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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Why Do We Sometimes "Hush" the Holy Spirit? with Pastor Mark Surburg
Embark on a profound exploration of the Holy Spirit's transformative power as Pastor Mark Surburg joins me to illuminate its pivotal role from the early church in Acts to contemporary American Christianity. Our dialogue begins to unravel the mysteries of the Spirit's work in both communal empowerment and personal faith, revealing its subtle yet significant influence on baptism, confirmation, and the Lutheran tradition. Pastor Surburg's rich insights guide us through the complexities of the Spirit's portrayal in Scripture, shedding light on its diverse manifestations across different New Testament narratives.
Venture beyond the traditional understanding of the Holy Spirit as we challenge the rise of the charismatic movement and its sway in the global South. The conversation takes a scrutinizing look at the push towards experiential faith, while Pastor Surburg and I advocate for a faith deeply rooted in Christ through scripture and sacraments. Emphasizing the Holy Spirit's role in enlivening faith and discipleship, we navigate the fine line between spiritual experiences and the enduring comfort of the incarnational work of Jesus.
The episode culminates in a stirring discussion on spiritual warfare and the Holy Spirit's role in combating cultural hedonism. As we confront the challenges facing modern believers, Pastor Surburg emphasizes the pastoral responsibility to guide congregations toward the truth. We invite listeners to grasp the empowering presence of the Holy Spirit, live out a faith that counteracts societal norms, and further engage with these essential teachings to strengthen their Christian journey. Join us for this enlightening episode that promises to deepen your understanding and relationship with the Holy Spirit in your daily life.
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation podcast. I pray Jesus is giving you great joy today. I am Tim Allman and today I'm joined by Reverend Pastor Mark Serberg. Mark serves in Marion, illinois, for the past 18 years, chicago for three years prior to that. He has an STM from Concordia Seminary in St Louis in New Testament studies, specifically around 1 Corinthians 11. We may get into that, but the reason I reached out to him he wrote a fantastic article in the Concordia Theological Quarterly on the Holy Spirit, specifically in the Book of Acts. So that's where we're going to orient ourselves today. How are you doing, pastor Serberg? Very good Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a joy. So the Holy Spirit start out here. The Holy Spirit can often be the hushed member maybe of the Trinity. We work hard, I think, in our tribe and I'd say any Jesus's Lord tribe to elevate the work of the Holy Spirit, right? I mean, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, faith cannot come. The work of Christ cannot be attributed to us. So how should we rightly view and I know you serve in an LCMS congregation, as do I give us kind of the catechetical understanding of how we should rightly view the work of the Holy Spirit, mark?
Speaker 3:Well, the work of the Spirit is always to point us to Christ, to call us to faith in Christ and support that faith and then lead us through faith to continue to live in Christ, carrying out the life of good works and serving our neighbor. So the Spirit is the one who calls us to faith, sustains us in faith and continues to keep us in the faith.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no amen. I'm curious how did you develop a little bit of your story too? How did you develop your love for because you were in around Luke and Acts obviously Luke wrote the book of Acts and the role of the Holy Spirit. How did that kind of come alive in you? Because your work man, you've done a deep dive into the work of Holy Spirit in Luke and Acts, so I'd love to hear that kind of origin story.
Speaker 3:Well, I kind of came back into it in a sense. I became interested in the baptismal rite when Lutheran service book came out. There were some revisions in the baptismal rite and also the rite for first communion prior to confirmation. So I kind of became interested in that and started learning about the history of the baptismal rite and that led me into the sort of the history of confirmation and as a parish pastor I was very interested in that and so ultimately the background for confirmation is Acts 8.
Speaker 3:Historically, you know that's where it's been developed from. And so I got interested in sort of how do you, how do you respond to the way that sometimes the early medieval church dealt with Acts 8? And just in general, you know, how do you talk about of course it's very relevant how do you talk about baptism in the spirit in the book of Acts? So that was sort of the roundabout way I ended up there. So I've done a lot of work with confirmation and catechesis in the history of the church, especially the Lutheran church. But then also that led me to work with Acts 8 and the various baptismal texts.
Speaker 2:Okay, so this is so fun. Okay, so this is so fun. Tell me about the baptismal changes, because I was unaware, maybe in the Luke and Service book, how some of those changes the confirmation rite has changed as well.
Speaker 3:The language there. Now more is tied into the baptismal rite instead of the giving of the spirit and strengthening in faith, and then, along with that, the rite of First Communion prior to confirmation, which was something that was brand new in the agenda for Lutheran service book but offered the sort of formal means by which congregations can do catechesis with children prior to confirmation, having them begin First Communion and then ideally continue on with catechesis later on.
Speaker 2:Do you practice First Communion prior to confirmation?
Speaker 3:yeah, we do generally with children, ballpark, third grade. Um, if they're, if they're interested in receiving the sacrament, want to receive it, and their parents think that they are, um, you know, capable of of doing it, um, that they then, uh, during the year, attend uh catechesis we call learn by heart, which is a period from 7 to 7 30. We use the, the service of prayer and preaching, as the framework for that, and so the parents, uh, each week, are responsible for going through that, that particular question, the small catechism that we're covering, and then the children, parents, attend that together and we have catechesis in the middle of that service, um, talking about that part of the catechism. And at the end of the year then we sit down and have an examination, and here it's just the only thing you need to know by heart are the texts of the catechism itself, so you know those basic texts of the Ten Commandments, creed, lord's Prayer, etc. And then be able to answer, in a way commensurate with their age, the questions in the small catechism that deal with the different parts of the catechism.
Speaker 3:Having done that, then we do the rite of first communion and they can begin communing and of course that leads to then the sort of fuller catechesis we do in seventh and eighth grade, and so it begins among that process. You know it's been a great thing in terms of you know, first of all, we think the Lord suffers something we need. It's something that you know. Historically Lutherans have said that. You know children are able to receive as long as they've been catechized and examined. It begins teaching children at an age when they're interested in learning and open to it, gives them a good experience there and it sort of lays a foundation for, you know, future catechesis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, our congregation is very, very similar in the First Communion practice, to be sure, so do they. Just one other kind of detailed question here but is it based on the student and their family that then, like, the congregation recognizes them? So for us, a little bit larger congregation, there may be 20 First Communicants, right, and so that's it on Monday, thursday, traditionally. You know, a little bit larger congregation, there may be 20 first communicants, right, and so that's it. On Monday, thursday, traditionally For us, they all kind of go through that training together as families. But yeah, does yours kind of, as they kind of finish training. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:No, no, it's on the same schedule because basically they'll go through this learn by heart, which goes walks through the catechism and the cate catechesis year, and so it always finishes about the same time, perfect.
Speaker 2:So the the origin of going back to what you said, the origin of the flood prayer in the baptismal liturgy, is kind of fascinating when you're reading through that. Sometimes it could man this this went dark fast. You know, as we're heading into, you got this, you got this little one and you know. And then, as they were, they don't know, and his, his family, was drawn out. So we're drawn out, you know, uh, through the waters of baptism it. So talk about if you know why we added that part. I mean, I I'm not against it at all, but it it is interesting to think how that got added to our baptismal liturgy.
Speaker 3:Well, it was included in some of the early baptismal liturgies that Luther wrote and actually the theology of that. He really drew deeply on the early church. There's a lot of stuff there that is quite a sawdust. The case with Luther is not original. With him, instead, it's sort of this typological understanding of how God works through these means of water in the Old Testament, and so it was sort of one of those things that was reacquired. So there's this deep meaning and sort of dropped out of some of the Lutheran liturgies and was brought back in an LSB, which is a number of factors you know have appeared there like that.
Speaker 2:So good. So you referenced Acts 8. Go deep into the story of what is going on in Acts 8 and the role the Holy Spirit connected to baptism. Would you tell that narrative just a little bit, Mark yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, in Acts 8, we've had the martyrdom of Stephen at the end of Chapter 7. And then the believers, apart from the apostles, are scattered. We find that Philip, who at this point has just been identified as one of the seven, a deacon, goes down to Samaria and begins to preach the gospel, and when you look at the language he uses and the miracle he performs, it's identical to the things you see Jesus and the apostles doing. So it's this legitimate ministry, and people are called to faith. They believe. Even Simon Magus, who has been involved in other kinds of arts, believes and is baptized.
Speaker 3:But then we're told that the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon them yet. And then John and Peter go down in order to lay hands on them and pray that they would receive the Spirit, and in doing so, then the Holy Spirit falls on them and pray that they would receive the Spirit, and in doing so, then the Holy Spirit falls on them. We don't hear an explicit description about tongues or praising God, but Simon then asked to be given this power of giving the Spirit because he had seen that the Spirit is given through the laying on of hands, and the fact he saw it seems to indicate that there was something very similar to what we find at Pentecost and also in chapter 10, with the Gentiles and.
Speaker 3:Cornelius. So it's not explicitly stated. It's rather understated, probably because Luke is really going to highlight that when we come to Cornelius, but it's certainly suggested, and so we have a kind of strange situation of a spiritless baptism, apparently, and people who are also described as believers but have in some way not received the spirit, and so that's sort of the strange setup that you get in that text.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the book of Acts is a mind bender and I love how in your article you talk about the difference between the way Luke and Acts speaks about the role of the spirit and we could almost in my mind I was almost thinking like a Eastern or Global South kind of communal perspective and the way then Paul then writes in a much more Western, individualized role of the spirit for you, yes, he's for us, for sure, but but the spirit comes, comes for you. I'm thinking Romans, chapter six, et cetera. So, yeah, talk about, talk about the different way, because the spirit is in the book of Acts, appears in a variety of different ways yes, to create faith, but then to mobilize the church, the sending right of the church. So talk about that communal kind of global South and maybe the Westerners the Apostle Paul kind of brought as it relates to baptism.
Speaker 3:Well, it would be difficult to play those off against each other, because obviously those writers are from the same context, but it's just a different emphasis.
Speaker 3:So, as you mentioned, paul is very much talks about the individual and he's sort of focused on that. So you know, first Corinthians 12, three will say that it's only about the Holy Spirit. You can say Jesus, lord, and Romans eight nine will say that if you don't have the spirit, you're not a Christian. And so it's very focused on the conversion of the individual. Luke, on the other hand, is dealing with groups, and so he is describing the movement of the gospel into different groups of people. He's not so much concerned with describing conversion of individuals. Instead it's this broader movement of groups, and he's also obviously not narrating it in the same way that Paul does. He's writing a narrative about the account of the church, so he's doing it in a different way as well. So we don't expect him to speak in the same way.
Speaker 3:And for Luke, the primary emphasis is on the really background of that is what we call the spirit of prophecy in Second Temple Judaism, which is the idea that the spirit gives revelation and wisdom that can result in speech but doesn't necessarily have to be in speech, that he provides insight and understanding and that then this can come forth in speech.
Speaker 3:That is caused by the spirit. And so Luke sort of picks up on that understanding of the work of the Spirit and emphasizes how the Spirit gives wisdom and insight and empowerment for the mission of the church in carrying it forward. Now, that's not to deny that he does see the Spirit at work in conversion, because we keep hearing about the Spirit at work in relation to baptism, and it's not to deny that the Spirit also is involved in the life of the Christian and how he lives. There certainly is that aspect in Acts, but that's really not the primary focus for Luke. Rather, it is the Spirit who empowers the witness of the church through witness revelation and insight in the ways that's going to come forth. And so he's going to talk about the spirit in a way that's a little bit different than Paul and by understanding that it will sort of alleviate some of the questions we get, especially when you get to chapter eight and the things that are happening there with the Samaritans.
Speaker 2:That's good, that's good. So let's talk about our Lutheran roots here just a bit. Would you make the case and this is not argument, I'm just trying to learn it, but would you make the case that our Lutheran teaching leans more toward Pauline understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit?
Speaker 3:And in general the whole I mean the entire church has been so profoundly influenced by Paul and the way he speaks about it. That becomes one of the challenges. It becomes a difficulty if you take the categories that Paul has given us and expect them to apply and overlay 100%. You know over Luke, the way he's doing it, it's just it's a little bit different approach. So certainly theology on the whole has been strongly influenced by both Paul's way of speaking. Also, you know, of course, the Gospel of John, because it's so theological. There's a sort of natural affinity to that and that's why Luke, when we read him, sounds a little bit different. We're kind of like wondering what's going on, because he is simply describing things in a different way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wonder, I wonder if our charismatic brothers and sisters and I, you know, I think we have some things to learn, to be sure, and some things to be aware of and wary of, maybe the misuse of the miraculous gifts of the spirit, if you will. It could be tongues or prophecy, words of knowledge, et cetera, that are found in those tribes. But it's interesting. Let's just stay here for a minute. What are your thoughts about the global South and why the charismatic movement, maybe in a in a more communal understanding, is taking deeper root now? To be sure, we have some Lutheran communities that are growing in Africa et cetera, but by and large, especially in lower income communities, third world countries, the, the charismatic church, is vastly exceeding our more orthodox Lutheran churches. Any thoughts about why that could be, and are they really leaning a little bit more into the chaotic nature of the spirit, if you will, in the book of Acts? Any thoughts there, mark?
Speaker 3:I don't know, you know, in terms of what the explanation is. I think there is always a draw for the experiential, and people are sort of led to that. Of course, the excesses that go with it, you know, are certainly a concern, and so that's something that we need to be aware of, and I think where you don't have a focus on the means of grace and the way that God works through that, you go looking for other sacraments.
Speaker 3:And so I think, some of the influence of the charismatic movement in that way, unfortunately, is a result of, you know, sort of rejecting or downplaying the means by which God does work, you know, in baptism, in the sacrament of the altar, and instead looking for him in other places. And so you know the power of suggestion is very strong as well. We have to acknowledge that Not everything that's going on is necessarily the spirit at work. Sure, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Emotivism is alive and well. Are you into philosophy at all? Who have you hung out with as it relates to philosophy, just?
Speaker 3:show your sort of classic background.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:All those kinds of things, sure.
Speaker 2:I'm reading a book right now called after virtue. Let me grab it and it's. It's called have you, have you heard of this book? I was actually referred to it by Dr Okamoto, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, he said this is cause we we had him on just recently, last there I may be saying that wrong McIntyre after after virtue, and he's he's making the case that all of the philosophers, apart from a tell us, apart from a, an end, are leading us toward ways that ethics and reason leave us, leave us really, really wanting more.
Speaker 2:And the reason I'm bringing this up and I think this is where an olive branch may be toward our charismatic brothers and sisters to understand the need of the more, as God has revealed it in scripture is the sacramental reality that we have an end. Our end should be death and destruction, but because the sacrament of the altar has come, we receive forgiveness of sins. And then what? The end of it all is? Life and salvation, the resurrection reality when Jesus comes, and that is that is ultimately the gift of the Holy Spirit. Because and I'm so what Jesus did I'm landing on a question here, but what Jesus did? His inauguration of the kingdom Mark. He started to preach, he started to do miracles, he started to proclaim that the kingdom, the righteous reign of God had come and people were not only healed physically. But I love the story of the man who is, I think, paralyzed and dropped down. Forgiveness of sins is our ultimate heart need. So can we go back or past what is kind of the emotionalism of the charismatic movement to say, hey, this, whatever the healing is or whatever the word of prophecy is, unless it's connected to scripture, unless it's connected to the voice of Jesus, that the Holy Spirit is the one that enlivens faith and calls us to the words of Christ, we could end up going down a path that leads us to and this is why I bring this up the wrong, the wrong end, which is, and I would say, locating me and my experience as that ultimate end. I need a fresh. There's a song out right now, a Fresh Wind of the Spirit, and some of the song is actually really good and some of it's like, well, fresh, like the spirit has always been in me. He's always claiming, like I don't know what would be actually fresh, if you will, because he's always. He's always fresh, because he points me by grace, through faith.
Speaker 2:So this book wrestles with emotivism, emotionalism and how, at the end of the day it does not satisfy or lead us toward a desired end.
Speaker 2:It has to be and this is the heart of our Lutheran theology right, it has to be about passive faith, something extra nos grabbing onto us, changing us, reminding us we're Christ even in the midst of suffering and sorrow and loss and despair and depression, or else this whole thing isn't going to work.
Speaker 2:So I say all that to agree with you that the gifts of the means of grace, the word and the sacraments and the mystery therefore of it, are such a gift I've said this an awareness of the work of the Spirit, pointing us to the gift of Christ, could be a gift that we receive an awareness of the work of the Holy Spirit, the Acts kind of model that the Spirit was just falling in a number of different ways. That could be something that we as Lutherans could become more adept at speaking clearly into. And then I think the means of grace, the sacraments, are what we get to offer the wider church. Any comments to that kind of a little bit of a rant there on philosophy not satisfying that deep theology centered in the work of Christ is ultimately extra nos. What does satisfy Mark?
Speaker 3:Well, ultimately, the satisfaction we seek is going to be incarnational, as you said, it's just Christ is coming to us through his means. I think, as Lutherans, one of the places we have fallen short is recognizing the way the Spirit then provides the means by which we seek to live in Christ and seek to live in relation to our neighbor. And that is, I think, a shortfall, and it's sort of very much a Pauline theme in terms of the way the Spirit is at work in us in order to lead us to faith active in love, and so the theme Luther returns to again and again. I think there's a hesitancy among Lutherans to speak in that way and recognize the work of the spirit in leading us and prompting us to actually live Christlike lives, and that's a place that we need to address, I think.
Speaker 2:Agree. So why do you think and you can paint with a little bit of a broad brush here as we're trying to shape the culture of confessional, mission-oriented Lutheranism today. So why do you think we've struggled with that, mark?
Speaker 3:Well, I think there's a fear of works righteousness that's always lurking in the background.
Speaker 3:For Lutherans, works have always been a concern in terms of how you talk about them. I think one of the issues has been a concern that to talk about how Christians live is law, and there is this sort of false understanding that all the law is going to do is condemn people and show them their sin, which fails to recognize that the spirit uses the law both to teach us, to guide us on how to live, and also the Spirit uses the law to repress and compel the old Adam, so that as the new man fights against the old Adam, the Spirit aids in that struggle. And so the preaching of God's word that we identify as law is not only a harsh condemning word, but it's a word that the Spirit actually uses to assist the Christian and aid the Christian because of what he's doing through the means of grace, to live in ways that do reflect God's will. And so I think a hesitancy to sort of speak the way Paul speaks in exhortation, I think has been sort of an important component of that.
Speaker 2:It sounds like you're a three functionfunction or three-use of the law.
Speaker 3:Certainly Well that's what we confessed in 4 and 6. But there's been sort of a functional denial of it in many circles where, if I later in my sermon talk about how Christians should live, all I'm going to do is put people back under condemnation. That is not in any way. That doesn't follow the biblical model and it doesn't reflect what we as Lutherans claim to believe about the work of the Spirit through the law.
Speaker 2:I agree I've had a lot of conversations around this topic of late. Mark and I can't read like Ephesians. You've got the first three chapters which are like grace upon grace upon grace, new identity by grace you've been saved. First three chapters which are like grace upon grace upon grace, new identity but grace you've been saved, et cetera. We all we know that you're now created in God, for Christ, for good works there, ephesians two, 10, but then you've got all these teaching. I'm thinking Ephesians five on men and women and husband and wife. You know there's this and it doesn't feel like the Apostle Paul. And obviously Ephesians 6 put on the full armor of God. You know the sword of the spirit which is the word of God. So it doesn't feel like Paul has any kind of guilt over kind of shaping the character the Holy Spirit led, character of the early, early church. Are you reading Paul the same way as I am no, exactly.
Speaker 3:No, you know he moves. I mean it's not found in all his letters, but it's certainly you know. You look at Romans and Galatians and Ephesians and Colossians it's very prominent that in the latter portion of the letter you find all of this is exhortation, this paranesis, and he's not saying it in order to show people their sin. He's doing it because in Christ they are new creation and so you know this is how you live and as he expresses in Galatians 5 and Romans 7, obviously we still face the struggle against the old Adam that's why you actually need to say these things but that he does think it serves a positive role in talking to Christians about how to live and that the Spirit is going to use that word in order to help Christians to live in ways that reflect Christ.
Speaker 2:Useful. So let's talk about the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. A lot of times we can think man, where was the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament? So how does the Holy Spirit of the Old Testament shape your Luke and Acts understanding of the Holy Spirit? I'd love for you to just give you know 30,000 feet in terms of the understanding of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.
Speaker 3:Well, the recognition is, we've never been without the Holy Spirit. The event of Pentecost sort of gives this false understanding, as if, you know, the Spirit had not been around. We find the Spirit gives wisdom and skill for those who make the tabernacle. We find that the Spirit falls upon people like David. So we see the work of the Spirit. In the Old Testament. It's in terms of the specific work that the Spirit is going to do now, especially after the ascension.
Speaker 3:Acts 2.33 says that Christ has ascended to the right hand of God and has poured out what you are seeing and experiencing, and so what's new and different is that the Spirit, who has always been there and has always been creating faith, is now the one who has been poured out by Christ specifically to call them to faith in the saving work that he has accomplished.
Speaker 3:And so it is part of, as Acts 2 says, in the last days I will pour out my spirit Peter actually adds that phrase to the quote from Joel 2, the recognition that this is the last days and the spirit is at work in a new way in order to bring people to faith in Christ and bring God's saving work to consummation.
Speaker 3:And so there are one of the interesting things about Luke is that there will be multiple outpourings of the spirit. So you have you know, it's the spirit who, through whom Christ is incarnate. It's the spirit who is poured out on Christ at his baptism for his ministry. It is Christ who pours out the spirit at Pentecost for his ministry. It is Christ who pours out the Spirit at Pentecost. These aren't different spirits, obviously, but it's the Spirit being poured out for new purposes, new works, a new nexus of activity, and that's what we sort of need to recognize about that language that Luke picks up, that he can talk about multiple givings of the Spirit. This is not as if you didn't have the Spirit present, but it's the Spirit present to do something new, some new purpose that he's carrying out which is tied to God's saving work and sort of the economy of salvation as it's playing out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. So what is it about? And I think this is doubling down on what you just said Jesus says in the locked up a room peace be with you. And then he breathed on them receive the Holy spirit. Right, that's kind of wild. But then he says, go back and wait for the Holy spirit. To like, didn't you get, just give it Jesus. But no, you got to go back and X, x, two has to take place. So talk about that kind of juxtaposition. Uh, what did they need that was not with them, after Jesus already breathed out the spirit he's got great breath, by the way. I love that he breathed out the Holy Spirit upon them. So just go a little bit deeper on that kind of juxtaposition of Jesus bringing the spirit but then the waiting for the Holy Spirit in Acts 2.
Speaker 3:Well, in John 20, of course, the gift of the spirit is tied particularly to the forgiveness of sins and we see in that the gift of absolution.
Speaker 3:And so, within the context of John, it seems to be the gift of the Spirit in applying the forgiveness of sins. Yeah, true, john baptizes Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, whereas in Acts, then and of course we each have two different writers with you know different emphasis. In Acts, then, we're going to find it's going to be the work of the Spirit in empowering and carrying forth the church to take the gospel everywhere, which is of course going to include the gift of absolution. But Luke has this much broader focus in terms of how the spirit is going to empower the church in order to carry forth the gospel. Um, you know sort of each stage in its progression, and so you have sort of two different emphasis there. I think you know, with John, it's tied specifically to the forgiveness of sins that's going to be given. With Luke, it's now this is the means by which God is going to carry forth the church to bring the gospel to a greater range of people.
Speaker 2:I love that. So talk a little bit more broadly about how the Holy Spirit changed the life of the early church and throughout the book of Acts, I mean early on. I'll just give you my take, because we're in it right now as a church. It's amazing to me that what Jesus did, how he lived, and his way and his word really is the exact same kind of path, and it's the way of the cross that the early church starts to, starts to live out. They have a preaching ministry, and then there's a ascending ministry, and then there's suffering that enters into their story like really, really quick I'm thinking of acts, chapter five and we cannot.
Speaker 2:We must obey god rather than men. Right, and the holy Holy Spirit then brings to light the spoken word, the work of Christ. For them, it's the story of Jesus. It's a way of the cross that the early church starts to live out, and there's no other way, from what I see, mark, that that could take place outside of the work of the Holy Spirit. Talk about the juxtaposition, though, of the early church and the apostles, in particular, walking the way of way of Jesus. Have you seen a lot of those parallels as well?
Speaker 3:Well, sure, and you know and you see in, just in Acts two.
Speaker 3:But you have the promise of the spirit Acts two, three, eight and then you have that summary statement of the life of the church at the end of chapter two, which is, which is saying you don't ever have the spirit.
Speaker 3:You don't have him actually narrating the Spirit being given. He promises through baptism. What you find instead is a description of how the Spirit is leading the life of the church. So the interesting thing is, on the one hand, you have the Spirit leading the church, both in sharing the message and also in living under the cross and then also living as a community, and on the other hand, you have the Spirit's role in basically forcing the church to move forward, which is, of course, in Acts 10, with Cornelius this is this dramatic event to say that the gospel is going to be for Gentiles as well and then, likewise with Paul, calling Paul to actually go on the first missionary journey. And so it's the Spirit then prompting the church to continue. Every time the church might sort of stop. It's sort of prompting it to continue to move on and share the gospel in a broader sphere.
Speaker 2:Through a variety of means, right, even suffering, descending out of the church through suffering. So let's go into Acts, chapter 10. I think it's one of the. I think we should have more humor or have a little levity in terms of looking at the story of scripture and the Acts 10 story with Peter as the Holy Spirit has fallen upon them, and I kind of read if you remember Ferris Bueller's day off Peter's, like, can anyone here withhold water for baptizing those who have received the Holy Spirit, just as we have? I kind of see Mark saying Bueller, bueller, anyone going to make it? Nope, nope, they're in, they've received.
Speaker 2:And the message now has gone from Jerusalem, judea, samaria. It's moving out to the ends of the earth. Acts 1-8 is being lived out. So tell a little bit more of the Acts 10 story and how, because this is, it's the Gentile inclusion that shapes a lot of the New Testament. To be quite honest, what do they have to do? And because they received the Holy Spirit, there were these kind of concessions that were made circumcision, not necessary for the Gentiles who had received the Holy Spirit in the same way that the apostles had in Jerusalem. Any comments, though a little bit more about the depth of the ratification of Gentiles coming in there in Acts, chapter 10?.
Speaker 3:Well, acts 10 is often described as the Gentile Pentecost. There's sort of a hinge that really provides help to understand what happens in Acts 8 and Acts 19,. Because we find all of these textual connections between Acts 2 and Acts 10, that in this dramatic event, the Spirit, of course, as he's preaching the gospel first of all. Obviously they have the whole manner in which Peter ends up there in the first place, so the vision of Cornelius, and then Peter's vision and just seeing with the food that already, in terms of what God considers clean, don't consider unclean, and then going to Cornelius and speaking the gospel, and then, of course, speaking the gospel, the spirit actually falls upon them. They begin to speak in tongues and Peter's response is, of course, if the spirit is here, then baptism also must accompany it. And it's one of those things that shows us that it is an exceptional circumstance that demonstrates that God is going to include the Gentiles, but at the same time it shows us that the spirit and baptism go together, because he assumes this must be the case. They must receive baptism, baptism.
Speaker 3:And then in chapter 11, then, you know, luke basically narrates the whole thing again, as Peter has to explain and defend this action to the Jerusalem church, and he actually talks about how the spirit fell upon us, just as on us at the beginning, and so he actually directly connects the event of Pentecost with the experience that Cornelius and the Gentiles have. And so it's very intentionally used by God to identify the Gentiles as objects of the gospel, to show the church that the gospel is going to include more than just Jews, and it's an event that very clearly ties it back to what happened in the church of Pentecost. It back to what happened in the church of Pentecost.
Speaker 2:Yes, we don't often in Lutheran circles talk much about the Holy Spirit falling upon us. We talk about the Holy Spirit these are prepositions, right, but we should be nuanced here and very specific. We talk about the Holy Spirit within us creating and sustaining faith, but not necessarily and this is going back to kind of our communal and individual distinction not necessarily the spirit falling upon not just me but but us. I've, I've also. I'd love to get your take on this. I've also heard a lot recently and and been in deep reflection about how like interpretation of scripture is best. It doesn't mean that we can't have my, me and Jesus in the word time, but is best when we're in a community of people, small groups, small church, whatever it happens to be, as a Holy spirit then falls upon us, as you know, the gospel comes alive, the faith is kindled and sparked and the movement of the spirit connected to the work of Christ goes out. So talk about that falling upon invitation. Maybe for us as confessional conservative Lutherans, that invitation, it's strange, I think.
Speaker 3:I think it's important to recognize that language is very specific to that text. In fact, one of the things that's striking about Acts 8 is that language of falling upon. This is not the way that Luke normally speaks, and so I would be careful to extrapolate out of Acts 8 and use that language to describe what can be expected normally, so that it is a very obviously it's the Samaritan Pentecost. There seems to be perhaps even an expectation that there should have been something dramatic happening because the Samaritans were being included. It seems that it was even thought that something like that should occur, and so, in the same way that I don't think we would expect what happened with Cornelius to be the typical way that we expect Christians to experience things, it is held up as a unique, significant event in the work of the gospel, just like Pentecost. I don't think we're going to expect to be a normal thing that's going to happen that way. It is clearly a salvation, historical moment. In the same way, the description of the falling of the spirit in Acts 8 is also meant to describe a specific action by God in moving the gospel forward.
Speaker 3:The Samaritans, of course, are this very strange category.
Speaker 3:They're not Jews, they're also not Gentiles.
Speaker 3:They held this sort of weird position between the two and there's this long history of antipathy between the two groups.
Speaker 3:So it's a very significant move.
Speaker 3:It's something that Luke has already emphasized earlier in the gospel, but in particular it is a specific group that's being included in the church and God is demonstrating that this movement of the gospel to this next group is something that is pleasing to him. So that language of falling upon seems to be very distinctive in describing not what individuals would experience and there again you sort of want to read it in a Pauline way, that's sort of what it's applying to me as an individual but instead what we see is God working with these groups of people, and so it is. This, along with Acts 10, is showing the God acts in a dramatic way to show that a group of people is going to be included now in the work of the gospel. So I think that's the most helpful way to take that language is, if we're going to keep it in its Luke in context, not to individualize it but rather see it within this salvation historical work of the spirit, showing these different groups of people are going to be included and that's pleasing to God.
Speaker 2:I'm going to have two things going through my head right now, so one, a question and then a comment. Two things going through my head right now, so one, one, a question and then a comment. One does the apostle Paul and I'm going through my memory bank right now ever talk about the Holy Spirit falling upon us? Not to my knowledge, not to my knowledge either. Yeah, yeah, and I think that's. I think that's helpful, and we should always read scripture in context. So let me play a bit of devil's advocate here. Say, a congregation was stuck Right there. The love of Christ and their love of neighbor and their love for sharing the gospel with their community in a, in a give to a leader, a pastor in that congregation to lead them with evangelical fervor, because I hear you kind of being cautious about well, like this deep prayer for the Holy Spirit to fall upon the community so that they have the conviction to evangelize their community. Would that be something you would be cautious against and if so, why? Mark?
Speaker 3:Well, no, I think we're always praying for the work of the Spirit to lead us, to guide us, to enlighten us, all those kinds of things. So you know, I have no problem saying we would pray for the Spirit to be at work in our people, those kinds of things. I'm just saying I would be cautious about using that language of falling upon, because I think you have to take it out of context in terms of what Luke's actually doing with it in order to apply it to both individual Christians but even to a broader congregation. He is talking about and uses it only in a specific instance, with the Samaritans, which, in the context of Acts, you know, clearly shows God at work with groups advancing the gospel.
Speaker 3:I don't think that in any way stops us from saying do we need to pray for the Spirit to be at work? And, you know, ask the Spirit would open hearts and lead us to share Christ in ways that are bolder, and you know those kinds of things. I don't think that that are bolder and you know those kinds of things. I don't think that in any ways contradicts. You know what we believe about the work of the spirit.
Speaker 2:Love that, love that. So much this has been, this has been so much fun. Thank you for your generosity of time and helping me and our listeners grow closer to Jesus and the power of the power of the Holy Spirit. Let's talk about just a couple more questions.
Speaker 2:Coming down the home stretch, the Luther, and obviously in the book of acts, obviously in the work of Jesus, you've got a spiritual warfare that's so profound. Um, we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the powers and principalities of this dark age. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the powers and principalities of this dark age. What is the role of the Holy Spirit in confronting Satan and the demonic realm, which I firmly believe?
Speaker 2:Satan is having a heyday today and many people are so unaware, I think CS Lewis and reading the last few tape letters, et cetera, just keep them kind of dull and fat and happy. He drink, be merry tomorrow, you know. Kind of dull and fat and happy he drink, be married tomorrow, who you know. Kind of this nihilistic, fatalistic move is connected to hedonism today, and our, our culture is so profound and I, we are in a spiritual battle today and I think I think pastors have a profound responsibility to help their people recognize how they fight. If you will, connected to the word, connected to the power of the Holy Spirit, any power or words of instruction do you think today for the church, in these dark days when I think the demonic realm is all around but we just may be unaware? Go ahead there, mark.
Speaker 3:Well, the recognition that it's Christ who has brought the reign of God and that reign continues now in our midst as the Spirit is at work through the Word and through the sacraments, that the reign of God continues to come to us now as we pray. You know, thy kingdom come. That is a prayer for both the Holy Spirit to be at work through those means and continue to draw us to them and ultimately, you know that's what we're pointing people towards is the place where the Spirit is at work through those means and continue to draw us to them. And ultimately, you know that's what we're pointing people towards is the place where the Spirit's at work and then in the Word, in which the Spirit provides the guidance for how we're going to live in the midst of that world. And that's where the need for a lot of the language that Paul uses about actually instructing Christians how to live and talking about how you're going to live in the midst of a pagan world that's what Paul's addressing.
Speaker 3:That, unfortunately, is, you know, many of us are encountering. Again, that's the way the culture is going, and so that being equipped for struggle in that way, I think is really important for us as pastors that people need guidance in terms of you know how they're going to actually live in the midst of this world and how living as a Christian is going to be different, and the recognition that it's the Spirit who makes it possible. But if it's going to be possible, we have to keep continuing to go to those places where the Spirit is there for us, giving us strength and equipping us to then go forth and live in ways that reflect faith in Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, good, good. As you look at the United States of American context, since it's coming out in 2024,'s on a marginal and maybe even a steep decline coming up, what do you think? What parts of the culture drift today? Do you think the church and pastors obviously connected to the word, but man, we've got to double down on on speaking about this, or or else, or else. Yeah, go ahead. Any any thoughts there? Mark, I have my thoughts, but I'd love to get you to say something original here.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think one of the greatest challenges is, obviously, we live in a culture that defines everything in terms of sexuality.
Speaker 3:People define their own identity in terms of sexuality and the the New Testament's message about both who we are, because God made us, and how we now live in these bodies that have been redeemed, was something that was radically different in the first century world. In the first century world, I mean, the Roman government ran brothels and it was assumed, you're going to have sex with your slave and those kinds of things. And Christianity came along and said no, anything outside of marriage is wrong, and we had a completely radically different understanding. And unfortunately, you know, the world has again become a place that looks an awful lot like the first couple centuries, and so the struggle is, you know, it's one of the not the only one, but one of the chief struggles is going to be simply talking about, you know, how do we live with our sexuality, how do we live with our bodies, how are we going to live as Christians in the world that has, once again, this completely different understanding of things, and that's that's going to be a huge challenge for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when intimately connected to that, mark, is kind of the assault on the family. If you break down the sexual ethic, you, you break down the family as well. So, yeah, we, we pray for the truths of God's word to write in our hearts, to be confessed in our lips and to mobilize us to be a peculiar people in these days, to bring light to dark places, to offer people the life which is truly life, which is found in following Jesus, the crucified and risen one. This has been so much fun, mark. Thank you for your, your intellect, um, your, your service in your local congregation and your desire to shape our understanding of the Holy spirit, uh, connected to the words, in our Lutheran context. This has been a lot of fun. If people want to connect with you, mark, how can they do so, brother?
Speaker 3:Uh, well, my, my email is uh, pastor Mark, server at frontiercom.
Speaker 2:So that's that's probably the easiest way to do it. S U R B U R G. So so good to be together. This is the American reform reformation podcast. Promise to have weekly conversations with leaders, theologians, like Pastor Sturberg today. I pray you've been blessed. If so, like, subscribe, comment, share wherever it is you're taking this in and we'll see you next week on American Reformation. Thanks so much, Mark. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.