Embark on an intellectual pilgrimage with the esteemed Reverend Dr. Andrew Jackson as we dissect the delicate interplay of the Holy Spirit and profound scriptural truths that are steering today's church reformation. Our exchange delves into the historical ebbs and flows of spiritual revivals, offering listeners a unique lens through which to view the transformative effects of diverse Christian traditions on collective growth and personal discipleship. By threading the needle between ecclesiastical history and modern application, this episode promises to enrich your understanding of faith's evolving landscape.
Navigating the mysterious dance of spirit and truth within the church, we surface the potent metaphors that describe our interaction with the divine, challenging established notions of worship and leadership. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod's journey from rigid bylaws to a culture of trust serves as a powerful case study, reflecting the broader shifts in generational worship styles and the enduring impact of denominational legacies. With insights from Reverend Jackson, we grapple with the balance needed for both personal and corporate spiritual renewal, rooting our discussion in the practical realities faced by congregations today.
As we traverse the historic routes of the early Christian church's eastward expansion, the episode casts new light on the pivotal role of cities such as Antioch and Edessa in shaping the spread of Christianity into Asia. We celebrate the Eastern Orthodox Church's legacy, its contribution to ecumenical councils, and the implications for unity within the global Christian diaspora. Listeners are invited to join us on a voyage through time, where the ancient paths of the faith provide a compass for the future of church reformation and unity.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
Embark on an intellectual pilgrimage with the esteemed Reverend Dr. Andrew Jackson as we dissect the delicate interplay of the Holy Spirit and profound scriptural truths that are steering today's church reformation. Our exchange delves into the historical ebbs and flows of spiritual revivals, offering listeners a unique lens through which to view the transformative effects of diverse Christian traditions on collective growth and personal discipleship. By threading the needle between ecclesiastical history and modern application, this episode promises to enrich your understanding of faith's evolving landscape.
Navigating the mysterious dance of spirit and truth within the church, we surface the potent metaphors that describe our interaction with the divine, challenging established notions of worship and leadership. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod's journey from rigid bylaws to a culture of trust serves as a powerful case study, reflecting the broader shifts in generational worship styles and the enduring impact of denominational legacies. With insights from Reverend Jackson, we grapple with the balance needed for both personal and corporate spiritual renewal, rooting our discussion in the practical realities faced by congregations today.
As we traverse the historic routes of the early Christian church's eastward expansion, the episode casts new light on the pivotal role of cities such as Antioch and Edessa in shaping the spread of Christianity into Asia. We celebrate the Eastern Orthodox Church's legacy, its contribution to ecumenical councils, and the implications for unity within the global Christian diaspora. Listeners are invited to join us on a voyage through time, where the ancient paths of the faith provide a compass for the future of church reformation and unity.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray, wherever you're taking this in, the joy of the Lord is your strength and that you're leaning in. Leaders are learners, leaders are readers, and I pray that you're leaning into a wonderful conversation today with Reverend Dr Andrew Jackson. Now let me tell you it's not a guy that has been raised from the dead. No, no, no. Maybe I don't know about Andy Jackson. Maybe he'll be raised from the dead sometime in the future, but this Andrew Jackson is very, very much alive and well and his story is going to blow your mind. A pastor for 22 years, 12 years at Word of Grace, as some listeners may be familiar with Gary Kinnaman.
Speaker 2:Reverend Dr Gary Kinnaman has been a guest on this podcast before. I worked for 12 years with him. He had his doctorate. Andy got his doctorate from Gordon Conwell, right in church renewal movements and we're going to be orienting around that international church renewal movements. He's been a professor at Regent U, phoenix Seminary, mesa Community College. He's taught world religion classes.
Speaker 2:He started in 1990 the International Turkey Network, and the country of Turkey is what we're talking about here. Initially I read about this in Thanksgiving time. Andy and I was like turkeys the turkeys, no, no, no, the nation of Turkey, where the early church kind of oriented, and he is a prolific writer. He was just telling me about seasons of kind of monastic writing where he just got away, specifically in Istanbul, where his headquarters are, and he's led many hundreds of Middle East biblical tours. He is a scholar on the Apostle Paul, the early church, and this is going to be a lot of, a lot of fun today.
Speaker 2:So opening question there, andy, as you look, you've seen the church brother international and you're right now aware of many movements of the Holy Spirit where the church is just exploding global, south east. But here in the West a lot of times we're lamenting kind of the decline and we kind of secularism and oh, and we can lead us to a lot of maybe fear and anger at what we're lamenting kind of the decline and we kind of secularism and oh, and we can lead us to a lot of maybe fear and anger at what we're losing. My prayer in this podcast too is that we pray for the spirit of joy and love and the Holy Spirit is still at work in our country in beautiful ways. So how are you praying for reformation in the American Christian Church there, andy. Thanks so much for hanging with us today, brother.
Speaker 3:Sure, well, I, my doctor, was in the history of church renewal movements. So basically the focus in that is we often think of history as very dry facts. You know when you start looking at the history of the church but how the church adapts itself structurally, functionally, in the new cultures that emerge as the church has gone through history. So you know there's many, and then what you do is study the factors. What are the issues, what's the patterns that we see throughout church history that remain the same in the area of church renewal? That's the important element. So you're drawing not just from your tradition, for example, you're Lutheran, so it's not just a matter of drawing from the Protestant Reformation. If you just keep yourself to one tradition, you really miss the fact that there are many factors that God has used in different segments of the church in history and the issue is to draw those in to today. How do you apply these core issues Too often to today? How do you apply these core issues Too often? We shotgun Too often, we try all kinds of things when in reality, if we really are more aware of the dynamics, the spiritual dynamics of church renewal that we see through every church renewal movement practically renewal movement, practically, or in every church renewal movement, there's one or two things that they bring in that really adds to the church.
Speaker 3:You know, my view is, when you look at the major streams and that's how I would evaluate history, the different streams of the Christian movement, the two factors that I would say at the center. When Jesus said you are to worship me in spirit and truth, and in that passage I believe it's talking about the Holy Spirit and biblical truth. So too often if you look at the flow of the church removal movement, we've split between a lot of churches have gone down and been focused on the Holy Spirit, the charismatic movement, the Pentecostal movement, and the danger there, without the focus of truth, is just existentialism. So that's a danger there. The other side, the whole stream is truth. The other side, the whole stream is truth and that comes a lot out of the Protestant Reformation pulpit centered expository teaching, many of the things that we say, but they they minor on the Holy Spirit. They will recognize the Holy Spirit, but really bringing in the Holy Spirit in a dynamic way into people's lives, that's missing and that leads to dead orthodoxy in my view. So when you ever look at discipleship of an individual. It's really just bringing those two elements together in a healthy way that we are living in spirit and truth. That to me, when you look at all church renewal movements, that's at the core center.
Speaker 3:Now, how you do that often you know, obviously we need to look at the biblical patterns, okay, but each, really every tradition, church tradition, we I would call them movements, you know, have applied that maybe differently and a lot of it is cultural in different, you know, periods of history, so, and also whether it was started in the East. Of course Christianity started in the East, in Asia Minor, where Turkey is. So that's why my focus has always been in my writing on up to the fall of Constantinople in 1453, which became Istanbul. That has been my major focus and we can talk about more about that. But I think those two components, and then I would say, once you bring and most pastors can't do that Once you bring and most pastors can't do that, if pastors would bring an integration of the Holy Spirit and biblical truth together, then what it always leads to is mission.
Speaker 3:It always, always leads to mission. So it brings discipleship, wholeness to people. To me that's how you know a healthy Christian have they integrated spirit and truth, and then that also to me, is the healthy dynamic of a local church, if those two components are there. So that's how I would approach. I look at spiritual renewal more in the sense of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit's the only one that can raise the dead Right. I mean so when a church is in major decline, if you can't simply do it by expository preaching, you're never going to raise it up. But the Holy Spirit is the one that brings life. Biblical truth brings the foundations of where we're anchored in truth and of course my view is both of those elements are again, not only have they split. So now people look at different streams. Those are basically the two streams in my view you can look at all the modern church today and those are the two streams.
Speaker 3:The dangers again are existentialism and dead orthodoxy. So to bring those together, it doesn't matter what denomination that you're in, it doesn't matter anything like that. It has to do with those two dynamics. You can bring it into your church structure. Reformation there is a biblical Reformation concept from the Protestant Reformation, but that's true. It's really just also how you're structuring the church and you learn that through history too, how the church adjusted structurally to implementing functionally spirit and truth. And of course, from the Protestant Reformation, the whole pulpit-centered model, because that's what they had to bring back was truth, right, so it was focused in on truth. So most Reformed churches today are very much focused in on that. Cessationist churches there you deal with the problem of the Holy Spirit. I mean, we can talk, you know they can talk generally about the Holy Spirit, but to me there is a tendency to lean one way or another because of those elements. So that's how I would explain it.
Speaker 2:Andy, there's a reason why we're friends and we're going to get closer over time here, because I couldn't agree with you. Well, I'd be disagreeing with Jesus if I disagreed with you. Then the woman at the well story shout out to John for so formative there, those who worship will worship in spirit and truth. And I've been wrestling a lot with order and chaos and to align with what you're saying is order, is truth, and that can be kind of found located in the first person of the Trinity. Obviously, god is one, but he reveals himself in three different ways. So the Father is the creator, the orderer, and he gives us that invitation. As the church, and I would say in our denomination and in Lutheranism in general, we've had a reaction now because it was going after truth. Now we've gone too far on the other end of the spectrum and we're actually putting up idols, you could say even rituals that if it doesn't look like this, sound like this, feel like this, it's not good Lutheran. And where we orient most often is worship right, the worship battle.
Speaker 2:It's got to look and feel the liturgy. Right, it's all about the liturgy, but then the other side of the coin is the Holy Spirit, or chaos, and Jesus identifies the Spirit as like the wind. Or Luther actually said the Holy spirit is like a wild goose, you can't fully get your head wrapped around. And therefore the centering point of all of human history is a person in work and way of of Jesus, who stepped down and brought order to our chaos, between us and God, and then also unleash the greatest movement by the power of the Spirit at Pentecost. The world has ever, ever seen Like Jesus perfectly embodies truth and spirit, trusting the God of order and then releasing, releasing the whole, and you will receive power and the Holy Spirit comes, comes upon you, maybe.
Speaker 2:I was having lunch with Gary Kinnaman here a couple couple weeks ago and man, I love that guy and we were talking about the Holy Spirit in us and the Holy Spirit upon us. And where Lutherans often talk about it's the Holy Spirit in me and being those that believe in, maybe, infant baptism and the Holy Spirit wrestling in me, creating and sustaining faith. Sure, fine, great, and we have biblical, there's a biblical concept for this, but we're really uncomfortable with the Holy Spirit, kind of. This is the book of Acts. You see it all over the place, andy, and the Holy Spirit fell upon them. What is that Like in a Western church, where it's like truth, like this is crazy, you know, and this is where I think we have something to learn from our charismatic brothers or sisters, where the Holy Spirit actually falls and there can be abuses on that end too. So I think it's holding truth and the Spirit in tension consistently. This is the invitation for following Jesus, and Jesus models that perfectly.
Speaker 2:And I think the early church, because it grew it, modeled that tension as well. We're not going to overly control what God is doing. I must obey God rather than man. The Spirit is at work. The Spirit is producing chaos, if you will. And then the Apostle Paul's letters are all in reaction to what the Holy Spirit has already done. The leaders that had already been sent. The Holy Spirit had gone before them. So any observations I'd love to get your take too on the Holy Spirit in and the Holy Spirit upon us as well, because I think in the Western church we have something to learn. We always have something to learn. Andy, this is so good. I agree with you.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean these directional things, the holy spirit in us, the holy spirit on us, the heroly spirit through us. Yeah, I think this has to do with our view of the body, the physical body. Why did god create the physical body? Because the holy spirit, I guess the best way to describe it. So many people see the human body as a container, like this glass, right? So the holy spirit is in us like a container, but our bodies are not containers, and so we talk about the holy spirit within us, upon, but also through us. So actually, our bodies are not hard containers the Holy Spirit, and that's why we will eventually have a spiritual body. But the spiritual body just simply means the Holy Spirit. It's not means non-physical, it means the Holy Spirit is in us, through us, and this is true through history, this has always been understood. So I think that's true.
Speaker 3:The other thing I would say to you on the issue of order is a lot of times when you were talking about how you're looking at order, that's often generational. Soon, many people coming in to know you guys are Lutheran is simply generational. Often, most of the younger generation have no clue. They don't even care. You know they're responding more to spirit and truth. They're trying to deal with their lives, but so, really, who's kind of focused in on those that grew up in Lutheran tradition or Presbyterian tradition? So you guys are facing a transitional time in history and the renewal of the church, and so to me, the Holy Spirit brings order, because Jesus said to his disciples at the very end of his life, before he went to the cross he said I'm going to send the holy spirit and he will remind you everything I have taught you. That's right. So here again, spirit and truth. Uh, we don't want to say, oh, the holy spirit has nothing to do with truth, you know all these kinds of things. So I think that, and also the issue is maturity. If we are discipling people, they bring their own order to a church. You don't need external order.
Speaker 3:The issue of external order always has to do with trying to control immature Christians because of the elements of their own desire. That gets out of control would be more chaos. It's true in society as well. The more we don't because early on American history, especially biblical values and living in Christian faith and morality, was at the basis of our society. Once you lose that, you have to create more laws, you have to create more control from the outside. So I think the church, once you have maturity in the body, it kind of brings its own order. It kind of is uh, brings its own order.
Speaker 3:Um, the danger, the reason that we see things out of order, let's say in the real pentecostal and maybe some of the charismatic, some of the things um, is simply because they're not rooted enough in the truth. You know, uh. But the other, those that are in the truth, that just kind of do expository stuff and pulpit centered, that, that that also can bring, because when we say truth it doesn't mean that everyone's speaking from the pulpit speaking truth. Right, I mean reality is there's so many sermons that are not truth, so, uh, or a mixture of all kinds of things, so there's disorder on both sides and it's a dynamic. And that's where leadership really comes in, in my view, that they are bringing a help. In other words, they're also modeling the maturity of spirit and truth and that that is then modeled in the church. And the more we do that, the more that we don't have to have external orders, a book of order. Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Um, I think the Holy spirit is the one that brings order and truth.
Speaker 2:Ah, yes, so have you been? Have you been following the story of the lutheran church missouri synod? There, andy, I'm joking, I know you haven't, but this is it's like you've been reading our mail. You've been, you've been behind the curtains of the tension that we're walking through right now and, um, you know, we're close to a 200 year old church body and we've gone from a very simple mandate for why we exist, which was all about mission Now to bylaws and Senate conventions and you know conflict resolution documents. You know it's a very, it's a very complicated thing that the Holy Spirit to give the spirit credit created. That the Holy Spirit to give the Spirit credit created. And so it's a new evolution, moving from a super high control to a high trust culture in our church body, and I know many other denominations are walking through the same thing.
Speaker 2:And when you're so truth-centered, the extreme is legalism or Pharisaism, and I can give you some examples of that. But then we're getting to the spirit center, the extreme. There would be heresy, and you can have heresy on either extreme, but just saying more than Scripture says, trying to get into it. And one thing we would say could be one of the struggles of the charismatic movement or the Pentecostal church in general, is saying more than than the word says and an over-reliance upon God's presence through the experience, through my, through my emotions. Right, god is true and he, he shapes my emotions, but I don't have to ascend to him or emotionally ascend to him to get his blessing. No, I mean he, I have his approval. So I've been, I've been wrestling, I'd love to get your take on this.
Speaker 2:I think, in the Reformation, luther oriented and the reformers oriented and Calvin, to a lot around justification, justification and kind of the courtroom metaphor Today, today, I believe, the new word or the new theological touch point that is the other side of the coin of justification, but heard in a 2024 year, for those that are far from the Lord, is identity, is identity and talking about where our identity truly, truly comes from. It comes from that claiming of Christ upon us. We are enveloped in Christ. That is our primary identity marker. Have you done any thought about how identity is such a huge topic today, andy, for folks, especially our, our young people, who were trying to disciple? Have you, have you spent some time there, andy? Well?
Speaker 3:when you look at church history, church renewal moments, it's gone back and forth with justification and sanctification. So justification is very important in the sense of grace through faith, right when we're not seeing, we're not substituting justification for sanctification, where, if you are holy enough, you're going to be accepted by God and this is obviously rooted in identity and in church history we do see periods of time where sanctification dominates and they lose justification. So you know, I would say too, the issue that you're talking about is that if you look at Luther's time, it was chaotic.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean it was a renewal movement time. It was chaotic. Yeah, I mean it was a renewal movement, so I don't know if I'd use the word chaotic, but there's always going to be things that are not under our control when there's renewal, because God is doing things and taking you somewhere that you don't really know but it stirs up the he's going to make you uncomfortable, you know, because we don't change unless things become uncomfortable. So the tendency, immediately when we see renewal things happening and we feel like, oh, things are getting out of control or not we know or we're not used to something, we immediately go to external control and then we start bringing in more of the book of order and, oh, we can't do that, we can't do. So I just think that it is a tension. I just think that it is a tension. And now you can break the church down prior to the Protestant Reformation, which that's why my focus is in Turkey, because almost we often think when people say, go back to the early church is our model of renewal, like we want to be the early church Right. Early church is our model of renewal, like we want to be the early church, right.
Speaker 3:So the problem is in the Western world. When I ever talk to people about the early church, they always talk about the Roman Catholic church because that's what's dominated the Western world in the area of the Protestant Reformation. But reality, all of the early church was in Asia. It was in Asia Minor, especially where it was Greek speaking almost all the way up to the 7th century. That's where all the ecumenical councils took place. Rome was really peripheral in the West. Where that changed was the expansion of Islam. Changed was the, the expansion of islam, so all of the apostolic centers of jerusalem, antioch, alexandria, then you had rome and then you have is you have constantinople. So when islam in the seventh century conquered the middle east, what we say in the Middle East, really he conquered all of the early church's land. So that's why when ISIS you remember ISIS situation where they started killing Christians, beheading Christians I remember talking to so many Western Christians that said I didn't even know the church existed there. Like what it's, like what the church was in the Middle East, like in Syria. What's the church doing in Syria? Right, well, because that is the underneath all of Islam today is the biblical lands and of the early church. And so I think so.
Speaker 3:But once you get to the Protestant Reformation if that's our starting point, especially when you talk about Lutheranism or Calvin reformed churches, they have a tendency and even church, you know, even in seminaries when they teach church history for years and years and years it might be changing a little bit, but they only talk about the Western church. They rarely talk about, you know, the movements that really are the early church and which is in the east. And when Paul went west, that's because Paul's missionary journeys went west. But there was a whole movement out of what we call Odessa which went east into China. I mean, we're talking, we missed at the exact same time and but even in church history we don't teach that.
Speaker 3:Well, that's why people are quite ignorant about the true early church and learning from that. So the other thing is a lot of people don't realize that that are focused in on being part of the Protestant Reformation, like Lutheran or Reformed or whatever. Those Reformers were influenced by the early church, not by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Church. That's where they went back to the emphasis of the ecumenical councils, to those that really, that's the monastic movements. This is really where the reformers pulled. All of their dynamic was there and a lot of times we look at the Protestant Reformation as self-contained, kind of in battle against the Roman Catholic Church. So that's how kind of we see it. But we miss the whole reality that the reformers Lutheran Calvin. They formed their viewpoints mostly from the Eastern Church and not from the Greek speaking church, not from the Roman Church.
Speaker 2:You're blowing people's minds right now, man, and mine as well. This is so good. Talk about the story of, because we kind of know Paul's journey. But if you can summarize the movement of the early church into the East, into China, who are some of the major players? And I love what you're drawing out? China, who are some of the major players, and I love what you're drawing out.
Speaker 2:I've had a number of guests make the point that you just made in terms of going back to the patristics and the early church fathers. If you will, that's where Luther and Calvin were drawing a lot of their inspiration. For sure. But I don't know, and this is why I love your book here, the Christian Saints of Turkey, and I love another one here. This is the lost land of the Bible prayer pilgrimage through Turkey. That's where a lot of your, your work, has oriented. So how do you tell the story of the church in Turkey and the church generally as it went into China? And I know that's a big ask, but paint with a little bit of a broad brush there. Andy, thank you, cause I don't. I don't think this story has been heard, told and maybe heard.
Speaker 3:We don't deal with that. But you know I would get my book because it's hard to kind of give it a description, all of it. But right by Antioch, the city of Antioch, there's a place called Edessa and that is one of these. That was the early church center, as much as Antioch was. And they went east. Paul went west. So when they went east up to about the 7th century, they went all the way to, of course, india. That's why southern India is Christian.
Speaker 3:It comes from that movement. They went into Central Asia, they went into all the way into China and we, because it ended around the seventh century, we're not really that familiar about it. But it is an important mission movement to understand, to understand. So I, you know, I just would encourage everyone to really get familiar with that whole Greek speaking early church where all the again, the basic change happened with it with the expansion of Islam. So when you get to the 7th century, rome was down like this this was Rome, this was the Eastern Church, this is where all the ecumenical councils happened. Better do it this way. So this is where all the ecumenical councils happened. This is where all the dynamic of what we know at the early church, the patristics, all that. The Pope rarely what we call the Pope today, but the Bishop of Rome rarely even went to the ecumenical councils, and so but what?
Speaker 3:happened when Islam conquered the Asia, asia Minor, where they even conquered Jerusalem Minor, where they even conquered Jerusalem. So they conquered the four apostolic centers of the early church, which is Jerusalem, alexandria, antioch and eventually, in 1453, they conquered a Constantinople. So what happened? The Roman church went like this, in importance, it's flipped, and then, because the church went West, we lost this whole dimension. Now we go back to certain ecumenical councils, but we do it as a creed, we don't understand the context, what the church was, as much. We don't go back to the church as movements, we just take, we pluck out the ecumenical councils and we use it. We use them, but they, that's when the Roman, that's when the whole push of the Pope, that's how the whole push in Europe, the Roman, you know church, but it was lost.
Speaker 3:And this is why the whole ISIS thing brought some awareness of the East. And of course, there was a split because the Roman Pope, at this point Bishop, with the coming of the Islam, said that he was now the bishop over all of the church. That's the biggest problem, because in Orthodoxy or the early greek church, all bishops were on an equal basis. And so this is the, it's still split in in that way. But uh, just to understand that the protestant reformation just didn't come out of the western church, they were extremely influenced because they they really rejected the roman cath, I mean the Pope's antichrist, so they went and got into what?
Speaker 2:I call the deep wells, spiritual wells, between the East and the West, between Rome and Turkey, the Greek Orthodox movement. I mean, there's no like one historical marker. It was just kind of a a, because I think a lot of times when you go through seminary and I've got my master divinity, whatever you're like, we didn't spend like any time. Well, I should, I should be more fair. I mean, we looked at, we looked at the early church, but it wasn't historically located. We looked at the patristics it wasn't historically located in the greek orthodox kind of I don't remember much there. So like I'm going crazy, right, this is amazing.
Speaker 3:Well, Greek Orthodoxy as we know it today was a late movement.
Speaker 3:A late movement, yeah, in Eastern Orthodoxy. So what I just encourage people to do is look at Eastern Orthodoxy as church renewal movements, because there were renewal movements that affected the creating of the ecumenical councils and the canonization of the Bible. So to me the dividing point is the expansion of Islam, of Islam Okay, people do not realize that affected everything in the church, because the center of everything was the Eastern Greek speaking world. So that was Eastern Rome, right? So Rome was split there. You had Western Rome and you had Eastern Rome. So when we think of Turkey, all that, the best Greco-Roman museums are in Turkey. That was the richest area of the Greco-Roman world and the Western. So it was a divided Roman Empire. So even the Byzantines that was a later concept of Byzantine they were really understood themselves as Romans so, but they were the Eastern Roman church. So that's why Constantine, his conversion was a dynamic change, but that was in the Eastern world, the Western world.
Speaker 3:So once Islam conquered and that's why mission for me, and that's why mission for me for 30 years I've been engaged in the resurrection of the church in the east, which is an Islamic world, but it's just the top layer, the that land is. Centuries and centuries of prayer come from that land and I call it the deep wells. It's a place where you can put your roots down into the deep wells of the early church and Islam. People look at only the surface of Islam, but Islam is simply the top layer, the real reality that is so rich. That's why, when we talk about tours, I call them spiritual pilgrimages, because you connect spiritually with that land in the early church. And it is a spiritual because the Holy Spirit is still working. He works because the prayers of centuries and centuries and centuries are steeped in that land and we you actually connect with that when you experience more. You know I'm not talking about a dry tour, I'm talking about a spiritual pilgrimage, spiritual pilgrimage, and so in that today, obviously it's mission to Islam, muslims. That's what I've been involved in, but I am, you know, we're really talking about Bible lands, right?
Speaker 3:So when I studied in Jerusalem for a year, I was young, um, that's where I got hooked into the Bible lens. I studied there a year and then I was pastoring in Virginia beach and I wanted to take our church into an area of the world that no one else was going to. Nothing would be changed unless we went. And as I was praying one day, as you know, in your office, I was just asking the Lord, lord, give me a. You know, give you know really would like our church to have make a difference in the world.
Speaker 3:And I had a visitation where Turkey came in and was branded in me and I, you know, in me, and I, you know, I was, you know, I'm ordained in the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, even though most of my life has been in the non-denominational church, because I came to the Lord right out of high school in Europe, in Amsterdam. That's a whole other story. So I didn't really even know what the church was. But the point is I just took a step and said Lord, ok, and I took a couple elders and there was no Christians there. I mean we're talking like very few outreaches, but and it was like the New Testament, I mean going into that land, it's like Paul's journey is all over again. And that's where I got a vision.
Speaker 3:The Lord spoke to me about a network At that time. We use the word network a lot today, but in 1990, the church was only built around mission agencies, mission sending agencies. The church was only built around mission agencies, mission sending agencies. I had a vision for networking to mobilize people from all over the world into Turkey with the indigenous church, and it's still. You can go to itnetorg and you can see our website. We have an operational center in Istanbul.
Speaker 3:I'm kind of now just the spiritual. Over a year ago I passed it on to younger leaders who are very capable. So that is why it isn't just an idea of evangelizing Muslims, it's reconnecting with our true roots spiritually, and it's not an intellectual thing, it isn't just a historical thing. Too often it is literally rooting ourselves into the deep wells of the early church. That will transform, in my view. It transforms people and it would transform people in understanding the pagan culture that the church was living in. Today, in my view, we're in a pagan culture again and we have more identification of what we have to be believers in a pagan culture like the New Testament, and that's why I believe the New Testament can become alive again, in a sense, and identifying the same dynamics that the early church was experiencing.
Speaker 2:Wow, I love your story and love your heart. I love your heart. I'm curious and I think some with a Western mind you know very logical by the book, especially speaking to folks that are maybe imbalanced with a around around truth and order and the Holy Spirit kind of does what the Holy Spirit does and falls upon you. What, what was that Like? I think that's a very strange thing for many listeners to have a nation kind of fall upon your spirit. I don't, I don't really know that I haven't personally had. Well, I shouldn't say that Mexico has been on my spirit for a long period of time. I know I'm learning Spanish right now and I believe we need to care for and learn with our brothers and sisters just to the South. But that's quite a calling upon your life. Can you allow listeners to understand a little bit more what that experience was like, andy? Because it's very unusual, I think, to many listeners.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when Turkey fell upon you. Yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 3:That's how God's been worked in my life. That's how I'll kind of explain. I mean, I've talked about I'm running for the Arizona House of Representatives today, which that's another whole story, but it's exactly the same thing happened to me. God opens the door and I feel such conviction of a direction that I really didn't have. It's like Abraham Go to that land. He didn't know where he was going, right, and that's how God's worked in my life. And just, it's an issue of obedience, really to take one step at a time. But that's all I did. And, um, you know it's you have to be spiritually led to do, to break ground. There's no other way, because there's no book, there's nothing.
Speaker 3:And the issue today is with the church of the global church. A lot of the issue is that we had to deal with all kinds of churches coming into Turkey. And you know, lutheran churches wanted to plant Lutheran churches, presbyterians wanted to plant Presbyterians. Well, you're dealing with a blank slate in Turkey, like the church, except the early church. They were going to the early church, the biblical church, because that was their land. I mean, it's like they went to Ephesus. Okay, we're having an outreach in Ephesus or whatever. You know, it's really, paul. You know Tarsus is in Turkey, paul's hometown. You know Tarsus is in Turkey, paul's hometown.
Speaker 3:But today the issue is that the global church is steeped in the Holy Spirit. This is where most Westerners now have the difficulty. It's because they are under really difficult circumstances and they need empowerment. I mean there's no, it's survival, because they're often and that's where the persecutions are happening too in the global church. But it is growing, the fastest growing. It's interesting. The fastest growing churches in Turkey are Iranian. The fastest growing churches in Turkey are Iranian. They're Persian speaking churches because they come over from Iran and we used to have them come over do training and they would go back. Now a lot of them are trying to get west through Turkey. Turkey's kind of the bridge from east and west. It literally is. Istanbul is the only city on two continents Asia and Europe, so it's a bridge, but God is doing some amazing things. So that issue is more cultural and also biblical truth is important, discipleship, biblical truth is important Discipleship. But that was I mean it totally because of the way I came to the Lord just real quick on that, because that is what opened me up to even be able to do what I did.
Speaker 3:I didn't grow up in a Christian home. I grew up in Seattle in a working class family. I was born in the projects but for saying I kind of grew up on the streets in our neighborhood that back then people didn't move around that much, you kind of lived in and so, for whatever reason, I was extremely gifted in sports and I was playing with really older people and in any way I was. I was recruited as a quarterback, very strong. But my main thing is I was drafted by the Mets out of high school in the third round as a shortstop and I played college for one year. Then I was going to sign At the end of my college season.
Speaker 3:I started to get really bad headaches and I was getting dizzy and it ended up where I passed out one time when I came home from college and they diagnosed me with a brain tumor and it wasn't cancerous but it was right at the top of my neck area and I had I mean it was a major surgery. I had to learn to walk again. Um, my, and somebody growing up with the that kind of recognition in sports at that young of an age, your ego is so I mean all of. We're talking about identity. My whole identity was that Right, I mean. And then when it's gone, and all of my dreams of playing professionally and all that was gone, I dropped out of life and I mean my whole world ended. I I put on a back.
Speaker 3:After about a few months the doctor said don't you know, I wanted to go to Europe. I was just going to go to Europe, drop out. And I did. And I went by myself. No one else wanted to go. I put on a backpack, bought a one way ticket and over several months I came into Amsterdam, I was in and out and that's when a lot of the young people were, you know, moving to the East, to Eastern religions, and the Beatles went East. All you know the whole movement. They call it the hippie trail from Amsterdam to India. That's what. A lot of people going to India.
Speaker 3:And there was a ministry in Amsterdam to young people. There was two houseboats behind the train station, it was called the Ark and the long story is I was coming back in, I was in this big park of young people and these two I was lost on a tram. I couldn't remember how to get to this park and I said I asked these young couple next to me, like guy and a girl. You know it was called Vondelpark, how do you get there? And they go, oh, we're going there. And so I said, oh great, so we were just talking there. And so I said, oh great, so we were just talking there and they said they just said, hey, would you like? I said what do you guys do? You know? You know, well, we live in a Christian community of young people. And they just like I said, what Like? I didn't, and you know there's higher Krishna everywhere. I mean, it was like, and I didn't have really any Christian background. I was exposed a little bit. This will give you interesting.
Speaker 3:My mom wanted us as kids to have some kind of Christian influence. So I was, I was went through confirmation in Missouri centered Lutheran church. So you know, I was kicked out once, but I I did finally graduate and what was so funny at that time is in confirmation we had to do a mini sermon and so I wrote I did this thing and I don't even remember that much. But my mom said the pastor came to me and said he's going to be a pastor and my mom said what Like? Everyone was like no way. I mean, there was not, you know, and and so, anyway, when I went to Europe, um, I had no clue, I can't. They invited me come to dinner and before I knew it I was walking with them.
Speaker 3:I went to the houseboats and then I was helping with them and then the leader was Floyd McClung. I don't know if you've ever heard of Floyd McClung. Anyway, he said, andy, would you like to come onto the boats as a seeker? And I said, well, what the heck is a seeker? I have no idea what you're talking about. And he said, well, you just participate with us. You know, you do community. And then we have Bible studies and and after about three weeks, I had a unbelievable conversion and, I think, a calling at the same time. And what happened was, when you play high sports, you have a focus. It isn't just skill level, there's something innate, that you have that a focus.
Speaker 3:And when I came to the Lord, that was renewed, I mean, and that all went to the kingdom, I mean, and that all went to the kingdom. And I, you know, this was community, and it was in community that I was really discipled, and we used to immediately go out on the streets of Amsterdam and evangelize, and I didn't know any difference. It was like this was the DNA that I was birthed in, you know, as that's what Christianity was community life, dna of worship, bible and evangelism mission. And that's why, when I came back, I felt like I had to come back from my parents because they were really concerned. I felt like I had to come back from my parents because they were really concerned.
Speaker 3:That's when I went back and got my BA in biblical studies and I was just totally kingdom, not church based, kingdom based, and that has been the guiding DNA of my life and I've never had any boundaries and I've never so ever how the Lord leads me, I think kingdom and and he did lead me in the church, you know, but but it was the same kingdom orientation, not church orientation, but kingdom orientation. And that actually led me to this whole idea Lord, take our church somewhere in the world where no one else is going, that we can make a difference and and people will know that. And that mindset came out of my, my conversion experience.
Speaker 2:Oh, andy, thank you for sharing your story. Spectacular. Just putting a bow at the very end, jesus mentions the church. Like one time You're right On those gates. You know, I'll build my church On this declaration of Peter. I'll build my church. Gates of hell won't stand against it. Um, but man, he talks about the kingdom all the time. Repent, john the Baptist, right Metanoia. You know, have set your mind on things above, a new way of being, a move, if you will, to a spiritual dimension. For the kingdom of heaven is near. Jesus says the exact same thing, and then he inaugurates he does. The kingdom of heaven is near. Jesus says the exact same thing, and then he inaugurates, he does. The kingdom finds people to do it with him, to let the world know there's a God. We're not it. And the God's on the throne and he's on the move.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and he stepped down yeah, go ahead. Yeah, when we were talking about one of the spiritual dynamics of renewal. It's a kingdom theology, there's no question For sure. When the church declined, they became church-centered and what has always brought renewal is a renewal of spiritual theology. I mean kingdom theology. Yes, that has the idea that Jesus is lord over all of reality. Yeah, and so there's no boundaries anymore. It's simply and that's the book of acts actually, um, so it doesn't mean that you don't have church order in the local church I'm not saying that but it's's dynamic and it's life-giving and it gives vision.
Speaker 3:You can cast vision with a kingdom theology, and I was birthed under George Ladd in his kingdom theology and many of the others that came and that was the early church evangelicalism. What we'd call new evangelicalism after World War II was really birthed out of kingdom theology. So that's the dynamic that brought renewal very strongly in what we would call new evangelicalism. And I would just say, yeah, that's another thing. I would really encourage those that are looking for renewal that they really get steeped into kingdom theology, because you're right, if we're following Jesus, jesus' whole message was the kingdom Totally. I mean, he only mentions biblical church.
Speaker 3:If you're a kingdom church, because there is no other definition of a biblical church, because jesus birthed the church and he birthed it with a kingdom theology and that was what the whole great commission was about. And even at the end of he said when's the second coming? Well, when the kingdom is proclaimed throughout the earth, throughout every ethnic. So I mean, it is key. And local churches, the validity of calling yourself a biblical church, is the degree that you're a kingdom, and that is where vision comes, that's what the Holy Spirit empowers. And so you know, justification is a key theological element of renewal, but it has to be any. Even sanctification has to be embedded in a kingdom theology.
Speaker 2:It in a kingdom theology, andy, this is so much fun. Time has flown. I'm in a church order structure right now that's requiring me to go to a staff meeting, andy, so I actually got to go to our Gilbert campus orderly. They're going to wonder why aren't you here on time? No, no, that our team's amazing, but we got to have you back because I have so many questions to dig deeper into the story of the Eastern church, some patristic, early church fathers, that you think we should re-examine understanding the times. We can talk about that.
Speaker 2:I love your book Mormonism Explained. So, so helpful. Some, some interconnections between Islam and Mormonism as well that are quite fascinating and I want to talk. So the last thing I'd love for you to just share your move into politics here in the state of Arizona. Tell that story. I think a lot of people will be like whoa, this guy just taught kingdom the whole time and now he's moving down into their earthy things, right, and the power of the petty political partisan. You know, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff that you're kind of engaging in. Tell that. Tell that story.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just think people, unfortunately the church has gotten really rooted in a private Christianity. Unfortunately, the church has gotten really rooted in a private Christianity, but it's a dichotomy that we've created between the private and public. And I mentioned Jesus is Lord over all reality and you know, this was totally unexpected. I just heard my, you know somebody asked me hey, would you run for the Arizona House of Representatives? I'm only interested locally. So I did. I said you know, I'm not.
Speaker 3:It's not because I don't believe that we need. It's really the issue of government. It's not because I don't believe that we need. It's really the issue of government. It's not politics God created government to because we live in a fallen world. So government is ordained as much as the church is ordained for order in a fallen world. So the issue is not politics, which is a lot of people, it's government, and our families is the center. Families are the center of society and they're most affected by government because and so I just see myself as the Lord's going to position me, not that I don't, I plan only to do one term, two years, but he, I think he's positioning me among very influential individuals in Arizona, in the business world, in all areas of the, not just politicians, because I feel like what's going to happen is you know, these people are struggling with their lives, marriages, they're facing the same thing we do, but they don't know where to go because they don't want to, because they're so influential that that they don't want to be exposed, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3:But if I'm in the insides, two things could happen. But if I'm in the insides, two things could happen I can minister to them and they are more apt to come to me with my background. The other thing is, I want to mobilize the church into the public square. So if I'm in the inside, I can be a bridge to help empower local churches. We're called to be salt and light. I mean not just the Great Commission of going overseas. We're called to be salt and light where we are. And so I just all of the instinctiveness that I have in mission, all the things that we talked about, my DNA, it's all the same to me. I'm going into this just like I would any mission field of Turkey or anywhere else. There's no shift in me. And so, but if right now I'll just end with this, is that interacting even with me declaring I've been contacted by many people and, for example, I was just with the attorney of Maricopa County, who's over I don't know how many hundreds and hundreds of attorneys, and I sat with her.
Speaker 3:She asked him to meet with me. I sat with her. I mean, here's a very influential person in Arizona and we prayed together. I prayed with her. She's a believer and but they're getting isolated because the church and I hear it all the time by non-Christians in the public square we don't think the church is relevant to the contemporary problems of our society. Why they never see any of the church. They don't meet any pastors. Pastors aren't speaking on issues. They're not showing up in school boards to help protect families in their congregation where children are being exposed to. I mean, it's not black and white anymore, it's not like there's neutral area.
Speaker 3:I grew up as a Democrat in Seattle in a working class, but that was classical liberalism. Now the Democratic Party, I know used to be oh, I like a little bit of both, but now the Democratic Party are leftists and they are not hiding anything. This is literally their religion and they are going to try to transform society and where they're doing it is that our children. If they can destroy the family. They can control, the state can take over, for example. So anyway, that's just a summary of what's kind of behind my motivation. I just believe, as I was called a turkey, I take one step at a time, and whether I win or not isn't the issue. Even running, I will have influence in the public square.
Speaker 2:Amen, andy, it's an honor to call you a friend and partner in the gospel. To get a sit at your feet and learn is a privilege. I know everyone listening to this today feels the same, praying for you as you move into, with the spirit of the risen Jesus resting upon you, into the government and political conversations of this day and age. It's a spiritual battle right now, and I agree with you that there is an assault on the family husbands loving their wives, wives loving and respecting their husbands and raising kids who understand the king of the universe. His name is Jesus Christ and bending the knee to him, who alone gives us our identity, who alone gives us a mission that is greater than us individually?
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, go ahead, andy. I would just conclude with this too. I mean we can go many different directions, but I pastored in two churches. Both of them were pretty much mega churches, and Word of Grace had 5,000 in attendance a weekend, right? So one of the things when pastors today back when I was pastoring, it was the atheists who were saying, hey, separation of church and state, get back into your four walls. That was the battle. Today, pastors are now saying, oh, there's separation of church and state. We can't be there. And if we bring politics quote, quote, external politics into the church, it'll divide the church. And I say all of my experience is there's as much politics in the church as there is outside the church.
Speaker 2:And so don't tell me like you're in a neutral spot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know that. Don't tell me like you're in a neutral spot. All churches are steeped in politics, because life is politics, it's relationships, it's issues of power or places of you're going to battle over the budget who's going to get the budget, you know, and people manipulate things, and then when you have churches are made up of all kinds of people that have different. You have to navigate right, but so it's steep and they say, well, we don't want to bring in this because it's controversial, it might split the church. I say all churches split over internal politics, not external politics.
Speaker 2:Gosh. Andy, I have conversations around this topic all day long.
Speaker 2:If you're a listener and you'd like to give me feedback about you, know, Andy, you wanted to come and talk here and our stance, if you will, and I have to submit it to a board and I have to submit to my team in many respects and getting our heads wrapped around, if we bring someone that's running for state in and if he says something that gets us in trouble, could there be a lawsuit? It's all fear. So, anyway, I am honored to call you a friend. I personally stand with you and the mission that you're about. This is one way to get the word out that we have a lot of listeners here in Arizona, so where can they connect with your campaign?
Speaker 3:Just go to Arizona. I mean andrewjacksonazcom. Andrewjacksonazcom is my website. Contact me personal. My phone number is 480-776-4877. 480-776-4877. And I'd be glad to talk to anybody. Don't hesitate to call me so good.
Speaker 2:This is the American Reformation Podcast. Sharing is caring. Like. Subscribe, comment. This is a podcast of the United Leadership Collective. We aim to have inspiring conversations with those within the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod and outside, recognizing there is one holy Christian apostolic church Anybody that bends the knee to Jesus as King and Lord. We're united in that mission to make him known. Thanks so much, andy. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. You're a blessing to me, brother. Thank you, thank you.