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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Power of Grace: From Mormon to Lutheran with Ryan Barlow
Ryan Barlow's journey from Mormonism to Lutheranism is a story that pulses with the transformative power of grace. As he shares his personal odyssey on our podcast, we witness the trials and triumphs of embracing a new faith tradition, and the impact it has on family, community, and personal identity. Navigating the waters of change, Ryan's insights offer a beacon of hope to those wrestling with their own spiritual paths, and his leadership at the East Mesa campus exemplifies the potential for faith to unite and inspire.
This episode is stitched together with candid conversations about the emotional complexities faced when transitioning between faiths. We recognize the courage it takes to question the familiar and lean into the uncertain. Listeners are invited into an intimate space where we grapple with the fragility and resilience of family ties amidst doctrinal shifts. Here, we find not only challenges but also the shared joy and liberation that faith in Jesus Christ brings into our lives, reshaping our perspectives and strengthening our bonds.
Our discussion isn't just about personal growth—it's a testimony to the dedication required in nurturing a church community from the ground up. Ryan's story underscores the beauty of volunteer-driven unity, the humility necessary for authentic leadership, and the power of a congregation united in prayer and service. His transformative journey, punctuated by moments of vulnerability and unwavering faith, serves as an inspiring reminder of the reformation spirit that drives us forward in our mission to share the gospel and support one another in our collective walk with Christ.
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray the joy of Jesus is your strength and that you're ready. Man. We've had some super fun conversations recently and on youth ministry, kind of raising up the next gen. Today's conversation with Ryan Barlow is going to be a heavy focus on deep faith, a love for Lutheranism, really just biblical Christianity, which is all Orthodox Lutheranism is. And then and that's not all it is, that's a big deal. And then it's going to be focused on evangelism reaching those who need the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:Ryan and I have been partners in the gospel here at Christ Greenfield for golly eight, nine years now. Ryan, you came to Christ Greenfield and you can tell your story, but I just remember you coming to our kind of what we believe kind of new members class and just soaking up Lutheranism in general. Ryan came out of the Latter-day Saints community and his ministry now extends to East Mesa as he's one of our leaders at our East Mesa campus. He's also a student in the Luther House of Study, nearing completion there. Very, very proud of the way the Lord has been at work in your life. Brother, how are you doing?
Speaker 3:Ryan. Hey, so good, and all the praise to Jesus. So thank you so much for the encouraging words, Tim.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. So how are you praying? Opening question how are you praying for reformation in the American Christian church?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean sincerely praying for unity. It really breaks my heart to see so much division, not just within, like a single denomination, but amongst different denominations. And I know that Christ's body, his big C church, is better together. And if we could work together for the sole purpose of reaching the lost or those who have walked away from faith in Christ, it would just be so much better. And I know that.
Speaker 3:Also, when we're divided and we kind of appear as this kind of broken, disagreeing, discombobulated Christian church people, you know the world looks at us and they say, you know, hey, these guys can't even get along with each other, and not just not get along and work together, but some of them are against each other. That's just super unattractive. And then when you see that, you say if they don't like each other, they're not going to like me and they're not going to want to be any part of what we're doing, what Jesus is doing. Um, so I'm praying for unity. I'm praying for open hands, open hearts, uh, a posture of humility, uh, as we approach mission with Jesus, uh, to to find and and save the lost. So that's, that's what I'm praying for for the church, church and America.
Speaker 2:I love it, I love it, I love it. So, growing up Mormon, tell your story of coming to faith. And I'd be curious, because you know not that our Mormon friends don't have division, to be sure, I mean, there's a number of actually splinter groups in kind of the Mormon tradition, to be sure, but what was your perception? Go back as you tell the story, what was your perception of Christians in general and maybe help us see, I mean, had you ever heard of Lutheranism? You're a major part of a Lutheran denomination. So, yeah, tell that story. What was it like before becoming a baptized triune, baptized follower of Jesus?
Speaker 3:All right, so fast forwarding a little bit. When I was working at Starbucks on Belliston, baseline, I met the first Lutheran ever. So it's like I was like 22, 23. I had no idea what Lutherans were.
Speaker 3:But the Mormon perception just of other faiths, other denominations, is that they're lost. They don't have the whole truth, the wholeness of the gospel, they don't have the book of Mormon, they don't have modern day revelation, they don't have a modern day prophet. The Bible is something that's been corrupted over time by people that are power hungry and want to change the message, to control people and that sort of thing. Or you know, a monk just sitting down and making an innocent mistake and just missing a word here and there, or going from Greek and Hebrew to English and getting lost in translation between languages. So there's a lot of argument against the validity of the Holy Bible as we have it today. So when you approach someone who's LDS and you want to talk about, uh, your beliefs, um, they're already just kind of viewing you as someone who just doesn't see the whole picture, that doesn't have the whole truth. Um, so does that kind of answer that question?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. It does so tell what was your gospel? Jesus grace, epiphany moment, slash moments yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, so again back to Starbucks. Uh, epiphany moment, slash moments, yeah. So again back to Starbucks, about 18, 19 years old it's about over 20 years ago now but getting ready to go on a mission and working at Starbucks. So I go to LDS seminary in high school and your seminary teacher says hey, you guys want to talk to you after class, gentlemen, let's meet in my office. You guys need to go see your bishop and get your lives in order. And so we make appointments with our bishops and you kind of confess everything and he says you know, here's the plan of action, the penance, the repentance plan, that sort of thing. And you guys need to start reading the Book of Mormon because you're going to be out there in the world. You need to start reading the Book of Mormon because you're going to be out there in the world and you need to know what this is about. So, even though you've been taught from this book your whole life, you need to read it and believe it, and in the Mormon tradition, to believe the Book of Mormon means that you have asked God as you're reading this text. God, is this true? And if it's true, let me know. And you would have what they described as a burning in the bosom. And as I was reading the Book of Mormon, first of all, I never had, like this, even a thought that there was any kind of ring of truth to this text. It just didn't read like it was true and I never had that burning in my bosom, so I just didn't believe it and so I didn't say anything to my parents about this. If you don't go on a mission, there's ramifications for that. They're lifelong in the Mormon community. But working at Starbucks, I did have friends who are Christians and talking to them actually them talking to me about faith, and me responding. They said hey, we've got this organization that we know of, it's in Mesa called Concerned Christians, and we bought you this book and we got you a what Would Jesus Do bracelet and you can wear this bracelet and read this book and this booklet from Concerned Christians.
Speaker 3:Tim, each page had three columns on it and each page addressed a deep, you know theological, big picture topic and this ranged from like the nature of God, jesus, justification, sanctification. And so it said what does the Bible say? What does Mormon scripture say In the third column, what does Mormon doctrine say? And none of them were in alignment Mormon doctrine say, and none of them were in alignment. And so because of that I started doing research on the beliefs of the Mormon church, the history of beliefs, where these doctrines came from, who said what and where, and what were these people actually like?
Speaker 3:And I learned some really disturbing things. And I won't really go into detail, but basically, you know, I was in the family office, the den back then, and at the family computer my mom was at a desk kind of adjacent to me and I said you know, mom, is there more than one God? Because Mormons believe that God, the father, had a father who was a God, who was a God, and it just kind of goes on into infinity. And she said, well, there is more than one God. And I said, okay, so are we polytheistic? And this is where it really started to get very difficult for me, because it just felt very wrong and that's kind of just where it went. And then those same friends at Starbucks invited me to attend church, which was like a limited atonement, limited election church, and that just didn't jive with what I had been reading about in Romans from Paul and I just had a kind of a rough start.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, and you kind of get to where many folks who come out of LDS arrive at, where you're almost like this whole thing, this whole Jesus thing, is absolutely a mess. Tell that story.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so within the, what I was taught as a child and as a young adult was that Jesus is one of God's children, of which you're a part of, and so Jesus is your brother. And yet Lucifer is also your brother, satan, and there was this kind of war and battle within heaven. And, and you know, I was taught that because I was a valiant warrior in heaven, that I was born into the Mormon church to be given the whole truth and I was actually held to a higher standard and I was actually better because of what I had been given in this life than other people, christian or not. But, anyway, like, jesus is your brother and, yes, he is the Savior, the one who atones for the sin of mankind. But it's very different because it's not the same Jesus you read about in the Bible, especially John and Colossians, and throughout scripture, the whole narrative of scripture, even the old Testament, pointing to Jesus, uh, the coming Messiah for all mankind.
Speaker 3:Um, so in the Mormon church, you kind of view yourself as like, like an embryonic God, like you're, you're in development to become God and there's a super high standard of like perfectionism that you live into and which, of course, you can't. So you don't view Jesus as as God, and so it's just very different. So when you learn that Jesus is God, uh from say, uh from the from, from the Bible, you start to ask yourself, well, if my LDS beliefs were a lie, then how can I trust this? And you start living in like anger. You start not really trusting anything or anybody when it comes to religious type of topics, and so you kind of fall into three categories.
Speaker 3:You become like that while you're either strong in your faith and you just see people as lost as an LDS person, as a Mormon, or you've read about and been exposed to, kind of the corruption within the church and the false teachings and false prophets and what God's word says about false prophets, and then you start to question. That's when you're kind of the angry person. You see a lot of that, like a lot of people are very outspoken against the Mormon church online and that's just an expression of their feeling betrayed and it's kind of like almost like revenge. Um, and then you find people who who, uh, were brought into faith through hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ and they're just like, hey, cool, my eyes have been opened and I'm just so happy to believe in Jesus, and I wish that would have been me. But I have some LDS folks that kind of like you know, receive the good word and believe, and then they can just kind of move beyond their past and then life is good under God's care and love, through Jesus and love through Jesus.
Speaker 2:So the uh, the wild thing about your story is and I think there's a lot of folks that have come into kind of confessional Christianity, biblical Christianity, um, who, who have family members who are still then, still then LDS, right, and so your entire entire family, your mom and your dad your is now departed and yeah, um, your dad, your dad is kind of on the journey. He listens to you because you share the word, you proclaim the word consistently at east mesa and things, and yeah, what's that? What's that family dynamic like?
Speaker 3:yeah, um, you know, just off the top of my head, you know, when my mom passed away, it was really hard for me and because, um, going to her her funeral, you know there was nothing really about Jesus, uh, his life, death and resurrection, defeating sin, death and the devil for all who believe in his name. It was all about how she loved the Beatles, um, how she was such a faithful temple worker. It was all about works and just kind of her personal life, which is great. That stuff should be not all of it, but that stuff should be in there. This is who this person was.
Speaker 3:But where is the hope? Where is the hope? Where is our certain hope? It wasn't in the resurrection of Christ. The words used were our hope is in the plan of salvation and this is like something that's a Mormon doctrine. But if you look at the plan of salvation and I've showed this to our students at the Christ Greenfield School it's like a diagram. It shows different paths to different kind of levels of salvation and what it takes to kind of get there. And on this diagram I said to the students what do you guys, what do you guys see here? What's missing? What's missing on this plan of salvation.
Speaker 3:And there was silence for a moment and nobody kind of you know, you're not getting it, because they never seen this thing before. And I said do you see a cross anywhere on here? No, do you see the name of Jesus anywhere on here? No, and that's exactly what I saw at my mom's funeral Uh, nothing, uh, it was all about what she had done to earn her way to the celestial kingdom. Um, so that was really frustrating, um, but as far as family dynamics go, um, I, I think my family thinks I'm nuts, so you know, uh, my, my family thinks I'm nuts, so you know, uh, my, my family does really well and I've kind of walked away from that to to to love Jesus and his people.
Speaker 3:And, um, my dad, I mean, I used to work with him. I worked with him for about a decade and he was like I set all this up for you and you're just walking away from it. You know, this is crazy and um, so that's kind of where he's at Um, but this is crazy and um, so that's kind of where he's at Um. But my sisters, you know, they, they, they do take offense when I, when I talk about the church, whether it's.
Speaker 3:When I say the church, the here I am being Mormon, the church, the Mormon church. Um, they do take offense to that and, uh, it has been hard because my nieces and nephews are not ever at our house to hang out with my boys, jonah and Micah, and I think there's a worry that I might indoctrinate them or baptize them when they're not looking, you know, something like that. So, but yeah, there, there is definitely like within my family, they they not my immediate family but my extended family views me as an apostate and so I am someone who has been predestined for outer darkness, which is like the Mormon version of hell.
Speaker 2:It's worse than me right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot going on there, but there is an underlying love within the family unit that they will never die. You know they can call me anytime and I would be there to help and I know that in most circumstances they would return that, that favor. So, but it's very superficial, tim, very superficial it's, it's thanks for sharing.
Speaker 2:Ryan, yeah, praying for you and I'm honestly praying for your family to yeah, to come to the grace of God, because I didn't really share about my dad.
Speaker 3:He came to Jonah and I's baptism at the Gilbert campus you actually baptized us and then he's been to a Lent service a couple of years ago and then he and my stepmom my stepmom practices Christian science, which also upsets my family but my dad, my stepmom, came to Easter service this year and it was just so amazing and I walked into that space ready to proclaim the risen Jesus and hallelujah he's risen and so excited. And I saw my dad and I was like now I'm nervous, but I did, I proclaimed it. Well, jesus did, but it's his story, but yeah, so it's cool to see. Like you know, we don't know the end of the story. You know like God is working in this brokenness and he will use what's broken for his good, his, his glory, and, and so I just keep praying, I just keep praying.
Speaker 2:So so you know that it's a life, this side of eternity, because of sin. Genesis 3, very, very messy, yeah, and we're idol-making factories, right.
Speaker 2:Yes, all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We're desiring things and our desires, apart from the Holy Spirit, are turned toward the flesh, turned toward working, achieving, gaining in our own self-righteousness. And the gospel of Jesus is the best thing ever because it kills, crushes and raises us up anew, empowered by grace, through faith, to follow after Jesus, the risen one, who's made us his own by the waters of baptism, like it's the greatest story ever. We've been set free, we've been set free from the law, you know, and it's the freedom that we walk in as followers of Christ is so, so cool. So we don't and we also trust like, hey, if the Holy Spirit wants to work and bring people, like that's the Holy Spirit. All we do, we plant seeds, we proclaim the gospel and we pray that the Holy Spirit opens hearts to the saving, uh knowledge, of Christ and him crucified and risen from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep in the faith. And so I think we want to live with great humility, philippians 2,. Jesus is the humble sacrificial servant. And so I want to be a part of a church and a church body that has like eyes, and you know, open, and a head and a heart that's open to learn consistently and, having been in a largely LDS community now for over a decade, I think there are some things we can learn from our LDS neighbors, and I think there's many things in the left-hand kingdom.
Speaker 2:So, as it relates to our role as citizens, namely here in the United States of America, I think we need to lock arms on the values of the family, the need for moms and dads to raise up godly, kind, respectful humans for the next generation. There are many, many things that we should unite on, and I actually I have a about a once every quarter gathering with a bishop, a LDS bishop, and like their youth pastor and their and their contacts, and we're developing relationships, and a lot of times we just turn the car cause. We've we've discussed, slash, argued, debated about grace you know the definition in the LDS around grace. It's a different thing, but when it comes to like caring for our community and caring for families, man, we are aligned. What should we learn? All that being said as a preamble, what should we learn from our LDS neighbors? Ryan?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's a hard question for me, like because I grew up in that context and that's a that's a hard question for me, like cause I grew up in that context. I know that I had a very low view of myself because of how I viewed myself in relation to God and his law and the works that were required, the ordinances that you could not really participate in if you weren't, you know, perfect. I mean, I grew up in a culture of perfection and that perfection had to come from within yourself. And of course that doesn't work out because we're all sinners. But I mean, growing up, I can't think and maybe this is just my experience, right, but I can't think of one time when someone said, ryan, your sins are, they are forgiven. I never heard that it was you can be forgiven. Or if you do X, y, z, perform this penance sometimes it's public and embarrassing other things, if you do these things, then you can ask for forgiveness. But nobody ever said, even in light of that work to get to the point of forgiveness or asking for forgiveness. Nobody ever told me that I was forgiven and, like I said earlier, like was taught that you were born as somebody better, you're at a higher standard. You need to do better, be better, whether it's in work or school or sports, everything you had to just be better in, because you're one of God's chosen people, you're a pre-God right and people You're you're a pre God Right, and so that was the pressure that I had on myself. That's a pressure my friends had on themselves. Uh Well, I won't.
Speaker 3:I was going to say something about what my sisters are dealing with, but that's their personal business. But I mean, there's just a lot of trauma that can come from that. And apart from the gospel, the true and pure gospel of Jesus Christ that sets you free, that forgives you as a free gift by grace, through faith, you're going to live in that pain and you'll wear a mask. You'll pretend like, hey, it's all good, I'm doing really well, but deep down you know something's not right. There's no reconciliation. So it's hard for me to answer that question, but I will say, like you said, left-hand kingdom a lot of great stuff uh, low incidences of drug abuse, alcohol abuse uh, a lot. A lot of self-discipline pornography that destroys relationships and marriages, uh, community engagement, the importance of family uh, work ethic, you know, loyalty um, there's a lot of good stuff on the left-hand kingdom kind of side leadership, youth leadership development, yeah oh, big time.
Speaker 3:Just a pipeline is nuts, but it's also required for salvation, so it's required.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of a caveat there.
Speaker 2:That makes it a little easier.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm here because I'm passionate, but I'm here because if I don't, I'm not getting to that super cool planet later.
Speaker 2:It's hard for me to fathom, as a lifelong baptized follower of Jesus, the terror of thinking I'm going to hell, yeah, yeah, If I don't add up. You know the terror, even that, like Martin Luther had. You know, I've got to do X, Y and Z. It's just, I've never experienced that and it just seems like I mean, I can place myself there mentally. It seems like it would be crushing. It would be like a night. It'd be kind of like a nightmare. It is a nightmare.
Speaker 3:And when you hear the gospel Tim, it's like waking up from a nightmare, like that's the only way to describe it, like the worst dream you've ever had. And you're waking up gasping for air and your wife's like what's the matter? What's going on with you? It's like that, but times a hundred, when you, when you actually receive and hear and the spirit works faith within you. Um, because, yeah, you go to bed every single night and you're like God hates me, he hates my life. I'm embarrassed, I'm ashamed, I'm guilty. Uh, I know, like, based on this standard, I'm not even close. When I have to stand before my creator someday, it's going to be wrath, condemnation and, by the way, the whole host of heaven is going to hear about everything I thought and did and said and all of my sin and perversions and everything else is just going to be everywhere for everybody, and just the thoughts that are going through your head. Imagine being a teenager living with that. I mean, it's just nuts.
Speaker 2:So I'm curious. I've got and I could probably ask my friends. I have LDS friends golf with consistently and I don't know that they all live under terror. I don't know if I think some of them actually think they're doing enough, or they're on the way at least, to do enough to achieve. So, on the one hand, you've got this remarkable eternal insecurity, but then, in the other hand, you've got this remarkable hubris, this ego, this pride of thinking that we can somehow like the Christian journey is right, right in the middle of that.
Speaker 2:I'm a broken, fallen sinner, apart and this is Orthodox Christianity. Now apart from Christ. Now I've been crucified with Christ and the passions of the flesh that I once walked in have been nailed to the cross with Jesus. No, no more as far as the East is from the West, gone from the account of God. And now he views me, and it's his work. He views me as a saint, not a eternally damnable sinner. Right, that's the gospel of Jesus. But I, unless you live in grace, that's the only place that gets you to that middle point of who you are apart from and who you are with Christ, because the only two extremes are remarkable hedonism, pride and then radical insecurity. Right.
Speaker 3:That's right, and I don't know, that he it's probably.
Speaker 2:It's probably when you're on this side of the insecurity, you could probably get to that point where you're like I don't really care. And that's why I think a lot of people, if they leave LDS, they may go on these crazy benders, they may just like go nuts, you know, in terms of giving into the flesh, because I can't get this God off my back anyways. Good, he doesn't even exist anymore, Right. But then on the other side you're like well, I'm, I'm, I'm working my way to be God of my own planet.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, that's beyond. But I don't. I don't hear them talk like that. They won't. My brothers won't talk that way. They cause they're remarkably humble guys. But I think if you get, if you pull back the curtain, I think there's gotta be this sense of no I'm actually working it out Anything there, ryan.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that there is a sense that you're working it out, but there will always also be a sense of have I worked it out enough? And so again back to these masks that people wear. I mean, I think that you're also, as a uh, an evangelist for that church you're called to put on. I don't want to, like you know, be rude about this, but, or, like you know, but you're called to kind of put on a show, because the way that you appear on the outside, people are going to think that you know, hey, this guy's got it together. I want to know what's going on. And that's, you know, that's why we cut our hair this way and dress this way.
Speaker 3:It's the external, which is not what God. God doesn't look on the outward appearance, he looks on the heart. And you can't necessarily show the heart with, hey, yeah, I've got it put together. It takes these trusting relationships built over time, where you start to really see people open up. I mean, I guarantee you and it's not just Mormons, any, any, christian, any, any, what, anybody you get to know them long enough and you put yourselves in a cave and an avalanche and you can't get out. You're going to start telling each other. I really struggle with this. What about you? Yeah, yeah, I didn't. I thought you know, I thought I should just keep that hidden and I, you know, I, I, and that's just kind of what I think is going on there, because everybody knows, and Paul said no one is righteous. And God has written that on our hearts to point us to a savior who makes us righteous.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so tell the story of coming to confessional Lutheranism and hearing you know for the first time, and then hopefully multiple times Christ for you, forgiveness of sins, the for you it's so good, it's so good, it's so good.
Speaker 3:So my wife grew up in the ELCA in Minnesota and when we had Jonah, we were out sitting in our Coleman inflatable hot tub because we live in East Mesa, we're high class. And so we were out sitting in our Coleman inflatable hot tub because we live in East Mesa, or high class. And uh, so we're out there in this hot tub and we're talking and drinking a Coors light and I was like, hey, you know what? You know, I think we ought to get connected to a church body, because Jonah, our son, who was probably one or two then and and uh, I said, if he looks to us as an example, he's going to grow up to be an absolute failure, because I'm a failure I'm not talking about you, honey, just me but that's 50% at least. And she's like, no, no, I agree.
Speaker 3:So we kind of had this conversation like, well, what do you want to do? Because I had gone through the RCIA with the Catholic Church and that didn't work out. And we kind of explored different churches around the Valley, church shopping, as people do and um, and I said, hey, you know what? I took this class at ASU, world history, and there was this guy, martin Lufus, martin Lufus, uh, and she was like she's like Martin Luther and I was like, yeah, yeah, that guy, and like uh, 1920, he had like some paper he nailed on the Pope's door. So, no, it wasn't that bad.
Speaker 3:But yeah 1517, the 95 Theses I said this guy reformed the church. And my understanding back then you know I've learned that my understanding back then was like hey, the church is built on Peter and you know, people corrupted it and Luther comes along and reformed it, so that must be the right church. So we get on Google and we're looking for Lutheran churches. And I had no idea I didn't know there was like an ELCA, lcms, all this stuff. But I knew that Christ Greenfield was next to the riparian preserve in Gilbert, arizona, and I grew up next to that. That was like my stomping ground in undergrad where I'd go to this riparian preserve kind of outdoor setting and lakes and things to talk to myself and memorize test notes. And I was like, yeah, all right, that's been there since I've lived in Gilbert, let's go check that out. And we did. And we went to the contemporary service and I grew up in a very reverent worship style background and we went into this contemporary service and and I grew up in a very reverent worship style background and we went into this contemporary service and I was like this is a rock show, I do not like this and but we just kept going and my wife encouraged me to keep going. And then, you know, tim, we, you know I, I wanted like then it was like right around fall time and Christmas, my wife bought me a Lutheran study Bible and a book of Concord, the CPH edition. I love it.
Speaker 3:And as I'm reading this, I mean my mind was absolutely blown and I was like this is it, this is. I mean we talked about reconciliation, but this is the reconciliation between scripture and how we believe, how we practice. Um, and it's all connected to scripture. And uh, through that I was just like everybody needs to know this, you know. And so I just started telling my neighbors about it and it was like super embarrassing for my wife, so I would be like pulling out the trash, can, hey, do you guys know who Martin Luther is? And my neighbors come over like what are you talking about? Keep it down. And a couple of neighbors got baptized.
Speaker 3:And, tim, I think around the same time, you invited me into this like 6am kind of Sunday morning discipleship group where we were digging deeper into scripture. We actually started with Romans, which I had just fallen in love with. And you know, it's just out of that, like out of this, like hey, I love because I was loved first and I want to share the love that loved me first with others. And you know it's just been since then like can't go back, can't go back.
Speaker 2:Well, it's so. What's so cool is when someone, an adult, converts to Christianity, Lutheranism, et cetera. Man, you guys are like the most on fire and geeked out, in the best sense of the word, for like deep theology and what I've known, and I could list a number of different people. I mean Tanya Hilton has a similar story to you, who's a part of the Unite Leadership Collective.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:When that happens, it's like the Holy Spirit says go, let's go, there's no holding back. It's not like this is cultural Christianity, we're here to do our Lutheran thing. It's like no, the liturgy is the best thing ever because it invites us into the story of God, like the world needs to know. Forgiveness of sins, as we confess consistently, and the real presence of Christ to forgive us our sins. Are you kidding me? This is awesome, you know. And just a love for the scripture, a love to go deep in the faith. And that's what I saw. That's what I saw in you, man, and and it would have been sin to not fan into flame what the Holy spirit was doing in your life. And I didn't know exactly where it would go. And for those of you who are listening, who listen to Lead Time and talk about pastoral formation, we're not going to go deep into that right now. But what I knew, this guy is a son of the valley, he's eager to go deep into Lutheran theology, he's becoming a servant, he's leading. And then the Luther House of Study, in partnership with Kairos University, kind of picked up and gosh. Three, three and a half years ago you enter as one of our first kind of learners. A student, pastor, vicar in our context and not recognized yet by the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. If you listen to this guy talk about Jesus, just a little shout out to you academics who take this in, I would have a conversation If you want to go deep into Lutheran theology, which that's not exactly what we're doing up to this point, but if you want to go deep, ryan is game. If you're a faculty member that wants to explore bringing Ryan Barlow onto the roster of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod in time via colloquy, he's a real deal. He's a real deal. He's a real deal. But that's not why you even entered into this.
Speaker 2:You entered into that program saying I don't, I just want to serve locally. That's right. And there's a pilot program we're testing because we need more bivocational, co-vocational leaders, second career leaders. And then Pastor Jake Besling, who had gone through CMC, served, faithfully, launched our East Mesa campus. He ends up COVID hits and then we relaunch and he ends up taking a call. And then we're like, oh my goodness, what are we going to do? And we've got I'm the only full-time ordained guy on a decent sized church, we've got an SMP part-time pastor in Jeff Sutherland. And Jake said hey, I think Ryan could step up as a spiritual leader there at the East Mesa campus. And that was about gosh, almost three, two and a half years ago or so. And man, the Lord has been really, really good having you be one of the primary leaders at our East Mesa campus. So let's transition to multi-site. You're trying to engage the East Mesa community. What are the best parts of launching a multi-site campus? And talk about some of the hardest parts too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so thank you again, tim. You're so edifying. But I would say the best part about a church plant is like you're going into a community and you're part of Jesus' mission. He's calling you out. This is the ecclesia, like the real deal, like being called out, sent out to places that don't have the love of Jesus, or a community to bring the love of Jesus to this community and to invite them into relationship with Jesus and his people. And as a church plant, at first you don't really see a whole lot of that because you kind of go with a launch team and it takes some time to build momentum. But as you're building momentum and you start to welcome in members of the community within these kind of mile radiuses that you serve, it's the coolest thing ever Because you know, if Jesus hadn't led us here, to this place, to this location, uh, this beautiful family, this beautiful person would not be being served by Jesus in this way. Uh, yeah, there's other churches and things, um, but uh, would they be served in this same way? No, um and uh, it's just. There's nothing better to like uh, being in the local church as a community and being able to be there to offer that, you know, and it's just awesome.
Speaker 3:And with the church plant as well. Jason Gray, who was singing in our church a couple weeks ago for Mother's Day, he put this post on Facebook and he said what I love about church plants is everybody there is all in, lance, is everybody there is all in. And it's so true because 80%, tim, 80% of our congregation, is on a serve team and the other 20% or maybe say let's say 15 to 20% uh, their spouses or children of someone who is serving. And so, jason's right, they are all in and it's consistent. And as they are all in, as they stand shoulder to shoulder to set up this church and take it down and pack it up every week, they're building a relationship, they're going deeper in conversation. But like, hey, how is that thing going at work that we talked about last week? Or you're about to retire? Tell me how that transition?
Speaker 3:And they're there for each other and especially for men. Men need to be doing things with their hands and they're busy and that's when they start talking. And the guys, and how they connect with one another. It's amazing. The women they can just be off chilling and they'll talk about everything anyway. But to give the guys something to do with their hands so they can get that kind of nervousness out of them or whatever it is, and they start to connect and those relationships are deep and the age gap doesn't mean a thing. Like these guys just love each other.
Speaker 3:And in our community that we serve there's different, like coffee shops and the wine bars and restaurants, and they're just like hey, after church today, let's go bring your family and let's go get a beer or coffee or whatever and let's continue this conversation. So you see this beautiful picture of Christ community under his love and care. And it's just like it's not just in our little gym that we rent, you know, on Sundays, um, but it extends out with our, with our members, and it just kind of keeps flowing throughout the week and I'm so grateful for that, I'm so grateful.
Speaker 2:So we're doing some creative things. I mean, you're you're constantly with our leadership team at different community events, at fairs, et cetera, harvest fests, and we're putting on concerts out in the park and all of that. We're doing whatever we can to create awareness that, hey, there's a church here at Silver Valley Elementary School, Christ Greenfield, and you're welcome here. You want, we want you to know you belong here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, uh, the subdivision it's like, uh, going to be like 1800 homes within like a 10,000 home kind of new development in the East Mesa and Arizona. Um, but within our kind of like, we'll say like a square mile or two. The HOA there has like a cluster that's in the center of the community with like the pools and the gym and all these different really cool meeting spaces, and then the church that we set up is just like not even an eighth of a mile down the road from all the community HOA stuff. But the HOA, uh, it's very professionally run. Um, they have Christmas events, easter events, kids events, um all kinds of stuff where they gather the whole community. And we built a relationship with the HOA, at first with the HOA and now it's with the whole community, um, where we said, hey, we're a church, we'd love to come just be present to be a blessing to this community. How can we serve, how can we help? And in those opportunities, in that process, you get to know people who live there and even if they don't come to church with you, they still know who you are and they're building trust and relationship with you. And if somebody else says, hey, I'm looking for a church. They say, well, I don't go there, but they seem like nice people.
Speaker 3:But there's a lot of really cool opportunities. We've had Palm Sunday in their main park twice now. We had Veterans Day. We had concerts, barbecues. One of our most faithful servants, bill McDaniel another one of our victors. He is huge on smoking meat. He's got one of these smokers on a trailer that we pull out there. There's just so much cool stuff going on out there. There's just so much cool stuff going on and outside of a church plant opportunity like that. You know like we're right in the middle of this community, so it's awesome. It's so cool, it is awesome.
Speaker 2:So let's get into your leadership. How has your campus leadership evolved over the past three years?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a, that's a like seems like a very long conversation. I would just say, coming from a secular leadership position and transitioning into, like, a position where you, where you're leading people who aren't being paid, or you're leading people who work with you part time, it's very different. Part-time, it's very different. What has remained consistent for me is like I really and this is just kind of how I'm hardwired, but trying to always lead from a place of like, humility and leading from example, and I've never done that before in a church plant. So I'll say it's easier said than done, especially like if you're leading from a place of stress or fear, because after Jake left, there were several Sundays where I would be sharing a message and you look down at the congregation, you see all these empty chairs and you're just like man, this just isn't working. There's something not happening here. Because as I entered into that position, I thought, boy, I'll just do A plus B will equal C. If we really kill it on Sundays, people will come to us and that's what we'll do. And we also lacked just to be transparent, we really lacked the integration of spiritual rhythms in in leadership. Um, so you know, it was just really hard, but because of that, you know, I started leading out of a place of fear and anxiety and I thought I was like really good at hiding this. You know, um, I was putting on my own really thick, happy face mask, um. But there was someone on our team, uh and I'm so grateful who picked up on this and he said hey, ryan, something's going on here. This isn't right, because you're not being yourself, you're not filled with joy, you're not filled with hope. The way that you communicated at our last meeting actually breaks trust, and I'm just letting you know, out of love, that this is not the way to go about it. So they called me out on it and so I was very grateful. This person has called me out twice now on things like this, and it's fantastic. So I pick up the phone and I start making phone calls to my team members and talking and apologizing and asking for forgiveness and confessing and just trying to get things back on track with the relationships. And it wasn't even that bad. It's just I work with a group that's very in tune with how people are communicating and feeling and that sort of thing, but so I get it. So that's kind of where I started, because it's like I've never done a church plant before. This is really hard. I have no idea what I'm doing. My team really is new to this too. They've never done a church plant before.
Speaker 3:So about a year ago we just surrendered and we're praying Um, and we're praying hey, you know Jesus. Our deepest desire is for people to come and know Jesus people in this community. But we've learned like we can't do this alone, like our ways, lord, are not your ways and please show us your ways. So we began, um, like we meet at a coffee shop in the community on Tuesdays for our staff meeting, and before our meeting we said, hey, let's, for 30 minutes each week, start prayer walking this community. And what this looks like is you're walking this community and you're saying, hey, as you're walking, you pray for what you see, you pray, you ask Jesus, what does your kingdom look like here in East Mesa? And then you recognize that Jesus is with you as you're walking, he's leading the way.
Speaker 3:And so this intentional prayer became a big part of our work. And then we began to set aside kind of similarly like tightly held Christ Greenfield, east Mesa traditions for the sake of meeting felt needs for the community. We have like a full service Sunday school now so that parents can release their children into our Sunday school program and, as a couple or even as a single parent, just relax, worship, hear the message be served. That's been really successful and I'll tell you, because of this work, you know, in the last six, seven months our kids' church experience and this ain't no lie it's increased. The attendance has increased over 200% and I know we're working with smaller numbers, but it's increased 200% and our attendance, our weekly attendance, has gone up by 65% and so we've got baptisms being planned. People are more deeply connected with each other and community. We're exceeding generosity goals and I really, truly believe this Tim that Jesus is with us and he's answering our prayers just like he promised he would in his word.
Speaker 2:So I guess you know just to go ahead, go ahead, no, no, just summarize.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I mean just to say like, yeah, strategy and goals, coaching, you know leadership styles all of this is very important, but, more importantly, inviting Jesus in and asking him to lead you and your congregation was what we were really lacking. And as soon as we got into that, we've seen God's faithfulness. So it's been humbling, and every time somebody says how's things going, I'm like I'm just, I'm so grateful, I'm so grateful, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny how Satan gets into all different types of churches and leaders and influences us toward man's strength. Right If we just do the right thing, if we just get worship right, or even, on the other side, if we just do the community engagement stuff and show up there, but it's like we miss, we just walk past Jesus who's like waving on the side of the road and saying, hey, you want to me in?
Speaker 2:That'd be cool, I want to join you because I'm going to reveal some stuff to you. And so we talk about. Prayer is the work, which is not work at all. It's really just dependence, radical dependence. Trust, faith in God to work. God, you want us, you want a church here in East Mesa. There are hundreds and thousands of people who are around that don't know your goodness and grace, and and bring them here, and when they come they'll find a hospitable place and we're going to boldly preach the word.
Speaker 2:I have to pause right there and say you're, you're, proclamation of the gospel, bro, You're, you're living into your voice, your, your proclamation style. That's unique to Ryan Barlow. You're not me, You're not Jake or Michael, anybody else. It's a very unique experience to you. But here's what I know. I mean you're on fire for the Lord. That's what everybody sees. You love deep Lutheran theology and you want to, by the Spirit's power, to get the gospel into people's hearts and ears, ears and hearts, so that they could follow after Jesus. That's it. And you've grown. You've grown tremendously, as both a leader and a proclaimer of the word. So, coming down the homestretch here, what are the top three things that you're learning as a student in the Luther House of Study? I think there's a lot of information and misinformation and all this type of stuff that's about like is this really very Lutheran, or what sort of folks are you guys raising up over there? I'd love for you to dismiss any rumors, too, that competency-based theological education lacks academic rigor. So go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So, growing up Mormon, everything in Luther has to tell you is mind blowing. Because I had not encountered Lutheran theology, some things that really come to mind, you know, right off the top of my head. It was like the, the two kinds of righteousness, um, the upside down kingdom, right, god using the least likely of us for his glory, the cross being the primary example of of the things the world uses is, is like evil for his good. Um, but there's so many other examples I love.
Speaker 3:I love God's upside down kingdom because you look at, like Noah and David, and just the list goes on, the disciples. That's me too. Right, you can use broken, simple people to still work your kingdom, to grow your kingdom. The clarity that our confessions bring, the book of Concord, it's content that it helps so, so good for teaching, preaching, even in visitations, just living the Christian life in general. And what I love about the Lutheran Church is too like we don't claim to have all the answers, right. We have the doctrine of a hidden and revealed God and that's okay because we trust Jesus, so you can have peace in that. Like you just say hey, jesus, you said so on these things, these are your promises and the rest of the stuff, like I'm not God, I never will be, I don't have to understand and know all things and I can't. Instead I just focus on you, your cross, your life, death and resurrection and what that means for me and everyone that you put in my path.
Speaker 3:And then as far as Luther house goes, like in terms of academic rigor, I mean I have friends and peers who are seminary students at Concordia and and we have compared reading lists. You know, when we kind of start a new semester and it's 95% the same, like the same exact publishers, authors. I mean we read CFW author, they read Gerhard Ferdy, we all exact publishers authors. We read CFW Walther, they read Gerhard Ferdi, we all read Luther. Scripture interprets scripture.
Speaker 3:Here I stand, I can do no other. Our theological conversations that I have with friends they end up at the same points, the same conclusions. And I remember starting the very first class with Luther House. It's called Reformation and they'll just straight up tell you they'll be like hey, welcome. But you're probably going to have to repeat this class Because it's a lot of work, it's a lot of reading, it's a lot of writing and it's just a lot. And I think I mean I have like 320 credit hours in undergrad because I was flipping around so much. This one class was the hardest class I've ever taken and it's just. It can destroy your family.
Speaker 2:That's not selling the program Not really.
Speaker 3:But the cool thing is asynchronous, right. So you learn, you're off work, I can spend an hour, I can do these things, and you have a rhythm of learning and reading and things and you get into a better rhythm, especially if you're an adult student. But it's very conservative, it's very confessional, very, very confessional. And the Lutheran House content and I've told the folks at Luther House as well the delivery is truly, truly, truly undersold and over-delivered. Like it is such a good value, like you can, you can complete a whole masters of divinity program for about the same cost. It's going to one semester at Arizona state university and all it takes is like, hey, turn off the TV a few nights a week and get into your studies and three to five years, knock this thing out and just be better prepared, better equipped to love and serve God's people. But yeah, it's not easy, it's not easy, not easy.
Speaker 2:No. So why do you think churches should explore Luther House and competency-based education, theological education in general?
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, so growing up under you, tim, I know that the Big C Church has a big lack in leaders right now, and not just the Big C Church, but your local church has a great need for leaders, and this isn't just leaders who have heads that are full of knowledge.
Speaker 3:We need leaders with good character, with solid theology, real world experience. And if you look at your congregation you're going to see you have a lot of people that you're serving who have great character, who have a lot of life experience, and you combine that with some solid Lutheran theological education and you've got a bench of passionate disciple makers who can go out and share in the labor of seeing Christ's kingdom grow. So it doesn't have to be just, you know, the one guy, the pastor, right. So that's where I see this need and they're answering the need, you know, and it's affordable, it's approachable. So there you go Mentor-based, all the things, yeah it's so good, this has been so much fun.
Speaker 2:So there you go, mentor-based, all the things. Yeah, it's so good, this has been so much fun. Last question If there's one thing about Christ Greenfield that you think every church, no matter the size, should emulate, what would it be?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the thing that I've experienced, that I see making the biggest impact, is training up and releasing leaders, and not just people who are older, like a churchy person. These are people from all kinds of backgrounds, all walks of life, who have been gifted and they have a call on their life to go out and love and serve, teach, preach, whatever it might be, all for the sake of Christ's kingdom, and I see Christ Greenfield doing that. The other thing with Christ Greenfield is we've been taught and we do. We actually live this out. We quickly plan, we launch and we learn from new ministry opportunities, and this is what we call build, measure, learn, and then we live and serve from a place of true hope, true joy, because, hey, we're, jesus goes before us, jesus leads the way. It's going to be okay, it's okay. Failure is not fatal. Let's just learn from it, pivot and keep going Right.
Speaker 3:Uh, last thing would be like be willing to listen to and work with others who have different gospel expressions. Right, we're all on the same team, Um, and obviously there's there's guide rails for that. But, like, I just feel like we're very open to like, hey, if this is what the Lord is doing, like right here, right now, let's see where it goes. You know, we don't have to compromise our confessions or our values, but we can still walk alongside others that have a different kind of expression and just see what God wants to do. God is very big, you know.
Speaker 2:let's not put them in a box. So, yeah, I'm so grateful for you. I'm better because the Holy spirit called you in the waters of baptism to the Trinitarian faith and called you to be a leader here at Christ Greenfield. It's a beautiful thing. If people want to connect with you, how can they do so, ryan?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so email would be best, and my name is Ryan Barlow again, so you can email me at rbarlow, at cglchurchorg or even better, and man, this would just make my day, my month, my quarter. Come and visit us Sunday morning at 10 am at Silver Valley Elementary in East Mesa, arizona, as we lift high the name of our Lord and Savior, jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:So thank you so much. Amen. Thank you, bud. This is the American Reformation Podcast. Share is caring, like, subscribe, comment, wherever it is you take this in. We promise to have Jesus-centered, joy-filled conversations with leaders, just like Ryan, who have been brought out of darkness into light and are fired up to proclaim Jesus as King, king and Lord. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Hey, ryan. Good job, bud Appreciate you. Thanks, ryan. Good job, bud Appreciate you. Thanks, mike.