Embark on a transformative exploration with Lyndsay Ermeling, former Miss California and arts educator, as she brings her vision for a reimagined American Christian Church to our latest podcast discussion. Lindsay's artistic insights and experiences as a parent weave through this episode, revealing how creativity and change can revitalize our spiritual journeys. Discover the power of 'metanoia' as we challenge the status quo, seeking to engage the next generation with a faith that's as dynamic and innovative as the world around them.
With Lyndsay 's expertise lighting the way, we examine the pivotal role of the arts in shaping one's identity, especially during the formative junior high years. This episode will reveal how the arts can not only reflect God's glory but also act as a catalyst for personal and communal transformation. We share stories of finding authenticity in our talents and expressions, all while navigating the delicate balance between seeking approval and remaining true to our identity in Christ. Expect to be inspired by the biblical foundations for worship through creativity and the pursuit of nurturing the gifts within us and our communities.
As we conclude our heartfelt conversation, we address the nuances of leadership and the lifelong pursuit of excellence over perfection. Reflecting on my own journey, I open up about the lessons learned from confronting control and perfectionism, and how these lessons translate into a service-oriented approach to life and worship. We leave you with an invitation to view the world from a 'balcony perspective,' aiming to inspire actions that glorify the Triune God and enrich our daily mission as followers of Christ. Join Lyndsay and myself in this encouraging narrative, as we unite in a chorus calling for change and the celebration of every individual's creative spirit.
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Embark on a transformative exploration with Lyndsay Ermeling, former Miss California and arts educator, as she brings her vision for a reimagined American Christian Church to our latest podcast discussion. Lindsay's artistic insights and experiences as a parent weave through this episode, revealing how creativity and change can revitalize our spiritual journeys. Discover the power of 'metanoia' as we challenge the status quo, seeking to engage the next generation with a faith that's as dynamic and innovative as the world around them.
With Lyndsay 's expertise lighting the way, we examine the pivotal role of the arts in shaping one's identity, especially during the formative junior high years. This episode will reveal how the arts can not only reflect God's glory but also act as a catalyst for personal and communal transformation. We share stories of finding authenticity in our talents and expressions, all while navigating the delicate balance between seeking approval and remaining true to our identity in Christ. Expect to be inspired by the biblical foundations for worship through creativity and the pursuit of nurturing the gifts within us and our communities.
As we conclude our heartfelt conversation, we address the nuances of leadership and the lifelong pursuit of excellence over perfection. Reflecting on my own journey, I open up about the lessons learned from confronting control and perfectionism, and how these lessons translate into a service-oriented approach to life and worship. We leave you with an invitation to view the world from a 'balcony perspective,' aiming to inspire actions that glorify the Triune God and enrich our daily mission as followers of Christ. Join Lyndsay and myself in this encouraging narrative, as we unite in a chorus calling for change and the celebration of every individual's creative spirit.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray, wherever you're taking in this conversation, that the fruit of the spirit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. Is on your heart and that you're leaning in, buckled up. Maybe you're driving, maybe you're getting your water in your morning, maybe you're getting your workout in moving the body. That's a beautiful thing. As you take in a Jesus-centered conversation with my partner in the gospel, lindsay Ermling, let me tell you a little bit about Lindsay.
Speaker 2:Lindsay, if that name sounds familiar, she has been married for 26 years to the head of the board of directors, I think now for Concordia University in Irvine, ryan Ermling. Ryan is also an entrepreneur. He's doing a lot to bless schools and churches across the country. Also a member at Christ's Greenfield, Lindsay. Lindsay was some things you need to know about Lindsay, 1996 Miss America winner and, like I've told Ryan many times, he married way up with you. Not just beauty external, but a beautiful heart that loves Jesus, loves blessing kids, loves blessing the next generation. So today we're going to talk about music, worship, the stage, caring for, dreaming big dreams with our youth and other Jesus-centered topics as we move in today. So, lindsay, how are you doing, man? Thanks for spending time with me.
Speaker 3:I'm doing great. Thanks, happy Monday, tim. And one correction, miss California 1996.
Speaker 2:Oh, not Miss USA.
Speaker 3:Last, I make Miss Kansas, who won that year, jealous. Well, good name to her title.
Speaker 2:You should have won, lindsay.
Speaker 2:You should have won. At least you won California. That's a big state, so awesome, awesome. We're not going to talk about that too much today, but maybe that is kind of a catalyst to your journey Before we get into kind of the art. So how that shapes our standard opening question how are you praying for, as you look at the broad landscape of the American Christian Church, especially with your history as an educator, especially in the arts, for 26 years, elementary Lutheran schools, elementary, even teaching for four years at faith Lutheran in Las Vegas? How are you praying for reformation in the American Christian Church, lindsay?
Speaker 3:Well, I think, like you said, I've probably come out all of my prayers for our church, both as a teacher and as a parent. We've been blessed with three daughters. We've got two who are in college, kind of been past maybe their formative stage of faith development, and then we have a fifth grader who's right about to walk into probably the most critical stage of that. So we definitely pray as parents. But as a teacher and as somebody who works in creative things, my job is always about doing things new, doing things differently. Every piece of music is new, every rehearsal is new, every group of students is new.
Speaker 3:New and change don't scare me, they don't intimidate me, it's just par for the course and what I do. And I think that's something our church is really afraid of, the church at large right now, and I think we're in a place where there's such an urgency to do things differently. You look at our culture, you look at the things that are costing our children, that are so different from even when I started teaching 25 years ago. There's just such a radical need to approach things, all with the love of Jesus and the truth of the gospel, but in new and innovative ways. It's not the same battle we're fighting anymore, and it's yeah. So I definitely I hope for that and just a prayer that we aren't afraid to do things differently than we ever have before.
Speaker 2:You know, have you been reading the same books that I'm reading? Lindsay, I don't think so. Well, the book that I recently got. I'm trying to read 50 books this year.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's right.
Speaker 2:I think I'm tracking four or so into 2024. But Meta Noia by Alan Hirsch Meta Noia is a word for repentance in the New Testament and he's making the argument. I'm going to have Alan on, hopefully, this podcast in the coming months. But he's making the argument that repentance in the Old Testament, but especially in the new, when John the Baptist comes and preaches, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near. It wasn't just sin management, it wasn't simply you're guilty, you're far from God, confess your sin and be absolved, though that is very, very important. It was not just a personal thing, it was a corporate paradigm shift.
Speaker 2:This is you've heard us maybe talk about repentance. As you're going this way and the quicker you turn about, the Holy Spirit has to turn you about and go a different direction. Going back, if you will, to your first love or or. Meta simply means to place your mind above, right, above the chaos, above the change, and then you can. You could look like a balcony view. Then you can look at what is going on in our home, in our churches, etc. And actually use that prefrontal cortex, that place of creativity, adventure, aw wonder, new ideas, and they don't scare you or cripple you, they actually inspire, inspire you.
Speaker 2:So I'm praying for Meta-noy right alongside you. I'm praying for the ability for leaders to get to the balcony, to go above where Christ is and have a radical, because he says Meta-noy, repentance is really a paradigm or a continual paradigm, paradigm shift Anything to. Am I speaking in to you? Because what we're balancing right now is the is the balance between chaos and order, and people love order. Our God is a God of order, but our God is also like the Holy Spirit. Is this divine disruptor? You know?
Speaker 2:of the status quo, so that our minds and hearts are moved away from self just care for self preservation and opened up wide for the other, wherever they happen to be, and the other who's carried along by a number of different worldviews or paradigms that are counter to the paradigm of love, which is centered in the person and work of Jesus. Anything more to add to that, though, lindsay?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so interesting. You would say all of that because our small group is diving into relations right now. So last night we were in the second chapter and I love Paul, I love his admission of his weaknesses, I love his bold sense of urgency. And then that second chapter where he's going up to Peter and essentially saying you know Peter who walked with Jesus, peter who lived with him, paul who never met him, but for you know the road to Damascus. And looking Peter in the eye and saying you know, the freedom of the gospel is humility, like the gospel demands humility, and we can't be so stuck in order that we are, you know, making a mockery of the cross. And what Jesus did. You know, the laws served a purpose and then Jesus kind of came in and disrupted it all for something better, you know, and that's scary.
Speaker 2:I love how. I love how Galatians, I think Paul says something like I challenged him to his face.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right to his face, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, right, not not around his, not behind his back or to other people, though he does write it in a letter that gets shared, right, you know? So there is this like he's creating this disruption amongst the Galatians, who have been bewitched to think that they can somehow fulfill the law through circumcision or anything external. Right that that marks us. No, you've been marked by Christ crucified, his blood has covered you, and now the new covenant has been ratified by, by baptism, the gift of faith freely given for all who believe, both Jew and Gentile, and he is. So. I love Galatians for the power disruptor that the apostle Paul, kind of, because the gospel is a stake here, and so he'll challenge not only Peter. But you know, lindsay, who's behind Peter in in the book of Galatians, james, brother of Jesus. Right, so you talk about powerful people in high places. He's challenging the, the, the root of the church in Jerusalem. At that time you talk about a call for repentance. So, so powerful. So I love that you guys are in Galatians. Our six AM study walk through that a couple months ago and it was just so powerful, so powerful, all right, cool.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about, I think, the arts. They're a disruptive force in in culture, to shape, to shape culture, because how many kids you you've done so much with the stage. How many kids really? I really want to do that. I think it's a small percentage of kids. They're like oh yeah, this is gonna be amazing to go on display, you know, to be challenged to do stuff that I don't want to do, but that's exactly what you draw out of out of students Both at the middle school level. I know you've done that at high school. So, before we get into kind of what's behind the scenes, how did you develop that love for the performing arts and and even leading worship, being being confident, and did that have kind of a foundation, maybe in your, your Miss America run, miss California?
Speaker 3:You know, I grew up in the Midwest, so obviously the performing arts were an indoor sport in the middle of very long winners. So for me it started with piano lessons. I think I was three and a half years old, I think that was one. My first piano recital was, and my parents kind of nurturing what then became, I think, a natural love. But it all began in the church. You know, singing in a church, choir playing recorder at school, you know Christmas programs, things like that. Until it was something I obviously had an ability for and kind of growing into all of these opportunities and doors started to open. I think what's so fascinating, though, is where it really Transformed my life is.
Speaker 3:I hit junior high and had a really rough go of it. I was a firstborn kid. I was one of my parents made you know all the mistakes on. I was very, very smart, like awkwardly smart. I was awkward. I was not the cool kid in class and I was socially pretty shy. The thing I shone out were the performing arts, and so was this place where I could kind of be my full confident self In the guy is maybe have a character on stage or behind a microphone. That was where I was my, my most true self For sure.
Speaker 2:So walking through I think all of that in junior high for me Really then paved the way, I think, for when I, you know, kind of a made commitment that I wanted it to be my life and my passion and Really actively pursue you know that for the future has Because I think we're, we're similar in some regards Been on, been on stages with microphones in front of my face for it seems like my whole all life Arts, or on some sort of a you know, football field or whatever that kind of thing in front in front of people. How is and I've had to wrestle with over the years my true you drop my true self right. So who is, who is my true self? And identity has been huge for me that no one else, because we have to admit when we're on the stage we're looking for the approval of men.
Speaker 2:I was reading absolutely in John's Gospel recently and Jesus wouldn't give himself to many knew what is it within the hearts of men, how men will turn? We can't find our identity in men, we must find our identity in Christ. So how?
Speaker 2:was that kind of journey, russell, been for you as one who's been on many, many stages.
Speaker 3:You know that's a tension that you live lifelong with as a performer and I'm a performer, I'm a firstborn, I'm a perfectionist and that's that's who I am. I'm a high achiever, I am a Goal driven, those kinds of things. The constant wrestling is my identity is not in what I do, it's in who I am because of how Jesus created me. That's a. That's a constant tension. I still struggle with it as an adult. It's a powerful thing to share with kids too, that you know the things that are in our heart, the struggles we have. They don't go away. You just learn with maturity and Christ to deal with them differently and to process them differently and to surround yourselves with folks that hold you accountable for those things in Jesus.
Speaker 2:Yeah do you? Um, because I have. I have some of those people who are around me who will, who will say, hey, tim, is everything okay, like if I've got too much of the preacher voice, or like the kind of the near that will lovingly say, hey, how's your heart? You know, yeah, and it's kind of weird for dudes to do that actually ladies are better at doing doing that but you know, are there, are there one or two with some family members? Who do you just like? Oh, I, I can really really open up to some of those struggles and and I love your transparency and even sharing some of those struggles Appropriately with kids. I think that's super, super powerful. But what does that look like to process that with others?
Speaker 3:You know my husband obviously is. You know, god put him in my life for a reason. He's. He's definitely my best, my best curb. We were even talking about that in our small group because I think that's part of the first part of relations. Right is calls holding a church accountable, holding Peter accountable in love and, and you know, being that mirror to him. Yeah, I have some dear friends and some teammates I've had over the years in the creative space that also understand those struggles very intimately. It's hard to share that with somebody who maybe hasn't walked that walk and really understands the heart of a performer and you know the pros and the cons and all those kinds of things. Now I'm really grateful for people that I can just unload, to lay my heart out there and then they Provide that perspective and wisdom and grace, all those things.
Speaker 2:So good, I love it. Let's talk, let's get above In the conversation a little bit to to God, who looks upon us and smiles, I think, when his kids are engaged and using, using their gifts in beautiful ways. So how, in your mind and wrestle theologically with us, does God use music in the arts to glorify himself?
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, absolutely. One of my favorite things to cling to is that you know we're made in the image of the ultimate creator. You look at how much joy God shows us in creation, like right from the get-go in scripture we're made in His image. I love the phrase that, because we're made in His image, it's in our DNA right To be creative and to do creative things. And then I think we see all over the Bible the way God uses the arts in worship and glorifying Him. I mean you look at songs, which are essentially songs, you know, written in celebration or pouring up our hearts out to Him.
Speaker 3:I think the arts have a unique way of connecting us to our faith and to the God who made us and loved us and saved us. I think they're a unique way to build community. I think they're a unique way to tap into maybe all the ways that God made us as a human being, not just those creative ways, but our friendship and empathy and reasoning and language. I mean there's the benefits of the arts just to transcend far beyond the performance itself, you know, or the rehearsal, oh yeah, Well, yeah, they certainly do.
Speaker 2:And there are parts of me. Did I tell you that when I was a pastor, right out of seminary I went to Bethlehem Lutheran and Pastor David Languish shout out to Pastor Languish, been there, gosh, 30 some years that he would write adult musicals. Oh, no, me, Original adult musicals, Lindsay. And I got there and one of the first experiences I had was like within a month like this is insane Was trying out for a part in a church adult musical and having all cause. I was 26 at the time, I was like 16 years ago having all of those like butterfly emotions that I hadn't like experienced, and at that time it was only like eight years prior in high school.
Speaker 2:But what happens, like behind the stage, the kind of giddy butterfly kind of stuff, and then what happens is you kind of go out on the stage, the unique relationships, Like I want my kids and all of them have been, but I'd love for them, even into high school if possible somehow stay connected to the arts, to musicals or drama or some regard. And it's unfortunate, I think a lot of times in high school you have to kind of make the choice to either do the arts or athletics. I think that is a detriment. I know my son and other, but it's just time won't allow it oftentimes. But how do you help get us behind the curtain, if you will, to what goes on in the minds and hearts of junior hires and high schoolers as they get ready for the big production? Can you get us behind the curtain there a little bit, Lindsey.
Speaker 3:You know, I love the sense that with the production, you're always working towards something that you can't create on your own right. There's that sense of there's a bigger purpose, there's something that it actually takes everybody lots of behind the scene. Every part is important, every person is important, most kinds of things. It's such a process, a give and take, and rehearsal. It's such a. I mean, there's so many elements. I could go into it.
Speaker 3:And as you talk about the development of confidence in kids and watching the journey from start to finish, such a celebration of the little moments, right, acknowledging the gifts and gaps of every kid that walks in your door and teaching them to understand and celebrate the gifts and gaps of themselves and then others, as you're working towards like a production goal, teaching them that it's okay to fail, like the times, the number of times you will try something in a rehearsal and it's just bad, right, and learning to laugh at yourself and say it out loud that just stunk. And then moving forward and working together to fix or to create something better and different, and then how all of that comes together. You know, the night of a show and you're gathered in praying and praying and you look back and like look at the process and the progress and the steps along the way that it took to get here. Yeah, that's such a big question, uh-huh.
Speaker 2:No, it's great. Well, let's go into giving feedback. I know you give it sensitively, but you also give it in a straightforward manner so they know how to make corrections. Moving forward, or a risk that they took, or both vocalists, or risks that you took vocally that didn't work out right and you're like I better understand my limits and maybe I don't try that because it could be distraction or whatever it is Like. What are some tips in giving appropriate feedback, especially to young people, because I'm asking this question as a dad right now, to be quite honest.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's different as a teacher than as a dad, to give your kids.
Speaker 2:We're all learning, so talk about giving feedback, lynn.
Speaker 3:You know, I think so much and a lot of this you learn, obviously, in years and years of teaching. I can't say I knew this right out of the gates as a first year teacher. So much of feedback, as in anything in ministry, is just about the relationship you have with the person in front of you. I think Jesus modeled that right In scripture. You cannot have authentic conversation until you're in relationship with somebody. There's no reason they would give your words credence at all. Why should they listen to you or respect you or believe you or trust you, if you don't care more about them? Then the particular thing that you're working on. So I think that's huge.
Speaker 3:I know, coming back to teach at Christ Greenfield last year, my biggest goal was just to get to know kids first. What makes them tick, what's their family, what's their you know, what do they love? Those kinds of things, because feedback does have to be an honest conversation and I think our culture right now is all about just wanting to say what people want to hear. I genuinely don't think our kids want that. I don't. I think they want to know truth. I think their hearts crave having authentic conversations about what they're good at, where their opportunities for growth are.
Speaker 3:I think us as adults, sharing where our areas of growth are is really important, that we don't, you know, act like we know it all or have it all together, or that we share with them the struggles we have. When they were their age, yeah, every conversation is a little different. I'll be honest, I think it's 10 times easier to talk into the kids than it is to their parents. So you know, when you share with a kid's parent maybe, where their gap is or why they didn't get a part or why they weren't chosen for that solo. I think kids take those things much more in stride than we do as protective. You know parents looking out for our kids and things. Well, let's talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2:A helicopter parenting and you could use, or more parenting, you know where. You just get rid of all of the pain, all of the struggle for your kid. That's your ultimate, ultimate goal. I don't think that's producing the mature next generation of humans that we need in our culture, and one of my goals is that the church should be like world-class at, yes, raising up the next generation, but having difficult, difficult, difficult conversations that shape character, that's centered in confession and absolution, et cetera. But if we're trying to, you know, get our kids above all the problems, we're really stealing amazing opportunities for growth for them. So how do you have that? Have that conversation? You mentioned it's difficult with parents. Are there any tips for having a conversation? What do you say to a parent when you can just tell they're trying to get rid of the pain and tell they're trying to get rid of, get rid of all struggle for their kids? I know you've walked through that a lot.
Speaker 3:A lot. I mean prayer, right, first, always, and certainly I have not always done it perfectly. There's definitely just a huge humility you have to walk into a conversation like that with and I have to. You have to be so empathetic, right, I've been in that position as a parent as well. You really have to jump into somebody else's heart and hear their heart and feel their heart and after that it's just honestly letting the Holy Spirit guide that conversation.
Speaker 3:I wish there was some great tip or trick, but everyone is so different, right, and again, I think, the further we go in years and in our culture, everybody's supposed to get a gold star, everybody's supposed to get a trophy, and it's just not the way of Jesus.
Speaker 3:When you look at the body of Christ, you know if the eye were to stay to the hand. You know all of that as you look at the New Testament. So I think the biggest thing to combat that in the classroom is really celebrating the gifts that our kids have been given, out loud, in front of their friends, so that they can celebrate them and then, prayerfully, you know, sharing with them that your joy in somebody else's gift does not diminish any gift that God has given you right. Jesus doesn't say we can't be sad if we didn't get an opportunity. He says he weeps with who weeps and he rejoices with who rejoices. He never says we have the right to rob somebody else, maybe of their gift or their joy or their celebration of an accomplishment. So working through that for sure with the grandparents.
Speaker 2:You say it's a way of Jesus. It absolutely is. There is a compounding effect of encouragement, of identifying the gifts in another human and inviting others to identify the gifts in that human. All boats rise. It's the lie of the enemy that says no, don't give that, because there's a well that's going to run dry of goodness and you need to suck. This is what the evil one says. You need to take all the credit, you need to take all the responsibility.
Speaker 2:The older I get, lindsay, the more joy I find in elevating the gifts of others than even being on the stage, and I love that. For you too. I mean, you're rarely in front of people, you're buying the scenes, you've been a performer, you've done all of those things and you just want to invite others to experience the same now, especially the next generation. It is, yeah, the lie of the enemy, the scarcity mindset more, more, more, me, me, me, and you get to say you're good at this and they're good at this, and we all kind of grow up into Jesus. It seems so elementary, but it simply doesn't happen, that culture.
Speaker 2:One other comment. I mean I've led staff retreats, lindsay, for years and years, and every quarterly staff retreat starts out with some element of personal encouragement Right. And it's amazing to see how the 26 year old and the 66 year old light up the exact same way when they hear words of encouragement. You know their chest kind of comes out and it's the right. They just have a positive sense of self and then they can grow and contribute to the positive sense of self for others. It's just a beautiful reciprocity that occurs. It's a gift of the Holy Spirit but our culture does not fan that into flame. I think the Christian church should Any thoughts to that culture of encouragement, lindsay.
Speaker 3:No, I 100% agree, and I think, especially as you look at specifically our youth nowadays, that anxiety levels rising, the self doubt, the comparison fostered obviously by the onslaught of social media and things. The words of life and love that we pour into this next generation are huge, and I'm a word of affirmation, love language, right. So words, words are what resonate with me and the words that our kids will remember, the words that will make or break a day or that they're going to take into later, more important situations in their life. I just the opportunities are so precious and we just have to seize them when we can.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. So what are, as we talk about, the arts and young people, what are your hopes and dreams, say you're not a grandma yet. God willing you will be. But as you, as you look, a generation from now, at the young people who you've been able to shape, that are going to rise up into areas of influence in the church and in the world, what are some of the characteristics, the qualities that you pray, they remember from the arts, that they take into their everyday life as a Jesus follower?
Speaker 3:You know, I think, seeing that the beauty of the world as seen through the arts, right. We get to do so many things in the arts that are just beautiful. They add beauty to the world. We get to dive into somebody's beautiful poetry or a beautiful composition or create something bigger than ourself that is beautiful and blesses the heart of another. I hope they always remember that. I hope they take great confidence.
Speaker 3:I really, at the end of the day, most of the kids I have taught I mean I've had the couple that have gone to Broadway, the couple that have won Grammys, you know those kinds of things very few are going to be professional artists, very few are going to get famous in the arts. But that confidence that you get by being in the arts, you know that kid can walk into a job interview someday If they've walked on the stage, if they can put themselves out in front of there, in front of their peers, they can do that, you know, with a future employer. They can look a coach in the eye and have a tough conversation. They can talk to an adult in the courtyard on Sunday morning. That the communication piece of it.
Speaker 3:I also think the focus right. Arts take discipline and it is, like you said before, so much behind the scene that goes into that one flash in the pan moment on stage that everybody applauds for. But that focus is something that's rapidly kind of draining from society right now too right, we have such instant gratification needs, we're so easily distracted. The arts focus like they focus us and they tell us to pause and absorb something for a little bit or appreciate something, and so I hope them, as parents and grandparents, I hope they take all those things in their heart and apply them to the other areas of life that are really important, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, confidence, communication, the ability to focus on a goal on a team so huge. I'm gonna double down on communication. That is the number one thing I've told my kids, I've told other kids. That's the number one thing that will distinguish you from a competitor someone else is how well you can communicate in written form. I think this is a dying art.
Speaker 2:Your husband and I have had many conversations about the written word clarity, focus, being concise, with your words being super, super clear about what you want, what you don't want, rather than kind of beating around the bush to have the appropriate level of frankness with someone to express what you need. That's gonna be the number one differentiator, no matter what marketplace they go into. And what you're teaching them is EQ, trump's IQ, every single day. But EQ and self-awareness must be shaped over time.
Speaker 2:Trying and failing and I remember this is one of my favorite kind of analogies you get up to that line of like I don't wanna be mean, I don't wanna be too hostile, but I also wanna be clear and so understanding. This is a huge leadership principle. How can I communicate what is true, what I need from the other person in a way that they can receive it and not become defensive and in a way that they don't doubt what the expectations are for them and our relationship moving forward. Like that is a huge, huge quality. Eq over IQ. So anything more to say about what the arts and just what young people need in this day and age in terms of clarity of communication?
Speaker 3:You know it's interesting that you would use the term kind of self-awareness. So I've had the privilege and honor of singing for some of the top conductors in that country. Just awesome opportunities God has opened up for me. And one of them I sang with a professional choir called the Phoenix Choral under the direction of Charles Broughy who's no longer with them, he's with the Kansas City Choral and that time we won a few Grammys, recorded some albums and really mountaintop experiences.
Speaker 3:But he would always and of course this was very, very high level chorals singing Just kind of the best of the best, expectations really high. He would always use the term all receptors out and he'd put his hands out like the antenna of an insect right or the whiskers of a dog or a cat that we just had to be so super heightened in our awareness of what was around us, of the sound that we were hearing, what was being offered by other people, that the only way that we could be united in our sound as a choir and make that perfect, beautiful, blended, pure tone, whatever it was, was if we were doing more of this, the listening piece, then the actual production of our own personal instrument, and I will never forget that because it applies to everything that awareness, the receptors out, listening, taking in, before you offer like your own.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's huge. What was that experience like? Go a little bit more. How did he lead? I mean a Grammy award winning director, a choir director? What would differentiate him from other kind of just? And all directors are great, beautiful people, but like this guy is at top of the top, get us behind the curtain in terms of how he led.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, it was terrifying. Sometimes, I'm not gonna lie, it was very intimidating to be in the company of that kind of brilliance. Because he is an American choral genius, I treasure those five seasons and I probably didn't appreciate them even in the moment for what they were, and I can look back on now. Things were very organic. There was a huge trust level amongst, if you want to call it, our choral team. There were only 24 of us and the expectation was you didn't come to rehearsal to like learn your notes. I mean, rehearsal is not for learning your own music. You came ready to go and then the music making started and it was exciting.
Speaker 3:It was like walking a vocal tightrope a lot of the time. I don't know how better to describe it. Such high expectations, but again, such great trust, and he was a beautiful vocalist himself. So he definitely had been in our shoes and understood what he was demanding of us, asking of us, the standard he was setting, but just incredible collaboration. I think that's what it really was. More, it wasn't a hierarchy, it wasn't like he was the director and we were below him. It was very much a collaborative, creative experience.
Speaker 2:I've been. That's so good High trust, high accountability is right here.
Speaker 2:There the balance between the two. I've been wrestling with hierarchy recently and I love collaboration, obviously, cooperation, and yet there is hierarchy in human structures. People need leaders and I think one of the criticisms that could be made about me this is self-awareness time for me. I've been talking about kind of taking the posture of Jesus for a long period of time. I've referenced, I think, in Matthew 24, 25, as Jesus is talking about let no one call you rabbi, for you have one rabbi, your father, in heaven, and yet at the same time Jesus is referred to as the son of God who takes away this sin in the world.
Speaker 2:Like the top of the top, so the upside down kingdom of God, like there is a hierarchy, but you could almost say now, as a follower of Jesus, there's a lowarchy. Just made that word. But I mean you're taking the low place, but people still need to know. Hey, he or she is directing, calling the play, setting the direction, setting the tone, starting the song. There still has to be this kind of point person, but it gets sideways when that point person doesn't consciously lower themselves. And that must be done, or else power plays will continue to take place, petty power plays, and the song will not be as beautiful, as organic as it could be, and I'm using song as a metaphor right.
Speaker 2:Anything more to add there, Lindsay?
Speaker 3:So much I see it in my rehearsals right, and if I think about a rehearsal right, there has to be somebody in charge, there has to be management, there has to be a plan, a structure, or else nothing positive will happen and it'll be organized chaos. And yet some of the most beautiful moments I see, especially in the maybe the last 10 years of my teaching, are when my idea, my plan, goes totally out the window because a student has like a better idea and we run with that right, something I wasn't expecting, something that would have been out of my control, totally. The letting go and letting somebody else have an idea that speaks in a better way than mine does. I don't know.
Speaker 3:I think you know you talked earlier about what my prayers are for the church right now and you see it obviously on the micro level in rehearsals. In any community we're in, we see a micro level of the church but the power play piece. When I think about how much energy is wasted right now on things that don't matter for heaven, that things that have no kingdom significance, no effect on eternity, if Jesus were to come and demand my soul today, right, that's a constant perspective that I pray for, even macro at our church, especially as it develops into what my daughters will grow into and raise their children in Things like that. Just so much wasted energy. Sometimes in the hierarchy, the power struggles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, there are. We need Medinoya, we need paradigm shifts, and that shift needs to start in our own heart, especially as leaders. Are we in it for the glory of men, for self glorification, or for the glory of God? And I think then the tone with which we lead becomes much more cooperative collaborative rather than self-focused, and those petty power plays get put behind us, are offered to the cross of Jesus. What would, as people look at performers and I'm right there with you or any of Graham Threes, both of us performer achiever what are some things that you would love for people to know that they may not know about you? That would just help them get behind the curtain of your heart.
Speaker 3:Well gosh, being a perfectionist, you're your own worst critic. It gives me great insight into kids that are perfectionists, or firstborn, knowing the struggles I have in my own heart with that. You're constantly critiquing and, of course, as a performer who is also perfectionists, the world you live in, right You're. You're constantly evaluating, critiquing, changing, fixing, looking at yourself it's. It's a huge struggle for sure. The internal battles of your mind, the self-doubt, the need for approval or affirmation, right, that you wrestle with Rather than finding peace in something that you've offered. I mean it's such a fine balance because I would never want to give up my standards for excellence, my pursuit of excellence and I think excellence is A Jesus way. I mean my, my savior offered his very best right, his life on the cross. For me, I think, always our goal as Christians is to offer our best. We're going to fail tremendously. We're human sinners. We're never going to have it this side of heaven, but I think Jesus would always ask that we're offering our best With the grace that he gives only fail.
Speaker 3:The perfectionist piece right is very self-focused, and it is. It's a lifting up of self, as I want to be perfect. So I have it just right and that's there, there are two sides of the same point, but they're not, you know, the same thing at all. So I think for me that's the biggest struggle Setting that boundary between and even, as I encourage in, kids, not crippling them with the pursuit of perfectionism, but giving them an internal drive towards shooting for their best and setting big goals. And I think I Apply that to worship even to. You know, it's the same thing I think a lot of people In the church complain about. With worship, there's a difference between wanting perfect worship and wanting excellent Worship. There to very, very different things, yeah, definitely, just say one more thing about how.
Speaker 2:How do you differentiate those two things, lindsay?
Speaker 3:I think it really is the perspective of the heart. For me, like, perfectionism is all about me, right, and it is about self-glory or getting noticed or being applauded, or that. That and it's crippling. Perfectionism is not freeing, it, doesn't, you know, open up the hands, and things like that. Perfectionism is very much a sign of control, you know, and that's, I know, it's something I struggle with In my personality type, my family role type, as the oldest of you know, my family, all those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:Excellence, I think, is a genuine desire in our hearts to, because we've been given so much, and an outpouring of gratitude and service, offer our very best to the Savior, who gave his very best for us. But it's a hands-open thing. It's like this is none of this is mine, but I'm going to give you my best in service of your church. And I think, because of that too, I'm going to like, if I apply it to worship, I'm going to come prepared to worship because I mean, if that's something that I have control over, I, you know there's so much I can't, but I that, that's a way I can prayerfully offer my best. Who knows what will happen with it? And it could, everything could go wrong and but not because I prayerfully didn't want to give my best.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's so good. What I hear, what I hear you saying, is perfectionism is me and excellence is we. Yes, and we collectively, as the church, using our unique gifts or unique voice or unique perspective, playing a song that delights the ear of God when his kids use their gifts, and and and then Going on this journey, which is we talk a lot in the ULC, this build measure, learn mindset, lean, startup model. Our goal isn't to win. This is the infinite game, but it's it's just to stay in the game. You know. It's to continue to Sing the song, using the voice that Jesus has given to me, and delight in the song that other people are singing to glorify the one One, true, god. Last question this has been so much fun. What do you love about Jesus? And, given your personality, I'd be curious about this what Jesus stories really speak to you? I?
Speaker 3:Think for me. I love that his mercies are new every day. I'm an early riser, I think you know, um, and I Love sitting with my coffee and watching the sunrise because, no matter how I went to bed the night before, no matter how much I was just so glad the day was done for, however it finished, with whatever things I did that I wasn't proud of, or Interactions, whatever, it is Just watching that sun come up literally every morning, and not just as an SUN, but s-o-n right, the reminder that every day is new in him. I think that's why I love Paul so much.
Speaker 3:Paul had such big vision. He was a bold dreamer, right, and he was bold in his work for the gospel and for the kingdom and yet so aware of his weaknesses and how Fallible he was. I mean, I love second Corinthians. You know my grace is sufficient for you because my strength is made perfect in weakness. I think that's it's not so much one story in the Bible. Yeah, the letters of Paul just resonate with me for that, his humility and his weakness and his reminder of the things that can be done through weak people, imperfect people, for the gospel. I love that, lindsey.
Speaker 2:Lindsey, this has been awesome. I want you to know that You're changing lives. You've changed my kids lives, all three of them. Countless other lives, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of students lives as you've invited them To use the gifts that God has given them to find their voice, to embrace the challenge, the courage to do it with humility and and confidence. That that balance of humility and confidence In community, that's what the arts are for you and and I know you're you're a worshiper of the Creator and Just having you back in the Christ Greenfield family ministries is such a gift. You're.
Speaker 2:You're amazing, especially as we start to dream new dreams into another season of life and growth, for our school To have you shaping, because one of the biggest things for us as as a ministry, as we look at the competitors or those that are around us here in the East Valley of Phoenix, is the arts.
Speaker 2:Like we need to tell the story of the transformation that's taking place in our choirs, in our productions. They're people. Come if you. We have a theater that only seats about 130, 140 people and I wish it sat, you know, a thousand, two thousand people, because these middle school productions, lindsey, that's a. That's a problem that we're gonna have to figure out because more and more people need to need to see the work that these young students because it is a it's a high-level high school to college type experience production that you see, you know, the 12, 13, 14 year olds putting on for God's all, for the glory of Jesus. So you, we've got a guys and dolls it's coming out right now a wonderful old school Musical that's gonna be so, so good and thank you for. But my die, forget the name of my daughter's character.
Speaker 3:Adelaide, he's the lead, oh she's one.
Speaker 2:She's one of the leads, I think, but yeah, that's a funny little song. So, anyway, thank you for being you and changing lives. If people want to connect with you, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:You know email. I think it's available on our church and school website. So just l Irmling at cgl schoolorg. So good, so good.
Speaker 2:This is the American Reformation podcast sharing is caring, like, subscribe, comment and like wherever it is you take in podcast and we'll continue to have discipleship, mission-minded conversations that elevate your thinking, to go on that meta noia journey to say, hey, I'm getting. I'm getting above where crisis, I'm setting my mind above where crisis so I can, from the balcony, look at all the unique people that God has placed around me to fan into flame their unique gifts as we glorify the Triumph God, father, son and Holy Spirit. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Thanks. So much, lindsay, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you.