We're privileged to have Reverend Dr. Rick Meyer join us once again in a profound conversation that uncovers the role of divine communication in our trials, and the essential emotions of hope and joy that underpin a meaningful Christian journey. Together, we navigate the story of Elizabeth and Zechariah, extracting rich insights that resonate with today's challenges of faith. We also unpack Rick's personal struggle with chronic pain, shedding light on the sustenance we derive from God's steadfast love.
The journey into manhood can often feel like an uphill battle, especially when it comes to vulnerability and the expectation to embody strength. This episode tackles the complexities men face in expressing their struggles, the transformative power of a father's blessing, and the struggle with the perception of the church as a feminized space. I reflect on my extensive ministerial experiences, while we discuss the societal pressures that inhibit male openness and the critical need for visible male role models within the church. We explore the power of blessings as affirmations of identity, and how the prodigal son's story vividly exemplifies the unconditional acceptance that our identity in Christ offers.
Hope can sometimes seem elusive, yet it's the very fabric that can weave our life's narrative towards divine purpose. We explore the intersecting paths of psychotherapy, pharmacological intervention, and spiritual renewal, considering how each can contribute to reimagining one's life in the context of divine intention. Furthermore, we celebrate the hope and humility exemplified by Jesus Christ and Joseph of the Old Testament, acknowledging how our earthly relationships can reflect our ultimate connection with our Heavenly Father. This heartening exchange encourages reflection and inspires a deeper grasp of God's love, inviting listeners to find solace and strength in their own faith journeys.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
We're privileged to have Reverend Dr. Rick Meyer join us once again in a profound conversation that uncovers the role of divine communication in our trials, and the essential emotions of hope and joy that underpin a meaningful Christian journey. Together, we navigate the story of Elizabeth and Zechariah, extracting rich insights that resonate with today's challenges of faith. We also unpack Rick's personal struggle with chronic pain, shedding light on the sustenance we derive from God's steadfast love.
The journey into manhood can often feel like an uphill battle, especially when it comes to vulnerability and the expectation to embody strength. This episode tackles the complexities men face in expressing their struggles, the transformative power of a father's blessing, and the struggle with the perception of the church as a feminized space. I reflect on my extensive ministerial experiences, while we discuss the societal pressures that inhibit male openness and the critical need for visible male role models within the church. We explore the power of blessings as affirmations of identity, and how the prodigal son's story vividly exemplifies the unconditional acceptance that our identity in Christ offers.
Hope can sometimes seem elusive, yet it's the very fabric that can weave our life's narrative towards divine purpose. We explore the intersecting paths of psychotherapy, pharmacological intervention, and spiritual renewal, considering how each can contribute to reimagining one's life in the context of divine intention. Furthermore, we celebrate the hope and humility exemplified by Jesus Christ and Joseph of the Old Testament, acknowledging how our earthly relationships can reflect our ultimate connection with our Heavenly Father. This heartening exchange encourages reflection and inspires a deeper grasp of God's love, inviting listeners to find solace and strength in their own faith journeys.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast. I pray wherever you're taking this in today, the joy of Jesus is upon your heart, no matter if you're walking through a season of harvest and plenty and joy or if you're walking through a season of barrenness, dryness, stillness. Wherever you are, I pray you know the extra-nose reality that God loves you so much that he sent his one, only son, jesus, who atoned for your sin and draws you near to himself and invites you. This is a crazy thing about faith right Invites you, empowered by the Spirit, to draw near to him. He is the author of life and he loves you more than you can possibly imagine.
Speaker 2:Today I have the great joy to get to hang out for the second time with Reverend Dr Rick Meyer. We're going to be talking about the state of socialization of men. We're going to start off with a conversation, though, around dryness and how the Lord speaks through struggle and trial. I don't know when this is coming out, probably sometime in early 24, but right now I'm in the season of Advent and heading into the season of Advent, that's Rick wrestling with the story of Elizabeth, zechariah and their season of waiting and wondering God. We've prayed for a child for so long.
Speaker 2:Angel Gabriel shows up to Zechariah. He doubts God's faithfulness, right, he's mute for nine-some-month Mary and no, elizabeth rejoices. I don't think she rejoiced. She wanted her husband there. She then gets this immaculate, amazing and in her later days she'd waited for so long, this gift of John who leaps. I love that story when he sees Mary or he experiences the presence of Jesus. How is Jesus, rick? Thanks for hanging with me today. How is Jesus spoken to you through seasons of dryness and pain and struggle? What has he taught you, rick, because I know you're walking through that in real time, even right now. Thanks for joining us on American Reformation, brother.
Speaker 3:Sure, it's good to be with you, tim. Just to get started, I want you to know how much I appreciate you. You're really the right person to do what you're doing. You're gifted. I'm always amazed at how you can respond to people and have so much knowledge around so many different things and put that together so quickly. My mind doesn't work that way. I am always amazed when I see that I mean I'm a slow processor and I had to take it in and kind of mull it over.
Speaker 3:That's kind that's kind Rick, it's all the Lord. Man, it's all the Lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're awesome man, you're awesome bro. This is going to be fun.
Speaker 3:And the topics that you're addressing and the way that you're doing it. Thank you for doing that. I just I think it's fresh and needed. So, I'm sorry about the jiggle.
Speaker 2:No, no, you're doing it, this is so fun. So, yeah, I mean, right before we got on, you were talking about how the Lord has taught you so much through struggle, and I think in the American story, especially in a nation of plenty, and then kind of the health and wealth prosperity gospel that's so present today, we have this tendency to believe that Jesus is near to us when it's good and God where are you when it's tough. How is Jesus drawn near to you, even through the tough stuff? Rick?
Speaker 3:Sweetly I guess I would describe it.
Speaker 3:And, as we talked last time, I explained a really hard, hard couple of years during learning to live with chronic pain and some of the ways in which I viewed God and as having turned his face away from me, and it really took some time to see that he was there, really attending to me in ways I couldn't see. I had a faith that told, informed me and told me that's the kind of God I serve, that does that and yet being able to really see it and trust that was hard and when you're in that place, then there's a wall that comes up when it comes to looking forward into the future and being hopeful about that. But I'm in a different place today. I mean, I still have the chronic pain, I deal with that and I move more slowly. I can't do everything I used to do, but I'm grateful for what I can do and I am hopeful about the future in ways that I haven't been Definitely at times going through this. So I know God is present and he hears my prayer and I'm so grateful for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what is it about? The brain and I'd say every human runs on two base emotions. One is hope. Hope for the future. Right, unless there's some tell us some end, some goal, your faith is futile. This is the logic of the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Right, I mean, your faith is futile. You're still in your sins If Christ has not been raised. It's all rat race who really cares, just go after Heed and is in pleasure at all costs Eat, drink, be married. Tomorrow we die. So we got to have this hope, this future, which then grounds us in the present with the joy of Jesus. Joy is a fuel of the brain. Joy is what leads us to connect to other people, to be curious, to be loving toward our neighbor. It's because we've been loved by the God of the universe and carried through the struggle and the trial as he's drawn near to us in those seasons of suffering and loss.
Speaker 2:One of my big prayers, rick and you may have heard this on other podcasts is that more pastors you know, pastors in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod are all men, but I'm praying for more leaders, men being raised up as leaders within the church, who are comfortable talking with their wives with their children, about their emotions, about how they connect. And unfortunately I see in the American church a lot of men who are emotionally detached and I know that goes back. We can talk family systems and kind of what they saw modeled. Maybe it was this kind of Germanic, very stoic, very reserved, maybe pulled back male figure, and so we kind of model maybe what we saw in the home for a lot of us.
Speaker 2:But a lot of us men, man, we got wounds. We know things are not as they should be and we hope for another day maybe when I can articulate myself, all the stuff, the good, the bad and the ugly that's going on within me, and bring all of that to the throne room of Jesus to let him do what only he can do restore me, love me, forgive me. But men we don't do emotions very, very well and it leads us maybe to lack in your doctoral thesis your socialization of men. We're kind of detached. So talk a little bit about anything you want to respond to there and then get into your doctoral thesis and the socialization of men that you walk through. Rick, this is cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is awesome. So I've been a pastor or counselor for many years and working in both started out with Lutheran social services in the South and then developed a private practice with a group and did that with Lutheran counseling services for a number of years and then done this in a abbreviated form in parish context. And then currently I volunteer at a rescue mission where I work with both men and women, but mostly men, who have been in an addicted lifestyle and in many cases have lost everything to that addiction. But what led up to that addiction is the thing that we're trying to deconstruct and give them a chance to really work through and honestly, you know, I do this work and I'm led into this work as other counselors are and I would suggest also as pastors are led into their work to be helpful, because I've had to learn about what I have needed along the way and the more I've learned and have grown in my understanding of that, I wanted to share it. And then, in working with others, of course, it gives us an opportunity to continue working on ourselves. I like to say we teach what we need and so you know, whatever you're leaning into in your relationship to others, it's a window into what you're needing for yourself, and that's just really an important thing to understand.
Speaker 3:And sometimes it takes a while to really begin to understand that. I think, and as you do, I think you start to for men, you start to tap into some of those emotions, some of the underlying drivers, if you will, for protecting and avoiding and not allowing yourself to be too vulnerable. I think I mean there are a lot of messages and some of them sound stereotypical, like big boys, don't cry. You know man up. You know push through, don't let them see you sweat. Don't show fear. You know you know win at all costs. You know we learn to be driven, and if we're not, we don't have the brilliant personality for that.
Speaker 3:To the extent that we really know somewhere deep down inside that that doesn't fully connect for us. What happens is we begin to develop a base of shame. And so you know my first book called I Love you, son. It's kind of a primer on the adolescent boys and adult males and I just like to read a short section here.
Speaker 3:You know it says the desire and need for a father's blessing is inherent and powerful, as male studies researcher Samuel Osserson explains the very foundation of who we are as men is directly related to this blessing. Often we find a sense of worth as men only in living up, proving we are smart enough for teachers, tough enough for coaches, loyal enough for bosses. Since many men don't get a blessing from the male community, they aren't always sure if they really and truly have the right stuff. This is the core sense of male shame. You know, when we look at the American church as you referenced, I think still it's fair to say that it is often perceived by men as more of a place, more of a feminized context environment. I think one study I read indicated that on average, most congregations are are attended by 66% females women, you know the. There may be obviously some exceptions along the way and we ought to pay attention to what's going on in those exceptions. But you know, it's not uncommon for us to see a woman attend without her husband, but how often do you see a man attend without his wife, that's unusual right Kind of stands out to us, but the other one we kind of go yeah you know,
Speaker 3:well, that's kind of the way it goes sometimes, and we just hope and pray that he'll come along. And what's going on there? What is it that the man is? What's he afraid of, what's he concerned about, what's he seeing? And so we have to pay attention to what it is that we're highlighting, we're celebrating.
Speaker 3:You know, what are the areas of ministry that we? You know that we seem to visibly really get behind. You know, are they things that would appeal to man? Do we have good role models and leaders male leaders in some roles that are before the congregation and they can see hey, there's a place for me. We talk about, you know, we talk about, ethnically, how people who are of a different color or ethnic background need to see leadership that looks like them so that they know it's a place for them if they belong there. Well, we need to think about that from a gender perspective as well. And it's not. I mean, we do have a in our context. You know the pastors are all male, but you know, relatively few people are going to be pastors. So that's that may not be something that would aspire to, although we're hoping and praying that more will. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Hey, rick, let's. There's more that you can say there. But I want to go back to the conversation about the need for a blessing for women and men. But the need for blessing, why do you think it is that for a lot of men dads, grandfathers I just preached on the need for a blessing, casting vision, if you will, for God's work in their center, daughter's life, right. Why do you think that's kind of a hard thing to do? And maybe here's one of my hypotheses, a little bit to hear you wrestle with this.
Speaker 2:Could it be that a lot of men see a blessing as an overly feminine type of an expression, that because we've been as you went through, your wonderful writer, you went through, you know, in sports you got to be tough in the workplace, you got to be hardworking and all these types of things, because it's always been about the doing that a lot of time the blessing is seen as well. I'm just giving it to you because you're my son, not because of what you do. I mean this is deeply theological, isn't it? I mean this is what God says over us. You are my son, the prodigal son who comes back broken and repentant. I'll throw the party for you, you know, and we have a hard time because we're such a doing culture right and you're proved by what you do that I think a lot of times, well, I'll give you the blessing, son, if you prove it, if you win the championship, if you get the big gig, then I'll give it.
Speaker 2:But honestly, I don't think a lot of times that dad's in the, you know, then it's probably envy. Well, you know, whatever you know, they're struggling with their own sense of insecurity. So why is it that a lot of men, do you think dads and grandpa struggle with passing on that blessing and even tease out what that looks and feels like for us? If there are some men listening, they're like whoa, I got some kids, grandkids, they could use this right now and I need some tools. Could you help us double down on the need for the blessing and why it doesn't happen more in our Christian context? Rick?
Speaker 3:Well, it's likely because they haven't received it themselves. And if you haven't received it, you don't know what that looks like or feels like, and you're in search of it. Men are in search of it constantly, sometimes for the rest of their lives, and you know it's interesting. Yeah, if you, if you win the game, you're kind of. You just know your, your dad's going to be proud, and then there's a blessing inherent in that. But what if you don't win the game? But what if you befriend someone who's having a hard time making friends? Do you have a male in your life who will come along and see that and say, man, that is, that's really awesome. I mean, that's the good stuff, that's what it means to win in life.
Speaker 3:Good for you, wow. Well, you know how huge is that. That's, that's the blessing that's needed. But many men don't have. Them haven't had been mentored to see examples of that. They don't know what that's like. I, you know. I could push this a little farther and talk about people in context, like, like church workers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, push away, Push away Rick. Yeah, push away Rick, let's go.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I, I really, when I was going through the seminary, I rarely saw demonstrations of vulnerability or felt like I was. I had received a blessing from the male figure there and I know I so desired that and and was hurt by not receiving it. And I, it was something that I learned. You know you learn by positives and also by negatives, but you know, I think that is a you know you're going to go, you're going to graduate, you're going to leave that context and go into a setting where you're, you're going to be without an understanding or an ability to do that. And so, when it comes to being open, to being vulnerable or being humble enough to listen and learn from others, while we're fighting that or protecting or covering, we got that male shame sitting there underneath that man.
Speaker 3:I, I, I'm not going to prove myself. I'm not, I'm not, definitely not going to open up and let him see that. I mean that scares me. I don't even know what to do with that when it comes out. Right, I have. So I had an article that I wrote in it for a journal a few years ago and you know it's on integrating cognitive theory and theology, treatment of depression, the special focus on men the future of the cognitive triad. Yeah, say that three times fast, right.
Speaker 2:Say it again. I don't know if I got it. Rick Say it again.
Speaker 3:What about the trial? You know it's about men, men and shame and the hoping process and if it's okay, I'm going to read a little bit from this. I love it and it it's. There's a focus here on a young man named Michael he, his wife had an affair, left him, was remarried with this other man and Michael is visiting with me and counseling and trying to work through episodes of of depression and figuring out how to move forward in a more healthy, positive way. Keep in mind, michael is a full time church worker, director of music. He is brilliant, talented. More talented is a little pinky that I have in my whole body. You know I'm in awe of this guy and and yet, you know, here we sit together and I just I start out this one section.
Speaker 3:Men are still significantly socialized to define their self worth in terms of doing, for example, protector and provider and not being, to your point earlier. Emotions have to do with being Consequently. Paying close attention to feeling states is not considered natural by many men. In fact, such a practice of discussing emotions is more likely considered feminine or womanly, even by many females, who perpetuate this myth by describing a nurturing man as like a woman stuck in a woman's. It was stuck. Stuck in a man's body.
Speaker 3:I invite Michael to describe himself from the standpoint of who he is being, without focusing on what he does doing. He pauses for a long time, he thinks, but he says. Everything I come up with as a way to describe myself includes action doing what do you think? He asks? Turning to me as the expert, I sit quietly resisting the defensive voice in my mind that questions whether or not I can really be helpful to Michael. My own masculine proficiency core believes are alive and well.
Speaker 3:Michael speaks again, slowly, deliberately. There's just not much being with another in my life and yet that's exactly what is happening in this therapeutic relationship. I have a choice with Michael. I can either rattle off psychological theory After all, he has invited it or I can risk the discomfort of pauses and silence and actually model the power of presence and being. Michael looks up. I guess the fact that I'm a child of God can be a way of talking about being. I smile. Michael goes on to talk about missing his earthly father's blessing. He cries. A tenderness is allowed to surface. We will need to focus again on Michael's competence before revisiting his tenderness as a way to counterbalance his potential experience of male shame.
Speaker 1:Now that.
Speaker 3:Michael is allowing himself to be vulnerable in my presence, we can begin moving more fully toward a focus on the hoping process. Such a focus on hope will provide an opportunity to address the future of the cognitive triad in relation to the integrative discussion about God at work in Michael's life.
Speaker 1:Being and doing.
Speaker 3:It's a shorthand way of talking, about Talking about Getting at this discussion of male shame, the need for a blessing, and having to do that before a person can, when they're in a bad spot, before that person can begin to see forward into a future that's worth living into. Right, there was a question that you asked about maybe some tools or….
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that, let's go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, one of the things that I'll find is very helpful is to introduce a hope timeline, and this isn't original. With me, here's a professor, andrew Lester, who worked at… what is it Trying to blink? Anyway, christian University in Fort Worth. Anyway, go horn toads or whatever they're called TCU, tcu. Texas.
Speaker 1:Christian University.
Speaker 3:And he was a professor in the seminar there and anyway, I had a chance to learn some things from him about hope in pastoral care and counseling and he introduced this hope line. I just used it time and time again and basically you just draw a straight line with the arrow on the end and talk about hope, and you talk about lowercase h, hope, small h, and on that line just draw lines up along the way and talk about what are those hopes that we have in life. We start out at very early age and as a young person maybe it's so… we're learning to hope that we make friends and we don't have the words, the language for it, but we don't want to be isolated, we don't want to be alone, we want to be accepted. So we're hoping for good friends. And then along the way, maybe you're hoping that you'll get to spend a little more time with your dad, or maybe you're hoping that your stepfather will stop hitting you, or maybe you're hoping that your mom will stop drinking, or there are lots of hopes along the way and we carry these with us into our adulthood. We don't stop having hopes, dreams and expectations. But you're drawing that out.
Speaker 3:Then we go back and we, underneath each line that goes up for lowercase h hope, we have to draw a line that goes down underneath it and we call that disappointment. And we do that at each place where we have a hope. And the disappointment, you know, maybe. Well, maybe I don't make friends, or I don't make friends right away, or maybe I'm not in the group that I really wanted to be, or kind of unsure of myself and some of those I don't know if I'm going to really get along with the people, the group that I'm in.
Speaker 3:So there's some disappointment. That doesn't mean there are some gains, but it may not be what we expected. And then the same is true along the way right, and so there are disappointments. Well, as we go through that, tim, it gives us, it's starting to give us a chance to develop a language for emotions. And then when I will see a person in counseling, for example, it's oftentimes it's when something really didn't work out that they had invested a lot of hope in. You know, maybe what we would call capital H hope the big hope and everything was just sort of resting on this.
Speaker 3:And when it didn't work out, I draw a line, make a wall there. So you hit a wall. You know you can't see beyond that, and so what you do is you start to go down from disappointment to despair, depression, maybe even suicidal ideation. You know you're in this pit and it becomes really important to begin talking about that capital H hope, which is hope in God. Where is that? Where is God in the middle of all this right? And so, instead of drawing that straight line, we draw the line, the straight line, but then it loops up with an arrow and God is there, and what happens is we begin to talk about what does it mean to know that God is the one who's calling you forward into a future of his making, to join in his story and what he's doing and his purpose in all of this, and the fact that he actually loves you and wants you to see that he's in charge ultimately and that he's calling us forward. But how does that begin to reshape the way that we view the ups and the downsides of life? And that question really invites the integrative process where now maybe some of those things don't work out the way we expect, because God has something else in mind, you know, and you're not the only one he has in mind.
Speaker 3:Maybe some things don't work out for the sake of others, not just you. We give it our best shot, we have our expectations, we want to do the best. And has there bad stuff that happens along the way? Yes, are people blowing it? And we're blowing it there, and hurtful things? Yeah, is there sin? Yeah, there's no escaping that this side of eternity, boy. Now there's a concept, again. Many people just haven't had a chance to learn how to talk about. And when they start to, it's amazing what they come up with. I just, I just look up and I realize I'm standing on holy ground. God is doing something there in that room, in that person, and I'm just in awe.
Speaker 3:And they start to make the connection and they start to come out of that pit Now, when a person is going through significant depressive episodes, sometimes what they also need is some pharmacological help, and so drug therapy and psychotherapy can work together oftentimes better than just one or the other. But you need to pay attention to once you get out of a good medication, you have an opportunity to really start to rethink things, and so you need an opportunity to go through that and begin to make those connections and see God at work through their own. I mean, that's some of the stuff that I just love being a part of you know.
Speaker 2:Well, I could. I mean I was lit up, I was captivated man through that whole thing. Because I'm fast, I like to. You're even giving me compliments about how quick I think and stuff. I like to think slow, I do. I need to learn the gift of thinking slow and you really offer that gift and I can tell, I mean even just as taste man.
Speaker 2:You're an amazing counselor, you're patients, you're listening and then using an amazing handle like the hope timeline, and that's so easy for us because we're visual, often before we're even feeling things right. I mean, we're visualizing things and we, the feelings follow that visualization. I can see that line going up in terms of my hopes the small age hopes and the big, the big age hope and I can see how, how sorrow and struggle and disappointment, like you say, the downward arrow. It hits at every junction of my hope because this world is broken, I'm broken, and yet there's this through line, this amazing grand narrative that holds me and all things together and leads me up and seats me up. That's the only way you can really make it through.
Speaker 2:This life is, and I would say, in this life and in the life to come, is the the big age hope that we have in the crucified and risen one, jesus, who walked that road for us, didn't, didn't he? I mean the, the Hebrew, I mean he knew every temptation, he knew every disappointment, he knew every, every struggle, he knew abandonment, he knew what it was like to want you know? You wonder if what Joseph and his, his approval of the side was we don't know much about about Joseph, but he had the approval of the father and that was more than enough for Jesus to keep on point through the highs and the lows, the joys and the sorrows of disappointments. And that is really the way of the cross, isn't it, rick? Yeah, all you've explained really is the the way of the cross. It's not the glory road, it's the hard road of Jesus leading us up and into him. Who is our head. Everything about kind of the way of the cross connected to that timeline of hope.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 2:I mean am I?
Speaker 3:you know, one of the places my mind goes immediately is to a story of a story of Joseph in the Old Testament, and what he?
Speaker 3:went through in the, the ups and the downs, and you can draw that out even using this kind of timeline. And how do you know clearly? I mean, he kept drawing upon what he knew. He's definitely had his father's blessing and, and, but, my goodness, the hurts from his brothers, and then all the disappoint highs and the and the lows along the way. Right, where did he end up In the end? He, he, he had, he had learned the connection and he had begun to see it. It might not have been until he's standing there saying, you know, a second in command in Egypt being with a storehouse of grain to help his family and others that he started that he's able to actually see it more fully. My goodness, how long did it take him to be able to get to really fully experience that you intended it for evil and God used it for good? Yeah, wow, I mean that's, that's some spiritual maturity right there. Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:What kind of humility do you?
Speaker 3:have to learn to get to that place.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm reading Henry now in right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love him yeah.
Speaker 2:His book on discernment and how often we separate our, our own identity. So a lot of times we think of humility as well. I don't really know you know who I am. I'm kind of meek I guess that's another word kind of I pull back.
Speaker 2:But now, when talks about deep humility being firmly rooted in your identity in Christ, and that that's what Joseph had, that's what Jesus had identity in the Father and therefore he could humble himself, knowing firmly who he was, you know, and going back to Jesus, he knew what was in the heart of men.
Speaker 2:He wasn't looking for approval from the heart of men, from the lips of men. And I think that's ultimately for us, because let's go back to the family we may even make because a lot of people have daddy wounds, you know we may even make our dad, the approval of our dad, into an idol, when what we really need is the approval of our father. And then that allows us to enter back in, to see our, see our dad, see our parents, see those who were in authority for us, with empathy and care and compassion rather than judgment. No, you ruined me, no, no, no, I think it's working right. We need to work through those wounds, right, but the ultimate goal is to find our identity in who Jesus says we are, in who the father says we are approved by him. Anything to add to that conversation of that deep sense of humility, because that's what Joseph had.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and part of what comes to my mind I'm thinking is in humility, a father can have a conversation with his son and with his daughter and that works both ways, that's another conversation for another day.
Speaker 3:But a father can have a conversation with his child and say I love you and as much as I love you, god loves you even more, which blows my mind, because I am so I so love you. I, you know, but there are things that God only God would be able to do for you and teach you and help you with. And I'm gonna be there, supporting, encouraging. I'm gonna be your biggest cheerleader, you know, but I'm gonna point you to Jesus every chance I get. When I have had a young child not an infant, but a young child, maybe three, four, five who is coming for baptism, I have a meet with the family beforehand so I can explain to the child what's gonna happen and what it means, and I'll tell him.
Speaker 3:You know, when I pour the water and I say, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, I want you to hear God saying this I love you, I love you, I love you, and you are my child and I will never let you go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, and we all have our way of trying to reinforce that, but the child is hearing that on some level. Who else is hearing that? I mean, yeah, parents for sure, and the congregation, that's right. I mean, you know, when you sit there and there's a baptism like that, you know that you're having something reinforced for you too. But how wonderful to hear it so simply spoken. I love you. I love you, I love you, thank you. I needed the gospel today, desperately needed the gospel today, you know.
Speaker 3:I just think you know, our theology and our practice are just some, really some beautiful opportunities.
Speaker 2:Amen. Wow, I am closer to Jesus today for getting to hang out with you.
Speaker 3:Dr Rick.
Speaker 2:Meyer, I'm serious about that, man, this is good for my this is really good for my soul and a couple, a couple of tools, that hope timeline for you pastor, counselor, leader, maybe doing that, even using that handle at home as a mom or your dad with your kids, and even using that as a vulnerable opportunity for you to share your story of things you hope for. You know, I hoped I was going to be a professional football player back in the day, maybe basketball, you know, that didn't, that didn't come to fruition. You got a different plans and so just just shared. I was dumped by like three or four girls, rick, before my wife stuck with me through high school and now and you know I mean I'm being kind of silly, but just to be vulnerable with our kids and the congregation, the, the hopes and the disappointments that are so consistent.
Speaker 2:And then, I love man, you talk about pastoral practice in terms of how you invite the young ones into understanding what's going on in baptism. Oh, my goodness, I love you, I love you, I love you. That's going to stick with me, bro. That's going to be embedded in my baptismal liturgy for the years to come, because I I've said that, but not exactly exactly like that, and I think it is such a such a powerful incarnational tool for us, sacramentally as as Lutheran followers of Jesus. This has been so, so much fun. Last question what are your primary hopes in this season of life and ministry? We talked a lot about hope. What are you hoping for right now, rick?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm engaged.
Speaker 2:Hmm, Happy happy day, man. Yeah, congratulations.
Speaker 3:I am very hopeful, for a new future has already begun, and and that's exciting to me- Praise God. Praise God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what an honor.
Speaker 3:It's well fun, yeah, anything else. You know, I, I love being a dad and I love being Paw Paw and I lean into that every chance I get. Hmm, those that, that, that title, paw Paw, probably it's just about as most important thing I've ever heard in my life.
Speaker 2:That's grandpa, right, that's grandpa, that's grandpa.
Speaker 3:Now you, you're not. You're not there yet. Your kids are younger and you know. But you will be, god willing, one day and you're just going to love it, man.
Speaker 2:Air just going to love it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know I think I like my volunteer work that I'm doing. I, I, I feel like I'm a part of a team that's making a difference in people's lives. I'm so I, you know one of the guys that I was working with in the program, who has been in some bad places, has done some bad things has begun to learn what it means to have an identity in Christ for the first time ever.
Speaker 3:And it's just changing him and I I just this last week he invited me to come to his baptism and I got to go and see him and five other people from the program baptized and he was so, so excited. He was hugging and fist bumping and he got it. He was new, god had shown up and was doing the work in his life and he, he's got a lot to live for. He hasn't had a relationship with his children but he he sees some opportunities but he has to have a different life before that's going to be allowed.
Speaker 3:And he'll say I'm not going back. He says if, if I go back to using again and going down that same road, he said I'll never get to be a father and that's something that's just top priority for him in his life in some level, in some way, to some degree. And one of the big questions that men will will ask me who have children and they've lost those relationships they'll say is in some way. They will ask the question is it too late? And I'll tell them, man, it is never, ever too late Because you're adult children now. I desperately need to know that they have a father who loves them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Rick, this has been so much fun. How can people connect with you if they desire to brother and connect with some of your your books as well?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so you know my email mt317 at sbcglobalnet I think I shared last time. Mt317, matthew 317. Love it, it's the blessing of the Father to Jesus at his baptism. Right, right, yeah, it's kind of part of my life. It's going to have a big deal so, and books, I mean you have some books that you've referenced and articles and things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, People want to check that out. Yeah, I've got a couple of them that are are no longer available.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry to say, the publisher went through a restructuring and and they sort of eliminated certain categories and and so, boy, I'd sure love, I'm sure love, to do a rewrite on a couple of these. Anyway, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thekapırequ certains for you and someierra for you, and read a collar for you. How is that? Drop a A c-e-r e r좀 page. Yeah, you're ready to review your, your passage with me.
Speaker 3:Ok, feel free to think about all of those. There are a few songs just. And I'm pretty excited about and but I'm actually gonna be kind of here to.
Speaker 2:Get your feet well, chat, well, chat no for sure man.
Speaker 2:This has been so good. This is the American Reformation podcast. Sharing is caring. We promise to have compelling Jesus Center to hope filled yeah, future resurrection filled conversations like this. People are walking in the chaos and the darkness and depression. The evil one is having a heyday. This was all a spiritual conversation today, a Holy spirit Inspired conversation, and I pray you were touched by it. We will be back next week with another episode of American Reformation. Rick, you're a joy, you're a blessing in my life, bro. Thank you so much.