarus, come out. And that is the most important lesson that you need to take away from this occasion Jesus makes the dead walk.
Speaker 3:Unbind him and let him go. There will come a day when all saints in Jesus Christ will rise again from the dead. There will be a day when we are all united again. There will be a day when he will wipe all tears from our faces and we will be together in the new heavens, in the new earth, forever. Very good, was that five minutes? Amen.
Speaker 2:So good Amen. I was waiting for the amen.
Speaker 3:You take that. Use it Next time you're stuck at a funeral.
Speaker 2:Well, no, yeah it's the best, john 11, all the emotions in that if you can't preach that, bro, you probably should find another call, because it's like the gospel at a nutshell the empathy of Christ come into us in our pain and shame or grief or anger and walking with us to that empty tomb and I love. Another part of the story is that he comes out when Jesus calls us out in daily confession and absolution. He's a walking man that's dead. The awkwardness of the burial clothes that are wrapped around unbind him Really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, unbind him.
Speaker 2:I think he's naked under their bed. It's probably hopping too.
Speaker 3:He's probably hopping too because his hands and feet were bound with an interest.
Speaker 2:So we're all when we come to life now and obviously on that last day, but definitely now with a Satan's intertension, there's an awkward nature where we're unbending and we need community. We desperately need community. Brothers and sisters in Christ, to take off those burial clothes in the stanchion of death, One of the things you'll hear people say let him go in relation to mourning let him go, let him be at peace.
Speaker 3:This is sort of doing the reverse. Let him go to a believer is let him go by accepting the fact that this man will live again. He will live again. So unbind the death clothes and don't hang on to that death, but instead encourage one another with these words of the resurrection of the debt. This is weird kind of backwards thing.
Speaker 2:So good, all right.
Speaker 2:Last question I can't talk to you and not talk about anti-nosticism and the resurrection of Jesus Christ when you were on vicarage with me, like the power of the resurrection on the last day, life after life after death, nt right, the resurrection of the Son of God, and others who have written about this anti-nosticism push and how that equates really to your life work as a preacher. I'm in fleshed with you now and there will be a moment when I'm no longer with you, but I can't wait to be back with you when Jesus comes and the trumpet sounds and I get to spend eternity Revelation 21, with every tear, tear dried, new heavens and new earth. So talk about. I think the best parts of Lutheranism is the earthiness of it, now and into eternity. What do you got, dennis?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the gospel. I mean, actually this is my sermon yesterday for all saints day, that you know what it was so often stopped short but it's like only like dropping the last verse of a hymn or only playing seven notes of a scale. You got to tell the whole story and I mean even the text was Revelation 7, which is talking about the saints coming out of the great tribulation, standing around the throne. But that's not the end of their story. Yeah, we get the thief on the cross Today. We'd be with me in paradise. That's not the end of his story. The end is, you know, heavenly Jerusalem descending like a bride adorned for her husband. The end of the story is 1 Thessalonians 4, 13 through 18. The dead and Christ were wise. First. I remember speaking of vicarage in this topic. There was a time you did something for, like the ladies group or whatever in the pack.
Speaker 1:How was that year?
Speaker 3:I felt partially responsible because I was so vehement about it. It's been like a year and here comes this like you know, piss and vinegar kid from the seminary and you're like, yeah, let's do this, but you had more. You had more on the line than I did, and the next day I went to the offices right next to each other, and I hear you this is Pastor Tim.
Speaker 3:Oh, no, no, your voice got really like tender and quiet. You're like no, no, of course your husband is in heaven. No, of course. Do you remember this?
Speaker 2:Yes, oh yeah. I've used that story many times. I went off on Gibbs five things. You shouldn't say Five things don't say in a funeral.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I sent in a, which we assigned in the SMP program, by the way.
Speaker 2:And this was early and you got to know your like, not just what you say, but how you see it. And I'm talking to all these widows and I'm like saying you probably heard bad theology your husband's funeral. Let me straighten it out. Such an idiot man, such a dude.
Speaker 3:I felt so bad. I just kind of went up and like slowly closed my door. I'm like oops. I don't even told my wife I'm like I think I got Tim in trouble.
Speaker 2:No, no, they forgave me.
Speaker 3:Well, Gibbs always said you know, there's some people who are just so stuck in one way of thinking that it's like steering a big ship, but your right, it's all. Approach Again. Person to preacher, relationships, cultural identity you know, all this is formative.
Speaker 1:So if I just go in and say everybody who came before me was stupid.
Speaker 3:It's not wise.
Speaker 2:It's not wise man, this is good man. If people want to connect with you, dennis, love your heart and even to get a copy, maybe, of your dissertation, your thesis how would they be able to connect with you?
Speaker 3:You can find my dissertation at scholarcsledu. I have not searched on any publishers yet but it's copy written so you can't just like take it and run with it. But there's that, you can find me. You know I serve St Paul Bay City. So if you go to that website, you know and I've got you know the face page or whatever. So if you want to listen to any, any sermons, or whatever.
Speaker 1:That's the only thing.
Speaker 3:I use Facebook for, by the way, I think it's stupid. So don't message me on Facebook, I will ignore it. It's an unacceptable mode of communication. So on the directory, LCMAS directory you can find my email. So there, you go.
Speaker 2:So good, dennis, this has been so fun. This is Reverend Dr Dennis Matias talking about Dr, dr Talking about preaching today. I hope, whether you're a preacher or not, this gave you added insight to the necessity of really, really solid Jesus centered preaching, word centered preaching. And if you're not a preacher, man, pray for your preacher.
Speaker 2:Personality and with personality, unique personality, pray for. We need more preachers and pulpits and platforms wherever it is that the Word of God would be declared so that many people as possible would come to saving faith in Jesus, for the days are very, very short. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Thank you so much. Thanks so much, Dennis.