.jpg)
American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Cross-Cultural Ministry and Adaptive Leadership with Walker Nery: Embracing Diversity and Overcoming Adversity
What happens when you blend adaptive leadership with intercultural ministry? In our latest episode, we sit down with Vicar Nery to uncover the secrets to thriving in diverse cultural landscapes without losing theological integrity. Drawing from the wisdom of the Apostle Paul and Walker’s rich experiences in Brazil, we explore humility, the value of listening, and the relational approach needed to bridge cultural divides. Walker's stories will inspire you to appreciate the beauty and challenges of cross-cultural engagements.
Ever considered how adversity can shape your faith journey? Our discussion takes an emotional turn as we delve into personal stories that have defined our ministry, including the profound impact of Vicar Nery’s nonverbal, autistic son, Samuel. We explore how suffering and dependency on Christ can lead to growth, and the necessity of evolving church practices to meet the needs of all congregants. This heartfelt conversation emphasizes the transformative power of grace and the need for a church that is safe and inclusive for everyone.
As churches face declining attendance, how can they remain relevant in diverse communities? We tackle this pressing issue head-on by discussing the importance of multiculturalism in modern Christianity. Learn how Bethel's inclusive leadership model involves community representatives to serve diverse populations effectively. We also highlight innovative ways to empower all members of the church, breaking down traditional hierarchies and fostering an inclusive environment. By the end of this episode, you'll be inspired to embrace a hopeful, expansive vision for spreading the gospel and celebrating our collective mission.
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman here. I pray the joy of Jesus is your strength. I pray you got your movement on whenever you're taking this in. I pray you got your water. I pray you're leaning in today, heart, body, mind and spirit, to a conversation with Vicar Walker. Neri and I met Walker at the Best Practices Conference this past February and he and Chris Holder had a wonderful presentation on intercultural ministry and collaboration and, man, you had me at kind of intercultural and collaboration pastors, vicars, working together. It was such a fantastic conversation. Let me tell you a little bit about him. He is married to his. When they were 13 years old. Your wife's name, walker remind me Maria Yolanda.
Speaker 1:Maria Yolanda, and they have three precious kids, so they weren't married at 13. I don't think was where you when you got married, bro, 20 some yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, were you in your twenties. Yeah, twenties.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And they have three kids 16, nine and five, and I'm going to I'm still working on my Spanish here, Walker. So Communica de Cristiana Bethel.
Speaker 2:I totally, the first word, I totally messed up, but it's okay, you got it. Comunidad Cristiana Bethel. Yeah, you're good there, it is.
Speaker 1:And he's in the final year of his program in the Center for Hispanic Studies out of Concordia Seminary in St Louis, so so grateful to be on with you. He's going to be ordained then in about a year as a general pastor in the Lutheran Church Missouri, Dane, then in about a year as a general pastor in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod Praise be to God.
Speaker 2:So how are you doing today, walker? Thanks for chilling with me. Doing very good, doing very good. I'm honored to be here. We had such a good best practices, workshops and everything that we learned down there, and just a privilege to walk in with tribe people in ministry and even as a v. I've been able to learn so much and being around everybody in best practices, including your session, and I'm doing great.
Speaker 1:I'm doing great Good. Well, this is going to be fun. So opening standard question there. Walker, how are you praying for reformation? You obviously came from Brazil, so when I say the American, I mean the United States of America Christian church. How are you praying for reformation?
Speaker 2:My prayer for the reformation in the American church I always base on the words of Paul, 1 Corinthians, that says to the Jews I became like a Jew to win the Jews. And he goes on and on to those under the law and to those without no law and to those that are weak I became weak. I pray that we can adapt to people's lives so we can touch their hearts and minds and reform really the way that we reach people minds and we form really the way that we reach people, the way that we become like them so that they can come and experience the sound and the good doctrine that we have as Lutherans, so that they may experience everything that we have experienced.
Speaker 1:Amen. You use a word I've been wrestling with a lot here is adaptability, adaptive leadership through, you could say, the uncharted waters, uncharted territory which is the United States of American Church. Today we're very different than we were, say, the founding of the United States, and obviously 250-some years ago, and very different than we even were, say, a generation ago, as secularism has kind of taken root, especially in our younger generations. So what would you say to someone who says adaptability means compromising theology? We're really, really worried about the slippery slope of compromising good doctrine as we adapt to reach the Jew and the Gentile, those under the law or those without the law, as the Apostle Paul says. What would you say to that person?
Speaker 2:We often think of adapting as allowing things that cannot be compromised, like the gospel, the words of Jesus, and so we try to defend the gospel. But in reality is the gospel that defends us, and so we think we're compromising the words of Jesus or the works of Jesus, salvation, or even the things that compromise his message. But when I say adapt, it's more like a missionary or a missiologist that understands that you can dress like a Japanese you'll never become a Japanese but you eat like one, so you can actually be a family and be able to impact their lives and be relevant. And so adapting to lifestyles, cultural music in a way, is just so that you can have the ears and preach the gospel to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good, maintaining the posture of a learner, right, the humility of a learner. There's always more and culture is so rich and I come with my perspective, my personality, my behavioral traits. But then it's messy, right, when, like my kind of Western Anglo, like when that gets merged and very for me, like very driven, very task oriented, and maybe you move away, you move into cultures that it's more, it's slower, it's more relational, it takes time to develop those that trust, etc. Like it is a clash and hopefully a convergence a beautiful Jesus, convergence of cultures.
Speaker 1:But a lot of times we don't even cross, right, we don't even enter into the conversation with a brother or sister who comes from another culture because we think it's going to be too messy. What words of wisdom would you say to someone who's like, wow, I don't know, like they've hardly ever gone on a mission trip, say to Mexico or somewhere like that, to just learn, not to come in to do, but to come in just to learn. I think everybody ought to take short term or maybe longer term trips into and you don't have to maybe cross the border in the United States of America to place yourself, cross culturally. What would you say to that person who is hesitant to do cross and intercultural ministry Walker.
Speaker 2:I would say the gifts of listening is one of the things that you learn the most is one of the things that you learn the most. I think by listening you can understand more about different cultures and who people are, and even today, as we have seen with the Internet, with TVs, many things that people will find wrong about churches and different theologies, behaviors of ministries, pastors or Christians in general. We have a really tough task to touch people's lives, and people really want you to be real and not an organization, but they want you to be real, to be a person, and that's the chance that we have to take the incarnated Jesus, through his words and his message, and bring you right at the footsteps of people, just being somebody, just being a flashing bone. And so I would say, just be as real as you can be and just listen. Everybody will have a struggle, everybody have a story, and if we just take the time to understand about others, we'll be a little less resident in walking to different territories.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. So what's the best thing, top two or three best things you've learned at the Center for Hispanic Studies? Leo Sanchez, I know you've probably learned with him some, but yeah, tell us about the journey through the Center for Hispanic Studies good for me.
Speaker 2:I'll be honest that I didn't know about the church, the Lutheran church, all my life and the doctrine, and at first you think it's just another Catholic church and then when you enter into the theology, you see that something so, so solid and so trustworthy, so rich.
Speaker 2:So the Center for Hispanic Studies has been very good for me in my formation as a pastor. I want to understand the balance of law and gospel, understanding how to filter the word of God and also how to apply in ministry so that others can be touched by it. So I think this gave me a good balance, gave me tools that we often don't think about. For instance, understanding where people come from, from different denominations, from different beliefs, from different hurts and pain, pastoral care, just understanding how people feel to pain, how they reject the message because of hurt inside, even the church, you know. And so that gave me a good balance to work and let the Holy Spirit do its own job and stay away from it, but participate in it. That gave me a good balance to serve others as I would like to be served myself. So that's one of the tools that we got from Center for Hispanic Studies.
Speaker 1:I love it. What denomination background were you prior to exploring Lutheranism?
Speaker 2:I grew up in Brazil with no denomination at all. My family didn't share the gospel. All I heard was that a God existed. Most of the community at that time would be Catholic, and when I came to the US that's when I was born again I went to a Bible study church and then later, when I moved, I went to a Brazilian church that supposedly was non denomination, but it had traces of something. We all know that we can never be neutral.
Speaker 2:And so it was at that time that I started hearing things that didn't really fit with the word and I started looking for a good place for me and my family and I found this Hispanic Lutheran church, a new planted church in Rockwell, texas, called Expansion, and that's where I went and served and took my seminary classes, and that's what I was looking for that balanced theology.
Speaker 1:And that was an LCMS church plant.
Speaker 2:is that true LCMS? And?
Speaker 1:who were some of those leaders that kind of most profoundly shaped you, mentored you as you grew kind of your Lutheran mind.
Speaker 2:So when I came to expansion Comunidad Cristiana, expansion the pastor there which he was still a vicar Jaime Gonzalez, originally from Mexico, married to a Brazilian. His wife is from Brazil and since day one I met him on Saturday. On Monday I was doing pre-seminary classes and he pushed me forward. He always gave me all the resources. He still does. He still helps me. I'm in my own church planting now as a vicar, but we still work together. We're still part of the same church planting network, expansion network, and he has been such a great tool to push me, reverend Johannes, dr Johannes, facilitator here at Area B in Dallas, texas. He retired but he has been such a support, pushing me all the way.
Speaker 2:My wife, my wife has shaped me in everything through ministry and telling me you should be more like this, you should try this, you should try that. You know it's not a mistake that scripture says it's not good for me to be alone. We need that one person that cares so deeply but also wants us to do better. But I want to say that my son has been one of the best, the best person that shaped me into ministry. He's on the autism spectrum. He is nonverbal. When we lock eyes it's so deep and the time is so short. So you have to take advantage.
Speaker 2:And for a very long time I wrestled with understanding infant baptism. And that's when I came to look at my son and question myself is God limited to working in his life? Because he can't speak or maybe can't understand? And he was the one that pushed me to say you know, god's not limited, he's all powerful, all knowing. He created us and he can do anything by his grace and his mercy and um. And so those people are the greatest people that shaped me to be a better servant, to be a better uh, vicar, future pastor and uh you know, follower of Christ.
Speaker 1:You know the joy of Jesus is all over your life. That's why I was really impressed and excited to get to hang out with you. I don't think you told me about your son, so which one is he? 16, 9, 5?
Speaker 2:He's five-year-old Samuel Okay.
Speaker 1:Samuel, yeah, and isn't it sweet how Jesus uses the hard things. It's not easy because I've got I've got firsthand, secondhand, you know, wounds. That's what happens just as a human, but specifically in ministry, to be sure. And uh, the Lord teaches us so much through the struggle, through suffering and trial, and he shows us it's the way of the of the cross. Anything more to say about how Jesus works in your life through suffering and loss, grief even, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:And it's quite a journey. I think, when you come to the place of being dependent in Christ and not being able to do anything and rely on him, I think that's when we grow the most. You know, and that has been our dependability on Christ in personal struggles, and the roads are tough, you know. By God's grace he has gotten a lot better with his spectrum. He's communicating more. Now we have eye contact.
Speaker 1:Eye contact yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, but at first it was really hard to know that maybe he didn't even understand I was his father. He didn't even understand I was his father, or uh, mom a lot of times just thought she was uh, uh, just food source, you know, and and you you come to think, you know, is it always going to be like that? Is it going to be able to live um by um, provide for himself or have a good life? And you know it's tough.
Speaker 2:But that brings me to why we have to be so focused on adapting, because there are many families like that now on the spectrum and he goes to a special education, and there are many families who are going through the same thing, and even single moms going through that alone. And you know, how can we provide a safe space for them to worship and to hear the words and have the words being preached over those children, when God is not limited to blessing them, to saving them or to doing anything for them in their lives, you know, and so we have to always continuously thinking about how are we adapting as a church? Because life is changing, diagnoses are changing, people are getting sick or being affected by different uh things in their lives, but the church, uh, is trying to do the same and remain the same. Uh, how, how can we provide scripture and the sacraments, um, for them as well?
Speaker 1:you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:I love that heart, you know, in the midst of. I love talking adaptive change, personal we're kind of in that space right now but then corporate as well, and it always has three different dimensions. So it's identification of the struggle and hopefully there's an appropriate identification of the of the struggle. The second movement is interpretation of the struggle Right. And is interpretation of the struggle right? And there's multiple, there may be multiple interpretations of of what is going on in your son's story and in any story of of loss. It's I've come to know this. I don't know the specific why. I do know the world is broken and I do know a God who loves and enters into broken stories and he has a plan and a purpose for your life and his ultimate plan and purpose is the forgiveness of sins, life and salvation that will come on the last day. So this movement toward a posture of hope and then the brain activity of hope connected to joy, then gives us the appropriate interpretation and then the appropriate response. So we have an interpretation. And then how are we going to act? And you can apply that to the church, to a synod, but you've got to start out with an appropriate identification, a true, accurate identification of what is going on, good, bad, ugly, et cetera.
Speaker 1:And from time to time, people you know individuals don't like to deal with tough stuff do we Walker? No, no, we want to move away, we want to hide from. We want to hide from, we want to mask, we want to medicate, we want to move as far away. And what that does, there's a part of our brain and our heart, and obviously the Holy Spirit lives in us, that says, oh, hold on, something's wrong. Do you want to identify what is true in this situation? And then Jesus, it appears to be the way of Jesus, right when he then enters into it.
Speaker 1:The Pharisees in particular, right, you look at, they don't want to identify what is true, that they're whitewashed tombs, inside filled with dead men's bones On the outside. Look good, you're hypocrites, you know we're ignorant. So identification, ultimately and I'll end with, I'll end with this is confessing oh my goodness, there's something wrong within me and around me. And oh, my goodness, the only interpretation that I can have of this struggle is is Jesus, enter in, jesus, speak, jesus, work, jesus, return, it's all, it's all about him. Anything more to add to that journey, from identification to interpretation, to then action. Walker on life's journey, both individually and as a leader in the church. Anything to say there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's in the midst of all the business that we have going on. You know it's hard to keep focused on those things. You know it's hard, but you're right. You know it's a broken place, you know, and we have to come to the same in a contricted heart, coming to that place where it is broken. But you know that there is hope, that there is a place to go.
Speaker 2:You know, and my deepest focus on our Hispanic group is that they find that place. Not that they come to church every Sunday, not that they fill every single gathering that we have, but are they being led through the law and gospel, through pointing at the wrong in us, the wrong in the world that points them to the gospel, because, at the end of the day, they deserve the chance to find that place, that place of a contrite heart and that brings us to repentance and and and and and, finding the hope and and the joy in the gospel that just let us endure everything that goes on in our lives. And, uh, it's not easy. Uh, we, we don't, we don't want to struggle, but you know, I was praying this week and I was remembering that the church thrives to persecution.
Speaker 2:And we don't ever pray God, bring a persecution so your people can actually get deep into the word and, you know, so that we can actually do what Paul did. You know go reach everyone, go plant, even if he hurts, you know, go until he hurts. You know, yeah, it's hard. We don't want to suffer and I usually say that even suffering is a missionary, you know. He leads us to a safe place, to a place that has calm waters and a shepherd that takes care of us. And so it's hard.
Speaker 2:I usually say that sometimes I got wholly sabotaged by God Because in the way I got into ministry I didn't plan it. In fact, I walked away many times when everything was offered pre-seminary classes and I finished for self-knowledge, self-gain, to grow, to use it at home, but not to serve others. Serve others. And I battled with God many times in continuing serving Him and His people and I had to wrestle with Him until there was no way I could walk out. And here I am today, you know, trying my best to do the best I can and stay away from the Holy Spirit doing his own job, you know.
Speaker 1:I love that God's sabotage or assault and that assault is very real. And what is the end goal? To put me and the flesh and Satan and his lies? Because he's got an assault, he's attacking us.
Speaker 1:If we're being persecuted today, I mean there's a spiritual battle taking place today, but I got to recognize who's in the throne and who's doing the ultimate assault of me, because I am the ultimate enemy. I'm the one. My mind, my desire to control, my desire to be the main guy or whatever it is I get in the way, or my desire to fix what only God can fix, now and into eternity. Right, I love just the posture of once I've been killed and raised up in Christ. It's all Him. If anything good takes place in me, it's Christ in me and therefore the life I live, I live in Him, not for me, but that's a daily, that's a daily repentance, a daily turning the daily, elevating your mind above, seated above where Christ is. That is the best way to live.
Speaker 1:And then, when the struggle comes, either internal, spiritual assault there's a lot of attack right now, I think, in the spiritual realm. And as Lutherans, as Lutheran Christians, we stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before, not just the Apostle Paul, but Luther, who recognizes the spiritual dimension big time, that we have an enemy. His name is Satan and he has been crushed through the cross in the empty tomb and we have to remind him his days are numbered. That is the primary assault today. I truly believe. But to do that requires us to be open first to God and then and then to one another, and I think that that pivots, that moves us nicely into the conversation around intercultural, cross-cultural, multicultural ministry in your presentation and the reason we've got to be open because we're going to learn, and I may say and not have it all figured out here. So I hope that's the posture you're entering into this conversation with listener. You prefer intercultural ministry to cross-cultural or multicultural. Why is that and what is the difference?
Speaker 2:Walker, okay, In the context where we serve right now, I like multicultural and the reason is it's reflecting the demographics in the neighborhood. Sure, there was a point in time that the US, like you said before, was a center of missionaries, and once before Europe was the same way, sending missionaries outside and coming back. But we come with the problem that not only the churches are dying out, more and more people are away from the faith, even if they call themselves Christians, but it could be just culturally, a Christian nation. It doesn't reflect the pews, the number in churches, and plus, we have a huge migration happening and we have different pockets. We have cities who have more Asians, more people from India, more Hispanic, and so in order for the church to survive today, in order to be relevant in the area that you live, you must serve as how your community looks like. That's one of the reasons why we are so multicultural where we serve at Bethel, because we have a lot of African communities.
Speaker 2:Uh, we have a large Hispanic community and um, and the Anglo church is actually um, dying out slowly, but it has been less and less, and most of the people who come come from a neighbor city and so it's not, they're coming from other cities and it's not quite reflecting, uh, the demographics and the reason, the highest reason is because these people are in their own backyards. If we want the city to be well, if we want to impact the community, impact our own lives, impact the neighborhood, we have to care for our own neighborhood. I remember the book of Daniel when God says if you want, pray for the city, pray for the people, get married, because if the city prosper, you also will prosper. You know, we're trying to not only serve the church, but we're trying to serve human beings as a whole, so that we can proclaim that there's a God who exists, and proclaiming him through words or actions or the way we respond to just life situations. So I think multicultural would be the response to what we have in the US right now.
Speaker 1:So what is the difference between multicultural and I think people can understand that cross-cultural and intercultural? Yeah intercultural.
Speaker 2:You tend to stay within the group that you identify with Language. You speak the preferences that you have Cross-cultural. You have to go somewhere to serve. You have to go to South America, you have to go to Africa. But what we're finding right now is that the mission field is right here, it's multicultural, it's in the US. You don't have to go outside to serve an African community anymore. You know the communities are right here and you know we have a great challenge, but we also have a great opportunity. A great challenge but we also have a great opportunity and sometimes we get what we pray for.
Speaker 2:We don't even remember. We send missionaries out, for instance, in Brazil, south Brazil, we have a lot of Lutherans and one day I was at Pastor Chris Holder's installation. I shared that I was from Brazil and there was a at Pastor Chris Holder's installation. I shared that I was from Brazil and there was a lady from a German family who was a missionary and she was born in Brazil. And so you see, we go and we preach and now we have all these people here and it's not an accident that we have those people in the doorsteps. Maybe it's the result of that. We have those people in the doorsteps. You know, maybe it's the result of our prayers and our service and the missionaries who went before us. And here we go. We got a great work to do.
Speaker 1:Yes, we do. A lot of people would look at the changing demographics and the racial disparity, growing immigration and many people, even the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod and I'm not talking borders, open borders, anything like that here, but just looking at what is. There are many urban areas with people from many different places across the world. How would you invite us to view that as an opportunity rather than a profound challenge, and how would you move us toward abundance, open leadership, development, identifying folks rather than protection?
Speaker 2:Walker, anything to say there yes, we have a deep problem in our humanity that we want to control. We want to be the protagonist of what's happening, or the mission of the church planting. And when we started this church planted battle Hispanic ministry, the first thing that I identified is I'm not Mexican, I'm not Colombian, I'm not Hispanic, I'm Latino, I'm from Brazil, but I'm not Hispanic. I speak Portuguese as my first language and so for me to be relevant and touch the Hispanic community, I had to have somebody right along with me who speaks Spanish, who is from Mexico, who can reach the families, who can answer questions to them that maybe I wouldn't have access. And it's really hard to allow somebody to lead right beside you because you want, you want in a good intention, you want to protect the gospel, you want to protect everything, because it's so holy right, and we end up getting into the mess that we're trying to do. The work that the Holy Spirit actually does, and by bringing someone along with you, equipping someone who can identify with the local community. Identify with the local community is the best thing that you can do to reach those folks who are not from your language and who can, you know, come to church, come to faith. It's a challenge, but at the end of the day it's God's work and you know, it's going to require trust, it's going to require faith, it's going to require that we are not the doers, we're just the co-workers with Christ, like Paul says. You know, and it's challenging, but it's also an act of um worship when you trust that God can use someone else, be a vicar or be a lay leader.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, not being an ordained pastor, you know how can you touch lives? You know, can God do it? And and the office of all believers tells us that we can. You know, I remember that one professor at the CHS told us you know, gregory Klotz, I think, he's in California and he was talking about the office of all believers and what if something happens? You know who's going to preach the gospel?
Speaker 2:Who's going to go on houses if all the church is closed down? Who's going to serve the sacraments and the bread and the wine? You know, and are we equipping the people to do that themselves as a believer, or are we making them dependent on the pastor? You know, we have to think about this. Are we making people depend on the physical building and the ordained pastor to come to Christ, you know, and it's a tough task and not everybody will be open. But with persecution that will happen really quick. The question is, are we willing to? You know, let God do his work and not so much put barriers and walls so that God can do his work.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you what, walker. There's so much there. Tell you what, walker, there's so much there. I'd like to go deeper into your partner. You said Hispanic and that church leader I guess I heard. I heard a I don't think it was a podcast, I think it was a book recently. But Caesar, you know Caesar, roman Empire, etc. Caesar always had someone at his right hand who was whisperinged in his ear. You're not a big deal, you have blind spots, you're just a man, you are mortal. Right, he had, he had someone who was there to lovingly challenge him.
Speaker 1:And unfortunately, when you get up into leadership positions, whether you're the ordained pastor or the president of institution or it's really, really easy to lose the role, I would say, of the wife in the home who is called to be a kind adversary, someone who sees all of you. And because they see all of you, there's profound trust and they can speak the harder, challenging words. And I think one of the dances right now we're doing in our church body, and probably many church bodies are doing it, is as the world has changed, as fewer people are entering into ministry, because it's hard, you know, the call into ministry is the call to die to self. There can be an over, I guess, emphasis on protecting those at the top, and in our case, I think, the pastor. But I think we're making the wrong move in that by protecting you're maybe discounting many other people who are the kind adversary the elder, the wife, whoever is in the world of the church, the culture of the church, who has a leadership voice in the church. Pastors need to lower themselves and invite more folks to say hey, there are things, there are gaps, there are things that I do not see.
Speaker 1:And obviously when you go multicultural, when you're going from Brazil to caring for those that come from Mexico, there's a wide gap there culturally. You speak three languages right, that's right. There's a wide gap there. Culturally, you speak three languages right, that's right. Like you're a very articulate, I can't even go trilingual man, that's next level. But you still have this and I think maybe because of that you've got this profound respect for not wanting to do something. You know that would hurt people, your Mexican brothers and sisters, and so you have someone there who's whispering in your ear, who's helping to translate, if you will, culturally, the gospel for your Mexican friends. So anything more to say to that kind of the need for a kind adversary in ministry Walker.
Speaker 2:Yes, I always tell our group, our congregation, that I want them to be well. I want them to be well in the word and scripture, in their faithful life, in their walk, and I always tell them because if one day I'm not well, I need you to pick me up. We tend to protect everything in a way that we can maneuver, control our preferences and you know, it's really hard to trust in ourselves because we have flaws and we deeply need people who walk with us to give us balance. Sometimes it could feel like a weakness, but actually that protects us from ourselves and from others Having people who lead with you, who will walk with you, who knows you deeply and, at times when you're in trouble, will defend you or will correct you.
Speaker 2:You know the prophet Nathan. You know he called the king, he called Saul and he called David. You know, and that's what we need. We need someone who will bring the mirror and say you know David, you know, do you know what this person did? And then hold them here and say you are that guy and being able to accept the correction, I think that's going to only make us better ministers and more faithful to do the calling that we have been called I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're part of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, mostly filled with people kind of look like, look like me, right? What three things or so do you think we have most to learn from what God is doing in other countries? Could be Brazil or other places you have knowledge, other countries where the gospel is rapidly multiplying Because that's what I want to see is the American Christian church. Lutheranism, orthodox, confessional Lutheranism in America have the multiplying effect Because our gospel, the doctrine of our church body, the Lutheran confessions, is so rich, but I don't know that we're releasing it as much as we will in the Lord's time. So anything that we can learn from what God is doing in other countries.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, as we know different ethnicities, you know they value something different than others. Some is relationship and the experience of being together, others is the commitment and the rules and the timing. And so I take that in our English services Everybody's on time and everybody does everything faithfully and they come, they have a schedule. And it was something funny that one of our Hispanic members share is that American people they plan even that they're going to cry. You know they will take a little piece of paper because they will cry in the service or or in the funeral. You know we don't plan that. We we plan to have human contact and in the relationship and it's not so important that we get late. The important is that we have a time together. Service may go longer than expected, but that's okay, and so understanding those kinds of things will help in a diverse culture that we have now today, in a diverse culture that we have now today.
Speaker 2:I think a few things that I wrote down here that we could learn is thinking of the works of Jesus. You know he healed people, he touched people. He, the incarnate son of God, walked as a human being, touching, teaching, speaking. You know, and that deep relationship we have been missing in the US, where we don't even know who our neighbors are, what struggles they have. I think we need to care and have a deep relationship, redefine what relationship really is. We have lost that Understand where people come from.
Speaker 2:Martin Luther didn't remove the prayers to Mary, not until later. You have to respect that. People come from all walks and all places and we can't just throw too much theology on them right at once because they might not know what you know, they might never been Lutheran in their lives, when somebody has been Lutheran for generations. And so just understanding where people come from and the last thing would be be relevant in people's lives you know, what do I have to give to that person? Uh, long-term, that will take them to ask you know, why do you care for me so much? Why do you love me? There's a book called love them. Until they ask you why. You know and I think that's that's really important that we love people so much that they ask why? What's different about you? You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's Jesus. Those are such good words. Those are such good words of wisdom. I would, as we're coming down the homestretch, I would miss the opportunity if I didn't mention your work with Pastor Chris Holder. What do you love about Pastor Chris? His work with the Unite Leadership Collective, of which I'm a part, his work with Luther House of Studies. What are your thoughts about what Pastor Chris is up to these days?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So Pastor Chris, I tell him all the time he looks like a crazy dude, right, not the norm in the church. And one thing that I really appreciate from Pastor Chris is that he listens to you even when you have criticism. You know when you have something to say. That I'm able to serve in the English congregation as a vicar and administrating the sacrament and everything and preaching as a vicar, and his style of leadership is that I am walking with him side by side.
Speaker 2:I think it takes away that boss-employee kind of relationship in a church environment and it takes people to see that you can work together Independently of what level you are. There is something better on the table, which is Jesus Christ. So I think this is one of the best things and regarding ULC and Luther House of Studies that he's doing right now, we have to always search for ways that we can empower the body of Christ. One example is a lot of the Hispanic community.
Speaker 2:People had to drop schools in their country and they don't have the academics to go to a seminary, but has the heart to serve. We have to create ways that we can equip them so that way they can serve the body of Christ independently of their academics, so that way they can serve the body of Christ independently of their academics. And I think we have to be innovating how we equip people, depending on what is the situation of the people that we are encountering right now. And so I think those are great things and that's biblical, you know, you go to the Old Testament, you see the Jews with the house of Hillel and the house of Shammai, you know, and one was more law and the other one was more gospel, more, you know, less restrict, more restrict, but still they were equipping the body, they were equipping the people, they were equipping the body, they were equipping the people so helpful.
Speaker 1:Thank you and shout out to Pastor Chris and all you're doing, bro, grateful for you. And you are a crazy looking dude, kind of bust, the mold of what a lot of people think a Lutheran pastor looks like to be sure.
Speaker 1:But, man, I love your crazy man and it's so good that you've come alongside Walker so well. Walker, you're a gift to the body of Christ. This has been so much fun. As you look at, let's cast vision for your life. As you look at 10, 20, 30 years down the road, what will sustain your joy in ministry and what do you hope people say after Walker is done with ministry? What do you hope they think about when they think about your ministry?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I hope that not to become lukewarm, you know, and always have that joy and that hope in Jesus and not let that grow cold. You know, not take the position that we have, which is holy, the pastoral position and respect as it is and it is. The other thing is, even though we go through struggles and times and busy times with studies and everything, go to the secret place. You know, we as Lutheran churches, we pray so much the Lord's Prayer, you know, and the teaching in Matthew 6 about the Lord's Prayer, you know, just the invitation to come in a secret place and close the door and the God who sees you in secret Coming before him so he can see you, so that we can have the encounter daily that Adam once had. Now we can have it through Jesus, just keeping the focus and burning in the secret, know, having the heart to do that.
Speaker 2:And my hope for the future when I finish my walk, is I came from a different context, one that wasn't with the gospel on the table, and you know we didn't. We didn't have that experience growing up and so my hope, when people look back and see what I have done with the help of God, is that all kinds of people had access to hear the gospel, independently where they came from, what walks of life, that they had an opportunity to hear and to give a response. I think that, as servants, a response. I think that, as servants, we are able to create the opportunity if we reach people with deep care and love and give them the opportunity to listen and to respond, because that's the two things that they will encounter. Jesus Christ, you know, and it's hearing and being able to respond, and and the rest of it is not up to us, but I want to be a person who will promote that kind of environment.
Speaker 1:Walker. I resonate with that vision, personally and collectively. I just heard a desire, and I'll put it in my, in my language, um, a desire for the spiritual habits, the disciplines of being in the word, listening to Jesus soaking up his word daily. It's for, it's for me. I can't give what I don't have, and Jesus wants to give me more and more of himself, more and more of his, of his word. And then, and then, second, it's bringing other people alongside, it's empowering other people, it's releasing other people. And then it's, third, just going on mission with them for the sake of more and more people hearing the gospel.
Speaker 1:This appears to be what the Apostle Paul, obviously, what Jesus did for the apostles, and then what the Apostle Paul did, whether it was Paul and Silas, paul and Barnabas, paul and Timothy, he had other men who were around him. There were women in the story too, to be sure, and they were being equipped, empowered, based on their respective gifts, and there was always this vision there's more people who need the gospel here in this community. We're going to plant churches in this community. I mean, I want to be a part of a movement that has that sort of an expansive mindset, a mindset filled with hope and wonder and joy at the grand adventure which is following Jesus, rather than the protective, fear-based, controlling posture. That's what I'm praying for in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, and praying for Christ, greenfield in particular, where I get to pastor, because Satan wants to create fear, he wants to create division, he wants to create a scarcity mindset. You can't, you won't, you will never. I mean, that's the posture of Satan, right, but the posture of Jesus is Jerusalem, js, samaria. He has this and greater things are you going to do? The comforter is going to come, the Holy Spirit's going to fill you and the gospel of Jesus is going to go forth. And don't worry about what you're going to say in moments of persecution. It's not going to be you speaking anyway. The Holy Spirit's going to be speaking through you. So it's complete liberation, it's complete freedom in following Jesus, which is the best, best thing ever.
Speaker 1:I am better, walker, because I got to hang out with you today. I know our listeners are the same. Thank you for being a part of our tribe. I'm praying for the end of your studies. Finish strong, brother, and then continue to have that heart of humility that brings other people from various backgrounds as we do multicultural work. We're going to have to do this in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod as we do multicultural work, maintaining the posture of humility and adventure and release and learning, listening, all of those things that are healthy, connected to the spirit of God, the spirit of the living God that lives in us. That's what I pray continues to fuel you, walker, for many, many years for fruitful ministry in Dallas and beyond. If people want to connect with you, walker, how can they do so?
Speaker 2:They can reach me on my email walkonaryathotmailcom. They can also email at HispanicMinistryatbetheldallasorg. And they can also reach me anytime on my cell phone, 972-704-6307.
Speaker 1:I love you're one of the a number of guests recently. They gave your cell phone. Let's go.
Speaker 1:It's all about relationship. We're not. I don't do this podcast because oh, got to build, no, no, no. I do the podcast because people need connection to Christ and people need connection to one another. So I pray more people take up you on that invitation to get to know you better and to learn with you. To learn with you. This is the American Reformation Podcast. Sharing is caring, like subscribe, comment, wherever it is. We've seen our YouTube channel continue to grow and that's simply we want to get the word out of what the Lord is doing, not just through any one of us individually, but us collectively as the body of Christ. So you could subscribe there at our YouTube channel, or I take my podcast in via Spotify. Any comments you have, any ways that we can grow. We're always open to that in a posture of humility. So please hit us up and continue to follow the American Reformation podcast. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks, walker. You're the man, dude.
Speaker 2:Thank you Appreciate you. Thank you for the opportunity.