Join Stella Yau and me as we traverse the landscape of an American church in the throes of reformation, where the confines of worship expand into the vibrancy of community engagement. Stella shares her profound journey from intercultural ministry with Link to an upcoming venture in Southeast Asia, revealing the profound impact of intentional relationships and the living testament of God's work in our lives.
As we peel back the layers of leadership and personal loss, grief, especially through the lens of my Chinese-American heritage, unfolds in a raw and heartfelt narrative. It's a reflection on how storytelling and cultural sensitivity intertwine with the process of honoring loved ones, and a testament to how these personal experiences can reshape our understanding of community and faith.
This episode is also a passport to the world of cross-cultural discipleship, from the Asian American experience to the heart of Southeast Asia and Hong Kong. We explore how the gospel message resonates within diverse cultural traditions and the call for unity and humility within the church. As we conclude, the conversation turns to the personal practices that guide Stella towards success — success defined not by external benchmarks but by internal growth and sanctification. Tune in and be part of this journey of transformation, community, and the pursuit of a life well-lived.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
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Join Stella Yau and me as we traverse the landscape of an American church in the throes of reformation, where the confines of worship expand into the vibrancy of community engagement. Stella shares her profound journey from intercultural ministry with Link to an upcoming venture in Southeast Asia, revealing the profound impact of intentional relationships and the living testament of God's work in our lives.
As we peel back the layers of leadership and personal loss, grief, especially through the lens of my Chinese-American heritage, unfolds in a raw and heartfelt narrative. It's a reflection on how storytelling and cultural sensitivity intertwine with the process of honoring loved ones, and a testament to how these personal experiences can reshape our understanding of community and faith.
This episode is also a passport to the world of cross-cultural discipleship, from the Asian American experience to the heart of Southeast Asia and Hong Kong. We explore how the gospel message resonates within diverse cultural traditions and the call for unity and humility within the church. As we conclude, the conversation turns to the personal practices that guide Stella towards success — success defined not by external benchmarks but by internal growth and sanctification. Tune in and be part of this journey of transformation, community, and the pursuit of a life well-lived.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray that Jesus is just jumping off every page of scripture for you as you meditate on his word, that you are looking at the people and the places, all the places you'll go, the people you'll get to hang out with with joy and wonder that you're moving. From scarcity, woe is me victim to wow, from woe to wow, wow. Jesus, you have so much in store for me and my heart is just bursting with joy at the privilege of being alive in 2024, wherever it is. That you're taking this in Life is a huge, huge gift. And I get the privilege of leaning into life today with my guest, stella Yalak. She has been the director, regional director, at Link out of Southern California for a number of years now, and I saw that she was transitioning to Southeast Asia. I spent time in Bangkok. 10 days in Bangkok Sounds like a movie, doesn't?
Speaker 1:it.
Speaker 2:About four or five years ago, pre-covid, and I saw you were moving there and I just wanted to hear more of your story. I've known you, stella, for quite a while now and just admired you from afar, and so excited to talk about Jesus with you today. Stella, how are you doing?
Speaker 3:Doing great. Tim, thank you so much for inviting me, and what a fun and exciting time and, yeah, looking forward to having this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to have a good time. So standard opening question on this podcast how are you praying? You're moving to Thailand, so now you get to be. You know you grew up. For those who don't know, you were born in Hong Kong, correct, correct Parents, a lot of family from Hong Kong and going to be spending time now in Thailand and Southeast Asia looking to travel and you've also done through Link. You've done a lot of cross-cultural, intercultural ministry. As you look at the landscape of the church in America, how are you praying for reformation?
Speaker 3:You know, honestly, my prayer has been how can we be intentional in the relationships that we have currently in our circle, those who are in our lives?
Speaker 3:And being faithful in these relationships and intentionality matter because I really believe that, while I, my family and I are faithful churchgoers, we also believe in what it looks like to be the church outside of church. Right, and I believe reformation, transformation, how God works, how the spirit works within these relationships, within these intentionality, in the relationships where God has placed us, whether in the workplace or outside of church, different community groups that we're part of. And so my prayer is how can my husband and I, ron and he works in the bank, and so how can we daily bear the image of God and lead people to look at us and ask question and be able to have those spiritual conversation and let them be curious and lean in? And so, yeah, that's been my prayer is how to be a living testament day in and day out in where God has called us to be living testament day in and day out in where God has caused to be, Isn't that it?
Speaker 2:I mean it's sad.
Speaker 2:I don't like to talk about sad things, but it's sad that somehow the church has been equated with a space and we got to grieve a little bit before we can grow as a space rather than a group of people, you know, with different roles, different gifts, messy and bringing our mess to Jesus and then offering our mess to one another in the hopes of building deeper, deeper friendship. I've been thinking a lot about friendship lately. If I could pray for one thing for leaders at any season and stage of life in the church, it's just to deepen, deepen friendships. And guess how? You guess how you deepen friendships, stella, you ask for help. Do you remember being a little girl? You know putting together a little plain house or something like that.
Speaker 2:And you had to have. You had to have partners, you needed friends and and unfortunately maybe we've elevated unduly certain people and even told pastors you shouldn't have, you can't have friends, you can't trust people, and then that kind of perspective toward fear of depth in a relationship just kind of filters down and it's very, it's very dysfunctional. And so I hope leaders are are modeling a certain level of transparency and humility and deepening those friendships. I got some gifts but, man, I got a lot of gaps and I need you to be, I need you to be my friend. Any, any response to the topic of friendships, stella, you know that is so beautiful, Tim, I love.
Speaker 3:I love that because I learned, I grew up, like I said, in Hong Kong and even after immigrating with my family in San Francisco, it's still very monoculture.
Speaker 3:I mean, I grew up in a, I would say, Chinese Lutheran church not even I mean now it's a Chinese, Chinese American Lutheran church but again, very monoculture.
Speaker 3:And really I am so thankful of God for Link, because it really is in and through Link that I have gained friendship that is of different backgrounds, not just ethnic background, cultural background, generational background, and, like you said, there are gaps in what we know and our lived experiences and it's not all of what we know and see.
Speaker 3:But in community with even my team, I have Belen, who's a Eritrean American, Osahan, who's a Nigerian American, I have Jonathan, who is, you know, as American as can be Anglo from the Southwest, and so, man, these friendships are so valuable because I've never learned so much about just God's image and the different background, culture, ethnicity, generation, until I am connected and introduced to meet these different leaders and people in and through Link. And that's the beauty of that multicultural, multi-generational. I just thrive in that space because I know how much I'm lacking and I get to learn so much. I mean, even sitting in this space, I'm learning from you and hopefully you're encouraged in learning from me too and those who are listening, and so it's a huge encouragement and it's a huge need.
Speaker 2:So tell us about the work you did, uh your length, your run with link and the varying roles, I think, uh the spaces that you kind of helped occupy, and give a give before you do that, just give kind of an overview of folks who are like link, link, like like uh, I don't, I don't, I've never heard of this linc, by the way, so yeahC by the way. So yeah, define, define, link there, stella.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so LINK. It used to stand for a different acronym, but now it stands for leaders in every community, because we want to pour into the leaders and our promise is no leader walks alone. Talk about community and authenticity and being in relationship, learning together. One of LINK's promises no leader walks alone. And just two things, high level.
Speaker 3:Our ultimate goal at the end of the day, why each of us do what we do at Link is that everyone would experience the gospel in terms that they can't understand from someone that they know. I mean, even as I say that, I hope that even listeners can think of a person, a face or an, an experience or a time, an event where they themselves had experienced or heard the gospel in terms that they can understand from someone that they know. So that's the ultimate why of why we do what we do, how we go about doing that is, we've emphasized on the leaders, the grassroots, gospel-motivated leaders in every community and helping them build either ministries, nonprofits, businesses or churches that bring about that hope and help in every corner of our city. So that's high level. Overview of of Lincoln.
Speaker 2:And your role, and your role over the years, yeah.
Speaker 3:So my role, my role over the years I've been with Lincoln now, man, this is all God a blessing For a little over seven years. I started out as a missions director for a little local church in Temple City for two years and then, overlapping the second years, I worked very closely. At the time City director is Dominic Rifkin, so I worked with him as an associate city director. So I worked with him as an associate city director and after he stepped off the LENC team and became the mission executive for the Pacific Southwest District for those who might be more familiar with that district I was very intentionally poured in and invested by Dominic to be the city director. So I am the city director for LENC and to maybe just a little correction in the introduction we only recently brought in the idea of having a regional director. So I'm not the regional director, there's a different director for regional the West Coast, but I am the city director for Link SoCal.
Speaker 2:Well, forgive me, no, no, you could be the regional, you could be the national Stella, for goodness sake.
Speaker 3:I wanted to honor the person who is in that position.
Speaker 2:I know, I know I'm just being silly, so let's talk about your transition. And you were just telling me before we hit record about you know, every leader walks through seasons and every leader is in transition you know, and I don't have the, I have to remind myself consistently that I'm in transition.
Speaker 2:You know, and I don't have the, I have to remind myself consistently that I'm in transition, and there could be a long transition or a shorter one, but you're in a season of transition, you? You told me too that losing both of your parents in the last, in the last year or so, has kind of brought you to an introspective place. That's what grief does, and just say a little bit about what the grief journey has been like for you, as you've then prayerfully thought about, hey, lord, you may be opening up some doors for a different season.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's a great question, tim. I will try to be brief, as you ask for a brief response and for listeners. I don't know if you get to see the video or just mainly in audio, but my last name, my arm might not have given away and me saying I was born in Hong Kong, that I am ethnically Chinese, and I want to start with that because at least my experience growing up Chinese, chinese, american is grief was never taught or even modeled, and so it's very foreign. I have not grow up with a lot of losses in my life, and I mean sure, losses of even just the transition of being immigrants, right, I mean, but yet I was never equipped or trained or taught what grief is and how to grieve. And so when both my parents passed away, uh, in, we're in 24.
Speaker 3:So in 2022, I I didn't know what to do. Like, I knew I've learned about grief as a head knowledge, but I had no idea how to process my own grief, and so, thankful to some church friends, they recommended I don't know if you are familiar with it a thing called Grief Share, which is a video based. A lot of churches have it. They meet, I think, over a span of 12 or 14 weeks and they watch these videos, work through the workbooks, go through some Bible verses and just in community, share and grieve together. So, man, praise God for that. Because I, my mom, passed, my dad passed away, first in April and then, literally three months later, my mom passed away in July, and so when I found Grief Share, it was last year, 2023. And it happened. I happened to go through that Grief Share journey between my dad's one year anniversary and my mom's one year anniversary, and so my process of grief has been honestly learning about grief.
Speaker 3:I don't think I've had much time to really process my grief and grief. I'm sure there are times I have been, but not intentionally, because those who know grief, you need to intentionally process grief. So for me it's been a journey of learning a little bit of processing. But the reason why we're doing this, where we're going to Southeast Asia, is actually being intentional to grieve, which is why part of the trip to Southeast Asia is actually to go back to Hong Kong, where a lot of my relatives are to potentially collect stories of my mom and dad. So not just to remember and honor, but it's a process of grieving.
Speaker 3:So I know that's not very brief. I feel like I want to provide context as to what we're doing, or doing, at least what I'm doing. What I'm doing and my husband is on board with it, and that's what I've been learning is there's never an end. Grief looks very different to different people, and grief also looks different depending on your relationship with your parents. Like my relationship with my dad is very different than my relationship with my mom, and so grief, accepting that grief also looks different, even in that sense, and not feel guilty that maybe there are days I feel more sad about losing mom than I did dad, it doesn't put into question that, like I love my mom more, you know and and. But learning that it's so foreign and so strange and so weird, and so it's still a journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Thanks for sharing For us to become more culturally sensitive, culturally aware.
Speaker 2:I'm praying for more intercultural interactions in the church too for us in the Missouri Synod and beyond, just with that posture of humility and sensitivity into our diverse ways that we view the world, right, all under the Christian umbrella all under the Christian umbrella, by the way, right, and we need one another. So get us behind, go up to 30,000 feet if you will, for those of us who are unfamiliar with, maybe, the Chinese culture and how that could lead us, lead that people group to say you know what? I? We don't really process what. What is it about the Chinese culture that that maybe makes grief a foreign thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think. One other thing I can think of just off the top of my head, uh, learning cultural intelligence is we're a very honor and shame culture as opposed to, I think, americans more the the guilt phase, right, and so what that means is you often, if crying and sadness, uh, is often seen as weakness, and then you're bringing shame to the family, like literally. I remember going to a funeral and this is actually my in-laws um, where you know one is being told you don't need to cry, they lived a long life. You know, I'm like, but that's, but that's the thing.
Speaker 3:It's almost like seeing as a weakness. It doesn't look good. It's about saving face, right, it's about putting on this mask, um, and the culture is like that. And so I would say, when it comes to grief, uh, it can be seen as a weakness, it can be seen as you don't want to talk about negative thing, and so let's just only talk about happy things, right, only talk about joyous things. I mean not to say that. I mean Bible covers all of it, right, there are stories that talk, there are stems from shame and honor, and so are their guilt-based too. So it speaks to both Eastern and Western side of the cultural value, but we operate as Asians tend to be more heavily in that shame-based culture.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, yeah, I'm a history guy too, and your parents probably would have been alive during the you could call it genocide in communist China in Mao's late 60s. Were your parents around involved in that. Do you know much of that story?
Speaker 3:I think you're frozen. Should I keep going, tim? I heard your question. Sure, oh, should I. Okay, are you back? Can you hear me?
Speaker 2:We're experiencing some. I don't know why it's doing this, but yeah, so did. Did I've heard that that Mao's story and the Red Guard, that story in China? I'm going down a little rabbit trail here because I'm just interested in history, that that, that that story may not have been told completely to students in China, and if your parents had any lived experience with that, yeah, you know that's so interesting, tim, that you asked that One.
Speaker 3:I think I love and hate history Depends on who you get as a history teacher right, it can be kind of dry, but it's also very interesting when you watch it in a film format right.
Speaker 3:So I would say I'm not very super knowledgeable in history, but I know certain things. I can tell you that. I don't know if you know this or the audience know this, because I was born and raised in hong kong during the era of still under uh, britain, um, with democracy and all that. I think we were much more aware of history growing up, of what happened in china as opposed to in china. I can say maybe the kids there were not taught that right, they blotted out right. So, and that's the other reason why I want to interview my relatives in Hong Kong is because I have noticed the older generation and this might be true too of some Japanese American here, because of what happened even in America right With Japanese internment camp, that the older generation, because of grief not processed right, not taught, not encouraged to, they have a hard time talking about it. And so, with that said, I think certain stories even if I want to ask, I don't think my dad specifically my dad was older than my mom wanted to go into a lot of details because there's a lot of pain that's not processed right. I think from what I was able to gather after his death from you know, looking through things and pictures was when my dad was alive. He always had this narrative and he always shared that. You know, I grew up poor, and we grew up so poor that on our birthday we only get two boiled eggs, and so he wanted us to remember that, right, so that should continue our birthday we get two boiled eggs. But then, when he passed away, we found documents where I'm like my grandpa on my dad's side is very literate, like it got to a point where I'm thinking, wait, how are you so? Okay, mind you, this might be speculation, right? History what we believe happened is that I think my dad and grandpa my especially my grandpa were very literate, probably worked for some high government official because of his literacy and they probably lived a fairly good life, but because of, maybe, revolutionary war again, whatever war to place they had to run for their lives. Right, um, that they have left, and it's in trying to survive and escaping and running that my dad was so young that that's all he remembers. So he only remember, like, the suffering, being poor at that time. Right, growing up, um, but really that's how it must have impacted him. But because they ended up in hong kong.
Speaker 3:It's not that that history is blotted out. Right, it's only blotted out, I believe, in china. But that's why, even if you think about the pandemic years, if anyone is familiar or follow the news, that's the whole yellow umbrella movement in Hong Kong, because ever since 97 and Hong Kong got handed over to China okay, I hope that this podcast will not be played in Hong Kong or China, because I will get in trouble, for this Is that it's the education system. That's where they try to change narrative and history. Right, so that's where it started.
Speaker 3:The whole umbrella movement is that those in education sector in Hong Kong were like wait, you cannot rewrite like that because then the future generation will not know history and really know what happened. But guess what? Guess who controls the narrative and the story and the history being told right. So I'm seeing that now and more and more in recent years in Hong Kong. It's a hard battle to fight, because Hong Kong, a little island, can you really fight against China? But not having grown up in China, from what I'm hearing, is what you're saying is probably fairly accurate, in that they just don't learn that in history fairly accurate in that we just, they just don't learn that in history.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm not going to go down this path, but we, we, we have some similarities in what's going on in in our telling of our history and the American story today which just controlling, you know, he who controls the stories, controls the culture and I'm praying that the entire story, which is good, really good, and it's tough, and all of it, wouldn't be kept from our kids and future generations so that they would behave with character and honor and ministry. Life history is remarkably complex, yes, yes, and I realized that my life is remarkably gray and the identity politics of this day and age.
Speaker 2:I pray the church functions in a space that is above that Um and doesn't doesn't pander to. I have to agree with you on absolutely everything. For us to be friends, right, that is a toxic place to be.
Speaker 2:It's a fast track toward a miserable life and a very divisive life, and I pray the church collective, elevates itself and only the Holy Spirit really repentance, metanoia to set our mind on things above brings us to that, brings us to that place and then we can actually look with less judgment, just more honesty about here, are some trends of things that happened in other times and places and cultures that we may not want to.
Speaker 2:We may not want to go down those paths. You know, and I think the church needs to occupy that, that space of speaking the truth in love with great courage, uh, to unite people first to Christ and then to to one another. So let's talk discipleship and and since we're on the intercultural uh conversation, you're going to be down, and I know there's cultural distinctions between Southeast Asia and Hong Kong and China, et cetera, um, but what? But what will, as you head down to Thailand? You're going to live there, but you're going to be closer to Hong Kong. What will be the similarities to discipleship here in the United States, and what ways will discipleship following Jesus look a little different?
Speaker 3:Wow, that's a great question, you know. I don't know if it's a fair answer, I think, because at the end of the day, even though I grew up in a monoculture church, I belong in a pan-asian church currently, and so all that is say this discipleship, in my experience as an asian american, might not look too different overseas, which is very familial, very collective, right, a lot of table fellowship, and what that means is share over food and meals, and I can see that in Southeast Asia too, you know, being very common in, again, the Asian American culture. It's not fair for me to speak about the American church as I mean, again, like you said, hong Kong is going to be very different from Southeast Asia, but just like California is very different than the middle part of the United States and the East Coast, right. So all that is to say I can see that being a similarity, because we're already doing that and living that here Things might be different.
Speaker 3:I think really honestly, like any new person moving into a new place, it's to spend the first year listening and learning, because I'm sure there will be things that we're realizing in how they, the lens that they use to see scripture, will be very different, cause, even though I am bicultural and I was an immigrant, I was nine years old, I'm very Americanized, and so, all that is to say, I still read scripture through a Western lens and so learning I think that their lens will help distinguish potentially what's different in interacting with discipleship and what it means to be image barrier in Southeast Asia, because they might view scripture a little differently than we do and we have yet to learn what that is and to not fight for like this is the right way. Right, but God makes space for all of it. He works in amazing ways. So trusting that and learning that will be fun.
Speaker 2:Let's, let's go a little bit deeper. Give me an example. If you can think just off the top of your head of a story in the Bible that in Asian culture would be translated one way, understood one way, maybe a story of Jesus and in the Western church, in your experience, you've kind of learned it one another way. But we're going to focus more specifically on the one element and maybe or one character and maybe miss another one. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know if I have one that answers that specific question, but I do have an example of what I grew up learning in, again, an Asian American church. So, for example, the story of the Passover right In Exodus, the last plague, when the Israelite people were asked to slaughter and put blood on the doorpost right so that the death will pass by their firstborn, will not be killed right. So, for example, that specific story I remember learning as a kid saying that actually Chinese, specifically Chinese American, who actually? This is a great time to talk about this, because we just finished celebrating Lunar New Year or Chinese New Year, or may be exposed to it During Chinese New Year, a lot of families and churches, some Asian churches, do this.
Speaker 3:We put these black ink blessings in Chinese on red paper and we post them like the blood on a doorpost right, like that time. But these are blessings and I think it's a way of remembering the Passover, but we celebrate it in Chinese new year, right? These blessings on red paper that are literally you can Google it Chinese new year, even China. Those are not questioned. They put again horizontal on the top and vertically on the left and the right of the door. So and they are always used with black ink and red paper, which I was taught as a kid.
Speaker 3:It's like where do you see that in the Bible, the blood around the doorpost right. So that to me has always been very intriguing to read the scripture. Do that lens of culture? What we celebrate, whether Christian or not, again, it is this a Chinese New Year thing. But that was something that I learned. I was like, wow, it changes the way I even sometimes read that Exodus passage. Right, that really is a blessing that death didn't take away your firstborn right. And we're doing that and we're practicing that once a year in new year.
Speaker 3:So I again I don't think that answers your question specifically, but it's one that stood out for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're back.
Speaker 3:We'll get it cleaned up. It's okay, no worries.
Speaker 2:So let's. I love talking about diverse cultures. It's super, super fascinating the story you just told. I'd never, never heard that story before. What? What are the commonalities? So we kind of talk different, but what are the commonalities? Do you think interculturally? This is going back to your work with Link as well. This is going back to your work with link as well. How do you simply talk about discipleship, following Jesus, the way of Jesus, that really trans translates all people, groups.
Speaker 3:Yes, oh man, great question Again. I mean over and over again. I love this conversation too, you know everyone.
Speaker 2:You're easy to talk to. Stella, You're super easy to talk to. It's just super fun. So go ahead.
Speaker 3:Well, I think it's very human to desire love, acceptance, belonging, wholeness, right To have hope. And what transcends culture in every culture, I believe, and it's just human is who doesn't want to experience love and restoration and healing and have hope right and life to have purpose. And so to me, that will be, that will be a transcending message that even beyond Southeast Asia will resonate with, because we live in the world that you know Satan's going to do what Satan does and there are brokenness everywhere, regardless of where you go, in one way or another touched our lives. There's not not a single life who had not been touched by brokenness or death or losses. That is this very human to connect on every level. And so for me, the gospel speaks to the heart of that. I mean, with Easter coming right, the hope in the resurrection. I mean even my parents passing away in part of grief is holding also the joy and the hope of resurrection, and that's that's for everyone, and that's the beauty, that's the good news, that's the gospel everyone.
Speaker 2:And that's the beauty, that's the good news, that's the gospel, that's it, and man, I couldn't say it any better. This is why the gospel and message of Jesus exploded cross-culturally early on, right? It's because everybody is well acquainted with suffering in this world. You will have trouble. Take heart, have hope. I've overcome the world, I'm overcoming the world, and the more we lean into the suffering and struggle, and then the more we live immersed in the story of Jesus, the more we invite the Holy Spirit to bring revival. This is what I'm praying for today.
Speaker 2:A revival of spirit, really just a revival of hope and joy, the fruit of the spirit being present upon his people. I mean, who doesn't? Who doesn't want that? Every tribe tongue nation gathered around the throne of Jesus, which will happen on the last day, worshiping him as King and Lord, like we all suffer and that suffering leads to death and death has been defeated by, by the risen Jesus, that's it. We just tell that, in whatever cultural frame, like I want to orient myself. The Holy Spirit wants me to do this. Orient myself with anyone who confesses Jesus as Lord, offering my distinct cultural and theological traditions, which I think are helpful, with an open hand and then receiving the unique cultural and theological uniquenesses of whatever the other tradition is and receiving that with humility and then just growing more up into Jesus, who is our head. I'm praying for more theological, contextual hospitality today, which simply means this I said earlier and we're kind of joking, but I'm not really joking. I like talking to you and we're kind of joking, but I'm not really joking. Like I like talking to you, I just want to have more friends and have conversation. But what is it about our culture that leads us to say, you know what, I don't really because of our diversity. I don't really want to. I don't really want to.
Speaker 2:I think that one of the big products, outcomes of sin is division, division of ourself from ourselves. So living within with shame, identity and security struggles and then and then living with this. Don't talk to them, they're not like you, they're gonna challenge you, or or I'm, or. I'm better than thank god that I'm not like. I'm not like that person who struggles with that. And that's the heart, that's the seat, like. If we get to the heart of that, then the racism conversation, all of this is just like we're playing in a different plane. Right now we're not even talking about that. We're looking at our brother or sister creating the image of God. Off with this.
Speaker 2:But we got to get back to the basics of understanding what is a human being. Yeah, like just what makes each human individual worthy of dignity, honor and respect, an image bearer of the King. Let's just start talking more about that and then we're like we should have ample humility. Just being a human. Do you know how long it took for us to launch Stella? Longer than any other created being. Like we got to. We got to remain tethered to our mom and dad for like for a long period of time, exponentially longer than any other created being. Why, and that's to model our dependence upon the father, dependence upon the family structure, right. So to live in that interdependent posture is a posture of humility that leaves us, as a Lutheran, wide open to other other points of view, not having to win any argument. Be right, it's all. It's all gravy, man, you know, jesus has done it all, so sorry to get off on that, but anything kind of ping in your anything ping in your imagination, though, as I talk about the need for unity in the church.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think the key thing that we keep hearing is unity and not uniformity, right?
Speaker 3:To make space for the differences to, and that is, like you said, what keeps us humble. But because we're human, pride gets in the way. Right, and you mentioned death, right, but yet death to self is the only way in order to be able to hear and to listen, to make space. Even if you don't agree, right, that is still a person that god shed his blood on the cross, right. And so how do we make space to see? And I, this is one thing I always loved and learned from dominic, my brother is how's the christ in me see, the christ in you? And we can approach every single person without looking at what they believe in, what party they belong, in their skin color, all of that right, class status, all of that, but can you really see the Christ in them?
Speaker 3:I think, if we can start from there, which requires humility, right, check our pride, it has to start from there, and but that's the hard work we need to be willing to do. I think the other piece is are people willing to do the hard work? Because it is hard work. It's never meant to be easy. Nothing good is meant to be easy. But we can also choose to not do the hard work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we choose over and over again in relationship, and this is sin in us that needs to be crucified with Christ what is expedient, easy, pleasure producing in the short term, and what do you get in the long run? You get more pain, you get more suffering, you get more suffering, you get more division, like we're making. Satan leads us to make the wrong choice, entering into the difficult conversation before it gets out of hand, going just to the baseline level resisting triangles, resisting gossip.
Speaker 2:If you've got something, if you see something, say something in your brother or sister. If there's a character flaw, man, first check the plank in your own eye before you go and kind of kind of bring it there. You know so. So yeah, we're choosing. We're making the wrong choice collectively by, by prioritizing the same means, easy and comfortable, pleasure producing, rather than different, which is going to produce something beautiful in the long run. Isn't that what Jesus actually invited? There's going to be struggle, there's going to be trial. Take heart, like he was honest with his disciples, right, brutally honest, as can you. Can you remember? Remember, allow us to sit at your right and your left when you come into your kingdom.
Speaker 2:Jesus and Jesus is like I don't know if you really know what you're asking. It's not for you and you know, the place of power was the cross for you. You will walk that path, fellas, but this cross has been preordained for others. And then they learned when the Holy Spirit came, and very early on, they're willing to make that ultimate sacrifice. If there's not something you're worth, life isn't worth living, if you don't have things worth dying for.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, Right, so true, so true. And that reminds me, and that reminds me of a quote that I just love by GK Chesterton. I don't know if you know that author.
Speaker 3:And he said and I love this he said the Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. Right, it speaks to everything you just said and what Jesus said too. It's not meant to be easy, right? So the Christian idea again I'll repeat it the Christian ideal has not been found, not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. And so sometimes it's a step to reflect.
Speaker 3:I mean we want comfort, we want our comfort zone. I mean moving to Thailand is going to be a discomfort, but at the same time it's like, oh man, you know, I look at my life. Where I've grown is through suffering, is through discomfort, is through hard work. And if I want to continue to grow in this journey of sanctification, the trajectory right, not gonna be a perfect right, just like Paul wrote in Romans right, we do things we shouldn't be doing and we hate doing, and yet we end up, you know the flesh, but yet, hopefully, it's a constant struggle of war between us to do what is right in God's eyes, that's honoring to him. And so keep at the hard work, even if it's uncomfortable, and not to say comfort is a bad thing. I think God gives us blessing too, but yet I do believe in a greater calling and a greater purpose, and embrace that for yourself, if that's clear, and what God has revealed to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I commend your call to Thailand, your call to a season of Sabbath. You were saying that you're excited to. I'm putting it in my own words but maybe move, because ministry is messy ministry is hard and we need seasons of rest. I took a sabbatical about five years ago. I'll need another one in a couple of years, I'm sure. About every seven years is the rhythm A good three to six months of not doing anything For me. I'm such a.
Speaker 1:It's hard to be me sometimes.
Speaker 2:And it's hard to be everybody, but understanding the shadow sides of how God made me, because I'm so visioned, so driven, blah, blah, blah. Do another thing you know that just finding those days and seasons to shut it off, I'm really excited for you to have that. And, yeah, go ahead and speak about the need for rest.
Speaker 3:And that's the thing I think I am such a doer, and the Asian culture is all about the grind. So Asian fits right into the Western culture of the grinding culture, or maybe I shouldn't say that about all of Americans. I say maybe California, there there is that grinding culture, at least where I live. And so you're right. I mean, now that I think about it, I've been with link for again a little over seven years, so I'm giving myself a sabbatical of six, seven months before looking into what it looks like to what is the next season that God is calling us to right.
Speaker 3:Rest is so important. I am not one again that was taught to rest when I grow up in an immigrant family. You're surviving, you do what it takes to survive, for my parents to provide for three kids, I the youngest of three, and so sometimes resting can be viewed in our culture as lazy, not productive. I mean not just our culture, I think american culture too. And so to intentionally be removed from the grinding culture environment to rest is so important, and for me, being with lang for seven years also means I'm exposed to a lot of leaders who have burnt out, and that is a sad. They're doing some amazing work. They're so faithful and yet, because of the lack of rest, can they continue? And yet, what is the sustainability and longevity of that impact? Is you rest, you rest and get plugged into God. Well, hopefully, you plug into God daily right, we need that, but you rest when you rest. The very act of resting is trusting that you're not God. God doesn't need you, he can take care of his people and his mission and his church and his ministry. Right, that very act of rest is faith.
Speaker 3:And so, for me, resting is so important, but yet, hey, I'm guilty of one who doesn't practice.
Speaker 3:Practice it very often, which is why I feel like and I'm not saying you need to uproot and lift could go overseas to get rest. You can definitely find rest here in America, um, but for us, in this season, what it looks like is, uh, at least temporarily moving, uh to a different country, and so I don't know. My husband and I daily talked about and he said the same thing he worries that are we going to get bored Because we're so used to working in the grind and are we going to fall into like binging on YouTube or like reading on Reddit, instead of really what it means to intentionally Rest and take a Sabbath, because that's a very different thing. That's the other thing, though, tim, I think I don't know. I mean, how often are churches even teaching Sabbath and what it is, let alone for their leaders to model it and to take it? I know I didn't grow up in a church that has that and that models it and taught it so.
Speaker 3:I have to learn it on my own.
Speaker 2:My buddy, michael Hyden partner, pastor, friend here came a couple years ago and he just started going off. He's so kind, he's not like I can be a little bit more of a jerk, he's just, he's just really, really kind. But I think he did some Jesus jujitsu on me and on our team because he came, he came and started talking about rest and sabbath and then modeling that and, like he, I gave him, he did a retreat where he made us fill out this sheet and then he's like checking in with us to see if we are doing what we said we're going to do as it relates to. I loved it, I loved it so much. But uh, yeah, I think I think he was.
Speaker 2:He came around the back back door to just kind of disrupt and interrupt. Probably, rather than disrupt, just interrupt the pace. That is so, because it's so easy to get into a culture, especially in a Western church, as a leadership team, as a board, board directors, elders, whoever where it's. So what have you done for me lately? Look at them, they're bigger, they're doing more, their reach is whatever. Like there's no end to that.
Speaker 2:That is the path toward a miserable existence. I read the book the Gap and the Gain and I got to say things, things. I read a lot and I got to say it, just so I remember it. But we healthy people measure themselves based on how far they've come, struggles that they used to have that they don't have in the same proportion, and then they celebrate that gain rather than feeling inadequate toward the gap of the preferred future.
Speaker 1:It's not bad to have goals.
Speaker 2:It's not bad to have goals right Goals are very healthy, they move us forward. But when we stop to measure, we measure back, not forward. Any thoughts on that, Stella?
Speaker 3:That's so beautiful. I couldn't agree more. And as Link, we work with leaders. Again, many of them are in ministry, even if it's non-. That's harder to measure, but at the same time, you almost need to do the lead activities to get to that lag results, to see it faithful in the little things. Those are the quantity, what that we measure and count, which matters in order to see and capture the stories and the fruit that comes later. Right? So, yeah, I couldn't. I couldn't agree more. And and how do you redefine what is success? What do you measure? And a lot of times, yeah, you reflect and you celebrate and we're a bunch of Marthas Not that Martha is bad, but how do we learn to be Mary every now and then, because we need both Mary and Martha.
Speaker 2:You do. You need the Mary and Martha in me in all of us, you know.
Speaker 2:That appropriate proportion of sitting at the feet of Jesus. One thing is needed I want to sit at Jesus' feet and then I'm going to do ministry out of the overflow that the Holy Spirit provides. So let's talk about you're. You're a healthy human, You're a happy human. You are, and people want to be around you. I know you're an awesome leader. I talk about the rhythms of the leader a lot. So the habits of the leader. What are some of your healthy habits in the morning? Per se, I'm a big morning guy. Talk about morning habits just a little bit. What's fueling you for a day in relationship and ministry? What's fueling you for a day in relationship and ministry?
Speaker 3:Yeah, for me I've gotten. Every season is different, but I have been for years now in a season where I'm getting older. So talk about physically healthy. I need to stretch when I wake up to start my day, but as I stretch I listen to this app, Not true? That's also a recommendation from Dominic Giving a lot of plugs today doing this call let's Seal 365. I don't know if you're familiar with that.
Speaker 2:It's a prayer app.
Speaker 3:It reads scripture and it helps you meditate, so just to kind of set the tone, and that's normally the length of that, it's like my stretching time, and then I read my Bible in the morning. I'm currently in the book of Romans, which I always love, and so being in scripture, doing that app at least every morning, helps set the day, the tone for the day. I don't do this other practice as often, but I've been equipped to do the examine of consciousness, I think is what it's called, where you practice the five things, yeah, and so I try to do that at night of review the day, right, where god has worked, um, where things I need to just repent of. Again. I'm not as disciplined with that thing I am with the, with the mornings, uh, disciplines, but for me that's what's been really, really helpful.
Speaker 3:And of course you know, additionally, I can't help it my husband is so jealous sometimes because you know he works at the bank. He said you know you're always surrounded by like pastors and leaders who are visionaries and have like these amazing stories, so it's not hard for you to constantly hear what God is doing, to kind of stay on track, right, I'm like you know you're not wrong. You know, I'm constantly being reminded by stories when I meet with leaders. How faithful does God is right, so yeah, so that helps a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what I hear is gratitude, just joy. Gratitude fuels creativity. It moves us from our fight and flight responses to our prefrontal cortex where we live in reciprocity with others, reciprocal, mutually beneficial relationships, and then we have expansive thinking to see what. God is doing and what God could do in the future. That's such a beautiful thing. I'm always interested in diet too. Talk about the need for what we put into our bodies yeah, we've never talked about this. Do you talk about nutrition? Care about nutrition much I I should.
Speaker 3:I should if I don't enough tim. I'm sure we are social media friends and you know I'm a foodie you might see all sorts of unhealthy food that I post because, again, so much of our community is table fellowship.
Speaker 3:Right, it's around food. I mean Jesus and his disciples always when is his teaching? Not around food? Right? So, and we love good food and so, but, yeah, the reality of just even what I would inherit from my parents of diabetes and cholesterol and all of that, and as I get older I do need to recognize that what I put in is it's very important. So now, how, how, how disciplined and I'm in practicing that, sometimes not very disciplined, but I do try. So the good thing is my, my husband loves working out, so he keeps me accountable. So, again, being part of a community where you have accountability helps a lot.
Speaker 3:Right, not to say good food is bad, it's a good blessing. But everything in portion, right, just don't overdo a lot of things. And although maybe I have more cheat days than most people, but also stay active. I swim a lot Nice, I know I probably don't swim enough with the foods that I consume. I used to do I used to hit workout, which is kind of like CrossFit, but not CrossFit. Yeah, to justify right, but at the same time, at the end of the day I feel like to feel balanced is important.
Speaker 1:There are a lot of.
Speaker 3:I think one of this too, tim. The other thing about going to Southeast Asia is, I feel like, talk about food and what you put in your body. The food portion is way less than America. America's accessibility of fast food is crazy. That's not like that overseas. So there's also a desire of not just for rest mental health, spiritual health but also physical health, to be out more like hiking, camping. Whatever, their portion is not going to be as much. Their food is probably more, maybe farm to table right, because that's more accessible.
Speaker 3:So hopefully, even being able to eat healthier, being on a healthier exercise and activity I mean you can hold me accountable to this, tim, because I know from your post you and your wife I mean your family seems very active. What does it mean to really honor this temple right that God has called us to serve and be healthy? Can't keep serving if we're not healthy. So again, portion. I want to admit I'm a foodie. I eat all sorts of junk. Can I do better? Yes, but I justify it by well, at least I eat junk with other people and we have some great conversation spiritual food spiritual food.
Speaker 2:The funny thing about the brain is your perspective toward what you eat and who you eat with actually changes the way the food good or bad you know, even thinking even thinking that you know what I'm in relationship with people. I'm not going to live by shame. I'm eating this as cheating, whatever. Even that posture toward the food changes the way our body processes the food.
Speaker 3:Isn't that?
Speaker 2:nuts. There's a lot of research out there about that, so we should eat as clean as we possibly can 80-20. And when you're in the 20, don't live with shame.
Speaker 2:Hopefully you're not binge eating. Hopefully you're eating in community. Here's like if I could pray, how many can I limit it to two? I'll try to limit it to no three. I can't limit it to two. I'll try to limit it to no three. I can't limit it to two. So three things more water. Start the day with more water. Two. Two is that we explore intermittent fasting.
Speaker 1:I only eat pretty much. I'm not legalistic, yeah.
Speaker 2:But 1130 noon to six, 630. And then it's only, it's only water. You know I'll have talk about alcohol at night, I'll have a drink now and then, and then you know whatever, but just all in moderation, right, and then. And then, if we could, if we could just move a little bit more. And you talk about stretching and resistance training. I'm on a kick right now. With the older we get, the more we think we shouldn't lift and like I'm going to call out.
Speaker 2:You called out you called out my, uh, your, your buddy, Dom. I'll call out my dad, my dad, he's. He's still a ministry leader. But, dad, you got to throw around more weight, bro, Don't put your, don't put on weight, but just throw around more weight. Our bodies are meant for more, more resistance and work working out. Uh, not only it works out the brain, but we put ourselves in uncomfortable positions physically.
Speaker 2:We're holistic we're not gnostics, right, so we put, we put ourselves in uncomfortable positions and and that prepares us for inevitable uncomfortable relationship positions as as well. So we're all of one thing heart, body, mind, body, mind, heart, heart, body, mind, spirit. This has been so much fun, stella, uh, I, we're going to have to talk again, so drop me a line in like six months or so as you get out, if you're, we can find some time. I know the time difference is a real, a real thing. Um, maybe last question what is most exciting? You've talked about a lot of things as you head to to thailand, but most exciting about the one thing you're hoping jesus does in you, as you, as you make this transition that's good.
Speaker 3:I I don't know if I can identify one, maybe two, if I'm allowed to just say it really you're allowed, you're allowed, oh yeah I think, I think one my desire to honor, to remember, honor my parents.
Speaker 3:I I'm very looking forward to that. What stories would I hear from my relatives? That's, that's one I am really excited about how god is going to reveal, even through generations, how he's been working right. Uh. And then second man, just with my age and being in full-time ministry I mean Link was it. My full-time ministry experience has only been in and through Link, which has only been seven years, right. So I'm actually excited to kind of be open and seeing what God will reveal in terms of what the next season is. Where would that be? What would that be? And again, not just again me, but like for our family, for both my husband and I, and so leaving that very open, holding it very loosely to try not to have crazy specific expectations, but I am excited to kind of see what God will reveal.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. I'm excited for you, for that journey. If people want to connect with you, stella, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Man, I'm all over social media, so if they want to find me on Facebook or Instagram, email um would be easy. So yeah, I mean I don't have any. I don't have my own website or anything. I don't write books.
Speaker 2:You just lead. You just lead and love people really, really well, and I know that influence. Through a season of sabbatical rest, that influence will continue, just in a different way. But I'm grateful to have been in the Pacific Southwest district with you and to observe all the beautiful things that the Lord has brought to you. And the journey is just beginning.
Speaker 2:The journey is actually infinite, infinite by the way growing up into him, who is our head for time and eternity. This is the American Reformation podcast. This is Stella Yao Locke, who is on a adventurous journey of honor and great, great joy and discovery. And I'm better because you're my friend, stella.
Speaker 3:Thanks for being my friend. Thank you for being my friend, and brother too, tim, thank you for this Awesome.
Speaker 2:We'll be back next week with another episode of American Reformation. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Thanks, Stella.
Speaker 3:Thank you.