Embark on a transformative journey with Reverend Tiago Albrecht as we explore the pressing need for a resurgence of Biblical foundations in today's Christian church. Delving into the heart of what it means to be a follower of Christ, Tiago imparts wisdom on the importance of spiritual connection over material gain. His insights illuminate the path toward a church that is rich in scripture and sacrament, where the resurrected life of Jesus is not just preached but passionately lived out. Join us as we share an invigorating dialogue that reignites the core mission of the church and our individual callings within it.
In our latest episode, the challenges and educational endeavors of young Brazilian pastors serve as a fascinating backdrop to our comparison of the Lutheran church's evolution in Brazil and the LCMS in America. Discover the intricate history of a church body shaped over a century by German immigrants' pursuit of authentic pastoral care, now flourishing across Brazil's varied landscape. We examine how cultural integration and traditional liturgy intersect, considering the distinct challenges of preaching in a nation as vibrant and diverse as Brazil. Reverend Tiago offers profound reflections on how pastors can serve as Christ's embodiment, transcending cultural barriers and living out the Gospel authentically.
The conversation does not shy away from the complex relationship between Christianity and politics, where the church's role in society is both a preserver of values and a beacon amid division. As a former city counselor, I share personal experiences that shed light on the intersection of faith and governance. This episode is not just a discussion; it's a call to action for Christians to rise above political discord, championing our heavenly citizenship and the timeless message of Christ. Tune in for a thought-provoking session that promises to challenge, inspire, and equip believers for the work of reformation in the modern era.
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Embark on a transformative journey with Reverend Tiago Albrecht as we explore the pressing need for a resurgence of Biblical foundations in today's Christian church. Delving into the heart of what it means to be a follower of Christ, Tiago imparts wisdom on the importance of spiritual connection over material gain. His insights illuminate the path toward a church that is rich in scripture and sacrament, where the resurrected life of Jesus is not just preached but passionately lived out. Join us as we share an invigorating dialogue that reignites the core mission of the church and our individual callings within it.
In our latest episode, the challenges and educational endeavors of young Brazilian pastors serve as a fascinating backdrop to our comparison of the Lutheran church's evolution in Brazil and the LCMS in America. Discover the intricate history of a church body shaped over a century by German immigrants' pursuit of authentic pastoral care, now flourishing across Brazil's varied landscape. We examine how cultural integration and traditional liturgy intersect, considering the distinct challenges of preaching in a nation as vibrant and diverse as Brazil. Reverend Tiago offers profound reflections on how pastors can serve as Christ's embodiment, transcending cultural barriers and living out the Gospel authentically.
The conversation does not shy away from the complex relationship between Christianity and politics, where the church's role in society is both a preserver of values and a beacon amid division. As a former city counselor, I share personal experiences that shed light on the intersection of faith and governance. This episode is not just a discussion; it's a call to action for Christians to rise above political discord, championing our heavenly citizenship and the timeless message of Christ. Tune in for a thought-provoking session that promises to challenge, inspire, and equip believers for the work of reformation in the modern era.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray, wherever you're taking this in, that the joy of the Lord is your strength, that you've got your water, your workout in. Maybe you're in the car. Taking this in this conversation today is going to bless you, because it's not going to be about me first. It's going to be about Jesus and then introducing you to one of my Jesus friends from Brazil. I ordained a Lutheran pastor, a sister congregation, a sister church body of the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod. I call and I'm going to get this. I'm going to get this wrong the. I'm going to introduce you to him first and then I'll let him say so. It's Chiago. Reverend Chiago Albrecht, and tell a little bit of his story and hear what the Lord is doing in the Lutheran Church in Brazil. He's just finished taking his STM degree in theology and communication, married with three children. So exciting Baby number three on the way. Is that right, chiago? Has your wife recently had your third child?
Speaker 3:Well, thanks for having me today.
Speaker 1:It's such a pleasure.
Speaker 3:And we are waiting for next May.
Speaker 2:The baby is about 16 weeks.
Speaker 2:And, as you hear, with Chiago's voice, he has a voice for TV and radio. We're going to go TV first. So, if you're checking it out on YouTube, he's a former TV and radio commentator there in Brazil. So, opening question there, chiago, how are you praying for Reformation? And, as I say, the American Christian church a lot of times, us from the US man, we are arrogant. I have been put in my place a time or two. When you hear America, there's a place called North America and South America. I'm well aware of where Brazil is. So, in your context, in Brazil, how are you, how are you praying for Reformation? Thanks so much for being with me today, buddy.
Speaker 3:Thanks again, pastor, while my prayers go on the return to the Bible context, because we've experienced a lot of churches down here that are actually growing fast, but not necessarily people are growing fast in the Lord or even in the biblical, you know, root. We as Lutherans have these, these emphasis on the scripture, but there's no such, there's no such growth apart from from Lord's, lord's award. So I always pray that to my Lutheran church and other churches that would not go apart from from the Bible. Everything starts with the word, everything keeps going with the word, and even in your funeral, you know, the word of the Lord can comfort those who remain. So my prayers are in this direction.
Speaker 3:May, oh Lord, you bless your church in North America, central America, south of South America. May, oh Lord, your church, you know, keep or come back to the word, because sometimes we see churches doing a such a bad job for the gospel. I mean being, you know, a stone that one can trumbles, and you know, because they they moved apart from the word of the God. So that's that's, that's the way I pray nowadays. I love that prayer.
Speaker 2:I love that prayer. Biblical literacy is is declining. I've been captured, captured by the story and we're when this gets, it will probably be the season of Christmas epiphany, something like that, when this podcast gets released. But was reading Henry Nowan now. Have you heard of Henry Nowan Jaggo?
Speaker 2:No no he's kind, he's kind of. He's always Catholic, his Catholic roots, but he he's a really. He's a contemplative, a really good writer, a lot, a lot of books. But he exeggated the story of the, the disciples on the road to Emmaus in such a marvelous way, and and how Jesus is hidden from them. And then he reveals himself to them after the word comes right.
Speaker 2:That points in the old Testament back to Jesus being the promised fulfillment. And then he meets them in the breaking of the bread, right, the sacramental presence of Jesus. And then he, he leaves, which I think is a is a gift to us who have not seen Jesus in the flesh but have received by faith his promised declaration of us on our lives through the waters of baptism. And then he continues to meet us through the breaking of bread, the distribution of wine, his very body and and blood, the mystery of the sacramental presence of Christ. And then they cannot help but but go and share the word, the resurrection reality word. Seven miles they travel. It says back to James, a Boston, a back to Peter and the other disciples. They'd be bussed into that room. We've, we've seen the Lord.
Speaker 2:He's risen just as just as he promised to. So yeah, anything, anything more to add to that? Yeah.
Speaker 3:No, I would add in my, in my first word, that I'm not here talking necessarily about being an apologetic. You know a real presence in the, in the Holy Communion stuff. I'm actually going to the very basis. I mean a lot of churches, but all emphasis in the human being. I mean, if you do this, this deal with the Lord and then the Lord will bless you, and blah, blah, blah. So I'm talking about the, the Christian church, actually coming back to the very roots of the faith. Jesus is the Lord, his love. He wants us, not our money, he wants to bless us.
Speaker 3:There's actually this, one of the, the biggest new Pentecostal churches in Brazil. They use it to have this sign on the doors Stop suffering. And this is a lie. I mean once, once you, you become a Christian or you enter in a church, you won't, you won't stop suffering because the old Adam is right there. You know, as the, as the Bible says the, the scene actually grabs you very tightly. You know, the, the good that I want to do, says Paul, saint Paul, I won't do. I mean so that's, that's the very basis I'm not talking about. Oh, let's, let's be apologetic on the real presence in the supper, baptizing children and grown people. It's some steps before you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and to look at the world as it is, that's what the word leads us to do. To rightly view, there is suffering and Jesus entered into that and he doesn't promise. In this world you will have trouble.
Speaker 3:Take heart right, have great courage of overcome overcome the world Go ahead and they say well, if you, if you deal with the Lord with faith, you shall be rewarded. And if one doesn't get the reward, oh, you didn't have enough faith. So it's such a, it's almost a crime to me. I mean, that's not our Lord, that's not our God. He doesn't act like that. So I'm talking about the very basis of the Christian faith and such yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So let's help our help, our listeners, understand the culture of Brazil, your ministry journey there in Brazil, what the Lord has taught you, and then you can kind of lean into how our Lutheran confessions, kind of our Lutheran faith, how that is so different like you're talking about. And then I know in many places in central and South America the charismatic church is is kind of booming, health, wealth, prosperity. And you could say in many respects here in the United States of America too, people want that itching ear message rather than the true story of the of the gospel God entering, entering into our, our suffering and our struggle for us by the cross, the way of the cross, which is what we preach right Christ crucified. So tell us your ministry journey there in Brazil.
Speaker 3:Well, I graduated in 2009. I spent one year of my my time at the seminary in San Luis in the exchange program, so I had this opportunity to attend classes up there. And then, in 2009, I was sent to Macapa city, which is the capital of Amapai state, which is actually in the Northern hemisphere within Brazil. But Northern hemisphere, yeah, that's you know, and it's by the, by the, by the, by the, by the, by the, by the, by the Amazon forest, not in in the jungle, but by the Amazon forest. It's regarded as Amazon forest place. So it's another Brazil, who speaks Portuguese, another culture, another ethnicities, kinds of people, you know, another type of foods, the, the cuisine there was different. So it was such a blessing. I spent two whole years up there and the Lord, I used I used to say that I it counted like 10 years I was up there in two years I could learn Well, fantastically.
Speaker 3:And then I took a call to Southern Brazil, curitiba city, which is one hour flying from San Paolo, one hour and a half from Rio. And then my wife was elected to be vice president of our church, as a non clergy position, the vice president for communications in our church body.
Speaker 2:Now is this a church body now, yeah, in the headquarter National, in headquarters, got it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have two vice presidencies that are for late people as well Administration, money and communications. One does not need to be passed. We don't ordain women pastors. And then she spent two terms, eight years, and I served two small churches in this town I live in a town in about 1.3 million people and then I chose to run for politics, so I took a license from ministry and now I'm currently a city counselor of this 1.3 million people city, which is called Porto Alegre. Happy port would be the year of translation. So, and besides that or aside that, I work in TV and radio stations as a commentator for general affairs, politics, economics and stuff like that. So that's my experience.
Speaker 2:Dude Chiaga, you're a unique man, thank you. You get to be yeah, God's given you so many gifts, so many experiences, and you get to live in the left and the right hand kingdom so consistently. So go back. You spent some time here in the United States. As we try to understand the Lutheran expression, confessional Lutheranism there in Brazil, how is it different, in your opinion, from how it gets expressed here in the United States of America, especially given your time at Dacquiancordia St Louis and Seminary, which is my alma mater?
Speaker 3:So general thoughts there. You graduated from.
Speaker 2:St Louis. I did yeah in 2008. So when you were there in seven, you said, right, Nine, oh, nine, nine, okay. So we just missed each other by here. My brother was in 2007 there.
Speaker 3:All correct. We're doing the exchange program as well, I think I remember him Anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what experiences you experienced in Culturally?
Speaker 3:Today. Yeah, I am more beautiful than him, so you won't remember Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 3:Well it all starts with the age. You enter in the Seminary Down here you do your college degree in theology. So your college degree, your major and minor are in theology. Meanwhile you are attending college, you attend seminary. So your first exegesis class you'll be like 19 years old. You leave services with 20, 21 years old. You do vicarage with 22. Yeah, 22. So I think one starts earlier here and it has to do with the maturity. You say Maturity like Well, that's right, you got it.
Speaker 3:So, in America you start right after college or even later. So I think the student in LCMS has more tools to research and to think about theology. Meanwhile in the seminary I was like 20, 21 years old and I was bearing people, baptizing people in the vicarage. Wow, yeah. So. And then after you finish your college career, you go to the vicarage and then one whole year and then you return for another one whole year as a final year. So you guys have four years at a seminary. We would have like six, but college plus seminary. You might have classes morning, afternoon, night. So you do homiletics in the seminary while you are going to the colleges studying, like exegesis, on New Testament or such. So it's kind of more harder to Brazilians because you leave the secondary school like you say Secondary yeah, you're talking college.
Speaker 2:No, before college, before college High school, high school. Sorry, I forgot that word High school.
Speaker 3:You just finish your high school, you jump into the seminary and people see this is our future pastors. So in America you have more tools. Once you have more tools to research and think you can go deeper and then your pastors might have a deeper feature to go into the ministry. You know what I'm saying. You are more mature. Do you have more tools? You studied more because you are more mature to you know, think homiletically, to think about how to deal with counseling, stuff like that. Or even you know the shortcuts to do exegesis, to deal with Hebrew and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:So that's good, yeah, so with? So tell me.
Speaker 3:Go ahead. I was going to say, with 23 years old, what to expect from this young pastor as a leader, as a person who managed like 800 people or 400 people. There's some places in Brazil that the pastors attend 12 congregations or spots of preaching. Oh my, so you know, as a young pastor, I mean it's very, it's rough, man, I mean it starts from this background, the differences into ministry and you know, church body and stuff. Wow.
Speaker 2:Wow. So what year was the church body founded? Did the LCMS tell me the story? Did the LCMS help plant and start the Lutheran church there in Brazil?
Speaker 3:Not actually the emperor of Germany passed a law that would only exist reformation people and Catholic people, some Germans like CFW, water and Walter and other people. They ran into America, some came to Brazil, some came to Argentina, some came to South Africa, australia and blah, blah, blah. So these people who came to our country, they were both Orthodox Lutherans, but some liberal Lutherans. Those liberal Lutherans they didn't give anything, for you know whatever if I have a foreign pastor or you know a visiting pastor, whatever back-and-see pastor and stuff. But these Orthodox people they were feeling the necessity of pastoral care and compassion. And then they wrote up to LCMS and the England district I don't know the name, but I don't remember the name of your scene back then, whatever. And then they sent this missionary down here I think was Reverend Brothers, and then he came to this very state where I live. I live in a state like Wisconsin, tons of German people, tons of Lutherans and stuff like that. My state is like Wisconsin or Milwaukee, but I think Wisconsin. And then this pastor came over and started to run in the cities and in his final report was Brazil is not a good missionary field because people only want to know about dancing, drinking beer and partying. See the mentalities. If I don't have mission to do with these people, which people will be missionary goal? That was the report.
Speaker 3:Then this pastor brothers went over to the port not in this city, but 20 miles southern and then, here, while he was waiting for the ship to go back to America, a person maybe in the hotel, I don't know where said Well, I've heard from this German family, they are looking for real pastors because they were deceived. You know bad pastors, pastors that were not graduated, and these people are requesting. It's about 30 miles away from the port. Okay, I have three days till the ship departs, I'll go there. And then pastor brothers went there and the Gouverd family, the Gouverd father house, said Okay, you are pastor, so sit down, I will test you.
Speaker 3:And then he brings his small cataclysm in Gothic German, roting Gothic types. And then, well, pastors start telling what you preach, what you do in baptism, holy stuff. And then pastor brothers start telling this man and he said Okay, so now you are now one, you are our pastor. So that's how the Lord changed everything. And then this brother brothers, the last name brothers, he did not take that ship back to America, he stayed. And how everything actually started.
Speaker 2:So what are we talking? Like the 1870s? It's actually 1900. Okay, 1900.
Speaker 3:Wow, that's a cool story.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:I love it. Fast forward, you know, 120 some years later. How big is the church body and is it throughout all of Brazil? Talk about that and I love the way you say that so connects to us Wisconsin. There's a lot, a lot of, because your roots are German, right, you're from.
Speaker 1:Germany, your ancestors came.
Speaker 2:Okay, wow, so cool so tell the story of what God has done in the last 120 years.
Speaker 3:Well, our church body. Now is I tease. I do this, this, this, this display this joke that we have 250,000 souls but bodies we see about 100,000.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that we have that. We have that same joke. We have that same joke here in the US in the LCMS same joke. Same joke 3 million, probably more like 1.5. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So we have 250,000 members. We use it to have two seminaries. Now we have one seminary. We have about 1000, 1000, 1000 pastors and 1400 congregations and points of mission, as we say, spots where the word is preached.
Speaker 2:Do you have let's talk about, like the worship, worship life here in the United States, especially since contemporary music kind of came out and we have some of those kind of conflicts? What is the worship life like in the church in Brazil? Do you have any kind of worship struggles, conflicts, or especially the different contexts? Because America is very diverse, right, the United States of America is very, very culturally diverse and so the worship thing can be a point of contention. Tell us about some areas where you're trying to wrestle as a church body right now, thiago.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is the point where we are very alike. Lcms and IELB, the Lutheran Church in Brazil, b goes for Brazil, because we are multi-faced or, you know, multicultural country. The one thing that is worthy of saying we have much less cold that you have, I think, countries where you get snow, where you get negative degrees. You are more formal people. When I lived in America, people in Missouri would wear some tie to attend church, a nice jacket. In Brazil we don't have that formal way anywhere anymore. Even here in the southern Brazil, which is the coldest place in Brazil, you won't see people wearing a tie and stuff. So we are more informal. It's growing. It's currently growing these contemporary ways of worshiping, which is, on the one hand, good because we as a church we need to be concerned about how people worship.
Speaker 3:The liturgy is the work of the people, as the word would stand for in Greek, but on the other hand, you kind of import theology through music and worship ways. So I think we are alike. We have those who stand for the regular liturgy, but you do have those who like more worshiping. Raise your hand. I would say we are more bland. You have some hymnal hymns in the service. You would have some Michael Smith music. You would have contemporary songs, but I would say we are bland. Not too much high church but not too much liberals, whatever. No, we are bland because it depends on like in the country. Amongst Germans you won't sing Michael J Smith, but in Rio, sao Paulo or even the Northeast Brazil, you shall use more contemporary issues and elements.
Speaker 2:Man, thiago, I don't know that. I have ever heard that distinction, North and South. And so a little bit of the sociology. In the United States of America there's one definition of what it means to be the LCMS more conservative and I like how you use the word formal in the Midwest, and I think more of those churches are less inclined to have any sort of change in the liturgy, contemporary worship etc. And then they define us down here maybe as more open or less formal liberal, though we're not theologically liberal. The culture is just radically different here.
Speaker 2:Like it would be very, very strange for me culturally. I'm just thinking about our less formal worship space, still liturgical invocation through benediction. It would be very strange for me to dress up in a suit and tie in that, or to wear a clerical collar, which I have a lot of clerical collars. That would be very culturally, culturally strange, like, even even wearing something like something like this. You know, these are all signal signs of like, right, our dress and and, yeah, that that is a major indicator of our struggles here in the LCMS, from the cold to the, the warm, more open places. That's beautiful. Thank you for that. That's a gift to me. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3:No, I was. I was going to say that one struggle that again and again comes to the table down here in Brazil is do we actually an actual have a Brazilian Lutheran Church, or we have a Lutheran Church who is in Brazil? You know what I'm saying? Those hams, the poetry, the, the tunes. If you go to the him, the tunes are some kind of Gothic, or even Greek, or even you know, or it's actually.
Speaker 2:German it's not Brazilian.
Speaker 3:So we do have some, some, some Brazilian Lutheran, brazilian music, music and musicians, but this struggle we still have nowadays Are we a Brazilian Lutheran Church or are we a Lutheran Church in Brazil?
Speaker 2:So and you think you ought to become the former you mean Brazilian Lutheran that you should be more culturally sensitive. What are some of your thoughts there?
Speaker 3:My thoughts go into the direction. We are not a Brazilian Lutheran Church Because, on one hand, some have laziness of thinking outside of the box. Unfortunately, a lot of pastors and leaders, they just want to. They just go through the pages of him. Now let's suggest that liturgy, that's enough for us. On the other hand, you have very, very well-intended people that would import, just for importing Contemporary worship does not mean that it is Brazilian worship. So sometimes you import some bad theology through those, those kinds of music and preaching, stuff like that. So I would say that we have improved.
Speaker 3:I would say that there's a lot of people concerned about what is going to be our church within 50 years, because you have just gray hair people attending our worships. 80% are 50 plus 40 plus. So I think we are still in the road. We are not a Brazilian Lutheran Church, but I think we are actually praying on that and working and concerned about that. And my STM degree was on preaching and this is, I think, the most criticized area in our church body against pastors. If you, if you pick one topic, people would say our preaching does not talk to me as a Brazilian, 21st century attendee, it's, it's, it's stuck to the homilatic strategy and stuff like that are stuck in the 70s, in the 60s, in ancient theories that would not you know and this is not about the, the, the, the feature, the, the in the theology.
Speaker 3:It's about the dress, it's about the. You know the box. You deliver the food, the spiritual food, to people. Wow, Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:It does. It does and I think the way I could speak to it is is the incarnation of, of the preacher, taking our cue from the incarnation of of Christ right, who stepped into, and this has been. This is why the church has grown is because the gospel message of Jesus passed through a Jewish culture and context and then was able to be translated to, to Gentiles. This is right, this is. And so those, those indicators, those forms, those are all signs that point you to the ultimate sign, which is Jesus and salvation in Jesus. But then the apostle Paul is is wrestling with this. I became all things, all people you know, all possible means might win some. He's not changing the content, but he is sensitive to the cultural norm so that the gospel can transcend those, those cultures. It's have you ever thought about this? Like the gospel of Jesus is the greatest uniting thought and belief worldview, crossing every respective culture. And so we shouldn't be, we shouldn't be afraid.
Speaker 2:I don't think of, of saying, you know, I will maybe dress, I may, I may speak in a different way for us. So what I've done? Ministry in Hispanic communities, latin American communities, as well as lower income communities, and so I recognize that I may need to be slower. I recognize all of my jokes. Right May not work there. I also recognize that humor, especially in a lower income community. Humor is my friend and they have to like me before they're going to listen to me. So I may use a little bit more humor in a in a highly affluent community.
Speaker 2:I'm going def. I'm definitely going to need to speak a little faster. My face has to be a little bit more engaging with them. That doesn't mean I'm not going to get around to Christ for you. You know the Lutheran confession of Jesus's Lord, right, and I think we we wrestle with a lot of those cultural signs and we just don't exegete. Maybe this is where I can land it. I don't think pastors exegete their community as well as they could and should. We love to exegete the scriptures, but maybe we don't exegete our community and how the gospel can translate into that community. Go ahead, jaguar, are, are we?
Speaker 3:trained for that. I don't know that we are to exegit our people, our congregations or are we trying to?
Speaker 3:repeat. Sure, I'm in the same page with you. But my question, looking through Brazil, not necessarily to America, I attended almost 15 years ago, a lot of time between us here now and back then. But my question is because Lutheran theology is more for repetition, the most cranky heresies comes from Germany, not from America and Brazil and the Lutheranism because in Germany they are allowed to think and to do. In America and in Brazil we are trying to repeat theology in a rational way. And then, once you are trying just to repeat well, if I go do ministry in inner city ministry, I will repeat. If I'll do Spanish ministry, I'll repeat. If I go to Kentucky, in the country, I'll do the same. So I wonder if are we trained to realize, and that's what my shock and my victory, because I did in DC, in Brasilia DC, in the intercity ministry Our suburban ministries are not like yours. In the suburb, here the less incoming people lives, I think opposite in America.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's the very opposite. If you say suburban people here, you are offending people here in Brazil. So I did my vicarage there in the DC area and then I went, my first love, my first call was to you know, northern Brazil, northern hemisphere, by Amazon first. And then I got shocked because I was not trained to be a Lutheran pastor for that people. So I kind of you know, you kind of struggle, you kind of wrestle in the very beginning and I was like 400 miles away from the nearest pastor, lutheran pastor. You know, wow, yeah, separated by a river, amazon river.
Speaker 3:It's actually a big city, it's half a million people, it's a capital, but one small church there, almost like a church planter. I was up there. And then you are pastor, you are a fireman, you are a psychologist for these people, you are an older brother for these people, your car is their car. So yeah, I mean 80% of Brazil. You cannot actually open the Book of Concord and study with people. People doesn't have that level of thinking that you would. You know about the actually justification by faith. I mean the majority of the churches down here. They say you got to accept Jesus and then be baptized. So to explain about infant baptism is very hard to people, so Hmm.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 2:It is what it is, yeah it is what it is, and I just the wrestle is very real and I think we need to have a lot of care for one another in our diverse contexts and to recognize that people, well one, are broken and the way we get discipled, if you will, in our various cultures may not be after the heart and mind of Jesus. And so do we? Do we say I wash my hands? Or do we say with Jesus, I'm going to enter into life with you and I'm going to use the forms? I mean, just think of how Jesus communicates in the gospels you, you, you've been fishing for fish, you're a dirty fisherman, now come fish for people. Right, you've seen, we're walking along. The gospel goes out like like a farmer who scatter seed, right, it's an agrarian culture, and, and he uses all of these images, what would Jesus, what would Jesus say today? I mean, I think Jesus would use what he sees, and I think we should have the freedom, as communicators of the gospel, to use the metaphors and analogies that we see to point people to the life, death and resurrection of of Jesus. So are do you? Let me?
Speaker 2:Let me go a little deeper into into preaching too, as you make just a general statement about about preaching there in Brazil is some of it very formulaic and even kind of straight, or what we would say is flat, right, just bub, bub, bub, bub, bub, bub, bub, bub, bub. And I'm reading it. I'm reading it probably, you know, cause I don't want to get anything wrong. The formula kind of wrong. These are some of the struggles we have here with, with preaching. That's it. What are? What are you praying for? As it relates to communicating the gospel there in Brazil.
Speaker 3:Our sermons are still preached to be written and not to be heard. So that changes the game If you deliver a message which is to be, you know, heard rather than reading a read, you know. So I think this is our gap down here. We don't. We don't speak people's life language. We don't get, I mean the, the person who comes to church, the ordinary people, they, they practice.
Speaker 3:The Lutheranese Christian is whatever you call it. Well, they already believe. And if you repeat, you know, lord saves you, lord loves you. And then it says in the book of Ezekiel and what I? Okay, but how do I apply that to my marriage, which is about to fall?
Speaker 3:What do I do with my kids that does not, that don't want to go to church? How do I deal, since I am employed, I'm in depression, I got cancer, I'm tested in my faith. Somebody came to my office and offered me bribe. I'm a Polish man, I'm a whatever man in the government, I'm a. I'm a city counselor. How do I deal with that? So I prefer the church, who tries and fails to connect, rather than the other.
Speaker 3:Well, I preached, I said Jesus is the Lord, wow, okay. So now with the Holy Spirit? Okay, the Holy Spirit is the comfort of the paracletus. But my, my, my STM thesis was on actually it's a, it's a, you know it's a in basketball, you just throw the ball up and then there's this dispute and my, my, my, my thesis is just the very beginning. Yeah, I mean, I'm just beginning, I, I, I do not pretend to offer the solution of everything, but I think we have to talk about and that's hard for pastors, because the pastor is, is put in the is, is, is at this pot, lights on the pastor and he's the liver of the message. So I'm convinced that we, we, we have to do a reformation in confessional Lutheran preaching. We have to be more embodied in our preaching, because there's this phrase one of the fathers of the church I'm not if it's a Saint Augustine or who said that that Christians read the Bible, non Christians read the Christian. Does that make sense? I don't know. Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:If you have ever done that, oh, I love that. I love that. Well, I mean, we are the first taste and the words that we speak, the first taste and to the tongue and the first words of of the message of Jesus. Yes, yes. Okay, keep going, keep going.
Speaker 3:Peter says that live, live letters. I don't know how, how, what, what is the word in? I'm thinking Portuguese, but Saint Peter says that in one of his letters you are leaving letters. That's right, yes.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:So my, my point is, if we want to be a Brazilian Lutheran church, we gotta speak to let's try Brazilian Lutheran attendees. So sometimes I think that we try to reconvert every single service that people who attend. Okay, one has to repent, to confess, and that's relief, I mean. That's, you know, you take a burden, you put in Christ. But now, what? You know, what do I do with this problem that I got in my personal life, in my marriage life, you know? So I think, well, there's people trying really hard and failing and achieving, but they are trying, and there's people who criticize them and they say, oh, this is too much, blah, blah, blah, this is neo-Penacostal style. Whatever, I don't care, I want people, I want people fed with the gospel, with the sanctification life.
Speaker 3:You know, we, we this is a jargon, but we Lutherans are afraid to preach on sanctification, because when the pastor preaches about sanctification, the pastor has to practice that. How can I preach on not telling bad words if I am a bad-word person? How can I speak about pornography? How can I speak about marriage if my marriage sucks? That? I don't sorry about this word.
Speaker 3:My marriage is, you know, I mean the person, the person of the pastor.
Speaker 3:When St Paul says the person of the pastor needs to be spouse of one woman, not given to the alcohol and stuff like that, I think I think I think it's a hard, it's, it's a burden to be a pastor, it's a blessing, but sometimes it's a burden because you have to be the first spark in order to go into the pulpit, not as a legalist, not as somebody who wants to be a Pharisee, but somebody who is sinner but tries, tries hard to live in sanctification. And when people see this, when people read this you said about your Spanish people in Brazil, is, is, is alike. I mean you first has to conquer their you know acceptance and then they will listen to you. But you have to be, you know, an outgoing person, a nice person who likes, you know, in formal ways, what is the soccer game passing on TV this night and stuff like that. You gotta be, you know, not formal at all, and then you will enter in their heart and then you know their problems and then you know what to preach.
Speaker 3:There's, there's this phrase I don't know, I'm, I'm, I'm not a good minded. Remember people, the pastor who visits the member, the member will visit the church. I mean, if you go after your, your, your, your member, your flock, if you are the pastor, has to smell like sheep. If the pastor smell like sheep, other ships, even those derouted, or even not ships, yet you know they will smell all. This guy smells ship, this guy is their bird and not a perfect person, but a person who actually tries hard, who actually wants to speak to this specific, specific flock and not to, you know, a 16th century minded people that sometimes we, we tend to, you know yes.
Speaker 3:Oh, I speak too much. I know I'm a radio commentator.
Speaker 2:This is so fun. This I just agree with the human condition, um being trying to justify myself, set myself apart from um. You know sin. Sin leads us to separation from God and then deep Christian community and pastors need to model. I love that image of smelling like the sheep. And where do we learn that? From the good shepherd? His name is Jesus and the Pharisees. Why did they crucify him? It's cause he smelled like the sheep. He was hanging out with sinners and tax collectors. He's got. He's got smelly dudes that are around him. He called Peter, he called these kind of, these kinds of guys, and those are the guys. That was the. These are unlearned, unschooled men in the book of acts, right?
Speaker 2:They, they, they were smelly, they were dirty, they were with the people. And so, if, if, pastors and leaders can't, this is the the move from a pastor, um, becoming truly a pastor, a one who cares for the souls of their members. And then what's our greatest evangelism strategy? As, as my pastor is following Jesus, I'm going to follow and he's not perfect, Just like you say, but I'm going to follow this man and this group of people. Hopefully there's a pastor is not doing it by himself. You know, he's got people with different gifts, um, and we're all going on this journey to make Jesus known. And then evangelism, like sharing the gospel, just occurs.
Speaker 2:I've been wrestling with this Like, why should a pastor even have to? Because the aroma of Christ is all over him and and his people? Like he doesn't have to cajole or prod or poke. You need to share your faith and invite your neighbor to. No, no, no, no, no. This is just and you cannot in the book of Acts, you cannot help, but you can't stop talking about Jesus. It's just the way. You've become smelly, like him and the original of Christ.
Speaker 3:Go ahead. My Greek is not that good anymore, but if you go to Matthew 28, the, the verb tense of the goal, therefore, is not go, actually it's as you go, go and make disciples, so I like that.
Speaker 3:Some people are sent by the church, by the Holy Spirit, okay, but ordinary people, regular, regular people. Um, as you go, I mean, you are in the supermarket being a cashier. Show Jesus. There's this. One another phrase from a church father, I think it's from who, who, who, who, who. What is the name in English now? Um is ostomus crissostom crissostom, crissostom, crissostom, maybe.
Speaker 3:Um, it said. The phrase says uh, witness always all the time and speak when needed. I mean you, you, you testify, you witness you martyr sin. Uh, uh, all the time, and and speak when needed. So I like that and I, I, I think this is, this is more what we are where we are you know.
Speaker 2:So uh, st Frant, uh, st Francis, I think St Francis in English. Yeah, st Francis, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, st Francis, yeah, st Francis, right, right, thank you, thank you, yeah, uh, and um, yeah, I mean, if you have this minded and then you can talk about the deals that people has in their regular life. Okay, the genealogy of Salomon is important in some point of, but people does not want to to know that, or how many kingdoms Israel had in in a given time. They want to hear from Jesus.
Speaker 3:Jesus what do I do with my marriage? I got cancer, jesus, and then I go to the church to relate with God, to be pardoned by God. But I want to hear his voice, a message who actually talks and kind of give me tools, spiritual tools to deal, you know, during the week.
Speaker 2:Well, I love Chicago, how you're modeling that um right now as a city council man. Um, I mean, you are, you are with the people. So how does how does this cause living in the right and left hand kingdom, still as an active pastor, but you're serving basically Bible or co vocationally, right, uh, in your work as a city councilman? How is the story of Jesus influencing your work as a city councilman?
Speaker 3:Totally, totally. Because when you deal with people in poor neighborhoods or in their needs, well, as long as I was a pastor only in suburban areas, brazilian suburban areas you know less incoming lacks of you know good drinkable water, sometimes slums, favelas in Portuguese. So I got to have this touch with people to hear An entrepreneur told me actually taught me 90% of the solution is hearing the person who demands you more than trying to just hear, just listen what the person is complaining. So it models everything, starting from one's you know wholeness way of dealing with not accepting bribe, not accepting, you know, be blackmailed or you know.
Speaker 2:so you have integrity. Integrity is a word we use here.
Speaker 3:Integrity, yes, yeah, that's the same here, Starting integrity and going to the streets when you are facing people's pains and lacks and you try to go after a solution. Even though I am not the mayor, the executive power, I can connect people with the solution or connect people with the persons in the executive power that would help them. So I am Christ-minded city counselor, even though, even though, and if somebody is watching or listening this and wants to go to the politics or still is different from church, where ministry and being a Christian flourishes the best of us in the politics, the politics try to flourish the worst in you, angry hate. I have to be better than that guy. That guy is trying to cheat me.
Speaker 3:That guy is trying to, you know, steal my votes, my voters and stuff like that. So the Christian has. I have actually a book written. Let me see if I have here. I have written this book. That is through our CPH.
Speaker 1:Oh cool.
Speaker 3:Can you see this? Yeah, in English would be East politics, a devil's thing from the devil, from Satan's thing is a question, and we say, no, the Lord has created both. Well, I wrote this with a congressman from DC. He's Lutheran as well. But one has to, you know, has to be aware and to pray that the politics flourish your best, not your worst, because man out there in the world, there's this verse that says the world lays in the devil. Right, I don't know, in the English translation that's okay.
Speaker 3:You got it right the world lays rests in devil man. That's absolutely correct. So, yes, christians, I think it's harder sorry, it's harder to be a politician than a pastor, in this sense because within the church, you are motivated by what is good, eternal salvation, loving people and politics. You should be motivated, but party politics are just ugly man.
Speaker 2:Really ugly, really ugly. Well, america, the United States of America, be praying for us because our upcoming presidential vote. If it goes one way or another, many people are questioning how peace will reign in our land, because we are so divided or polarized. And then you get churches that kind of take certain stands with different parties and then it becomes super, super messy. I mean, in my preaching, same here, same same. I mean I don't have to say a whole lot, but I can talk about polarization, I can talk about the need for unity within the church and I can talk about some of the secular moves that are going on in our world and how that impacts us as Christians, around gender and sex and control by the government and things like this. And some people will listen to me say that and this is right, it's not one party or another.
Speaker 2:I think it's all just kind of really really messy and should be a heart cry for us as Christians to say man, we need Jesus, we need a king, we need the king, jesus, to enter in and be Lord of our lives.
Speaker 2:Because the media, the interconnection between the media and the government, their goal is to just keep us angry, keep us anxious, keep us looking for solutions where solutions are not found in the things of this world, and so you get to, as a politician, kind of have that higher level, set your mind on things above, right, where Christ is, and that allows us then to enter into the things below with more peace, more patience, more kindness. So talk about what are some of the dividing lines there? I mentioned some in the United States of America, which makes it very complex for a preacher to. How do we speak into these things? It should be connected to the Word of God. Right, stay in the book, stay in the Word of God. But how are you? What are some of the issues that you're kind of walking through right now politically there in Brazil?
Speaker 3:We face, since we are in the western world. We face the very same problems that you face up there, with a five or 10 years delay. I mean, what you will face next year in your general elections we shall face in 2026, which are the next general elections. But we face the same I used to say that as Leonardo Boff and the Libertation Theology. Have you heard about it? The Libertation Theology, which says the sin is one making another poor. Liberating or handsomming from the sin is a person becoming rich. It's a kind of left wing theology.
Speaker 2:So yeah, let me bring it to what we hear here. The sin is there's a good group of people and there's a bad group of people, and the bad group of people are the oppressor and the good people are the oppressed. Is that what you're speaking to?
Speaker 3:Thiago. Yeah, yeah, it's a kind of a left wing theology, but the right wing theology and this is very ugly for the evangelical church says that a Christian only votes for this, like if you are a Christian, you vote for Trump, or if you are a really Christian, you vote for Biden. This is heresy. I mean, our hope is not in this world. Our homeland is in the heaven. So I think that the church, as a salt to conserve, to give taste and light, should not do a further step into the party politics.
Speaker 3:The church does do politics in the in the Greek time, the politicals, the one who takes care of the police, p O L E L E I S actually police in Greek. So this is what we are facing here. They are mixing both. I am a right wing party person, but as a theologian, I think both sides are mixing theology and party politics, which is very bad for the gospel, and we might lose people from our churches if we do that, because this Catholic Libertation Theology that I mentioned actually was very bad for Catholic Church down here in Central America, so on. That's what if we face the same thing here, man?
Speaker 2:Chiago, you're the man, bro, I could talk to you.
Speaker 2:I'd love to get into more and maybe we'll have you back on to talk more about the church in church, in state, I think there's we only touched a little bit that I would like to talk about and before I, before I close the podcast, you are brilliant and you make me while you've made me feel good, but I think you'll understand this, you, those of you who are by and try lingual you make us Americans who only know English, feel I feel I'm humble. I'm humble to be with you as you, as you translate, because Portuguese is your main language and you've learned English enough to study here in the United States of America. You also can speak Spanish and things like that. I'm learning Spanish and it's a humbling, a humbling experience. Our church is partnering with the Lutheran Church in Mexico, the Mexican Lutheran Synod, and so my goal is next September, I can have more conversation with my brothers and sisters in Spanish. So shout out to Duolingo helping me, helping me do that.
Speaker 2:So you were hey, muy bueno, yeah, yeah, moving Jesus is so good and he shines in you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for being his light and being connected man four hours apart, way down south, hanging out with our listeners today praying for the Lutheran Church in Brazil. Praying for you is you raise up leaders who can exegete the scriptures and exegete their community well, to bring the never changing gospel of Jesus to people walking in darkness. This is the American Reformation podcast. We'll be back next week with another episode with leaders like Chiaigo. God bless you. Thank you so much, brother, amen.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me, and anytime you need me I'll be here.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it Next time. Until then, we'll see you next week on American Reformation. Thanks, chiaigo, thank you.