When the soul craves a deeper, more meaningful connection with its faith, where does one turn? This week, my father-in-law, Reverend John Koczman, joins me for an earnest conversation that goes to the heart of the American Christian church's need for reformation. As we sit down, we grapple with the question of how to cultivate genuine discipleship and communicate the Gospel in a way that touches the personal narratives of each believer. Reverend Koczman, with his decades of experience and mentorship, including his guidance in my own ministry, illuminates the path towards a collaborative, rather than competitive, church culture—a beacon of unity and support among leaders of faith.
Our dialogue journeys through the evolution of the church's mission, highlighting the transition from its early, impassioned evangelism to today's more doctrinal focus, and the longing to return to the Missio Dei’s alignment with God's plans for humanity. The two-edged sword of technology’s role in this transformation is laid bare, as we ponder its powers for connection and its potential for distraction. Optimism prevails, however, as we envision the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod reclaiming its theological depth to leave a renewed footprint on the world.
Lastly, we unwrap the essence of authenticity in pastoral leadership, revealing the importance of being transparent shepherds who lead by example in an increasingly digital landscape. The episode culminates in the life-affirming power of words of blessing and encouragement, drawing analogies to the familial and ecclesiastical realms. Reverend Koczman's gentle wisdom reminds us all of the enduring strength found in simple acts such as sharing a coffee and prayer. Join us for this heartfelt exploration, where we seek to reignite the enduring flame of faith through encouragement, love, and servant leadership.
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When the soul craves a deeper, more meaningful connection with its faith, where does one turn? This week, my father-in-law, Reverend John Koczman, joins me for an earnest conversation that goes to the heart of the American Christian church's need for reformation. As we sit down, we grapple with the question of how to cultivate genuine discipleship and communicate the Gospel in a way that touches the personal narratives of each believer. Reverend Koczman, with his decades of experience and mentorship, including his guidance in my own ministry, illuminates the path towards a collaborative, rather than competitive, church culture—a beacon of unity and support among leaders of faith.
Our dialogue journeys through the evolution of the church's mission, highlighting the transition from its early, impassioned evangelism to today's more doctrinal focus, and the longing to return to the Missio Dei’s alignment with God's plans for humanity. The two-edged sword of technology’s role in this transformation is laid bare, as we ponder its powers for connection and its potential for distraction. Optimism prevails, however, as we envision the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod reclaiming its theological depth to leave a renewed footprint on the world.
Lastly, we unwrap the essence of authenticity in pastoral leadership, revealing the importance of being transparent shepherds who lead by example in an increasingly digital landscape. The episode culminates in the life-affirming power of words of blessing and encouragement, drawing analogies to the familial and ecclesiastical realms. Reverend Koczman's gentle wisdom reminds us all of the enduring strength found in simple acts such as sharing a coffee and prayer. Join us for this heartfelt exploration, where we seek to reignite the enduring flame of faith through encouragement, love, and servant leadership.
JOIN OUR NEW ONLINE LEARNING PLATFORM!
ENTER CODE - 75ULC2023 for 75% off!
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray, wherever you're taking this in, the joy of the Lord is your strength and that you're buckled up with me to learn today from my father-in-law yes, the one and only Reverend John Kosman. Now, before I get going here, I got to tell you who this man is to me. Not only is he an awesome pastor, multi-multi-decade maybe too many multis in there, john, sorry about that.
Speaker 2:But, multi-decade pastor, but he was also my vicarage supervisor at Grace Lutheran in Winter Haven, florida. My first Word and Sacrament experiences were under John's tutelage and, more than that, he raised an awesome daughter who is my wife, is one and only daughter who he. Graciously she's always your little girl and I'm grateful you released her to be my awesome, awesome wife and mother of three kids. So how are you doing today, john? I'm doing great. Thanks Great to be with you, tim. Yeah, this is gonna be fun. So kind of standard opening question for the American Reformation podcast how are, as you look at the wider landscape of the church and you've served in a number of different congregations, different contexts, from the Midwest to Texas, to Florida, california, up to Oregon and now right here in the great state of Arizona at Trinity and Fountain Hills as you've looked at the wider landscape of the church, lutheran and beyond, how are you praying for reformation, john?
Speaker 3:Oh man, I really think that this is the prime time for the church to go forward. As I look at the world today, there is a cry for authentic, passionate followers of Jesus Christ to get out there and proclaim the gospel, and I think they're all done hearing from us on things that are more of the institutional church Not that those things aren't important but people want to know how does this relate to my life and how does this impact me and my life situation? So I think we have opportunities now to speak, if we will just be bold enough to be transparent and authentic and trust that God can work through our stories and into the stories of other people. I think that's where we're headed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I agree. Do you think, as we look at the young people and I got three teenagers myself what is your hope? Give me three adjectives that you hope they would say about Jesus followers. You gave a few authentic humble. Any others that you yeah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think just that we are caring and that we bring a message of hope and encouragement. I mean, encouragement is a huge part of my ministry and who I am, whether I'm encouraging pastors or encouraging the laity. I think we need to know and understand and believe that Jesus Christ is real, alive and active today and wants to empower his church to do so much more than we're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree. So you use the word encourage, encourager, and that's who I've known you to be in so many ways for me, your extended family, your grandkids, you are an encourager. How did the Lord kind of work that encouragement bone, if you will, into your body just to become so central? Because this world is discouraging. If you have a pulse this is what my dad has said over the years you need encouragement because there's so much discouragement out in the world. Tell a little bit of the story of the origin of encouragement being even the center point of your ministry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it all began with kind of strange enough late night conversations with my mom, who really mentored me and helped me to get out of the negative, cynical look at the world and in ministry.
Speaker 3:It was reading a book called Highly Effective People in what they Do and I guess I grasped hold of what Stephen Covey said when he said I will be a success when I help other people become successful, and so I began to change the way that I looked, and it wasn't about what did I do or or what have I accomplished, but it was the joy and the privilege of having you know, young men like you as a vicar, others that I've had the opportunity to work with and to say I'm going to pour myself into other people, and when I do that, I'm going to pour myself into other people, and when I do that, I'm going to actually find that my life is blessed. That's really what God has called me to do. Being a parent was a natural thing. You know, watching my kids far exceed my accomplishments in athletics and in academics and realizing that's how I mark my life as being meaningful, and so that gift of encouragement I found, wow, that's what I can give, that's what I can offer.
Speaker 2:Well, you've done it and I think it's the key reason why you've stayed joyful over the years, because ministry is very, very hard. One of the things let's go down this rabbit trail a little bit. One of the things that, because I've been a pastor now 15 years, there can be this component in the American church, the United States of America church, that we compete with other churches, we compare ourselves as pastors and we may pridefully puff ourselves up my church is better than whatever. Or, on the other end, we live with shame and guilt and we may lead out of some radical insecurities. Pride that is really masking our insecurities. And you know I've done a lot of work on traits of pastors who collaborate and work together, want to encourage one another. What is it about the American church, especially pastors that want to compete with one another? I think it's pretty toxic, especially the mission of Jesus and reaching those that don't know him. Any thoughts there, john, you know absolutely.
Speaker 3:I think we're in the wrong mode. We're in that mode of comparison and so we start comparing with one another. Well, what are your nickels and noses? Where are you at in ministry that way? What programs do you have? Instead of realizing you know what. We're on the same team and so when you succeed, I succeed, and if I succeed, I hope that's a blessing to you.
Speaker 3:I think if we were able to come away with more of a team attitude I know that not every pastor out there agrees with me in the way I do ministry, but I don't look at that as a threat. I look at that as a threat. I look at that as a way to help me to become a better pastor, and what I want to do is help them to become the best pastor they can. So I see it as a team and it's one of my passions for the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. I love this church.
Speaker 3:I've invested over 40 years in this church as a pastor, and it's not because I didn't have anything else to do or I didn't have any other options. It's because I truly believe in this church, and the only thing that wounds me is when we get into these false dichotomies. We think well, I've got to be either theologically accurate or I've got to be missional, and for me the two are the same. You can't be one without the other. And I think the more we come together, collaborating as a team and helping one another, that's when we make great strides forward for the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's my goal, that's my passion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, that is the Jesus way. He who had every right to take the high place, humbled himself to the point of death and took the low place and invited us into the life which is truly life, which is centered in Christ and community. If more leaders and pastors would embrace that call that my brother down the road is a partner in the gospel with me. That's how the apostle Paul approached it. These were not competitors. Maybe there's things we can learn from one another. And you bring out the confessional mission divide. There's no divide. They're two sides of the same coin and some there may just be a bent that some pastors simply like reading. You know ancient church fathers more than others do, and some of us are maybe more inclined to look at some of the more modern progressive. You know leadership development trends. You know leadership development trends. You know, and if I go too far out on that end, I'm going to probably move toward heresy and doing something and behaving in a way that's counter to Christ and putting methods in the way of the simplicity of following Jesus and inviting others to do so and gathering together around word and sacrament, like just let's hang around the guts and the core and recognize that we've got different perspectives.
Speaker 2:I was just talking to a brother, peyton Jones, on a podcast about apest and apostle, prophet, evangelist, and then shepherd, teacher, these different gifts. But he was saying their functions of the pastoral ministry, really their functions that have been given first and foremost to the church. But there's still one office, the church of holy ministry, and the church calls very unique men who may have some of the functions of those kind of five roles, if you will, or functions that you find in Ephesians, chapter four. And I don't think we do, I don't think we speak well of one another who have these different gifts. We may even demonize them as something other than me and I think it's really hampering the mission of Jesus in our church body. So anything more to say to the diversity of gifts needed our church body. So anything more to say to the diversity of gifts needed, especially amongst leaders and pastors.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you nailed it there. What we need to do is celebrate one another, not critique one another, but to celebrate and draw from. And if there's anything I can do to help another brother to be a better pastor, I'm right there. Just let me know what I can do. How can I pray for you, how can I help you, how can I encourage you? And then I hope they also realize that, hey, I'm not so set in my way.
Speaker 3:I've been doing this for a long time, but I'm still ready to grow and I'm still ready to learn new things and to become more effective with the gospel. So I think that's important. I'll even cross over to another area. I try to encourage my pastor friends in the community who are not Missouri Synod Lutherans. Now, I don't expect them to be a Lutheran and they don't expect me to be anything else, but I want them to be the best at what they do and hopefully I want them to draw the best in me. And where we can go forward with all focus on the gospel of Jesus Christ, I think that's where we need to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree for sure. Anybody that says Jesus is Lord, you're my brother, you're my sister in Christ and your congregation is bringing. We may differ on some things theologically, and some things are pretty significant theologically, but I think it's a lot about the way we present ourselves then to the wider community. Is the church in Fountain Hills, the church in Gilbert, anybody who says Jesus is Lord, centered in the scriptures? Are we known for love and encouragement, or competition and scarcity? Is it really? Is it abundance or is it scarcity? And sometimes the church can lead from a place of scarcity and that makes the heart of Jesus sad. So let's go. You said four decades. That's a long time, and there's so many shifts that have taken place since you were ordained. What? 1982, something like that, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 83.
Speaker 2:that right, yeah, 83, 80, 83. Oh, did I say 90? Yeah, okay, yeah, 1983, um, your daughter alexa, my wife, born on your vicarage, and and why should we say that?
Speaker 1:but the year yes the year before you were uh, ordained.
Speaker 2:So what are the three? And maybe just for summary's sake, keep it kind of simple. As you look at how being a pastor has changed, are there three big shifts that have changed in your four decades, plus now, of leading in the local church?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know it all started. I had the honor and the privilege of vicaring under Dr Will Sontz and you know I just love him to pieces. He's a great guy, a great mentor. Will Sons and you know I just love him to pieces. He's a great guy, a great mentor. But what he gave to me was the picture that a man can be theologically conservative and Dr Sons theologically conservative he was a Wyoming district president when I vicaried under him but at the same time be very loving and compassionate, very encouraging and passionate about the gospel. And I think for me that was a huge shift that took place before I even graduated from the seminary, before I even was ordained was to learn that I could be both conservative theologically and also be very passionate about loving people in Christ.
Speaker 3:When I first came out of the seminar, I used to tell people there's only three things that I want to do. Number one I want to love Jesus Christ with my whole heart, strength, everything that I have, and I want to learn to love God's people. You know, they're not the problem, they're not the difficulty, they're the opportunity. And my third one was very simple Don't do anything to screw up. And it's so important. I think so many people just lose sight of those first two and they end up finding different ways to go.
Speaker 3:But as I've watched the church over my time, I guess one of the things that breaks my heart is the loss of the passion for sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I don't mean that in a didactic way, but in a way in which we seek to change and transform lives. When I first started out, my first call into a large church was as the pastor of evangelism and education, and both of those are my passions, and so I loved it. And we had guys like Leroy Bezenthal and we had men that just had a passion for sharing the gospel. And now I look at the church and I just don't see that. I see we're more of a debating church, more of a positioning church, and for me that's my greatest sadness is that we've lost that passion to see lives impacted and changed and people transformed by the gospel.
Speaker 2:So that's where I'm at. Yeah, no, that is an unfortunate shift and for those of you who are outside the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, I think that you're specifically speaking into challenging appropriately where doctrine and or practice may err, leading people further away from the gospel, but there's this underlying trust that's there. I'll name the LCMC, our Lutheran Brothers and Sisters in the LCMC, the Lutheran Church and Mission, and there's some Anglican movements right now that are really, really exploding. Church planning is taking place. So I rejoice. I rejoice in that, that there's trust, you know, and we've got 200, some years of history in the LCMS and I'm praying that leaders keep the main thing.
Speaker 2:The main thing. When you get off of the mission of God to seek and to save the lost myself included I was lost and now I've been found when the Missio Dei is not at the center point of the story in which we tell, we end up orienting around smaller stories. There's a big story of God seeking to get all of his kids back through word and sacrament the word that kills, the word that makes alive, and then the sacraments. The baptism is our evangelical fuel. Could we see more adult baptisms right now? That's a sign of a healthy church. Right, more people are coming in, people are hearing the gospel, they're being baptized and then they're being reminded consistently that their sins are forgiven. They're a wretch, they're a sinner through and through, in need of the table of the Lord to be reminded of the goodness and grace of God in a tangible way through his very body and blood, for the forgiveness of sins. Like. Let's keep the main thing, the main thing. Anything more to add to that John?
Speaker 3:You know I hope the message comes across that I'm very positive and optimistic. I mean, I'm 71 years old. I have no desire to retire. It's because I believe that there is a great challenge before us. And here's the word of encouragement I have, I think the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Obviously, I've poured my life into it. I think we are blessed with some of the greatest theology and some of the greatest doctrine of any church on the face of this earth. And if we would return to the passion of people like Dr Meyer, I mean think of this we had the number one Christian media in the world for the longest period. I mean if we would return to that passion and take our theology, take our rich tradition and theology and permeate into the world with love and passion and excitement, I think the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod can once again be the church that turns this world upside down. That's, that's my hope. That's my hope, that's my dream, and I'm going to go to my grave working for that and encouraging others to be a part of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen. So when we think shifts, how has technology shifted, pastoral ministry, over your four decades? You just mentioned technology. How have you seen it be used, and maybe even misused, and maybe we misappropriate the use of technology. Any thoughts there around the shift of tech? Oh, huge.
Speaker 3:So when I began my ministry, there was no cell phones, there was no personal computers, there was no internet, obviously. So now that I see that those are great opportunities to permeate the gospel, the problem is when we get distracted from the gospel and we get on those tangents and we get into that opportunity of confrontation instead of bringing the message. But it's good and it's bad, because we've been able to permeate the gospel greater than ever before. But at the same time, we use technology as a way of communicating the gospel, and I think part of it is. We need to find out OK, as I use that technology, am I coming across authentic? Am I coming across transparent?
Speaker 3:I don't want to put on a show across transparent. I don't want to put on a show and so yet I want quality. But I don't want it to be a show. I want it to be a way of letting people into my heart and coming inside of me and seeing me with my flaws, with the places I've been blessed to succeed. And so I think, if we see it as a window instead of you know some other thing, it's a way for people to come in and to be invited in, and I think that's what we got to work at trying to find ways to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, couldn't agree more. My prayer is that technology is viewed as a catalyst rather than fanning into flame. Consumer Christianity and where we have leaders like this is one of the struggles for me in doing this podcast and being like my Enneagram is is kind of performer and I can, you know, tell another story and preach another sermon, do another podcast, right, all these? I got on my a mic, the metaphor of a mic kind of being in front of my face. It feels like that's, that's kind of my life, but that's not. That's not shepherding. I mean it's. It's maybe catalyzing, it's maybe challenging, um, but people need to be shepherded. The church that doesn't shepherd. And I can't shepherd 2,000 people, let alone deeply 50, 60 people. I can only do a handful, my family being the primary shepherd community that I get to steward.
Speaker 2:Well, but too often pastors have been put, I think inappropriately, on pedestals and expected to be the, not just the purveyor of religious services. People wouldn't use those words, but when you talk consumer Christianity, that's what it is. Preach another sermon. I just walked out yesterday. I don't like this, janet. I don't know if you've ever I'm sure you've heard this, but this sweet brother in Christ said man, my wife. My wife just said that was the best sermon. You've heard this. But this sweet brother in Christ said, man, my wife, my wife just said that was the best sermon you've ever preached. I'm like you know, thank you.
Speaker 2:But then it's like there's just how do you even grade the word? You're like you gotta know, a few months ago that was a C plus, you know, now it's a, now it's an A. The best thing ever, like all it is, is we just want people to fall more and more in love with Jesus. We're just modeling talking about Jesus so that other people in their homes and out in their vocations would talk about Jesus, that's it. And bringing the forgiveness of sins so that they would offer the forgiveness of sins. We're just modeling in the liturgy what we hope other people would take in, but too often people just stay consumers rather than contributors and partners. Are there any invitations, next steps for pastors who feel like man I totally am in a world where people are consuming rather than contributing. Any words of wisdom there, john?
Speaker 3:You know I would say this so as a lamb looks to its shepherd, I'm not looking to my shepherd to be impressed by how smart he is or how good, how well he's dressed. No, I want to know does he love me? Does he care about me? Is he real? Can he help me to, to, to grow and to become more? And I think that same thing is true. And, tim, god has blessed you with incredible wisdom. But where you have an opportunity to touch people is when they get to know you. They get to know your soul, they get to know your passions, they get to know who you are, and so I would encourage pastors be real to your people, be their shepherd, in the sense of the one who passionately loves them. That's what I meant when I said.
Speaker 3:Loving God's people is the first step in terms of what I want to be as a pastor. I want them to know I care about them. Not I care about what grade they get, not that I care about how successful they are, but I care about them, who they are, what their needs are, what their hunger is, what their thirst is, and if they know that's why I'm there, that's what I'm all about, then I think that's key, and to do that we have to let people in and we have to be authentic, because if we let them in, what are they going to find there? I better have a strong personal relationship with my Lord and Savior, jesus Christ. I have to have a faith that depends upon him so that I can teach other people to depend upon him. If they think I have all the answers and I'm smart and I'm slick, that might be impressive, but it doesn't help them. It doesn't change their heart.
Speaker 3:I think, as pastors, we need to step away from ourselves and say that our goal is to serve God's people and to help them become everything that they can be. And I can only do that not from pontificating, not from being the expert, but from getting with them, to sit beside them. I love the way that Jesus got down on the ground next to the woman who was caught in adultery, and they didn't just blow away the adultery and say, well, wasn't that big of a deal? No, it was a big deal. But he got down there on her level and said neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more. He wasn't saying this is how you got to live. He was saying this is how level and said neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more. He wasn't saying this is how you got to live. He was saying this is how you get to live, and I think we as pastors need to be able to demonstrate we have been set free by Christ and that's what I want for you.
Speaker 1:I want you to be set free too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so good. We love the work of Christ. We talk about the work of Christ all the time his fulfilling of the law, his death, his resurrection, his ascension, his reign over all things. Very true, we talk about the words of Jesus. His word gives us life, and yet for leaders to really holistically experience change, it's the work and the word and the way of Jesus. And the way of Jesus was that he was available for people.
Speaker 2:I think I've been overwhelmed by the energy yeah, that's probably Holy Spirit inspired energy of Jesus in Matthew's gospel. I've summarized the first 10, 12 chapters a number of different times. And from the Sermon on the Mount, from Jesus' baptism to his temptation, to the Sermon on the Mount, the Sermon on the Mount appears to be mid-morning probably, appears to be mid-morning probably. And then it says, as he comes down the mountain, immediately there's this kind of Mark's gospel hits on immediacy. Well, matthew's does too, especially here in this day. This is all one day. He just preaches this message which gives a re-understanding of the Decalogue the law, this elevation of the law, how we're all under it, right, but what blessing really looks like the humble me, et cetera, right, and the beatitude is so good, and then he lives it out.
Speaker 2:He touches the leper, cleanses the leper, takes their leprosy right, and then the centurion comes. These are both outsiders in their culture, right? The centurion comes with a servant who is ill and Jesus, just at your word, I trust your word, okay, be healed. The servant is healed and then, the same day he heals, peter's mother-in-law comes into the house Remember this story. She starts to serve and then it says and into the evening they are bringing all of the sick to Jesus. He might touch them and heal them. Jesus shows compassion over the top compassion. And could pastors be that available for people Like Holy Spirit? Whoever it is that you bring into my day, I want to be the aroma of Christ for them. I want the touch of your Holy Spirit to heal their wounds, maybe even physically heal. You can do that, lord Jesus, and to have the energy to do that. So, as I talk about the way of Jesus there, just the availability, any words of wisdom about setting up space and rhythm for being available? John?
Speaker 3:Yeah, what our people need to know is they don't need us to tell them how to live. They need us to show them how to live. They need us to show them how to live, and so we need to demonstrate that. We need to show that by. This is where I struggle. This is what I've worked through, this is where God has taken me, this is where God has healed me, this is where God has strengthened me.
Speaker 3:I think I realized that yesterday just in teaching a Bible study. It's frightening, even for a guy my age, because I can't blow smoke in people's faces. This isn't about a show, and so when I demonstrate my woundedness and when I demonstrate my hunger and thirst for the Lord, I'm very vulnerable, and I think a lot of us are afraid to be vulnerable, as if somehow we're going to be abandoned by Christ or we're going to be abandoned by the people who have come to hear us, and this is simply not true. Look at Paul with Timothy, you know. I mean, he passionately cared about Timothy and he talked about those things that would help Timothy be a better, godly person, and I think that's what our people are looking for for us.
Speaker 3:They're saying, Pastor, don't just tell me what to do. Show me how you struggled, show me how you got there, how did you find that way through the wilderness, how did you struggle and heal and how did you learn how to forgive people that hurt you. And how did you do that? And it's painful, because I have to recognize my own imperfection. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Are the horns rehearsing outside your office there?
Speaker 3:They are. They're practicing, getting ready for Easter. Sorry about that, no, no, it's awesome.
Speaker 2:Holy Spirit horns baby Getting ready to blow the roof off in celebration of the risen one, jesus. So you talk about vulnerability and resilience. I think is a synonym there to say I was beat, but I wasn't eternally broken. I have some wounds and now I'm a wounded healer. So what did God teach you? I mean 40, some years. You've seen stuff, you've experienced stuff. What has God taught you through vulnerable suffering?
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's taught me that I'm not a big deal, that he's a big deal and what I go through is as his servant. I remember when I was going to leave teaching and coaching and go into the ministry and I told my mom, I said, mom, I'm going to go to the seminary, god is calling me into the ministry. And she started crying and I thought, oh my goodness, she's so proud of me. This is really cool, right? And I said. I looked at her and said, mom, you know I appreciate those tears. And she goes oh, johnny, you don't understand.
Speaker 3:These tears are because I know if God is going to use you greatly, he's going to wound you deeply, because that's how God works and that's what God does. And you're going to become real and you're going to become authentic. And it's not about spit and polish and all that type of thing, it's about being real. And so that's how my very beginning was to know that being a pastor doesn't put me above people, it puts me right there in the middle of them. Isn't that what God demonstrated when he sent Jesus into this world? He didn't send him to be a leader, he didn't send him to be the person who just sat above the crowd but to be in the crowd and to be amongst the crowd, and I can't imagine what it must have been like to watch him navigate, to hear him deal with those who were critical of him, to those who attacked him, and to see that he never attacked back and he taught us how to how to love even others who don't love us.
Speaker 3:I mean that whole thing about turning the other cheek. Are you kidding me, god? That doesn't work here so well. Yes, it does. Turning the other cheek Are you kidding me, god? That doesn't work here so well? Yes, it does. Yeah, it does, Because it's God's way. So I think that's what it's all about Just learning, learning to love Jesus and want to be like Jesus. I know that's so simplistic, but I really think that's where the world is right now. They want a simpler gospel that boils down to just show me Jesus, show me God, show me his love, show me his care and teach me how to do that for others. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That is the daily death to self and the daily resurrection to the new man, the new woman in Christ. I no longer live Now. Christ lives in me and he is, you said, he's not necessarily a leader and he's the best example of what just a human can be for us, perfectly fulfilling the law. So he is our leader and Lord, but he's more than that. There's an intimacy with Christ, right, he knows me. He knows me. He knows all the parts of me. He knows the shadow sides, he knows my faulty motivation, he knows all the darkness and yet he loves me.
Speaker 2:He calls me his child and nothing can change that declaration, the declaration of his love over me. He calls me his child and nothing can change that declaration, the declaration of his love over me. I'm a friend of God in Christ. That is remarkable, right, the God of the universe spoke everything we see and don't see into existence, made himself flesh and made himself vulnerable. So he would know, deeply know, all of the suffering and temptations and struggles that we know, and he carries us. He carries us. He's so, so near for those who have the eyes of faith to see, and he's most especially near in suffering.
Speaker 3:And he did teach us true leadership, but that true leadership was in serving, and I remember a lesson that I learned as I, as I serve in a congregation. As a leader, I serve. I lead best when I help them take down tables and put away chairs. I lead best when I'm sweeping the floor and I'm helping them, not when I'm telling them what to do. So a true leader is a servant of people. So I don't mean that to be a negative connotation, but it's the leaders who try to be above their people. That's not what they need. They need people to live with them, and that servant leadership of Jesus turned everything upside down.
Speaker 2:That's so good. Last question here, I think the core of what makes you unique is your fierce love, uh, your fierce love found in Christ, and, um, your fierce love and loyalty to, to family. Let's just talk family really quick. Uh, and it didn't have to be quick, we got time. Why is family so important to you?
Speaker 3:I think family is to me, my lifeblood. I remember once I was teaching a Bible study class to a group of ladies and I said you know, in my life God comes first, my family comes second, my church comes third. And one lady protested and I thought, oh my goodness, my goodness, and I didn't want to take it as an assault. I wanted to understand why did that bother her? I said what would you think the order should be? It should be God first, then the church, then your family. And just by the Spirit's prompting, I asked her. I said you know, there sounds like that's a pretty passionate thing for you. What did your dad do for a living? A pretty passionate thing for you. What did your dad do for a living? She said he was a pastor. Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:And suddenly I realized see, my children and my kids and my wife need to know that they are only second to Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3:And I want the church to know that it doesn't weaken me as a pastor to be passionately in love with my family. It strengthens me as a pastor, it makes me a better pastor, it makes me a better servant. To be able to do that, and I need to invest in my children, now my grandchildren, so that they can far surpass me, so that they can go and make a great impact in the world. And so it is the greatest privilege that I've ever had to be a family member, to be in a family to serve and to love. And you know, tim, I don't even like calling you my son-in-law, I like just calling you my son, but not I don't want to take that away from your dad, but it's because I love you with that kind of a passion and and it's it's what makes me, it's it's who I am, I. I think God just made me that way. I didn't come up with some great design, and he just gave me that great love.
Speaker 2:So good. I love you too. You're amazing as it relates to family. You had us over and you're. You know I pray you have two, three, four more decades on planet earth, this side of eternity. We'll see what the Lord has in store for you. But I, we were over for dinner a couple months ago now and the Lord kind of put, maybe speaking a word of wisdom, slash blessing over over us. Um, do you remember that? Yeah, so what? What was that all about? Like? I think a lot of people may kind of think a word of blessing. I don't, I don't know, but I think there's a strong role for the head of a house and multiple, multiple houses now, with kids and grandkids for you to take that kind of mantle of leadership and speak words over your kids and your, your grandkids, your wife and things. So just talk about the necessity of a word of blessing.
Speaker 3:I think it is so important and it goes all the way back in the Old Testament times as well, when fathers would speak a blessing over their children and what it was is an empowerment to say that you are my pride and my joy and you are the ones that I've invested myself in. To speak a word of blessing is a word of empowerment, and I think that comes obviously in family. It better begin there, but it also needs to be in the church as well. I remember a pastor who mentored me once said you know, my greatest goal would be that I could leave the church and move on to something else, and they wouldn't even notice I was gone for six months and I thought what a strange thing to say. But then I understood what he was saying. What he's saying is I don't want to create a vacuum when I'm gone. I want to fill that spot so that it is so full and people are living so fully that it isn't about me, it's about them being whom God created them to be and going forward.
Speaker 2:That's it. That's it. Well, what I've learned from you over the years is word and I've learned this from you and from my dad just so remarkably blessed and that's not a trite thing, that's a very deep thing is that encouragement is so necessary, words of blessing and belief over a congregation that the Lord has wonderful things in store for us, and I can't wait to come alongside, to be with you in that journey, that adventure together, to come alongside, to be with you in that journey, that adventure together. Like I pray more pastors will say that and believe big things with the Holy Spirit's power, by the Holy Spirit's power for their, for their people, that they and you have to be with them. You have to take that low, low spot, but with Jesus, that is the that is the elevated place in our culture today is that taking the low spot is the upside down kingdom of God at work and that would be fanned into flame because the leader and John, you've modeled this so well has a home that's filled with the Holy Spirit, a home that's filled with light and everything that is good and right and true, with light and everything that is good and right and true. And you've just, you've stewarded these four decades of ministry so so well, and you've stewarded your 71 years of life so so well, all by the Spirit's power, for the glory of God. You're leaving a remarkable legacy of love and care and it's an honor to call you my dad. One, uh, one of my dad's uh awesome privilege to be in your family when I got pastors that are all around me, um, and that is such a joy, because what that does for me is it actually keeps me grounded and safe, protected. Maybe, yeah, maybe this is a good time to say this.
Speaker 2:Some people say I would never like challenge LCMS, leaders or whoever you know like. Sometimes I will, or make the what I'm hoping are kind, loving, but yet clear and courageous statements about ways we need to grow more and more up into Jesus who's the head. But if I I couldn't make those statements if I didn't have a family of people who love and care for me and and will be there no matter, no matter what. And you, you are, you're a center point, center figure in my story of encouraging me so, so consistently. Thank you for pouring into so many leaders over the years. If people want to connect with you and your ministry, just experience the love and joy, the encouragement that flows from you to them. How can people connect with you, john?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, you know, contact me with an email and we got the website at Trinity and in Fountain Hills, arizona. Understand that my passion is to help everybody become the best follower of Jesus Christ that they can be. If I do that, if people write on my tombstone he helped me follow Jesus, then I'm great with that. That is wonderful. That is a wonderful thing. So, by all means, I want to be a voice of encouragement, because it's so easy to get discouraged and that breaks my heart when I see people be discouraged, particularly pastors, because we have been gifted with so much and God is so good to us.
Speaker 3:And, as I said, is our church perfect? No, but you know what? It is a great church. It is a great church and it's a privilege to walk together in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and I'm so thankful for even those brothers who challenge me and disagree with me. You know why? Because I love them, because they are part of our team together and I want them to succeed. I want them to do well. So if I can do anything to encourage anybody, just go out and have a cup of coffee. Pray over you. I'm happy to do that. Love to do that.
Speaker 2:This has been an encouraging 45 minutes or so. Jesus loves you listeners so much he smiles over you. Feel free to smile back and if this podcast encourages you, sharing is caring. Let other people experience the joy and love and encouragement which breeds courage that flowed today from Pastor, the one and only one of my dads, the Reverend John John Kozman. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. We'll be back next week with a fresh episode of American Reformation. Thanks so much, john.