Jeffrey Fellman brings us compassionate insights due to his unique experience that intersects pastoral care, child abuse investigation, and foster care program direction. Join us for a riveting conversation that draws upon Jeff's expertise to address the imperative of a trauma-informed church, exploring the potential within our congregations to become sanctuaries of healing. We delve into the transformative effects of recognizing our painful experiences not as solely burdens but as wellsprings of empathy and purpose, empowering us to serve others with profound understanding and grace.
Our dialogue with Jeff ventures into the intricate dance of building emotionally healthy relationships, particularly within marriages and church community dynamics. We uncover the critical role of unraveling automatic threat responses that often sabotage intimacy and explore how these insights can revolutionize our approach to fostering deep connections. The episode also sheds light on 'Soul Restore,' an initiative that exemplifies growth and healing through Jesus, and we reflect on the life-affirming principles extracted from Psalm 23 that guide us in nurturing our souls.
As our discussion unfolds, not only do we share our own stories of vulnerability within our ministry, but we also hear the heartrending tale of Jeff Fellman, whose journey through grief and loss reveals the redemptive power of guidance and faith. Wrapping up this powerful episode, we reaffirm the Christian community's crucial role in offering a harbor for the vulnerable and addressing the staggering issue of child abuse with both responsibility and compassion. We leave with an empowering message, encouraging every listener to embrace the capacity for transformation through adversity, and inviting you to continue this journey with us, contributing to the ongoing narrative of American Reformation.
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Jeffrey Fellman brings us compassionate insights due to his unique experience that intersects pastoral care, child abuse investigation, and foster care program direction. Join us for a riveting conversation that draws upon Jeff's expertise to address the imperative of a trauma-informed church, exploring the potential within our congregations to become sanctuaries of healing. We delve into the transformative effects of recognizing our painful experiences not as solely burdens but as wellsprings of empathy and purpose, empowering us to serve others with profound understanding and grace.
Our dialogue with Jeff ventures into the intricate dance of building emotionally healthy relationships, particularly within marriages and church community dynamics. We uncover the critical role of unraveling automatic threat responses that often sabotage intimacy and explore how these insights can revolutionize our approach to fostering deep connections. The episode also sheds light on 'Soul Restore,' an initiative that exemplifies growth and healing through Jesus, and we reflect on the life-affirming principles extracted from Psalm 23 that guide us in nurturing our souls.
As our discussion unfolds, not only do we share our own stories of vulnerability within our ministry, but we also hear the heartrending tale of Jeff Fellman, whose journey through grief and loss reveals the redemptive power of guidance and faith. Wrapping up this powerful episode, we reaffirm the Christian community's crucial role in offering a harbor for the vulnerable and addressing the staggering issue of child abuse with both responsibility and compassion. We leave with an empowering message, encouraging every listener to embrace the capacity for transformation through adversity, and inviting you to continue this journey with us, contributing to the ongoing narrative of American Reformation.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here. I pray, wherever you're taking this conversation in today, that the joy of Jesus, his immense love, his call upon your life and the waters of baptism, his Holy Spirit that leads you in the way of Jesus, into the fruit of the Holy Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, etc. That is what is resting upon you, are enough. You are enough and you're loved by the King of the universe, who laid down his very life for you and then calls you to the life that is truly life. Following him in anticipation of his imminent return to make all things new, today I get the joy of getting to know Jeffrey Feldman. Jeff hung out on a ULC webinar a few months back and I was like man. I got to hear more of this guy's story. He's going to bless you today.
Speaker 2:Jeff Feldman received his Master of Divinity from Asbury Theological Seminary, pastored Christian churches for 12 years. Following this, he was a high-profile child abuse investigator here in the state of Arizona, conducting over 1500 investigations Wow. During this time, jeff opened two Christian faith-based mental health centers. Most recently, he directed statewide foster and therapeutic foster care programs in Arizona and was a certified trauma specialist. Jeff has carried a vision for a Christian, faith-based program to assist in allowing God to heal Our deepest hurts and reclaim our soul's lost blessings. Here in Jesus you will find healing, build God-inspired resilience and get the tools to live out your purpose in helping others. As I said, jeff and I I didn't even know when you jumped on that webinar you live in the great state of Arizona, along with his five children and their families. Thanks so much for hanging out with me today, jeff.
Speaker 3:How are you doing? Absolutely, Tim. Thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 2:No, this is going to be fun. So a standard opening question on this podcast. How are you praying for reformation in the American Christian church?
Speaker 3:Well, I believe there's a shift going on, much like a tectonic shift. The plates in the earth this is. There's lots of different ways we've done church to meet our culture's needs, but right now there is such a huge indication of what I will call a need for a trauma-informed approach to ministry because of post-COVID, because of the awareness of trauma in people's lives. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the ACEs study, but that study unearthed the fact that six in 10 people in our churches have suffered a major childhood trauma that is still affecting them, and almost two of 10 have had four or more. And these are huge traumas and I think the church is needing to adopt a growth mindset, which means to be able to get out of our comfort zone by seeing challenges and discomfort as opportunities and not as things to shy away from.
Speaker 2:Such a major, major shift. So let's talk those traumas in the ACEs study. What types of trauma? Six out of 10, I mean that is staggering in our pews, in our chairs. Six out of 10 have experienced one of those traumas. What types of traumas are we talking about, Jeff?
Speaker 3:We're talking about before you're 18, sexual abuse, physical abuse to the point where there's hospitalization, that there's legal neglect, abandonment, somebody in prison, addiction roughly those are like six or seven of them, but they're all major things which don't just impact the person but the whole family system.
Speaker 2:Well, sure it does, and in time, the church right and how we relate to one another. I mean the breakdown of the family is one of the biggest indicators right that we need this different approach to being church. The way we talk about it in our context is there are many, many people with felt needs. Have you heard churches kind of start to talk about those felt needs and so we got a hope? We call it CG cares, right Cures, care and grief share and all sorts of our small group ministry. Our leaders need to be more informed too, to walk alongside folks that have experienced trauma, who are battling chronic not acute, but chronic anxiety, which is rising consistently, especially in our young people. Are you hearing of more kind of established churches saying, well, we've got to do something to meet, yes, those that are here, but then inspire our congregation to be more, not just well informed but able to enter into the traumas of their neighbor, of their family member? Are you seeing some movement in that direction, jeff?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've seen more churches do like there's a youth first aid mental health conference that I'm going to. I saw churches doing you know mental health first responder, like for youth. Yeah, I've seen new programs like that Abuse in the church conferences nationwide. Yes, I am, but I'm also seeing this is where I feel the cutting edge is not just to be healed but to recognize that's our story and that's where our anointing is. That's where our purpose is to help others, because we don't want to just become us for no more. Let's just all look inward and get healed. You know, like the commandment love others as you love yourself. Well, as that starts with just owning our story and being able to share that and give that away in a way that helps others.
Speaker 2:Amen. Wasn't it Henry Nallen who said we're all wounded healers? Yes, that's a great. That image of my scars is my story. And what is it about the human being, though, jeff, that just would we pull back? When the Holy Spirit isn't inviting us to lean in to the pain, the suffering, the struggle, we pull back and I feel like Satan. He's the liar and he leads us toward paths of shame, and then he flips a script on us no one is gonna be able to love you and care for you, but Jesus is such a different type of a friend, a Lord. He invites us to bring those things to him, obviously first, and then to those that can hold them with us, hold us and hold the pain and the struggle. Could you talk about, kind of the invitation that you give for many people to share their stories of pain and have that be their wounded healer story?
Speaker 3:Yeah, number one to set a culture that it's okay to not be okay. You know, when we can retraumatize people in church, when they come in and have had failures and losses and wounds and then we say all you gotta do is believe and you can have all these great things in the kingdom. They feel fear, they feel shame because it hasn't worked in the past. You know, all they hear is all that they've done wrong, and so it's a real challenge for the church to present the gospel in a way that brings people from. You know, the first thing they feel is I'm bad. When something happens to them, then it's like I'm hurt and I'm hiding. But then finally, you know if we can bring them in to the safe environment, yeah, that's what we need to establish that safe, relational culture.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and pastors, sometimes unknowingly if we. This is why the gospel in our tradition, like preaching the gospel, christ for you, is so necessary. Christ weeping with you, christ burying your sins on the cross, christ rising from the dead to give you hope for a better day. The way you feel now is not the way you'll always feel, and can our faith communities be defined as places where people can grow and look back? Look back and see, man, you, even in the midst of the struggle, you were teaching me, you were guiding me, you were holding me.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to read a book a week right now, jeff, and so my book this week. And then some of them are written, some of them are audio books. We'll see if I get that. It's not a heavy thing, but I just love to read, love to learn. My book this week is called the Gap and the Gain. Have you heard of this book? No, the gap and the gain and really a simple concept.
Speaker 2:He says that unhappy people could be really successful people. They're always measuring themself based on their ideal vision of who they should be in the future, what their life should look like in the future, and they're living in the gap between present and future Psychologists have found that a much better approach where happiness and joy are found is in measuring yourself. You can still have a vision about goals growing, but happiness comes in saying I'm looking back and I'm measuring myself based on where I was and now, where I am today and for us, in a Christian tradition, saying Jesus, you've spoken to me, you've healed me, you've met me. The struggles that I had in the past, the trauma that doesn't define me. I'm different today than I've been. It's a much more gospely way and I look back and measure myself based on what Christ has done for me and how he's claimed me. So any thoughts, though, about that mindset of measuring ourself against that ideal self in the future, over and against the gains that come from kind of the growth mindset. Right, jeff? Yeah, it is.
Speaker 3:There are a lot of things that people have in process. That's a problem, you know we go through life and we just move from one thing to the next. Sometimes they're tragic. Especially as a pastor, you know, we can go from a wedding to a funeral to preaching the next day, to doing this. When do we have time to recognize that we're absorbing secondary trauma? So let alone that and all the other things that have been packed in historically, generationally, into our lives, people. What I believe is that they need to learn how to be fluid with what's happened to them and own it, because science has shown, over 80% of our conscious walking around life is determined by our limbic brain, our instincts, our emotions, our memories, and when that's like playing a movie out in front of us, and if we don't like the movie and it's not functional, then we have to make friends with this process where the Lord can bring that forward, so that we can process it, own our story and realize that's where our anointing is. Then we can go forward with that with purpose and clarity.
Speaker 2:It sounds like you've done some work in family systems theory, jeff. Is that true?
Speaker 3:Yeah, some Is that. The internal family systems. Yeah, there are parts of me that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely parts in me, but chronic anxiety centered in the lower reptilian limbic part of our, the very reactive part of our brain, right, and that's where chronic anxiety is stored. We're fear and anxiety. I'm unsafe or stored, it's not a thought, we're not thinking things there, we're simply reacting and feeling things Reptile in brain just like an alligator, right. It's I see food I hit. You know that kind of a thing. Any response to the systems approach that you found to be helpful in your therapy work.
Speaker 3:Well, right now we're looking at putting together an intensive marriage conference, because we realized that people are reacting out of there like you talked about automatic threat responses based on anxieties and fears and shame from the past. So couples often they want tools and they want to communicate and they want to fix this and that, but this is like rearranging furniture on the Titanic If you're not looking at. Wait a minute. I need a reset. I need to get back and find out why I'm responding to this situation in an automatic way which is hurting us. And then they can bring each other into their stories and say you know, we used to fight here, but now I want to tell you how insecure I feel. Can you help me with this? And when they invite each other into those vulnerabilities, there's a reset in their intimacy.
Speaker 2:What that seems so like we should want, that People should want healthier relationships. You know what is it? I mean, it's a dust statement, but what is it about the human being that doesn't set up the system and structure the accountability? We rarely ask for help? Many of us are struggling. What is it about us that here's something like that? Sure, I got the automatic negative responses, but I'm probably not gonna do a whole lot about it, jeff. I think a lot of people just feel stuck, right. What is it about the human experience that just keeps us stuck?
Speaker 3:So the house is burning down. You know, when I had a residential treatment center for teens and they bring the teen in when it was time to, you know the house is burning down, and then it was like drop them off and you fix them, we'll get them when they're done. But the truth is that I think this is where the church has gone wrong. I think the Western church growth, you know, with the Lord, is not a function of time or information. I think a lot of times I think in the church we think, well, complete this course, go through that, do this, and then you're gonna be spiritually in a place where you can do this. But growth is a function of relationship and trust and I think that's kind of a fundamental Western misdirect that the church has fallen into and we need to get back to being the church and not doing church, not doing church things.
Speaker 3:I don't, you know, peter Schizzaro, maybe you've the emotionally healthy church. You know the statement he makes about you can't be spiritually mature if you're not emotionally healthy. So when is the church gonna start talking about how emotion? What did God intend for emotions? You know, the apostle Paul said it right on, you know, when he said I value the places that I'm weak, and yet I don't see the church doing that. The other thing I will say is I don't think. I don't think there's a lot of demonstration of a way to do this, of processing and making friends with pain. And I know there are programs, but programs only goes far as relationships and I've seen people hide in programs. Often you know where they'll be in there but they're learning, but they're not. And they'll be in marriage growth groups and they're marriage. They're fighting you know what I mean but they're not getting to the root, to the core.
Speaker 2:Do you have any recommendations there, cause I mean, as I'm a pastor at the church. So I'm a pastor at the silver store 2020,. Yeah, I want to hear about it. Tell me about the silver store. But I mean, it seems I don't want another program. I want something that is that is a part of our small group life, our serve life, just our life together as a church. So tell me about silver store, jeff.
Speaker 3:Well, silver store is just about an environment. You know, growth, meeting Jesus. Everything happens where Jesus is and he is in environments that are inviting to him. And so silver store is just about creating an environment of safety and teaching some constructs to help us harvest unprocessed pain so that when someone goes through something sad, they've got an easy ladder to build to lament and understand what that means. But a lot of people don't take time to lament and experience pain, you know, without purpose, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let's get into. Let's get into silver store your eight principles in the book which you can find Amazon anywhere, eight principles especially from Psalm 23. Take us through. You could do all eight or just a handful of them, what you think would be most helpful for us, just to prime the pump on folks, leaders wanting to set that environment for a healthy soul.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay. So there's shifts, eight shifts, if you will. The first is about the pain interrupted by purpose. Where you have pain, you have purpose and giving. These are all come with tools. So the tool here is a prayer of lament and how to build it, and taken from Jesus' prayer of you know, from Psalm 22. And then second one is what is a relationship that is healing and growth producing? There's a lot said about relationships, but research from children who've recovered from trauma identify seven aspects of a relationship that heals. And then third is understanding that our identity he restores our soul. It's like we can't do it, it's not a self-help thing and how to make that shift into an identity exchange.
Speaker 3:And then fourth is making friends with our past, or the process as God, story after story about how people are talking. My pastor, you know, came back from a successful meeting and you know his wife said well, god really showed up and he didn't feel like he got enough affirmation and he was really hurt and he didn't know why. Two or three days later, god showed him through another person that it was about his mom when he was nine, when he became a Christian, and she didn't care and she didn't listen to him. It's amazing how things intrude and interrupt. So when that happens we have to make friends with that process. So and then number you know. The fifth one is then we're kind of getting into it. That's about the positive godly you know, cognitive behavioral, basically with scripture, craig Rochelle. And then six is writing out a purpose plan and a daily thought framework, and then a communication plan in seven and then a lifestyle plan in eight. Wow, that's a lot.
Speaker 2:I wanna go I love it, I love it, I love it. It's a great, great framework for what it looks like for us to grow. Talk about the healing relationship piece. I think a lot of times today our relationships are shallow, selfish. I'm just painting a negative brush here. I'm a very positive person, but I don't see a lot of deeper, soul enriching conversations taking place, and it takes time. I was in a really, really healthy small group for a season and, man, it took a lot of time and trust to get to the place where we were talking about what's going on in our souls. So what are the tools, the environments that you try to create for those healthy, deeper, soul enriching relationships being built?
Speaker 3:Yeah, if I had a template to lay it over all the programs in a church and talk about where to go to build this into the culture. It starts with those seven aspects. And so then you'd say where do we see this or where do we not see it and how can we create places for this? And the first one is so simple it's that people need to be seen, not looked at, not glanced at, but to see their motivations, their heart, their motion, to make hold space for them, to be curious about them. And number two people need to feel soothed, as simple as that sounds, whatever it takes to comfort them. And then people need to feel like being with you helps keep the bad out and the good in to their life. And those three things add up to feeling safe.
Speaker 3:And then, once you're safe, you can truly connect because you're not afraid of you know, you know that they're gonna keep the good in those three things built safety. Then, once you connect, you can empower, you can call people, call what you see in people out and support them to to forgot, to use their gifting. And then the last one is just resourcing. How can we be practical? You know, if your wife, you see your wife has a gifting and you say, honey, I know you want to go to this conference and learn how to you know present, and you know it's a tough thing for us to afford that, but I've made these changes so that you can go. Now. That's resourcing at the end, yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's a ladder.
Speaker 3:So I would look at you know the church and say, where do people feel seen? Well, it's hard, it's busy on Sunday, it's hey, how's your week going? Great, but where's that place? Maybe, maybe it's even just once a month. You know that the pastor stays late and says it before Sunday. I'm here for two hours and if you let's just hang out and I can let you know me.
Speaker 3:And but it's more than that. It's creating a peer to peer ministry, not a top down ministry. So that's part of the trauma informed environmental characteristics, which is peer to peer and not hierarchical ministry. So just kind of laying that over and saying, well, here's where we are, where are those environments? And I think some people are gifted at seeing people and this is a kind of a spiritual gift test we need to make. It's not made yet. Where, who are the seers in our church? Who are the people who really see people and who have the time and who are willing to spend and ask a second question or a third one, and then who are the people that really help people feel secure? You know that. So I mean that's just a different kind of spiritual, you know, gift, trauma, gifting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's very, very necessary. Right now I'm just lamenting with you. I think that's one of the first things we're supposed to do in what the American church experience is, and you know, as a pastor, I try I get out first and try to connect, see people look them in the eye, shake the hand. Maybe there's a longer conversation if someone wants to linger, but generally I'm an obstacle to people moving on with their day.
Speaker 1:That's kind of how it that's kind of how it feels. I served a.
Speaker 2:I served a function for them, you know, hopefully, hopefully, they experienced the love of Christ and now we're we're moving into a different environment. This is why small groups are so huge for us, because, like I, this the Sunday morning experience does not. Maybe you can have a two hour extended time, but it does not make space for people to be seen, soothed and feel safe, and then that happens in different, in different environments. For us and yeah, any any word about like what American Christianity Sunday morning worship really really is is, it relates to trauma, informed care.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like the church. You know we've taught people to do what you're saying. You know, see us as obstacles to the rest of the day. That's just the way it's set up. Who has time? I mean, I know a church is in the valley here, who you know. It's like people are herded in and then they're herded out, you know, so they're taught. You know, we've trained people and so, though we try to get them in small groups.
Speaker 3:The way we do church is anti small group, because we're training people to be high by people, and yet we're asking them to come into this other setting that, if they did, it would take them a long time, maybe because there's a disconnect, and so what? That's the reason we do this would be totally out of the box. Okay, right, but what if you did church where you throughout a concept, kind of cooperative teaching, and you said, okay, hey, yep, just took questions, you know, on a concept that you were teaching, and then said, okay, everybody, just get around with four people, and here's, here's a question I want you to ask each other, and then they talk about their lives and the concept you're talking about. So, and you know, I did this in ministry once and my senior pastor said I don't think that's right that you do that because it was in a Part of the ministry as a large church and yeah. And he said you're gonna make people not want to come.
Speaker 3:And I said, well, I don't know, I just feel like that's the right thing to do, for people to open up and you know, when people have a stake in an Experience, they're gonna feel like they have ownership and it's a prodigal, you know it's taking ownership, and so we just don't allow that in church. Today I know one church that after the service they do have a talk back and they go into a room and, hey, who wants to talk about? You know what we talked about today? Yeah, but yeah, so it'd be radical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would, and it's almost like you got to create something that's different, because Most folks come because we've trained them Set to expect to be very passive in the whole experience.
Speaker 2:Yes rather than interactive with us. So, yeah, that that's. That's sparking some creative ideas for me and our team. We've we've tried that from time to time and Some people like it. Generally, people feel awkward because they're sitting around people that they don't, they haven't spent the time and trust with, and then the question May go into something that's deep that they don't feel safe in sharing. Just yeah, but I think it's a it's something worth worth exploring for for sure. So, really, let's get into healthy teams. How do you create this is kind of a in vogue word today vulnerability? How do you encourage leaders specifically to be, to be vulnerable and Even you're challenging me and, I think, many leaders right now, and that requires a sense of vulnerability. We may not be doing Mer, you know, and I could move down a shame sparrow. Why don't we do things?
Speaker 2:Oh, you're in a different way and I know that's not what you're encouraging it yeah at all, not even close, but but it is requiring vulnerability for me to say, hey, some things Jeff is saying Could be, could be helpful for me, and I'm not where I'm going to be, and that's, and that's okay, and we as a ministry are, we're growing together. How do you encourage that vulnerability, that humility, in leaders in churches, jeff?
Speaker 3:I think maybe teach and model a growth mindset, because you know we we need to see places of vulnerability as opportunities and that when we can talk about that and demonstrate that and he show examples from our own life how a vulnerability was really an opportunity for us to grow, to learn about ourselves and to help somebody else who had the same vulnerability. So we don't practice a lot around that, but I think we can help people learn to seek out the vulnerable A part, the vulnerable parts of their lives, and then through that relationship ladder we can build environments where they're. You know, feel free, but it's about a relational culture. You know, always, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:Do you have any tools? I'll give you one tool or resource that I've used over the years, specifically at retreats. Our team takes Quarterly, quarterly retreats and the first thing we do which has proved very, very helpful is the Emotional jug. I don't know if you've ever heard of the emotional jug, that for us to be fully present, we have there's kind of a whole milk metaphor. You got to skim the stuff, right, so what's?
Speaker 1:making you mad.
Speaker 2:Tell me more. Tell me more what's making you, what's making you sad, what's what's causing you to be worried or anxious right now. And then we close with what's making you, what's making you glad, and it's just to allow people to speak at the level of their own safety. And then I'll tell you, and then we pray for, then we pray for one another as a team, and the fruit of that, followed by hey, how are you seeing Jesus come alive in this brother, sister's life and ministry?
Speaker 1:And so just like in encouragement.
Speaker 2:It like as simple as it is. You see these, these staff members, you know they may. They may have been leading in the church for 30, 40 years, but every single time they hear words of encouragement and love from their, their teammates, like there's ample emotion. I mean tears is a very normal reaction for us, so that's one of the helpful handles to create vulnerability. Have you, have you shared any others that you've seen helpful and in church context Now?
Speaker 3:we're talking about people feeling seen right tools to help people feel seen. Yeah, no, not that I can. Just, I'm about building environments and then inviting people to share, and that's why I have the workbook. You know it, I share. In fact, I share my own story through it, in my own recovery from trauma and my journey, so that they can feel not alone and so that they can take some of that. They can take some of that and give them language to share. But that's why the ministry is what it is.
Speaker 2:It's different beautiful, so could you. How did you become Jeff Felman who had this passion for trauma, trauma care? If you're, if you're comfortable, would you share a little bit of your, your story, your testimony?
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, the church missed my family. You know, I was a president of the youth group and my mom directed choir. But you know, not too many years later, my, when I was 13, my dad committed suicide. When I was 19, my 17 year brother committed suicide. When I was 27, my other brother was murdered, and I didn't have the tools, I Mean, I was a Christian, I believe, but it took me until you know 23 to really move in emotionally, you know, into that, start moving in emotionally, into that commitment.
Speaker 3:And then, in seminary, when my brother was murdered, it was the, you know, intentional decision yes, I'm gonna go into ministry and said, ask why. I mean I did preach at his funeral, which I shouldn't have done, you know, which is why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? You know, but it's through my own personal. And then God showed me how I have a degree in health care administration and how, and then I was Called to the ministry. My uncle said, hey, the ministry needs people that have been through things to not just people grew up in Christian homes, and so that kind of gave me that fuel.
Speaker 3:But then, you know, not too long later, my, my wife, passed away and left me with five kids you know, a newborn two weeks after our child youngest child was born. So it's like I've had to adjust in ministry to my story and Realize these interruptions are interruptions of purpose, not meant to hurt me from God, but meant for God to help me to harvest, to help others, and so at times I couldn't be a pastor because I was going through too much. So then I ended up doing the child abuse work and the foster care work while I raised the kids. So now I'm Feeling led to give back out of my experience that there are a lot of people Maybe to different extents, everybody has their own story, but the whole thing is we need to help people feel, make friends I keep saying this make friends with that process of healing and things coming forward and make them useful for others.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Who entered into your, your story, if you don't mind To lead you to see, I'm sure there are kind guides, mentors, spiritual guides, who were there for you at just the right time. Anything to share there, jeff.
Speaker 3:Wow, I can tell you that I have been missed. Yeah, I don't want to get too personal with my experiences, but Pastors are, you know. It's kind of like we're supposed to be the strong ones. So, yeah, when I was in residential, you know, when I worked in in the mental health centers who started those, I had some people that were wonderful. One of the guys just said I'm not gonna prescribe for you, you just need to go into treatment, you know. So I went into treatment for depression and addiction at that time and so, yeah, there have been people, but there's been the other two like we don't know what to do with you, so you can't be here. Like, yeah, only only.
Speaker 2:Jesus Right, yeah, he's your friend, the he's the only one who makes sense of I mean you, just you walk through a list of some just horrendous Things that would double anybody over in depression and despair Of life. And so talk about how Jesus was born. So talk about how Jesus was your kind guide there, jeff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my life has been a life of lament, really, without the early morning hours of just praying and weeping and Not understanding the tears. It was like a pressure valve, pressure release, and I haven't always held, you know, done things. Well, you know, I became an alcoholic and I couldn't, even though as a Christian I couldn't stop. But when I got more information about trauma and how these drinking is a threat response, you know it's a way to protect and so, and learning how to deal with what happens before you drink, you know, then I was able. So that's why I'm such a believer that people need a bigger playing field and that churches we set the playing. You asked a question about vision. When we're setting vision, how does vulnerability Well, vulnerabilities are playing field. Any vision has to fit into our context, so we have to run it through that grid, through the cultural characteristics that we're gatekeepers of this culture, and so we envision within, you know, within those bounds. Yeah, yeah, just time with the Lord in the morning, yeah.
Speaker 2:Tell me what that's like.
Speaker 3:Well, at its best it's me not talking and me not reading and me not journaling. It's just me sitting and until I can say something, but the word has been. I've read Charles Stanley's study Bible for several years because he's like a father to me. His comments are so just. You know, I need, I didn't have a dad and then I had to raise five kids by myself, so it was really. I was always feeling overwhelmed and so, yeah, he's just been great. And there's, you know, in the word. You know when God shows you something and then all of a sudden it's just like it unlocks something. So that's a hard thing to explain, but it's about relationship, you know.
Speaker 2:I love this.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I I'm resonating with being a leader. That sometimes because I'm. Have you heard of the Enneagram, jeff? If you've done the Enneagram stuff right yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm a.
Speaker 2:I'm a classic three achiever and you know, get to if you really get like behind the curtain of my soul. It's, it's wondering does anybody truly know me and do I let myself be fully, fully known? Is there, is there a wall that keeps me from being being vulnerable or protective mechanism? And and I can flip the switch because I've been an actor and athletes, all these kind of platforms, and so my life is a it can feel like a series of interactions between start and stop, and even the podcast could be seen as a metaphor between a performance aspect, right, and and so do I. Do I have enough self awareness to say I need people? I'm working on this, by the way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I need people, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I need people who see me the good, the struggles, the highs and the lows, and and love me for who I am, and and bring Jesus to me. We need that desperately and I have those people, but I'm praying. I get more of those, more of those spiritual fathers and or mothers in my life. The older I get, the more I realize I need it. Any comments Do you resonate with that at all, jeff?
Speaker 3:I do, and I think that it's where we want to invite people. We're to live a communal life. You know, christianity is a communal life and so we can borrow from other people's stories and we can live in other people's stories and they can live in ours. So I think it is about that relational culture that invites people into that so that you can track each other. So we have a men's retreat and we go come on, we're warriors, let's go Come on, but nobody knows.
Speaker 3:Well, how do we walk? How do we walk with each other as a warrior, how do we? Well, it's about tracking our stories and it's about it's about what, what limited or ungodly thinking. You know that you're battling that week your weakest moment, your gaps I think you talked about, and it's because and some I think we'll find people have kind of a life theme and that once we know that we almost have a blueprint In fact in solar store we could we do a blueprint and so you can see kind of what your life's, your life theme is, and so that's to me that's like I know my friend Dave, I know what he struggles with, I know his. He's short, he's got a hot temp, you know. So I say, hey, you know, and it's getting to that level. That's how we walk and we borrow each other's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, what's your?
Speaker 2:blueprint. How do you articulate your blueprint, Jeff?
Speaker 3:Well, primary wounding is the loss and the negative messages around. Loss are shame and fear and anger, and the name I call myself without God is loser, because I lose everything, an addict, but with God, you know, through God's eyes I call myself a gap-stander. You know a voice for the unheard and then in God, the godly beliefs that I can replace the others with. You know the shame, the fear, turning the anger from a protective threat response anger into an energy to set healthy boundaries that define me and that also protect me. And understand that, because every emotion has a purpose, anger has a purpose and that is the energy to set boundaries that define us and protect us.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, Thank you for sharing that yeah so I have a tree and it goes around the tree, primary wounding, you know, right around the tree to the what we call ourselves, to what we're doing with our emotions, to the thoughts that we need to replace, and then the fruit. The fruit is, if it's a tree, of life or death, because the fruit is, you know, what we produce in our children and in our relationships, and yeah, yeah, that is so good.
Speaker 2:We're coming down the home stretch here. I have so many other questions. We'll have to do this again. Talk we kind of, and the questions I sent you kind of went in inverse order here. I'd love to hear just a little bit of how you developed your heart for abused children. Obviously now it makes more sense hearing more of your story. And then what would surprise or shock the average person about the topic of child abuse and and why the church should care about that topic?
Speaker 3:Okay, I think God woke me up to my childhood. You know, when I was a pastor in Tucson, the church of 1400, I was a senior associate and I think we have to be willing to go where God, where Jesus, is calling us and it's not always where we think it is. Because somebody walked into my office and said I've gotten your name from several people in Tucson. Would you leave the ministry and would you come and start this Christian? You know it was that Tucson general and it was Steve Arteburn new life treatment centers, and so as a program manager there, somebody walked in there and said, hey, we heard what you're doing here, would you move to Phoenix? And then we started this residential unit for adolescents and their families.
Speaker 3:So when my wife died I couldn't stay in the ministry because it was so hard with five kids. It was evenings and weekends. So then I ended up. You know somebody I knew that was an investigator and because of my background it just fit perfect and I had a Teflon kind of surface because of my own childhood. But it was crazy. I commuted at times three hours a day and came home to five kids and I don't really know how I did it. I know, alcohol helped dull the pain, but that had to go. So that's kind of how it happened. I was.
Speaker 3:My story woke me up, you know, and it became. It was like a beast inside me, but I found out I could become the rider and the beast that I could control with Jesus. Jesus could come in and give that all meaning. Statistics over 600,000 children abused every year. But the bigger statistic is the one in our pew, and that every person in our pew from the aces study. These are college educated people 17,000 surveyed regarding their childhood. And these people are in our church and, like I said, three out of five of them have had a significant childhood trauma and almost two out of five of them have had four more. And that that's amazing because that's affecting their lives today it's staggering yeah, jeff yeah and yeah we need to.
Speaker 2:I pray, if you're taking anything from the conversation today, that the church and hopefully leaders, model. This should be a place of vulnerability where we create safety and we respond to one another kindly, that that making friends with our past story is what every human is having to do. Right? I've said this before, jeff. I'd love to get your take on this that all of life is confession and absolution.
Speaker 2:Just one kind of framework for for life and in this regard, it's confessing that it's okay to not be okay. Confessing that I have been wounded and I wound others and that I'm a wounded healer now by the mercy and grace of Jesus, who gives me an entirely new identity in him, that my past traumas do not define me. The cross, the empty tomb of Christ, baptismal reality that defines who I am, and his words of love and care for me as a prodigal son or daughter, are what win the day. He celebrates me, he rejoices, smiles over me and invites me. This is one of my favorite images. Invites me to smile back and God who created me and and loves me so much.
Speaker 3:Any, any closing comments, though, for those of us that are trying, by the Spirit's power, to create those environments of vulnerability, any closing words, jeff yeah, just that you know we're doing the right thing, that people can't give to God what they don't possess to rightly possess our own lives, then we're, then we have it, we can confess it, then we're gonna receive from the Lord first, and then we have it to give to others, and the gift of our story and how God has worked in our lives is the best thing we can give someone amen amen, so good Jeff your gift to the body of Christ.
Speaker 2:If people want to connect with you and and soul restore, get your book. How can they do so?
Speaker 3:well, soul restores on Amazon. Just Jeff Feldman, soul restore and soul restore coach at gmailcom.
Speaker 2:Okay, amen, amen this is the American Reformation podcast. Sharing is caring like, subscribe, comment wherever it is. You take this in and and we promise to have wonderful conversations. Love to have you back in the future, jeff. So many yeah so much, so many other paths we could have gone down and we'll go down into the future.
Speaker 2:I appreciate how Jesus made you and for the, the role that the Lord worked in your life through, through the pain, to point you to him and to point others through the pain to Jesus as as well all, as wounded healers. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. We'll see you next week on American Reformation. Thanks, jeff yep, bye, bye.