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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Transformative Love and the Church's Engagement with the LGBTQ Community with Rev. Mark Schulz
When Reverend Mark Schulz joins us, we open our hearts to a conversation where deep-rooted beliefs confront modern challenges. Together, we examine what it means for the American Christian church to be truly impactful in today's society. We wrestle with the powerful notion that it is not the church which possesses a mission; rather, it is the mission that possesses a church. Our discussion traverses the landscape of pastoral leadership, the vitality of mission-centric communities, and the importance of cultivating leaders from within to shepherd these congregations with both vision and practicality.
Navigating the delicate pathways of interpersonal relationships within church walls, we tackle the often-overlooked subject of conflict resolution. With a lens focused on humility and open communication, we dissect the intricacies of maintaining a healthy church community and the significance of addressing any discord head-on. Moreover, we reconsider the role of worship in evangelism, pondering whether traditional services resonate with those new to the faith, and propose alternate ways to introduce seekers to the life of the church.
In a heartfelt turn, our dialogue shifts to the church's engagement with the LGBTQ community, underscoring the transformative power of authentic love and identity in Christ. We share poignant stories exemplifying acceptance and grace, navigating the complex intersection of deeply held beliefs and the call to embrace all in a spirit of compassion. As you listen, be prepared for an exploration of what it means to be known, loved, and welcomed, as we envision a church that is a sanctuary for every soul.
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast. My name is Tim Allman and I pray wherever you're taking this in. The joy of Jesus is your strength and you're buckled up to have a wonderful conversation today with my friend and I would call him a mentor, a pastor. I've looked up to this man and been honored to get to know him through golf, through Oasis, through some nights of poker from time to time he's a really good poker player, by the way and also just talking about the good and the struggles, the highs and the lows of life. I get to hang out with Reverend Mark Schultz today and Mark, longtime pastor at Trinity in Lyle Illinois outside Chicago and multi-campus leader there and transitioned so so well, and that's one thing. I really look it's really easy. Well, maybe it's not easy, easy, but it's easier to start well, it's harder to finish well, and this man has the humility of Christ on overdrive. So how are you doing today, mark? I'm doing great, tim Good to see you.
Speaker 2:Good to see you. So standard opening question for this podcast how are you praying as you look at the wider Christian church in America? How are you praying for reformation?
Speaker 3:Well, I think the first thing I'd say is I'm praying for a greater focus on the mission. One of my favorite quotes is Alan Hirsch. I heard him say it once. He said the church doesn't have a mission, the mission has a church, and I just love that thought that you know what the church ought to be all about is reaching those who are far from God, and too often we let that slide, and especially in our world and our country today.
Speaker 3:I think that focus on the mission is greater than ever. So I'm praying for that. And then I'm praying for leadership, especially pastoral leadership. We just desperately need good pastoral leaders in the church right now, and I'm helping a church out that's vacant right now in retirement. I'm helping them out and you know they look at me and they they're. They want me to be very encouraging about finding their next pastor and honestly, sometimes it's hard to do because there just aren't that many guys out there that would be a good fit in their context and would have that mission focus. And and so I'm praying for more and more leaders.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, could they raise someone up within their church, Mark?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, we're working on that. We've talked about that. There are a couple of guys there that I think would be awesome, but that's a brand new concept for them. No one's ever told them that was even possible before, which is stunning to me, because that's exactly the way the New Testament church did it right. And so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go to mission really quick. I'm reading a book called the Mission from the Cross and Klaus. I'm going to have Klaus on here soon. Dr Klaus, he's a professor at Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne and this book came out in 2009. Concordia Publishing House produced it.
Speaker 2:But it is thick theology and he argues over and over again from a variety of different angles, that Lutheran is mission, that the call historically from Luther. Even though it was a Christian day and age, if you will, it was still all for mission. He quotes Luther all the time in his care for the Jews and the Turks. He gets a little sideways sometimes in some of his rhetoric. Obviously, the Jews and their lies right, Not Luther's greatest document, to be sure, but his heart was still broken for those who were far from the Lord and the Lutheran confessions were written with this heart for those who did not have good theology, which is all connected to the mission of God to seek and save the lost. So mission has.
Speaker 2:If there are a lot of Lutherans that are listening to this podcast, mission is in our DNA. Well, it's more than that. It's in the scripture's DNA. It's a mission of God to seek and to save all those who are far from him. God has to get all of his kids back. Any response, though, to, as you bring up mission, first and foremost, those who may be skeptical. Can I be Lutheran and mission oriented?
Speaker 3:Well, how can you not? You know, like you said. I mean, luther's passion for getting the gospel right was all about that, wasn't it? It was about the people that he saw, the everyday people of his day seem to be more and more disconnected from the saving grace of Jesus. And when he discovered it, it changed his life, and he wanted that for everyone.
Speaker 2:That's it. It's that simple, all right. So I agree, mission and leadership and creative ideas and raising up local leaders Fantastic, but that's not what we're focusing on today. Stay focused, tim. Here we go. All right, so let's talk about your years as a pastor. What was the hardest part about being a pastor that may surprise people? Pull the curtain back just a little bit. What was the greatest part about being a pastor that may surprise people?
Speaker 3:Well, let me start with the greatest part, and I don't think I realized this till I was done. Just, you get to be with people in some amazing moments of their lives weddings and baptisms and funerals and deaths and you know, we had a big kind of reception plan for me when I retired from Trinity and then we had a huge COVID wave hit the Chicago area and leadership decided rightly so, I think that a lot of people in a big room together wasn't a good idea at the time, so we canceled it. But they gave people a chance to write me some notes and got it to me and I sat in my living room with a pile of notes from people and the thing that people mentioned the most was maybe just a phrase I had said in a message or something I had said at a wedding or when I was visiting somebody, that when they were near death, and those are things that so often when you're a pastor at a large church, they're pretty far down on your priority list because you have so many other leadership related things to do, but those were the things that meant the most to people and that really stuck with them and that was kind of a cool experience for me being able to sit back and go. Wow, I guess God did use me and some things that I said or did to make a difference in people's lives, so that was truly the greatest part.
Speaker 3:The hardest part was honestly staffing, and I don't mean from a you know, staff screwing up perspective although you know certainly that happens but it's more the burden of knowing that. I mean at one point we had over 70 people on staff at Trinity and ultimately I was responsible for them, for their livelihood, for them growing in what God had called them to do, for them being able to be successful in their ministry, and I felt the burden of that. And I think that would surprise a lot of people because you know they don't think about pastor in that kind of vein. But that was probably the hardest or most challenging thing for me.
Speaker 2:Well, I could agree with both of those. Now you have just a handful of years on me, but being 16 years, with the greatest joys of just being present with people, and you get the invitation to enter into all of these monumental moments. It's just stunning, as you think about it. And you get to speak God's word, point him to the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's an unbelievable privilege. But then yeah, because both you and I serve in and there's a lot of folks listening to in smaller context, with no staff per se.
Speaker 2:So this is not, this is not to disparage you at all, at all. I think there's great value actually in the, in the small church today.
Speaker 2:A lot a lot of value for people to be known and seen and loved. But at the same time, uh, I I get to oversee. Um, I'm kind of like because I'm still my, my primary vocation, while his husband father, et cetera. But then I'm a pastor here but I'm kind of like a mayor in in a like 4,000 person town, you know. So there's all sorts of things that come and there's an ecosystem, an economic ecosystem. I got 130 full and part-time folks, you know, in a church and a school. That's kind of doing all these different things and it's just, it is kind of overwhelming. It's like wow, because I'm very positive, I'm very optimistic, maybe blindly so. So from time to time, but there's a part of me, like it's a Holy spirit, he says, tim, don't mess, mess this up, man.
Speaker 1:Like, yeah, like don't mess this.
Speaker 3:That is the law, to be sure, but it's an appropriate use of the law.
Speaker 2:That kills me and really humbles me to say, hey, let's, let's mind the not just what you say, but how you say it and the culture that gets created. How did you kind of create that? And it's the Holy Spirit at work. But Trinity is definitely known for this kind of joy filled, collaborative, entrepreneurial let's take the next hill mission orientation type of thing. How did you cultivate that culture of risk? I think that's what I kind of know about you. You're free to fail here. We're going to try, but we're going to fail forward. We're moving this thing forward. It's about the mission of God. Talk about that a bit, mark.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I was really blessed because when I first came to Trinity that culture was already there, right, I mean they were among the first to start small group ministries, way back in the eighties, when it was just starting up in, and they were. They were already talking about multi-site possibilities and policy-based governance and stuff like that long before I ever got there. So you know there's something to be said that they started in the late sixties with, in an area that really wasn't expected to be able to, where a Lutheran congregation would thrive. You know, the initial idea was that's way too Catholic an area, lutheran church won't do well there. But but those, those founding members said we believe God's calling us to give this a shot, and they did so.
Speaker 3:I think it's been part of the culture there all along. I do think just continuing to over communicate the mission. You know somebody used an example for me once that it's like your porn mission and vision into a leaky bucket, you know, and you have to just keep filling, keep filling, keep filling or or it's going to leak away, and I think that's just so true. So so keeping it going was was fun and a challenge, but I was blessed because that that kind of risk and let's take the next hill for Jesus. You know, mentality was there before I even got there.
Speaker 2:And praise God. You've passed it on to Nick Price and the team. They're continuing to to move in beautiful ways. Whenever I like, that vision, leak, mission, leak. Everybody can picture that bucket with holes in it. The leak is sin, isn't it? I mean the leak, the drag of sin and selfishness, consumerism take care of me, don't try anything. There's, you know, fear-based. This inevitably leads to conflict because you as a leader have to kind of steer, holy Spirit-empowered, steer them toward places that they may not really feel safe to go. So what was your strategy for handling an inevitable conflict in the congregation? How did you address it?
Speaker 3:Well, I heard Bill Hybels at Willow Creek say something once that that just really stuck with me, because it's not my nature.
Speaker 3:My nature is to kind of hope it goes away, right, you know.
Speaker 3:But he said when something stinks, a good leader has to stick their nose in it as fast as possible.
Speaker 3:And and that really stuck with me and I tried to make that a mantra, kind of personally at least for me, for ministry that when, when, when I got just a little bit of whiff that there was something out of whack or that there was some conflict or something, I tried to to get in the middle of it as fast as I could. Uh, because the sooner you engage with it, the easier it is first of all to engage with and um, and that it can spread. Conflict can spread like crazy fast in any human organization, maybe in the church the most, because Satan's working the hardest there, I don't know, but but yeah, so so addressing it as fast as possible and then again just trying to just keep everything out in the open and communicate and, communicate, and communicate, and never have anything to hide or feel like that you can sweep anything under the rug. I think the faster you get at it and the more open you are about it, the easier it is to deal with, get it out in the light.
Speaker 3:You know, scripture says stuff thrives in the darkness Right, so get it out in the light.
Speaker 2:That's it. That's it. I, you and I share that desire to address conflict quickly. I found that because I have a track record now over a decade of kind of entering into difficult conversations quickly, with love and care, hopefully. But but it's going to be. We embrace the awkward here. If we see something, we have to say something that sometimes folks will they want to like live in it and like talk it out longer, and so it doesn't often come to me and that's just fine, because I think the system has become healthy enough. Where there's space that's beyond me to to work through the inevitable relational difficulties that come.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, praise God. I don't know that I've ever really articulated that, but I've moved from, I think, the solver of conflict and I've intentionally put up some kind of safety guardrails with folks that so that I can maintain love and care for that staff member. I don't have to hear all the stuff they need to be able to talk about it, but I just want to see them as man. You're a, you're a beautiful child of God, servant of the Lord, and and I know we all got stuff and I'm glad on your team I guess that's probably the best way to talk about it on your team You're working through, you're working through the stuff. Let's, let's go. Did that happen for you as the organization kind of grew in things over time that it kind of just became. I think that's a sign of health when we're working quickly, collectively, not just everything coming to you. I'm thinking Moses and Jethro here right.
Speaker 2:Not everything coming to you, but but working it out before it gets to you and so the big stuff is about all that.
Speaker 3:It really comes comes to you, yeah, for sure, and and, and I think you have to be just rigorous in your, you know, not letting people triangulate, right? Um, I people would. Just, they knew that if they came to me and they had an issue with somebody and they hadn't talked to that person first or they hadn't addressed it first, they knew what was going to happen. I was going to say you're not talking to me about this until you guys have worked through this or at least had a chance to and and or until the right person, like your site pastor, needs to be the one that's talking with you about this, Not me. I'm not going to let you do an end run around him.
Speaker 3:And you know it almost became like a joke on the staff. You know people would be like well, don't talk to Mark, because he's just going to tell you go talk to the person. Right, you know, and? But I mean, it's just the temptation is to let them vent a little, Then they feel better, Then the issue doesn't get addressed and that's why it's just so important to not be that outlet for people.
Speaker 2:Have you read Leadership and Self-Deception, that book by the Arbinger Group, in the box, out of the box, do you remember?
Speaker 1:that.
Speaker 2:Yep, people often want to stay, and this is our sin nature. We want to stay in the box and we develop an identity or even a caricature of ourselves and others. That's just not entirely true, and the only way we can get out of the box is humility. It's confession, it's engaging the difficult conversation, it's not letting our brain go too far down and, because this is the crazy thing, we'll have these narratives in our brain about what the other person. We put intent on the other person when they're like let's be honest here, ladies, especially if it's a guy, he's not thinking that deep about a whole bunch of stuff. You know, it just happened. It just happened and he's kind of moved on.
Speaker 2:But, like she may develop, all these things about this happens in the home all the time, right, with a husband and a wife not really jiving with one another, and so sometimes you need that third person to come, and I heard you say this. Could you say that to him? Or vice versa, you know, yeah, so talk about leadership and self-deception and being in the box and out of the box. It's the humble way of Jesus. Even though it's a secular book, it's so, so true.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it totally is, and you know that we all have that tendency to explain our own actions in the best possible light and explain someone else's actions in the worst, right? So, uh, you cut somebody off in traffic. You're like, oh man, I'm having a rough day, I wasn't paying attention, I'm so sorry, that's not how, that's not how I normally drive. Somebody cuts you off and you're like what a jerk that guy is, that guy's a terrible driver, right? So, yeah, no, that whole idea of self-deception is just so important. And helping people look in the mirror clearly and having them help you look in the mirror clearly is huge in leadership, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep, cool. All right, let's talk about friendship. One of the main reasons I would say you have lasted as well mentally, emotionally, physically as well as you have, is you have relationships outside of outside of the church and with pastors and with golfers. So talk a little bit about the need for pastors to have friends, mark.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm not the kind of person you know hear from some people that a pastor is not supposed to have friends in the congregation. I don't follow that line of thinking. I have some really great friends that were part of the congregations I served at for many years, happened to be guys that also enjoyed a passion for golf like I did, you know, and could hang around with, and I do think that it's really important. You can't, you've got to have friends, but I also think it's crucial to have friends that are outside the family of believers. I was blessed to be part of a country club for a lot of years and make some really good friends there that had nothing to do with church, and that was good for me because it helped me have perspective, but hopefully it was good for them too, because I was able to bring um where he might not have been otherwise if I wasn't there. So, um, and it gave me some perspective, um, I, I was.
Speaker 3:I remember there was a good Friday, uh, where I wasn't preaching that that evening, um, and it was a beautiful spring day. So I'm, I'm golfing, right and uh, get done with golf and we're sitting around the cigar pit, you know, uh, talk with some of the guys and I'm like, well, I gotta get going. I I got church tonight and they're like church. I'm like, yeah, it's good Friday and so I invited these guys. I'm like, why don't you come with me? You know why, why don't you come to?
Speaker 3:But but here was the interesting thing for me, that that you know, two hours later I'm sitting in that good Friday service and if, if there's any time when we are the most traditional as a church, it's good Friday. And and I was sitting there thinking honestly, I'm glad they didn't come with, because they wouldn't have understood 90% of what's going on here. And it would have been. I would have been sitting there squirming the whole time going what are they thinking about this, right? So it just gave me a perspective that you know we need to. You know, I tell our folks all the time if you want to really have an interesting perspective on a worship service, bring an unchurched friend with you and all of a sudden you start looking at everything else going on in the room differently, right?
Speaker 2:It is man. Our sociology sometimes overwhelms our theology. If you have that lens and you look at all the stuff we do as the church, it's sociological. It's how we've chosen to organize the liturgy. Now I can justify the liturgy. I think the liturgy is fantastic. I think it tells the story of Scripture. But let's be honest, there's no place in Scripture that actually, or Jesus saying you must do the invocation to begin and every time you leave, make sure it's the Aaronic benediction, don't do the Pauline one. It needs to be the Aaronic benediction, whatever you know. But these are all just ways we've chose to organize ourselves and it's helpful, but it needs to be uh, it needs to be missionally oriented to think of those who are.
Speaker 2:And I don't think I don't think frankly that worship is, is the primary evangelical tool for us today. I think it's. It's it's being with people, talking, developing friendship and then naturally, sharing the story of Jesus and his love for the world, shown through the cross and the empty tomb. As the Holy Spirit gives you the right words, worship is definitely insider baseball, isn't it? I mean, it's not really the seeker. This is kind of fascinating.
Speaker 2:You do live in a context there in Chicago where seeker and you already mentioned high bulls the seeker sensitive service, right, right, talk about, talk about that, and I think some of our large churches too. There is this aspect of kind of performance, you know, maybe in a more contemporary style, but I'm just going to, I'm just going to say it 99% of the people that come to our worship services are already Christians, already Christians. We need to have adult baptisms, to be sure, but those are going to be fanned into flame with so many month over month, year over year relationship with someone who's far from Jesus at the golf course in your neighborhood. Talk about seeker sensitive services, though, mark. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So we used to I mean so we would talk about on ramps into the into, into ministry, right into the church family and there's no doubt that at some level worship is still an on ramp for some people but it is not the primary on ramp anymore and I would say serving opportunities can be a huge on ramp. I would say serving opportunities can be a huge on-ramp. I know a lot of people that got connected with Trinity because we used to do once a year we used to do this free clinic where we get doctors and nurses and dentists and all kinds of people that they would show up on a Saturday morning and anyone who didn't have health care or access to health care could come and get a checkup or get school physicals done or figure out what was going on with their cavity and their. You know that kind of stuff. I know more people that ended up joining and becoming part of the church family, trinity, because a friend had talked them into volunteering at that clinic and they started hanging around and going, wow, if this church is doing that, I want to find out more. So I think serving opportunities are on ramps and I also, just like you said, small group relationships. You know, are we really very small group based congregation and seeing a small group, especially those social times where small group invites a couple to come hang out with them and and gets them connected into a ministry context there those are, I think are much bigger on ramps now than worship.
Speaker 3:But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't worship in such a way that someone who's just walked in the door can understand it right. I agree. For me, like back to that Good Friday service, the whole slamming of the book thing and the carrying the little candle out and bringing it, you know, all that kind of stuff is great. It is very meaningful for me, for people who are believers, but for somebody new sitting there it could be meaningful if there was some way that it was explained to them.
Speaker 3:But if we just do it and expect people to, by osmosis, somehow try to understand what's going on, or you know just, I mean just elements of the liturgy, like you mentioned, the benediction, well, well, what? What does that mean? Why are those words important? What's the historic nature of those? And so I, I, I think we we don't dumb down worship for seekers but at the same time explaining to people here. Here's a great example of that you walk into Starbucks and you say I want a large coffee. They're going to say, oh, you mean a venti, right, they're going to give you the language to use. They're going to teach you the language. They didn't dumb down their names. Right, they keep the cool names, but they're going to help you understand what that means, right, and we need to do that better.
Speaker 2:Totally, totally agree. I'm just thinking about the Good Friday service, I hope, because we do the slamming, the book and the candle the whole nine years. I hope if someone brings a friend they explain what is going to happen prior to the time together. That's the ideal scenario and hopefully that has moved out of some sort of affinity group, small group relationship. We have Christ Greenfield Care, cg Cares, classes that are taking place quarterly and a lot of those are around grief, divorce. So grief care, divorce care, those are we're reaching big time into the community right now around those. So La Mesa, our meal and worship, you know.
Speaker 2:So there's so many different felt needs that need to be the on-ramp, the front door for folks. Does the church care for me? I've heard of a number of them and we're praying about this right now. But if you have, if your church happens to be on a pretty busy thoroughfare, which ours does, put out a sign and say just prayer, stop in for prayer. Like there are people with a spiritual center spiritual but not religious, that kind of a thing who may stop in. They may be walking through a real hard time and just the blessing of God over them, hearing the need and praying for the need man that could be a major felt need in our community to invite people into a relationship with Jesus. So so, so good. Now the second half of this conversation is going to be around your ministry right now. I'm super excited about this. So talk about truly and fully your ministry, how it was founded, how did you come up with the name? And I love it. Let's go come up with the name and.
Speaker 3:I love it, let's go Well. So the summer before I went to seminary I was a Lutheran school teacher for 12 years before I went to seminary and that summer, before Betty and I were leaving, I had to St Louis to go to seminary. My brother came out to our family as gay, I will say my sister and I were not surprised. It was something that we had suspected for a while. So that kind of launched me into an area of life that I hadn't really thought about that much and that is how do you relate to somebody that you know and care about who is gay? I'll be really honest, for a number of years I did not do that very well at all. I felt like my religious conviction and what I believe the Bible had to say had to be first and foremost in our relationship and that didn't communicate that in such a way that was gracious and loving and caring. But my brother and I are in a great place right now. We love each other. He's married and I really love and respect he and his husband Jim. They are very active in their church and I find it interesting that sometimes I will say that my brother is a very dedicated Christian, people will say that's not possible because he's gay, which is mind boggling to me to hear people say that. And so, over the years, I've been very open about the fact that my brother's gay and that we've had some issues because of that, and we've also had some great joys now. And so I've had a chance to talk with literally hundreds of LGBTQ people who, by the way, are desperate for connections to a faith community in a lot of cases. Some studies show that three out of every four LGBTQ people would love to reconnect with the church if they thought they'd be welcome, but they unfortunately don't feel like they'd be welcome. And so there's just this huge mission field of people who, if we were doing a better job sharing God's love and grace, and so that's that's what. When I started thinking about retirement, something I wanted to do is help churches do a better job showing God's love and grace, and so that's that's what. When I started thinking about retirement, um, something I wanted to do is help churches do a better job, uh, showing God's love and grace to the LGBTQ community. Um, I believe you can do that, um, regardless of your uh, church's theological perspective on whether being gay is a sin or not. Um, I, I don't think you have to compromise your theology one bit, uh to bit to do a better job of showing God's love and grace to people. Just real quickly tell you where the name for the church or the name for the ministry comes from.
Speaker 3:There's a great quote by Tim Keller it's in his book on marriage, as a matter of fact where he says To be loved but not known is comforting but superficial. In other words, if you say, mark, I really love you, I think you're awesome, but I know you don't really know me very well, oh, that's comforting. But there's this little voice in my head going oh, if he really knew me, I don't think he'd be saying that. Right? The quote goes on to say to be known and not loved is our greatest fear. Right, our greatest fear is that as someone gets to know us, they say you know what? I don't really want anything to do with you, but to be fully known and truly loved is a lot like being loved by God, because he knows us fully. There's nothing about him he doesn't know. He knows stuff about me that I don't even admit to myself or know, right, and yet he still loves me truly. That love is complete and unconditional, and so our churches ought to be places where all people, not just LGBTQ people, but all people feel like they can be fully known. They don't have to hide anything. They can be open about their faults, their failings, their struggles, their whatever's broken in their life. They can be fully known and yet know that they are truly loved.
Speaker 3:We had, can I tell you a quick story? Yes, yes, so we were. We were doing a series on difficult social subjects and we were talking about the transgender issue. This was on a Wednesday night, midweek service, and I do think we've still got some work to do theologically as a church body, by the way, on the transgender issue and anyway, so I said there's still some questions I have about what God's word has to say and why it says it and how it says it and how that relates to people who are struggling with gender dysphoria. I said, but but one thing I do know for sure is that we are going to be a church family where transgender people are welcome.
Speaker 3:And then I walked out into the sacristy after the service, you know, take my robe off and a guy, an elderly gentleman, just kind of made a beeline for me and I saw him come and I'm like, oh, this is probably not going to be good. He's probably upset about this. And he walked into the section, he shut the door behind me and I'm like, oh, this is really not going to be good, you know. And I looked at him and he had tears in his eyes and he said Pastor Mark, you were talking about me tonight. And I said I'm sorry, what?
Speaker 3:And he said I've known all my life. I'm a woman trapped in a man's body and growing up in the 30s and 40s, you never told a soul about that and I've struggled with that my whole life. And he goes. But I'll tell you what he goes. For 30 some years I've walked into this church every Sunday morning and there's been a little voice in my head that said if they knew you would not be welcome here. And he goes. Now I know I'm welcome here and he just gave me the biggest hug. And church shouldn't be a place where every Sunday, where you walk in, there's a little voice in your head going if they knew you wouldn't be welcome here, right, it should be a place where people can be totally open and honest and know that they are loved and welcome. So that's, that's what I'm passionate about helping churches, be that.
Speaker 2:And so good and so difficult, because it's such a polarizing topic today.
Speaker 2:It's become so, so divisive and the churches, especially conservative churches, which we are confessing churches, have kind of played right into that political polarization, kind of played right into that political polarization.
Speaker 2:And let's get into the words that you use, because I think people are yearning for the words that help them not compromise what is true and right connected to scripture, because I believe we're all broken and we're all sexually broken, whether gay or straight or trans, whatever there's, because of the fall, uh, our sexuality has been, and whether you're you're, you know, uh, you've been married for decades, to think that Satan hasn't come and attacked you around lust or sexual perversion in some way, shape or form Women and men, is an absolute lie and we need the grace and love of a God who knows us fully and truly, loves us, and the cross, the cross proves it, the way of Jesus proves it. So, before, I think it's easy to make the case while Jesus, you know the woman caught in adultery or the it's always the women, by the way, these women's stories or the woman at the well you know, the five husbands, et cetera.
Speaker 2:Like we know, jesus kind of came to them, saw them, love them, even challenged them. But some of the words that you use right now is acknowledging and accepting without agreeing and affirming. I'll say it again acknowledging and accepting without agreeing and affirming. Why don't you go deeper into those words? Very, very intentional.
Speaker 3:Well, so first of all, let's talk about agreeing and affirming. You know, sometimes we'll get the question are you an affirming church? And we always say no, because that has all kinds of political context to it, it has all kinds of baggage with it, and certainly we don't have to agree with every decision or life choice people make, right. We can't, scripture doesn't and so we shouldn't. And, by the way, that's true not just about sexuality issues. You know, I mean, I have yet to meet the parent that would say they agree with every life choice their kids have made, right, but they still love them, right, and those kids are still welcome in their house at Christmas time, right. So we don't agree with every choice people make and we certainly don't affirm whatever they want us to affirm, and especially with all the political context that goes with that word.
Speaker 3:But but when we look at Jesus and how he treated people, first of all, he acknowledged you mentioned the Samaritan woman at the well, one of my favorite stories. He acknowledged. You mentioned the Samaritan woman at the well, one of my favorite stories. People will say to me all the time well, jesus told her to go sin no more. No, he didn't. That was the woman who was caught in adultery and, by the way, I'm with you when was the guy that was also caught in adultery? Right?
Speaker 1:He's not in the picture there, but anyway so.
Speaker 3:But Jesus acknowledged, with the Samaritan woman, he, you know, he says go get your husband. And she goes Well, I don't have a husband. And he's like Well, you're right, you know, because you're living with a guy and you've had five husbands. Right, he acknowledged that he, he made it clear to her that he knew her story, he knew why she's coming all alone at the hottest point of the day to draw water, instead of in the morning with all the other women in the village. He, he acknowledges that she's an outcast. He acknowledges that she's got this past, um, but it doesn't stop him from using her to evangelize the whole village. Right, and in fact, when she goes to that village, what's her, her witness, her witnesses.
Speaker 3:I met a man that knew everything about me, right, and the implication there is, but still talk to me, but still cared about me. And the implication there is, but still talk to me, but still cared about me, but still right. So, so, so he acknowledged um and then he accepted people. Um. In luke 15 it says um, the pharisees and the religious leaders are, are angry with jesus, they're upset with him and they're, they're, they're complaining about him. Is this man receives sinners and eats with them.
Speaker 3:Now the word there receives, when you look it up, the basic meaning of that word is acceptance. It's not just that he was open to them coming to hear him preach or well, yeah, you can sit in our congregation, you can sit in our pews, you know, kind of idea. The word there implies that there was some they felt accepted by him. The word there implies that there was some they felt accepted by him. They felt they felt like he knew that they were created in the image of God and they would later come to learn that he was willing to give his life for that Right For that.
Speaker 3:So so we ought to be able to accept people as children of God that were created in his image, as people for whom Jesus gave his life on the cross, and we ought to be able to acknowledge who they are and what they're struggling with. But again, that doesn't mean that we agree with every theological viewpoint they hold or affirm, any choices they make in their lives. And I believe there's a way to do that, to walk that line. It's hard, it's messy sometimes, but it's what we're called to do if we're going to be people of love and grace and care where people are fully known.
Speaker 2:Like. This is one of the biggest struggles today, man. Imagine the, the explosion of mission, the freedom in every baptized believer's soul. If they had, if they had someone that they were confessing sin to, confessing struggle to and receiving absolution from. That would change absolutely everything. Mark right, but we haven't. In the American church we have kept things. So left brain and I go off on left, right brain we don't talk about emotions, we don't talk about what happens in the dark. Keep it there. But Jesus knows, and the body of Christ should be a place where we're all broken, wounded healers. It's just one beggar telling another beggar where to find food, like if we go down this path.
Speaker 2:We go down this path too far, bro, like if we get to the pharisaical, legalistic path. Sin is sin. Yes, sin against the body is a very big thing. We should talk about it. But we all must acknowledge we are broken and in desperate need. I am the chief of sinners with the Apostle Paul right? If we led with that sort of humility, I really believe our people would have safety to talk about their sin, talk about their struggles, sexual immorality, lust, et cetera, and receive absolution one from another. I really have come to the point right now where, with Luther back in the day, it is all confession and absolution. It's all confession and absolution. We desperately need to be acknowledged by a God who accepts us and brings through the word of forgiveness and love, brings a new man and woman alive in Christ. Any thoughts there, mark?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean you're just absolutely right on track there and we have to be consistent too. Um, we have to be consistent to um. I I find that we treat uh different um things that people are struggling with differently in the church, right, um, we had a gay married guy who's attending our church and getting involved and singing in the choir and at Trinity, the choir at our whatever in our traditional site sits up behind the altar. Right, and I had a guy come to me and say you know, I love this guy, I'm glad he's at our church, but I'm uncomfortable with him being up in front and people seeing him up there and and people you know going to his Facebook page and seeing he's making dinner for his husband and what's that witness? And now the guy that's talking to me about this is on his fourth marriage witness. And now the guy that's talking to me about this is on his fourth marriage, right, and it doesn't see any inconsistency there at all. Right, you know, um, and you know the other thing that we're talking about, about helping helping people move to the point where they are confessing, where they are dealing with their brokenness.
Speaker 3:Um, one of the key passages that people point to, uh, regarding LGBTQ issues is, in Romans chapter one, right, but people forget that Paul begins Romans chapter two by saying now, before you pass judgment on them, remember you're no better than they are right. You struggle as well, which you've been saying. We're all broken. And then he says this and don't you know that it is God's kindness that is meant to lead you to repentance?
Speaker 3:I don't know about you, but I was taught at seminary the way you get somebody to repent as you beat him over the head with the law At least. I mean, that's probably an unfair characterization, but but that's what it feels like sometimes, right when Paul says no, it's God's kindness, it's. It's. Just. Imagine if LGBTQ people that you talk to said man, christians are weird. I don't know what to make of Christians. You know they believe all this weird stuff and yet, but they're the kindest people I know. Wouldn't that be awesome? That would be just incredible. So how can we, how can we be kind, how can we be loving and help people struggle with what they know and they are wrestling with in their lives?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's it. And Lutherans should be okay, like relatively good at this, because our theology is filled with tension, saint and sinner, right, with tension, saint and sinner, right, law and gospel. We need to talk about our core identity in Christ. I mean, because those who are wrestling with they're just wrestling and trying to prove themselves right, to find an identity that is in addition to Christ. And how hard is that to live with so much struggle and shame and feeling a certain way but not being acknowledged, accepted first by God. Right, like the wrestle is real. And so, yeah, I'm hoping the church can just be a more hospitable, humble place, um, that that welcomes the, the broken sinner, to be sure, because their core, their core need, is identity.
Speaker 2:I've been hearing from a lot of theologians today. Mark, that you know back 500 years ago, justification by grace, through faith, is the you know teaching by which the church rises and falls. But the other side of the coin, or hand in glove with justification, is identity, baptismal identity. How amazing to say to someone who's struggling with sexual, their sexual identity, to say, yeah, I get that, that's all well and fine, but you're a child of God, yeah, you're loved by God Go ahead.
Speaker 3:You're really hitting on something that's so crucial. You, you had, you've had Bob Kolb on here before, right? Yep, yep, yeah. He is, I think, a brilliant theologian and in in his book on Christianity he talks about primary and secondary sources of identity. And and he he like. For example, a secondary source of identity for me would be I'm Betty's husband. We've been married 45 years, right, and I find a certain amount of my identity in the fact that I'm her husband, right, but that's a secondary source of identity. My primary source of identity is founded I'm a child of God. I'm a baptized, loved, forgiven child of God. And if I ever mess those up, if I ever let the fact that I'm Betty's husband become my primary source of identity Kolb says it so well in his book. He says, basically, I put her and I both into a prison that we can't get out of. He says as a wife, she has many desirable characteristics. As a God, she leaves a lot to be desired, right.
Speaker 3:And and and, and here's the here's the lie that LGBTQ people are told by the LGBTQ community that your sexuality or your gender is your primary source of identity, that that is who you are at your core, before anything else. And our goal ought to be, as believers, especially to those people in our lives that we know and love who are part of the LGBTQ community our goal ought to be not to be constantly speaking God's truth into people's ears there's an opportunity for that but our goal ought to be to help them find their primary source of identity in Christ and then in the fact that they are a love forgiven child of God. And I'm convinced that if we can get that, if we can help them get Jesus in the center of their life as their primary source of identity, everything else will sort itself out. And and and again, the fact that they're constantly being told no, your primary source of identity is that you are a gay man or you are a transgender woman or whatever that is.
Speaker 2:That's the lie to take place, there has to be relationship, yeah, and relationship takes time. And I don't know that the American conservative church, because that's really all you're calling for. I guarantee there's going to be a lot of responses to this podcast. I can't believe you had Mark on there. He talks about this kind of stuff. It's like give me a break. You're just talking about setting space for people to be in right relationship, first with God, hearing his word, responding to his word, and then with his people, and transformation does not come. I'm going to. I'll double down. Transformation does not come by yelling, screaming, chastising, you know, shaming. Transformation comes through the proximity of Christ, who is kind, and then his people, who are kind. That's the only way it's going to take place. So what do you say to someone who says Mark, you've turned into an antinomian, you don't care about the law at all? I'm sure you've heard that. So what do you say to that brother or sister?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean again, I would point to that whole identity idea, right, that that you know when, when someone says to me do you believe being gay is a sin? Either there's someone who's who's trying to see if I'm kosher, theologically right, and they don't really care about LGBTQ people they care more about my theology Right or someone from the LGBTQ community and honestly, they don't. They could care less whether I think being gay is a sin or not. What? What they're really asking me is how are you going to treat me Right? Are you going to treat me with love and care and respect, or are you going to treat me like I'm worthless because you perceive that there's this brokenness in my life? Right, and so you said it well before being a Christian isn't about getting the law right and following it. Being a Christian is not about what I do. It's about what God has done. It's one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread. I think you said that and that's exactly right. And so is there a place for the law? Absolutely, um, uh, we're not just to do whatever you want, believe whatever you want, um, but, but people have to be allowed to belong.
Speaker 3:Um, I, I talk about this all the time most churches, I would argue, are believe, behave, belong. You know, you, if you believe certain things and you're willing to behave in a certain way, then then you can belong, and I don't necessarily mean membership, I mean you can, you can be part of the family, right? Um, I would argue, jesus did the opposite. He was belong, believe, behave, um and um. And I said that, by the way, recently at a conference I was speaking at, and somebody came up to me and said I don't, jesus was belong, believe, behave. I think he was belong, believe, become. I was like, oh, I love that, I like that.
Speaker 3:Right, jesus wasn't really worried about how people behaved. He was worried about what they were becoming now. Behaviors obviously tied up in that, but but the. The reason those people that were seen as outcasts by the church of his day were flocking to Jesus is because they felt a sense of belonging. They felt like that he wanted to be in relationship with them, that that they mattered to him. Um, and. And then he worked on what it was that they believed and what they were becoming. Um and uh. I, I mean so, am I an antinomian? No, but, but I am willing, uh, to let people belong long before they believe the right things or behave in the right ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that appears to be the Jesus way, his disciples you know they had issues and they're going to be exposed in their journey with Jesus, and then they received the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit sends the church on this radical mission of love for the world, for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but this world may find life and joy and everything that's good wrapped up in the presence of Christ, who came not for the well but for the sick, and Jesus' hardest words are reserved for those who try to justify themselves according to the law, based on something that they do, and the church can go down that pharisaical path, very, very quick. Pharisaical path, very, very quick. So this is a wild year in which to be a human being one and a Christian in the United States of America because, yes, it's another election year.
Speaker 2:Mark, what are your biggest concerns? Because I think the church has a huge. I think we're holding out arms at our best. We're holding out our arms to care and love for, to set our minds above where Christ is, beyond the petty partisan politics that take place today to help people keep their wits about them. No president, no leader, no king ever is going to save us. We have a king and he's on the throne. His name is Jesus the Christ. Like we have to be speaking those words consistently to one another because we can go down some pretty divisive lines within the church. As you look at the wider conservative, christian and yes, lutheran congregation, what are some of your biggest concerns as we navigate another election year?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I mean, one of my biggest concerns is thatq people get caught in the political crossfire right now. 10 years ago, whether you were gay or trans was not a republican democrat issue. It's become one right, um, and and and, as a result, um, people, people are letting their politics get in the way of their care for individual people in their lives. Right, um, uh, and I mean here's here's, here's an example of that. You know, I, I know someone who's uh got a grandson who just recently came out as transgender. Um, and as we talked about it, what I what I recognized is they were more concerned about their politics than they were about care for that grandson. And when I pointed that out to his credit, he acknowledged it and said boy, I think you're right, I think I'm letting, I think I'm letting my politics get in the way of the best way for me to show love and grace to my grandson.
Speaker 3:So that's the danger, and I mean we have this God given prophetic voice that all believers have to speak out against what is wrong in the world around us, right, especially when it comes to issues of sexuality of all kinds, not just LGBTQ issues. Our world seems to be moving further and further away from the moral compass that we find in God's word, and so we have this God-given desire to speak out against that, and we should. But the individual LGBTQ person who is sitting across the table or in the living room with me and has just come out or is sharing what, what they're struggling with, they don't need that prophetic voice, they need God's love and gracious voice, and being astute enough to sort those out is huge, and again, it is messy, there's no doubt about it. But but those are very different conversations.
Speaker 2:Can I say so, I'm a historian, I was a history major in college and love looking at history and I'm conservative, you know, confessional, et cetera. You know, I think the United States is a pretty amazing place. Freedom of speech is a big, big deal for us. So can I say two things in my pastoral role at the same, at the same time? One I think the gender confusion today is a systemic and this sounds hard but kind of social contagion to a degree that we're moving down this, this path. I don't think it's the path of love and joy and peace, again, all because of the identity being found in sexuality rather than in Christ. I can say that at the same time as I can say, and we're a congregation that acknowledges and accepts every single broken sinner, no matter their ideology, political affinity, whatever it is. I hope I can say both of those things at the very same, at the very same time. And it is.
Speaker 2:It is hard for the communicator because it is also, it is speaking the truth in love with, and we gotta, we gotta monitor our tone. When we're in, when I have that pastoral voice, when I put on the prophetic voice, I have to watch. I have to watch tone because we can. I think it's Jesus with the Pharisees, right. We can create people who are, you know, not only leading people to hell, but we're sons of hell, if you will, if we lead solely in this kind of damning of the world that Jesus came to save. So it's so kind of nuanced. I hope we can engage in more nuance politically and agree on Christ. Our culture has lost nuance and deep dialogue, right, and that's why you get a label on you, because you say certain things rather than taking it out of context. This is what I know. Mark loves Jesus. Mark loves to tell people about Jesus. Mark loves Lutheran theology. Mark also loves his gay brother. Yep, amen, all those things are true.
Speaker 2:Yep, those are all true, so any response to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no.
Speaker 3:I mean you're exactly right. I mean I think about that. To switch issues a little bit, I think about the abortion issue. I mean we clearly believe, as Scripture teaches, that life begins at conception and so that means abortion is taking a human life. They should be voting and working. Here's what they need to hear. But also the woman who has, who had an abortion in her past, um can feel God's love and grace and acceptance. Uh, in in what you're saying, it's incredibly hard and, like you said, it's gotta be incredibly nuanced.
Speaker 2:Um, and, and we can't let that pendulum fall on either side Right, and I would say it's the same here. Yeah, what makes you last question most excited for the day that Jesus returns to make all things new?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know it's, it's so. I can't wait for the burdens that people carry all the time to just be gone Right. I know a transgender man who believes that God planned and designed for him to be a woman. He can't live that way right now and he needs to live as a man, but in heaven he believes he will be the woman that God created him to be, without that burden of dysphoria. God created him to be without that burden of dysphoria. I know another transgender man that says the opposite, that he was born female but God intended for him to be male and and the struggles he has will be gone in heaven too. I don't know which one of them is right. Maybe they both are. You know all dysphoria, all um isolation, um, that that can happen as a result of us, uh, dealing with our sexuality. Um, I know that that's all going to be fixed and happen and I can't wait.
Speaker 2:Yeah, confusion, chaos, division, despair, depression will be fully human mark. Yep, I mean, as he intended, it's so, so good. I just pray for the day and I pray that the lord finds us expectant and finds us faithful. Uh, stewarding. Stewarding the lives that are already claimed by the waters of baptism and, at the very same time, going on mission to make jesus known, that's that's it. And if we miss on time, going on mission to make Jesus known, that's it.
Speaker 2:And if we miss on mission, that God is on a mission to get all of his kids back LGBTQ, anybody that has a faulty identity based in their vocation, whatever it is, rather than as a child of God. We're going to lead toward legalism. We're going to die on the hill of the law to we're going to lead toward legalism. We're going to die on the hill of the law. And and may we, may we rest on the one who died. Our death on the cross and his blood now covers all of our sin, and we have hope in this life and in the life to come, in this messy journey, this tension filled journey.
Speaker 2:So I just I acknowledge and I accept you, mark, as a brother in Christ, and thanks for working it out, with us being a voice that says, hey, we should challenge some of our thought process, the way that we maybe not just what we say, but how we say it, and I think that's all you're saying right now, and this has been so much fun. It's an honor to call you a brother in Christ. If people want to connect with you and your ministry, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Mark Website is fullyandtrulyorg, and I would love to have people connect with me through there. Mark at fullyandtrulyorg is my email address and I'm blessed to be working with a bunch of churches right now and would love to work with more or help people that are trying to negotiate through an issue like this in their lives.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. This is American Reformation Podcast. Sharing is caring, like, subscribe, comment. Wherever it is that you take in Tension-filled, jesus-centered conversations like this with brothers like Pastor Mark. You're a dear friend and this is a beautiful day to be alive. It's the only day we have, by the way. I pray you recognize its goodness and you head out with the power of the Holy Spirit to locate Jesus at work all around you, because he's there. We have the eyes of faith to see him. So thanks so much, mark. This is so much fun. Peace the Lord, buddy, you too, man.