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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Faith, Film, and the Future: Art's Role in Modern Evangelism with Todd Freeman
How can the power of art transform the Christian Reformation? Join us for a compelling conversation with the talented Todd Freeman, a masterful screenwriter, producer, and director, who offers a fresh perspective on leveraging filmmaking to communicate the gospel authentically. Todd’s journey through the independent film world serves as a powerful metaphor for the church's need to embrace creativity and sincerity in evangelism. We dive into how Jesus’ adaptable ministry styles can inspire the church to engage a spiritually curious society.
The pandemic has reshaped our viewing habits, but what's next for the film and theater industries? Discover the evolving landscape and the rising profitability of independent films. We discuss the potential benefits for studios in producing more low-budget gems and the irreplaceable communal experience of theaters. Plus, explore the broader cultural shift towards reducing screen time in favor of deeper, more focused work and richer life experiences—a change even younger generations are beginning to appreciate.
Intrigued by the intersection of horror and Christian themes? We delve into the profound themes of sin and redemption through horror films, illustrating the battle between good and evil with a unique Lutheran twist. Learn about the intriguing rise of paganism and witchcraft and how compelling Christian narratives can address these spiritual curiosities. Todd shares personal stories of faith and grief, showcasing how faith can provide solace in life's darkest moments. This episode is a thought-provoking exploration of faith, art, and innovation, envisioning a future where the church harnesses artistic elements to reach a searching society.
Welcome to the American Reformation podcast, tim Allman here. Pray that the joy of Jesus is your strength. And today I get to hang out with my brother from another mother, my cousin by marriage, todd Freeman. There are very few people like Todd, and I mean that with all due respect. You have so many gifts. You're creative, you're a writer, a really, really amazing writer, screenwriter, producer, director.
Speaker 1:He's been in the arts for as long as I've known Todd, who married my cousin Sarah that used to be Allman, now director. He's been in the arts for as long as I've known Todd, who married my cousin Sarah that used to be Allman, now Sarah Freeman, also one of the teachers at Christ Greenfield here. So we're going to be talking about Reformation. We're going to be talking about the film industry a bit today. We're going to be talking about the ways that the church needs to embrace the arts and some of our vision, because Todd also leads our Red Braille studio, some of our vision for Red Braille. So this is going to be a fun conversation today, Todd. How are you doing, buddy? I'm doing great.
Speaker 2:Excellent, excellent.
Speaker 1:So for sure, I've been looking forward to this. How are you praying? Standard question. How are you praying for reformation in the American Christian church, todd? How?
Speaker 2:are you praying for reformation in the American Christian church, todd? Well, I think you know, I kind of live in like the smallest bubble possible. So everything that I view a lens through a lot of times seems to be through sort of like movies and those kind of things, yeah, or creative ways of reaching new people. Just the whole genesis of red braille, you know the, the idea that we're trying to explain the color red to people who can't see anything. Uh is is sort of the, the, the main idea behind it, and it has become, you know, sometimes frustrating to try and go like okay, do we? How do we reach um new people in new ways? Um, I was thinking about it yesterday quite a bit, the idea that so much so there's this new, there's, there's a new movie out that uh is is out from like a smaller distributor and they don't, you know, um, and the movie industry has kind of been going through this crazy ups and downs.
Speaker 2:Who knows, you know, if the biggest movie is going to make money all of those things so so this, uh, this company put out this movie, who I kind of know a few of the people um, from when I was more involved in sort of the independent film world, specifically sort of genre films, and they made this horror movie. And basically the idea is, you know, in all of those like 80s, the slasher movies, there's the Jason. He's kind of you know, lurking behind trees and then he disappears and then he shows back up. The whole idea is the movie of the movie is what if we follow behind the Jason guy, so we know what he's doing in the moments that other people are scared or hiding and running. So basically the way I sort of linked that in my mind oh, and it obviously did really well.
Speaker 2:It a a relatively low budget, under a million dollars, and its first weekend it made like 2.5 million dollars, okay, so a lot of that comes from people wanting to see things from new perspectives and the idea there's this idea of sincerity. And then it comes from, if it comes from a very real place, people can pick up on it easier now than they have been able to sort of ever. So the idea that as we go into this, you know, I kind of have my blinders on, ultimately, because I'm looking at through the lens of sort, of these creative avenues, how can we do things in both in new ways, but also look at it from different perspectives, but always, always, always, always be genuine and true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, let's go deeper into that. The church generally struggles with this dance with the unknown, what is scary, what is new, and as the culture changes today, I think we're going to go in one of two directions as the church, we're going to open up or shut down, right, and different churches and church bodies are going to make different decisions. And I always go back, Todd, to Jesus. I think that's a decent place to go back to.
Speaker 1:What was the posture of Jesus in the midst of a very diverse, you could say, Jewish, closed, law-based? What was the word of Jesus to that group, specifically the Pharisees? I mean, it was a word of law and repent, right, John the Baptist, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near, and so it was a word of law for them. But then for and I'm painting with a little bit of a broad brush here but then for the pagan, the outsider, the searcher, the seeker, the one who is sexually immoral, the broken, I mean Jesus, it was very evident for them that they're seeking. They're not finding, they're seeking.
Speaker 1:And so Jesus presents himself to them with a different sort of posture. They're attracted to Jesus because of signs and wonders, right Healing, extraordinary things, shows of grace, prophecy. I think of the woman at the well right Words of prophecy. He knows everything about me the good, the bad and the ugly. Could this be the promised one? And she goes back to her village. And if I'm going to make a decision right now, as the Holy Spirit is leading, especially in a pagan society where folks are, there are a lot of people right now that recognize the struggle that we're walking through is a spiritual battle right.
Speaker 1:And so is the church going to say we're not going to engage any of those artistic elements to reach folks? Is the church going to say we're not going to engage any of those artistic elements to reach folks? Or are we going to say you know what we're going to. We're going to go and we're making the decision right now with Red Braille, united Leadership and Christ Greenfield in particular. We can't choose the former, which is defense and protection. If you look like us, think like us, act like us, you can belong here. No, we're making the more offensive. The gates of hell won't stand against the call of Christ. Just come and see. Just come and see the one who's changed our lives, jesus. There's a more offensive movement. Anything to add to that, todd?
Speaker 2:No, no, I think that sums it up. It's, it's. It's one of those things where, um, my dad I know we'll maybe talk about this a little bit later, but my dad passed away this year Um, so I, uh, as I was sort of writing this, uh, this new movie that we're potentially making in the next year, um, the ideas of how, exactly what you're talking about, how do we, as Christians, um, sincerely share Jesus and the? The? The thing that I always come back to is all you got to do is literally come and come to church and find out, because he's there and he's going to show you. The problem is is, you know, how do we get people to just walk in the door Because Jesus is going to do what Jesus is going to do? You know, we have very little to do with any of it other than getting people in the door. Come and see.
Speaker 1:Yep, come and see. Yeah, that is the invitation, and when they come into our churches and there's a lot of folks in Lutheran churches here will they find hospitality, here will they find hospitality, people who will greet them, like, walk them into. If there's some strange things you know in the liturgy or the worship, I'm going to be a friend for you, with you, and you will hear the story of Christ and his love for the world in our, in our churches. And this move, this offensive move, I think a lot of times we're prone in the some of the debates, and folks listen to some of our podcasts and don't always like everything we say or the guests we have, and stuff like that. I think, though, the uniting principle is justification. We're not compromising theology as we go on.
Speaker 1:This is not going away from the truth of scriptures, the inerrancy of scripture, the revealed word of God, how Jesus comes to us in word and sacrament, makes his own in the waters of baptism, etc. That is a straw man argument that when we move into culture it's just trying to model what the apostles walked through as the gospel went in the book of Acts, from Jew to Gentile and Paul in Athens at the Oropagus. I see you have many gods. Let me tell you about the one God who created everything you see and don't see. Do we have that sort of evangelical fervor to get the gospel in, to proclaim the gospel into the ears of people? Praise God.
Speaker 2:And you're just doing it in very creative ways right now, todd, and I'm so grateful for it. So how has God things that sort of we've been talking about Obviously a place filled with a fire to do and get the Word of God out into the world, but also to invite people in, and always doing it sort of sincerely? So you know my background is my dad was a Baptist minister and then I met my wife and she happened to be Lutheran. But every time I would visit Christ Greenfield before we moved here, I was always welcomed with open arms and never meant to feel different or less than or any of those things. So you know, in that way, my view on just sort of theology and everything changed from that day forward forward, just because I was given the opportunity, with an open door, to see what I now see as the more biblical way of, uh, worshiping and following Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, praise God, I'm glad that was your, was your experience? Um, let's, let's go into behind the curtain, if you will, or behind the scenes into the independent film community. You talked a little bit about the indie market. I'd love for you to get us behind the scenes for what's going on right now in the independent film community and what are kind of the values, that kind of drive, that community. And because we're, as we start to talk about Wretch Like Me here prayerfully, our full-length film coming out here in the next year or two, um, we're gonna be rolling in a lot of those indie, indie markets.
Speaker 2:So educate us on what we're gonna experience yeah, I think I I think that a lot of what's um transpiring in the independent film world, like I said, um, people are looking at things differently. In a movie Like I I explained, you know, um, I haven't seen it yet, but you know the the idea that it's very well reviewed, but also from a different perspective and it also made money in theaters. Um, right now a lot of the conversation is you know, do we put it out straight to digital? How long after we're in the theater do we go to digital?
Speaker 2:Just all of these, because it's all like a muddy mess because of sort of those pandemic changes in viewing habits. You know, if you lock people sort of in their house, or at least partially in their house, more they're going to change their habits of viewing. I mean, it's just the nature of what it is. So the idea that there are simultaneously more avenues to get your movie seen. But the problem is is the market is more saturated because people see more opportunity. So a lot of it in the indie world especially, and I think some of the I mean some of the big studios are going to have to take into account the fact that these smaller budget movies are making much higher profit margin for them. So it's one of those things where a lot of people go like, well, maybe make one less 300 million dollar movie and then make how many you know independent films for you know like 10 million dollars you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like that many more so you know you million, you know what I mean Like that many more. So you know you can potentially, you know, studios tend to think in sort of big, big chunks instead of understanding that the more original content they have is now seeing better revenue in those sort of theater situations. So do you think, yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, that was it.
Speaker 1:So do you think theaters are going to be around? Is that going to still be a thing? And if so, I've heard a lot of people say, unless it's like a big blockbuster kind of super special heavy effects, I'm not going to maybe go because I can wait to see the drama, or even the horror film maybe. But there is something, so I'm just going to argue on the other side. There is something to being in a shared experience with a group of even 10 plus people in a larger room experiencing the jump scare or whatever it happens to be, rather than me just watching it nine o'clock at night, me and my wife, like it's a different thing. So what do you think the film industry and the theater industry looks like 10, 15 years from now?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know, I feel like we'll know more maybe in the next year or two, mainly because I feel like, um, theater chains are even starting to understand that like, oh, you know, sort of us staying in business Isn't going to be reliant on the next Marvel movie, because people just aren't coming to see them.
Speaker 2:But that's because of that sincerity question that we were talking about.
Speaker 2:A lot of these studios were just like oh well, if we make a movie and it's a spider-man movie, it's going to make this much money, but they lost maybe the, the focus of what it is and it's the love of what the, the story you're telling and what you're trying to say as, as opposed to just like, throw a bunch of money at it and put a guy who's swinging from building to building and it'll, it'll do well.
Speaker 2:But what's happening now is even like the younger generation, for example, my, my, my son, you know, in the last, for example, my son in the last, I'd say, six months to a year, has started to sort of understand like, oh, I'm on my phone in downtime moments and that's why he also loves going to the theater, because he doesn't have that second screen experience you sometimes do when you're watching a movie. So he's and he has like sort of this. They call it a burner phone. But burner phone is sort of a drug dealer term where you have a phone that no one can trace and if you need to get rid of it you can, kind of toss it out the window.
Speaker 1:Fuller is definitely not a drug dealer, though. No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:But the term burner phone is just the idea that it's burner and you can get rid of it and it doesn't mean anything. So he'll for weeks at a time now, just totally go to a burner phone and if you want to get a hold of him you give him a call and if you text him, there's a high likelihood it'll be a one-word answer back and he just is unable to do the things. That sort of have become this norm and that inspired me to start doing that more as well. And my phone, I put it on the charger when I'm done for the day and I don't turn it back on and I don't have it sitting next to me because I know that in a bored moment I'll pick it up and check something or whatever. But I'm trying to get back to that sort of that lovely spot of um the phone being, you know, there for all the good things but not necessarily fill my life with all of the you know uh, I am.
Speaker 1:I'm praying for a cultural revolution around technology For sure, that's what that's what you're talking about and I'm praying that my kids start to recognize you know, there's a lot of data out right now yeah, I got three teenagers right, three high schoolers that this is not good for me. Yeah, not good for my mental health. Moms and dads, could you start to model that Deep work, because you're in the midst of a deep work season right now. It does not happen when we're letting ourself get pinged bam, bam, bam bam all the time. Our brains don't work like that. We need focused deep work time. So shout out to Fuller let's burn.
Speaker 2:Let's get the burner phone going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's been, it's been refreshing, and he wants to be just sort of more in the moments that he's in, and it was nice to hear someone younger than me remind me that that's the way it had always been up until a certain point.
Speaker 1:So Well, and so, to round it back to the film industry and the theater experience, maybe some of some of these younger people and if you're 60, 70, listen to this. The invitation's there for you to set it aside and then maybe go and experience some deep work like really really solid cinematography, really solid storytelling that comes in a theater experience.
Speaker 2:I'm down for that man Absolutely, because I mean, ultimately, that's what you know any great movie or great filmmaker doesn't want someone to watch their movie on their phone, their phone, no matter what the movie is, they're making it for that sort of place in which that's what you're doing, and there aren't many experiences like that anymore. And actually one of the other experiences that are like that, or should be even more like that, is church. So in a lot of ways it's got those sort of similarities of like let's. You know, let's bring the volume down of everything that's going on in my life and point our eyes towards something singular. And, you know, in church obviously it's the gospel and all of the amazing things that Jesus has done for us, but in the movies it's sort of just like okay, these people are sharing a singular experience that they want your full attention for. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I love that Church. The best parts of our Lutheran liturgy is it's telling the divine love story, god's love for us in Christ, and capturing our attention into that grand narrative, that meta narrative that is above us or you could say even below, grounding us to what is true, and then we get to see the world through a story lens. There's so much research right now in sociology, psychology, around the need for the meta-narrative. So, with that in mind, talk about the Wretch Like Me kind of plot, because it kind of is the hero's journey in a non-heroic way, in a very raw and real way. We're writing a script and you can get into the details.
Speaker 1:That is probably not the Angel studio, I mean. Angel kind of presses some boundaries in terms of Christian content, to be sure, but whatever christian genre you you're used to seeing, this movie is not going to be, not going to be that, it is going to be raw. It's gen, genuine, it's authentic, it's pointing you to jesus, but in a in a super, super tangible, gritty, gritty way. Um so, and a spiritual the, the heart of it, which I love, is recognizing that we're in a spiritual battle, that there is an enemy, satan, and there's a demonic realm. There's a dark realm of which we're all in and the light pierces that darkness. So go into a little bit more of the story plot and the process of writing and now moving toward production of Wretch Like Me of wretch like me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think I think early on, in the early days, it was the idea that, um, I've been in the darkness. You know, I've seen things, I've been a part of things. I haven't always acted in a christian-like way in my past, made mistakes, all of the all of the great, you know all the stuff that we humans do, um, but so I was trying to figure out, you know, you put yourself in a mental place of being in the darkness the idea that a movie could sort of take you into that darkness and kind of you hold their hand and say you know it's going to be okay, we're going to go into this darkness and we're going to explore what's going on in here in a very real sense, in a very poignant sense, in a way that you know Christians and non-Christians alike can identify with, I believe, wholeheartedly. They may not like to remember those moments in which they were in the dark, but they've happened, I can guarantee it, because that's again who we are. But the idea that I wanted to figure out how I could explain how bright the light of Jesus is in that and I don't feel like I can do it unless it's in the darkness, because sometimes these Christian films, I'd say 90% of the time they're shot in a sunny atmosphere and then they turn on the light and you're like, well, I guess it's a little bit different. You know what I mean. Like, oh, I guess it's kind of cool or you know whatever. But the idea of genuinely telling a story from my perspective a little bit about again.
Speaker 2:My dad was a Baptist minister and the strangest Baptist minister on earth. He would show us these movies. He was an avid movie fan, 16 millimeter prints. He would reel them up and right before he'd show them he'd tell us sort of the stories and struggles of what they went through to get it made. So you understood that it's like, oh well, this isn't real, so I can look at it sort of subjectively, but he always went through all this. So you know, I literally watched Night of the Living Dead when I was six years old.
Speaker 1:Six.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, okay, I was six years old on 16 millimeter film and he told us the story about how, you know, production was stalled and how he got the money to get the film developed, just the whole thing. So you're just sitting there going like, oh my gosh, what they went through to do this kind of thing. And then we'd go to bed and the next morning my mom would be sort of licking her hand and pasting my hair over and we'd get in the car and we'd go to church and since then my dad had always been sort of searching for the Christian movie that he was like oh, todd, this is, you know, they figured it out and I mean to this day the only one I can. Even. I know it's the strangest thing, but the only movie I've ever seen that does both is the Passion of the Christ. It doesn't pull one punch and it is a sincere telling of that event and what was sacrificed and what it meant to be a man, having all sin essentially upon him. So the idea that we could maybe try and do that, but maybe not with the story of the greatest story ever told it, has always been fascinating to me. So as I went into starting this process, I wanted to make sure that I could not only make the movie that was scary and fun and also had this sort of dark element and tell it sincerely, and I think that that's key, because a lot of this has to do with me really speaking artistically through my perspective, and that's my perspective is sort of these you know dark moments, involved with the next morning the sun comes up and Jesus is there and all of that good stuff.
Speaker 2:So you know, in that journey I wrote and wrote and wrote, and then there were you know breaks, with you know filming other things and classes and content. But then there was a moment that my dad became more sort of sick I don't even know if that's the right word. He was just his health was failing, his kidneys were starting to sort of tank and all of that stuff. So I kind of pushed pause, you know, a little bit before Christmas. And then in January is when we went and visited and he passed so and then there was like even a month after that where I just kind of was like I'm not even going to read any of it because the whole movie is, um, sort of the idea.
Speaker 2:You know, the every movie sort of has asked sort of this dramatic question that by the end, you want to answer, and and the dramatic question is can a parent save their child from evil or from sin or any of those things? And we can't, as much as we want to and as much as we sort of give advice to help, guide and lead, ultimately there's only one that can save. Yeah, um, and that's sort of what this, this story and this, uh, this movie is all about. Ultimately it's it's a story about what you pass from generation to generation and how that new generation either either learns from or takes on and inhabits this exact same role that those parents you know, same mistakes that those parents had done. So, but we're doing it sort of through this lens of, you know, a horror movie.
Speaker 2:So basically, that element is the idea of a physical manifestation of sin. You know, sin is a monster. Sin makes you sick, you know, sort of internally, and the more sick you become, the more sin overtakes. You know the darkness, you know Satan, oh man, of sin and what we pass on to our kids. And is what we're passing on good or is it not good?
Speaker 1:That's so good. I don't think in what direction Let me go into. The people may hear you're producing a horror movie. What is this? Well, let me just counter that thought.
Speaker 1:Sin is horrible, the wages of sin leads to death and no one gets through life alive apart from the life giver and his name is Jesus, apart from the life giver and his name is Jesus. And do we actually preach and teach and live as if there is a dark realm that leads us to and there's going to be a whole bunch of themes in the addiction that leads us to self-destruction, that leads us to mental illness, that leads us to sexual immorality, that leads the passions to become out of control? And if you're living in 2024 and beyond and you don't see that, I don't know what world you're living in. Because sin is on overdrive today, hedonism on overdrive, and then the other extreme from from, if you don't have Christ, it's nihilism, it's just like.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry to be crass, but screw it, man, I don't really have any hope. I'm just going to eat, drink, be merry. Tomorrow I die and I may even. You know. This is why mental health and loneliness and depression, suicide, all of those things are on overdrive right now, because we're not bringing the darkness into the light of Christ. This is just the journey of confession and absolution. I've said this many times, todd, but all of life is confession and absolution. To recognize, dude, I'm a wretch, or, as Luther says on his deathbed, we're all beggars. To be sure, we got no hope on our own.
Speaker 1:And the more the church I think lives with that recognizes the monster which is sin, the better it's going to be. We're not playing nice with sin. We fight with the word of God and the victory has been won through the work of Christ. So I want to get your response to that, but before we're right in production pre-production time and talk about the budget and if anybody is listening and wants to like, hey, I'd love to become one of your early investors talk about how they could do that, todd.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think the best way to go about it would be just to contact us. We have a pretty extensive pitch deck that sort of showcases everything from a little bit. You know, it goes deeper into sort of the behind the scenes of where the story came from from, but then also some more imagery, and then it's got a two minute sort of proof of concept trailer that showcases sort of some of the themes and characters and some of the things that we're going for. It's also just kind of show what it you know what'll feel and maybe look like.
Speaker 2:But you know, ultimately my goal with this one is, you know, you can always look at a movie and you can go like, oh, okay, well, what we'll do is we'll budget this at this level and then when maybe people read it, they go like, oh well, maybe it's, uh, twice that amount of money, maybe it's $2 million or something like that, or maybe it's $3 million or maybe it's $4 million, and then we maybe get this actor, this actor, this actor I kind of look at.
Speaker 2:Especially what we're doing at Red Braille even though I've made movies before is this is sort of a proof of concept for something that could become, something that becomes much, much more more movies, bigger budgets. But I feel like we're wanting to keep that budget as low as possible to just prove the idea of sort of merging these two ideas and shining the light directly into the darkness and sort of how effective that could be. So I would say, just contact us. You can go to the website redrailcom or find us on social media and get a hold of us and we'll point you in that direction.
Speaker 2:And so the budget is roughly what Todd Roughly what Todd Well, essentially without sort of some of the overhead costs, because we'll I mean, obviously within Red Braille, we'll be working on this sort of intermittently, but without that aspect of it the budget's around $300,000.
Speaker 1:Great, great so redbraillecom. Is that what our website is? I should know that that is it Redbraille, great so redbrailcom. Is that what our website is? I should know that.
Speaker 2:That is it, or on Facebook, instagram, or you can also email me at tfreeman at redbrailcom.
Speaker 1:So tell us the vision of Red Braille while we're on it. What are we looking to do? What are our lanes that we're working in right now, if people want to partner with us?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, um, we've been lucky enough to to do some work for some other. Some other churches. We've done some content uh in-house, helping them produce new content for uh last I believe it was christmas um, sometimes, uh, churches need something that's a little bit higher produced or, you know, has the right amount of space to get uh what they want shot done. So that that's one lane that we've been doing, but we've been a lot of our work's been working uh with not only luther house but christ greenfield on sort of well as, as well as the ulc, um teaching content that can be sort of this evergreen content that we can share with again, hopefully at some point, other churches so that these sort of things, these resources, are available to others. But those are two aspects. But then obviously, week to week we also serve, you know, christ Greenfield with videos for in-service, and then the school with promotional materials and commercials and all of that stuff. So it keeps us extremely busy.
Speaker 1:It's a full service studio right now. Green screen. It is, it's a full service studio right now green screen. So if you're in the Valley or some of our partners fly in for different productions, just reach out to us again, redbraillecom, if we could help you in any of your production to creatively tell people about the gospel. Talk about our. We've gotten into a deeper relationship with Chris and Sarah over at Luther House of Study. Talk about some of the creative content we've produced with them in our collaboration.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've. So they've. They kind of came to us and they were looking to update a lot of their online teaching classes because what they had was sort of just they would read these, these scripts of their teaching, and do them, you know, on Zoom and then just kind of share also those Zooms for teaching purposes. So they were looking to sort of up the production level but also maybe do it in a new way, maybe do it in a new way. So they had me sort of take a stab at going through one of their scripts and going like how could we maybe do this from a different angle to make people more engaged? And the first class we did it was American Reformation, it was their Reformation class. Yeah, they sort of said, okay, here's kind of what we want to do.
Speaker 2:And then I kind of came back to them and I said, well, what I'm thinking is sort of this Monty Python meets the Muppet show kind of thing. Yeah, so funny, irreverent, so you kind of don't know it plays with the characters and who they are as teachers and how they interact. But then we, you know, luther comes and chimes in and he's sort of this little tiny version of Luther and he, you know, reads Luther's words and their relationship with that and it being, you know it working sometimes and not others. So just working in ways to make people go like, oh well, that was fun, but I also learned everything that they wanted to teach. So basically I've done that with two other classes and my big thing is always they just give me the content and I don't change any of the content. I just sort of wrap it in this wrapper. That's a way to get people excited to watch the next class and to sort of drive people's imaginations as they connect to something.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's what good preaching is. Absolutely yeah, it's. The preacher is really there.
Speaker 2:He's a real human Yep.
Speaker 1:And so I always tell like a lot of our communicators todd, like they gotta like you before they listen to you are you for sure?
Speaker 2:are you a?
Speaker 1:likable character do you present as happy, like happy to be there, excited about life and excited about your content and is are. Have you experienced the content in a real, tangible way again? Story is our story, is our friend here, and then we enter into God's story, whether it's the gospels, old Testament, new Testament, pistol, whatever. How do we communicate the narrative of scripture in a in a winsome way? I love Luther too, because he invites.
Speaker 1:He was very strange some 500 years ago, um, in inviting people to use their imagination to place themselves actually in the biblical text. That was very, very strange in that day and age, especially in the Roman Catholic tradition where the people are far from the holy people, the priests, like the leader. So we kind of lower ourselves, we lower people into the narrative of scripture, or you could say, the narrative of scripture descends upon us and then we say, huh, how does this fit in my life? How is this story transforming my small story? How is the grand narrative transforming my small? That's what all good storytelling does. It takes us on that kind of arc from the, from the gut punch of the law, to the resolution. Hopefully it's not, and this is why I love the conversation. Hopefully that juxtaposition is as diverse as light to dark and life to death.
Speaker 2:That it's not just a small.
Speaker 1:It's not a small tilt, it's. I was dead, I've been crushed and now I've been made alive by the gospel of Jesus Christ to invite others to enter into that story. I love the approach that we're taking right now Because it's real and people need. I'd love to get your take on this. People need to practice the struggle of being crushed by sin, death, the devil, the reason, horror I've been wanting to say this the whole time the reason people go to horror movies or darker movies is our brains actually need to, in a moderately safe environment, practice what it's like when the horror, the reality of the diagnosis, sin, suffering and death enters into our reality.
Speaker 1:How will we function? Will we be crippled, or will there be a place in our brain where we're like? You know, I've been here not exactly here before, but I've been in moments like this, so I can function at least well. And I'd love to get your take on walking through your grief journey too. With your dad, you've practiced the grief journey so that you don't run away from it. You enter into it, you honestly assess how awful it is and then you honestly bring the light of Christ into that struggle in a real and genuine, authentic way. Any take, though, on what movies do in terms of helping us practice staying emotionally calm in the midst of horrific things.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. Well, I mean, I feel like the reason horror movies always do really well and there are a lot of people who maybe wouldn't even admit that they like going to see a horror movie and those kind of things, but ultimately it's you know a lot of it's what you said, but also you know just the idea of practicing, um, putting yourself in other shoes, somebody else's shoes, and then having them be afraid and you being afraid for them. There's so many things about the experience that really engage in sort of what the core of it is to be human. You know you're you're empathizing. You know sometimes you'll yell at the screen and be like, oh my gosh, don't go down there.
Speaker 2:You know all of those things because we know that you know the filmmakers telling us the other parts of the story that you know like, oh no, somebody else is down there, or whatever, um, so so, yeah, I, I think that there's always a a fascination with with that aspect of things. But also, you know, as there are a lot of great statistics and, again, if you know, if anybody's wanting to potentially invest in the movie, they can check out the, the, the pitch deck and all of that. But there's some, there's some really great studies, um, that have been done on, uh, you know, as sort of church, people going to church has gone slightly down. People's, the numbers of people that believe in hell has gone up. So it's one of those things where you go like, well, you know, if you believe in hell, I've got a heaven to tell you about.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:You know, it's one of those things where it's like, oh, okay, well, yeah, okay, so you believe in, you know, maybe evil, evil spirits, you know those kind of things. Okay, well, then we'll frame it within that world and then we'll sort of take you by the hand and lead you into the darkness, just like Jesus has done for me and every Christian on the planet. So you're sort of just leading people into this story, having just go like, you know, you just got to trust me that by the end you're going to see something and experience something that maybe you haven't before, just because we walked through the darkness to get there.
Speaker 1:That's right. Well, you go ahead and finish your thought.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, no, no, and you know on, you know, sort of the last idea, you know thought about Wretch Like Me, and a lot of it is, you know, it's got baked into it a Lutheran pastor.
Speaker 2:So that's sort of my favorite thing about all of it is not only as ultimately not only a horror, scary movie, but it's also a Christian film.
Speaker 2:But even more if you get it more macro about it, it is very Lutheran and that's the one thing that I'm the most excited about, because Lutherans will get a lot of the things, a lot of the theology and the things that are going on. There's a lot going on. There's more scripture in this movie than I've ever had in any movie and for the first time there's liturgy literally in the movie and there's confession, absolution in the movie, but it's all wrapped in things that are scary and go bump in the night. So there will be no denying it from someone who loves horror movies. They're going to get to the end of the movie and they're going to go. That was a great horror movie and they also got the other side of things. But there will be no denying on the other side that it is 1000 percent a christian film and even more sort of veh Love it, the rise of paganism, witchcraft, dark arts.
Speaker 1:I'm not telling anybody that they should YouTube or search it out. You don't have to search very hard, though, to see all sorts of pagan practices, not not in third world countries, Africa et cetera, like here in the United States of America today.
Speaker 2:People have a spirit it's growing.
Speaker 1:Have you seen that, Todd?
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure, yeah, and a lot of it is. You know, in this past year, just kind of going through this process, I've looked into all of those things and kind of you know what had gone on in sort of you know the backwoods in Mexico, you know where they were, sort of St Beth, there's all of this. You know there's a new saint and it's death and you pray to this sort of this skeleton type woman, you know, and there's all these things, but they still consider themselves Catholic. Wow so, but they've just incorporated these new sort of saints and uh, yeah, a lot of that uh is starting to sort of bleed in the united states and even, uh, yeah, yeah, witchcraft and and and burning effigies and I mean just you know all of that stuff is on the rise. So it's not that people aren't looking, it's just that maybe we need to counteract with a compelling argument that we know is the truth.
Speaker 1:This is so so good. Last question Ah, this is so so good. Uh, last question how has Jesus cared for you, comforted you?
Speaker 2:been kind to you through your grief journey losing your dad. Uh well, during these times it's hard to sort of joke about something, but my wife and I joke sometimes. You know if, if you put you know and this doesn't say anything you know negatively about anybody in our lives or anything. But if you were to sort of take out a guy, the last guy you'd ever want to take out is my dad, because he passed on pretty much kind of all that my family kind of is. You know my son, both of my kids lived, my parents lived with us on and off during their, you know, their years, going into retirement, all of those things. So they were very, very instrumental in how amazing my kids have have turned out. So you you kind of joke about it and you go like, whoa, all right, wow, yeah, you took a, you took a rough, rough one out of the, out of the scenario. But Jesus allowed us something that was the counteracting agent to how hard that was all together, as my dad got worse over the you know a few days and then passed away early one morning and my son and I and this is morbid and there might be too much information, but I'm also, that's just kind of who I am, so I'm just going to say it. But I'm also. That's just kind of who I am, so I'm just going to say it. But my dad had passed away overnight and my sister said that she'd give me a call. You know, if you want to come over before hospice kind of comes and takes him away, you know if you'd like that. And I said I would, and my son would have said yes, I would like to as well. He's like I don't want to, but I feel like that's an experience that will help me and help shape me and all of those things.
Speaker 2:So, um, so we went and it was still dark out, um, and we were in the room with my dad, who had deceased, and my sister took off and it was just Fuller and I and we were in the room with my dad and we were talking to each other and we just had these moments of conversations about life and death and where we were in our lives. So it was like the most pure parenting moment that I've ever had as well, because we were also doing it in the midst of my dad who had passed, as someone else kind of came to sort of take over. My niece came over and we were going to just go grab a bite to eat and just kind of decompress a little bit. And as we came out we had gone in in the dark and the sun was rising as we walked out and there was something very, very special about that moment of realization and how God gave us that exact moment, the exact way that it needed to be, and if it had gone any other way I wouldn't be able to speak right now. You know, it's one of those things where I probably couldn't even get words out. It's still very, very, very sad and it's still and I miss him and I watch TV shows that it's the new season.
Speaker 2:You know, a new season started to something that was the last thing that I talked to him about, and I watch a new episode and the episode has nothing to do with my dad. But it has everything to do with my dad because I can't get ahold of him and talk to him about those things. But in that moment that God gave us, I've realized that I'm able to now sort of have the new experience of being that even more so for my wife and my children and everyone around me, because ultimately my dad kind of built me. He built me based on Jesus, but it was all very, very meticulous and so I feel a great um honor that I get to sort of continue in those footsteps, so yeah, Wow, the light shines brightest in the dark.
Speaker 1:That's a line in our wretch like me film and that, that picture of coming in the dark coming out in the light, that is the journey of Jesus from Good Friday, the darkness of death to the light of the resurrection and the hope that you have that you'll see your dad again with Jesus on the day that he returns. So apart from that, I don't know how we really make it through life the hope in the midst of the suffering carrying us through the suffering and the grief.
Speaker 2:And that's ultimately what I want to share through movies is I don't I don't want to force anyone to think anything that they don't want to think, and I can't change anyone's mind, but I can present the gospel in a new way and that's what I hope to do and hope to just sort of share what Jesus means to me in an authentic way.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a great place to end the conversation today, Todd. Your blessing to me and to the body of Christ, both at Christ Greenfield, ULC, Luther House and beyond other congregations. If you would like to hear more about what Red Braille is doing redbraillecom, If you'd like to be an investor for our first full-length feature film, you can hit us up there as well. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day, Todd. Grateful for you, and this time the time just flew, man. This was a fun, fun conversation. So, Jesus, Jesus loves you, shines through you and, listener, I pray, you know the joy of Jesus today. He is carrying you through the darkness. He is the light of the world. This is the American Reformation podcast. We'll be back next week. Peace, Thanks, Todd.