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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Missions for Everyone: A Missionary's Perspective on Gospel Advancement with David Chakranarayan
**Disclaimer: Due to the sensitivity of work happening among persecuted communities, stats or data/numbers should not be posted/shared on social media or anywhere online. For this reason, some parts of this episode have been edited.
Curious how believers can effectively advance the gospel amidst today's challenges? Join us as we speak with David Chakranarayan, Mission India's director of church engagement, who shares his incredible journey from the bustling cities of Dubai, Mumbai, and Abu Dhabi to his impactful mission in the United States. We'll uncover David's dedication to prioritizing the Kingdom of God, and his insights on the victorious nature of the church as outlined in Philippians 3:20 and Matthew 16:18.
In this enriching conversation, we explore the valuable lessons American Christians can learn from their Indian counterparts, especially in terms of bold faith in the face of persecution. Discover how true discipleship transcends structured programs, focusing instead on replicating Jesus' life and building authentic community. David also delves into the importance of viewing your vocation as a mission field, using real-life examples from Indian Christian practices.
Finally, we tackle the urgent need for accelerated mentoring in church leadership. David contrasts the traditional Western model of lengthy theological education with the nimble, mentorship-based approach prevalent in India. By sharing personal anecdotes and the effectiveness of hands-on learning, he advocates for a more immediate and practical method of training new church leaders. We wrap up the episode reflecting on the powerful role of persecution in strengthening faith and the critical importance of unity in our collective mission to make Jesus known, inspired by the prayer for unity in John 17.
So I get to hang out today on American Reformation with David Chakran Narayan Did.
Speaker 2:I say that right, that's right, good job.
Speaker 1:So let me tell you about my brother, born and raised in Dubai, lived in Mumbai, india, abu Dhabi, wow. And then his family moved to the US. How old were you when you moved to the US?
Speaker 2:I was fairly young, so I was about nine years old when I moved to the US, but my dad, he worked at the World Bank, and so part of his contract was throughout middle school and high school. You have to go back to your home country one month every year, so I left. India and Dubai, but not really. So I had a good connection.
Speaker 1:This is going to be such a fun chat today, dude. I've been looking forward to it. David has been married 20 years, just like me, and we both have our oldest daughters, who are beginning their senior year of high school right now, and David is blessed with five daughters. You're youngest then, so give me the spread, sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's 17, 15, 14, 12, and 10.
Speaker 1:Dude, you are in it, you are in it. I'm right there with you, with three high schoolers this year.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you about them, though Ministry-wise served as an associate pastor, church planner, lead pastor, apologetic speaker and an advocate for children living in poverty globally, while working at Compassion International, love Compassion International. But currently and this is how David and I have gotten to know one another he is Mission India's director of church engagement and he's passionate about helping people in churches live out the Great Commission. So, opening question David, thanks for your generosity of time to help our listeners learn. Man, this is going to be fun as you look and you've got a perspective. Man, global church, let's laser in on the church in the United States of America. How are you praying for reformation, brother?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, as I was thinking about this question, there's just one word that came to my mind, and that word was kingdom. Right, and the reason I say that? I think it's a good time to be reminded of it, especially in 2024, as we're jumping into an election cycle. I'm not sure if people are aware of that, but we're going full throttle into it this fall, and I think it causes you to kind of look at you know, where does you know, our priorities lie in terms of American believers. So, like, don't get me wrong, you know, like, as believers, we need to vote biblically. We understand that the institution of government has been set up by God to promote justice and peace, right, so there's a biblical foundation, understanding of that. But one of the things that I think about is that, ultimately, at the end of the day, I'm reminded that I live in a broken and fallen world because of sin and because of that, I understand, if I'm true to scripture, that the only thing that brings lasting transformation is the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the way that that happens is for believers to be great commission minded.
Speaker 2:Now, I know that's kind of one of those terms that's thrown out there. Everybody's familiar with it. But you know, in the church world, if you think about it, you know, whenever you say the word Great Commission, your mind automatically goes somewhere overseas. Right, there's a missionary serving there. You know there's some pastors that are doing some training, but the Great Commission is for every single believer who professes the Lord Jesus Christ right. So, whether it's locally or globally, every single one of us plays a part in that. So the way that I like to describe it, especially when I'm speaking at churches, is I make this statement. I say where God has placed you is your mission field and you are the missionary you know. Quit outsourcing to others what God has entrusted to you.
Speaker 2:And so when I think about the American church you know this word kingdom I'm reminded of Philippians 3.20,. Paul says you know, but our citizenship is in heaven, from where we await the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior. So my prayer for the American church is that our greatest concern would be for the souls of our neighbors and family and friends around us, with people that we interact every day, and that we wouldn't wait for an election cycle who's going to be in Congress and Senate, who's going to be in the president presidency? Because at the end of the day, we have a savior who's seated at the right hand of the father, interceding on our behalf, and he has all authority and he is leading his church. Matthew 16, 18.
Speaker 2:Jesus says to Peter upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Last time I checked that when you use gates, therefore being on the defensive right, so the church is advancing and I get to be part of the winning team. And one of the things that I love about you know, just being a believer and part of the body of Christ is that you know, a lot of times we read scripture and we read the book of revelation and we're like, oh yeah, we get to win sometime in the future. I'm like timeout, we're victorious right now in Christ and he is leading his church and I get to be part of that bandwagon. If there's bandwagon that's allowed, that's what I want to be part of.
Speaker 1:David preach. Bro Couldn't agree more. It is about the kingdom. My kingdom, jesus says, is not of this world, I mean before Pontius Pilate. If it were, it wouldn't be good for you, pilate. But I'm playing at a different plane, a spiritual plane and above, and we get to be seated with Christ, who is above, and that allows us to enter into the here and now with joy, with hope, with passion, with meaning and purpose. I do not need to be radically concerned. I'm a history guy, I know you are too, and as you look at kind of global history, it's complex. There's different movements, different leaders, different dynasties, whatever you want to say, but the world, let's just keep it simple. Just keep it simple. As you look back, what other time would you rather live in? I?
Speaker 1:think a lot of times the church can say oh man, woe is me. Would you like to live in Nazi Germany in 1940? No, I'd rather not. Rather not be like. This is a great time. The gospel is advancing technology. You can have you know, your different theories about what what technology is meaning. But while it is light man, let us preach and get the gospel into people's ears. That's the power of long form podcast, you know.
Speaker 1:And so we must have that kind of aggressive, with love, uh kind mission-oriented perspective as the church, rather than playing the same tribal games that take place in the political arena today Anything more to say about how the church often can just get. I think Christian I'm not. I am a Christian in the nation of the United States of America, to be sure. But that word just be watching, like how our words do they draw people near or do they push people apart? And the church?
Speaker 2:oftentimes we start using a lot of the world's words and it's not helping gospel advancement Anything more to say there, david, yeah, you know, one of the things that you know you hear in church a lot is like you know, again going back to the election cycle, you hear a lot like, hey, we got to pray for our religious freedoms. And I'm like you know, if you think about the Apostle Paul sitting in prison, man, he had complete freedom in Christ. And right now we have incredible freedom to share the gospel. And even if those freedoms were taken away, you are still free to preach the gospel. You may suffer consequences for it, but, man, there is no human institution or no person limiting you from sharing the gospel. The only issue is whether you choose to be obedient or disobedient to what God is calling you to do. And so I just say, like for believers, man, you are free in Christ. There's no one that's going to do anything from you to you.
Speaker 2:Romans eight you know what can separate me from the love of Christ? Nothing, nothing, you know. So go out there and give it all. Men, preach the gospel with courage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of my heroes I reference Nazi Germany is is Bonhoeffer, right, dietrich? There's a movie coming out with his story. Have you heard about that? No, yeah, yeah, I think it's coming out in the next few months. Here Our church has already we've got some insiders who are already renting theaters and stuff like that to take our church to see it. And just what I love about him is his discipleship, focus, his courage, his advocacy, his joy even in the midst of persecution. His prison letters they rival the Apostle Paul's prison letters, you know, and that's the same type of spirit. I don't know what the future holds of persecutions coming to the American church, like it is to many Christians in India and other other places in the middle East, right, uh, china, et cetera. I don't know. But I know when that persecution comes, we will the Christian church, we will count ourselves with the early church, as we were worthy to suffer for the name, that my life was hidden with Christ and therefore you can take property, you can take my life, family, et cetera.
Speaker 1:My life is hidden with Christ and it's easy for us to say I think right now but I think we have to talk in that direction, in anticipation of something possibly happening, but locating our firm identity and our firm mission in Christ.
Speaker 2:Anything more to say about the persecuted church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know we'll talk about it a little bit later on, but one of the things that I've noticed is, you know, especially in light of COVID, you know, what I think COVID did was especially when it came to the church.
Speaker 2:I think it exposed who we were spiritually right. And there were people that were kind of just showing up to church for the social atmosphere, for the programming you know how can it meet my needs? And then, when it actually came time to be worshiping or going to church or getting back into church, you're like looking around, going man, I thought these people were committed and no people aren't there to be found. You know, and I think God used COVID as a sifting season to reveal who true disciples are and who there were, the people that are going to stay committed regardless of what happens with the culture around them, and I think that's what persecution does. Is that I think persecution forces a particular level of discipleship where you say am I truly a follower of Christ that's willing to give up my life for the cause of Christ, or am I just here for all the cool benefits that come by just showing up to church and trying to be a religious Pharisee.
Speaker 1:David. So I'm seeing a trend right now I don't know in your circles. I think Generation Z, some of our younger parents right now, are looking at the world in a different way. I'm seeing more and we're Lutherans. We don't bring the Bible to church often, we're people of the word. There's a lot of Lutherans bringing the Bible to church like wanting to be saturated in the word of God. The different, lighter way of Jesus. That's what they want to live into and we're seeing an explosion of a lot of young families coming into our community who are looking for that different way. I'm very, very optimistic. Any thoughts there about the next gen man being raised up? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think what it's going to do and what I love about this first question is that I think you're going to see in the next 5, 10, 15 years any erosion of institutional Christianity, of cultural Christianity, and I think you're going to see this next 10, 15 years where people are going to be forced to basically take a position where they say I'm a follower of Jesus Christ because I believe in the power of the gospel, not because mom and dad went to church, not because it's tradition, not because it's cultural, it's. I'm willing to stand in the gap for the Lord, jesus Christ. So I think I love that trend where all these cool Christian-y stuff is just going to be eroded and it's going to be the word of God, prayer and being faithful to the word of God, to church and the gospel, and then that's where I love where it's going.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, we have a lot to learn from our brothers and sisters in India. Yep, I've been connected to India. We were connected to some missionaries who were kind of grassroots missionaries Right when I first came to Christ Greenfield about 11 years ago, and they were going into places where I know Mission India is there too, but places where there was robust persecution. We're talking pastors being raised up locally, going into villages, tribes, where the gospel had never been shared, and many of those pastors losing their life in very grotesque ways, and they would bring pictures back and show me that. I mean, the struggle in the church in India has been so, so profound and yet many, many people are coming to faith in.
Speaker 1:Jesus through kind of persecution and suffering. So what do disciples of Jesus here in the US have to learn from disciples of Jesus in India? David Sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the things that I always share when I'm speaking at churches is this one particular statement. I say this either you choose to be comfortable or you desire to see God's kingdom grow around you, but you cannot have both at the same time. So if you want to see a massive expansion of God's kingdom around you, it must be you stepping outside of your comfort zone and relying on the power of the Holy Spirit to give you boldness and courage to share the gospel. That's all it is. You know, overseas, you know they don't have advocates.
Speaker 2:You know, in these persecuted areas, the governments don't like them, the culture around them doesn't like them. They can't appeal to courts, right, because the courts can't stand Christians. So they're already at a disadvantage. And so, basically, they're saying you know what? We're always going to be anti-countercultural, and what do we have to lose? But our lives, and if we do, we're going to be in heaven. So we're going to stand for Jesus Christ, regardless of what's happening around us. So I just think this idea of removing all these comforts and these excuses and saying you know what? I'm following God's leading as he desires to grow his kingdom around me.
Speaker 1:That's good. What does a discipleship is a word that gets kind of thrown out. It's such a churchy, churchy word breakdown, especially in the Indian Christian church. What does discipleship look like, David?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the way that I describe it is how do we replicate the life of Jesus with those around us? I don't know if you've been reading this book. I've been reading this book by John Mark Comer, just talking about what this idea of discipleship and what it means to follow Jesus. And it's basically replicating who Jesus is in your life and then doing it in others.
Speaker 2:And I think a lot of times in the Western church we seem to have a program for everything. You know, why don't you sit in this 15, 20 week discipleship class and by the end of 20 weeks, you're going to be a disciple? I'm like dude, that's. That's not the way that it works. Right, like Jesus walked with people in their shoes, you know, and they were basically replicating what he was doing. Right, in terms of miracles, teaching, looking more like Jesus and I think that's the way that it's being done in India is we're not calling people to replicate personalities, not the latest cultural fad. It's who does Jesus look like in the scriptures and that's how you should live and that's our main thrust in India at the moment.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it should be the main thrust here. We have worship, small group serve, right, and what we've kind of found, kind of simple church type of stuff. What we found is like serving is a doorway for a deeper relationship, not just in for the church on Sundays, that kind of thing, but out in the community, and then those relationships just start to deepen. Naturally, you cause Jesus. The way of Jesus was out it was, it was gathering for teaching, but then it was just living. His teaching often was on the way. So how then do you invite people just into your life and I think serving is one of those great places and then, seeing your vocation, your calling as a missionary in your respective vocation which is very Lutheran, by the way, luther talked about this a lot you are a missionary there in that place and find someone who's on their way to Jesus and just start inviting them, inviting them in to have Jesus-centered conversations. It's not much more complicated than that, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, one of the things that really works in India, you know, have you read Rosaria Butterfield, the Gospel of Dr Zahowski? So she's really big on hospitality, right, and inviting others into your homes, like. She has a pretty incredible testimony. So she was a lesbian on a college campus. She was going down the track, I believe, of she was studying journalism and there was basically, I think it was, a Presbyterian pastor who put out an article in the newspaper that said, hey, we're inviting college students over to our house you know, open invitation and she took him up with the intention that she was going to go in there and try to, you know, be hostile towards Christianity, ask these questions. That was going to debunk him and through a process of multiple meals and conversations, she gave her life to Christ. Now she's married.
Speaker 2:She was a homeschooling mom. She teaches in colleges all across the country and one of her big things is like sitting across the table, like it keeps you at eye level, right. So you look at Jesus, you know they accuse him of having a meal with sinners. And I think, what if the American church, you know, because it's countercultural for our culture to be hospitable, right, because we're more like individual rights, how I feel. But in the Eastern cultures it's all about community and I just think, imagine what would happen if the American church was like hey, my neighbors around me, what if I invited them to a cookout at my house? What if I invited them to my home for a game time where I can build relationships with them? But all of those things are a bridge to eventually sharing the gospel and I think that we make it so complicated, but it's just one life at a time, right, and allowing the Holy Spirit to open those doors for conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's for some people that that kind of puts them out of their comfort zone. You know, and I'm hesitating right now because we've, we've done that and we continue to do that, we don't do it as consistently as I pray we, we win. You know you've got all these excuses. You got kids, we, we and it. You know you've got all these excuses, you got kids, you just and I think the American, the American excuses are so prevalent because we're so sports and all that, all that kind of stuff. But I think a little goes a long way, like if there was a rhythm, if there was a rhythm of once a month, you know, or whatever like we're going to have we're going to have three or four of our friends in there.
Speaker 1:It is, though. So I'm kind of I'm not balking at it at all, but I think it is a gift that some people have more, more than other people that are in a calling, even like my calling is to open up. Open up my, my home. You think Jesus didn't even have a home. He took advantage of other people's hospitality. Yeah, as he's, as he's going about, so, nonetheless it is. There is a cultural change that I pray occurs that more people pray for and utilize the gift of hospitality. Couldn't agree with you more than the reason to. I kind of sometimes pastors, pastors.
Speaker 2:And we're in a larger church, right If you've got a group of people, but it's just walking with people intentionally, where the gospel is shared, where the word of God is shared, prayer is common and eventually, long-term, there is going to be impact and results, right. But I think we're just so impatient as people that we just want results overnight and it takes a while, right To see that kind of kingdom impact happen.
Speaker 1:It takes a while right to see that kind of kingdom impact happen. Yeah, amen, amen. So what really intrigued me about like spurred this conversation to David and for us to connect, was, I think, a blog you sent out telling a story about church planners committing to plant two churches each. Yep. Tell that story, man. It's pretty extraordinary.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So you know India, the largest unreached nation in the world. Some interesting stats about India is that there's 1.45 billion people, so they passed up China last year as the largest population. Now think about this statistically one in six people globally live in India. That's unbelievable. One in five children globally live in India. So over 50% of the Indian population is under the age of 25. So there's an incredible opportunity to impact the next generation. Right? So there's a harvest already.
Speaker 2:So our church planters the way that we work is that we use all indigenous church planters, and when I say indigenous, it just means someone that's local. So you're indigenous to where you live, right, so am I. We're the best equipped to reach our communities, and so what these church planters in India will do is that they will identify a location where they're going to start churches. So in the process of one year, we kind of do a hybrid. We do one month in class room training and then three months on the field, and we do that over the course of one year. But in one year, these church planners have to go to the desired community where they want to establish churches, and they have to share the gospel with 600 unsaved families. Think about a 600 unsafe families in a Hindu culture in the process of one year. Baptize 20 believers and start two churches at the end of one year. That is the metric that Mission India kind of requires of them in terms of partnering with us.
Speaker 2:Now, I was in pastoral ministry for 16 years. I don't think I shared the gospel with 600 unbelieving families. That's, that's a ton. But but our whole thing is how do we rapidly saturate an area with the seeds of the gospel just because there's so many people that don't know Christ? So that's what they do in the process of just one year.
Speaker 1:Dude. So I got to get a little deeper there. In that culture do they just go and knock on a neighbor's door and say, hey, can we have a conversation? Yeah, and then they hear a little bit of and I mean, is it that simple? And they're like they got the whole cause here in America. We got to have a plan right. You got to have a plan, you got to have all the strategy to get to get by all these doors and stuff like that. So I mean it's the accountability mechanism of 600. And then obviously it's a little bit easier to track baptisms. But anyway, I mean it's just extraordinary. Get behind the curtain a little bit about what those conversations look like, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So one of the things that we require of all of our church planners is that they have to keep a record of all the visits that they've made. So you're talking about names, locations, and one of the things that our team in India does is that we vet all of them. So if someone says, hey, I visited this church, they gave their life to Christ, well, we will do a follow-up interview with that family to see if what this church planner is saying is legit, right, and so what makes it I hate to use the word easier, but what makes it more accessible, is that Hinduism, or just in general in India, especially with Muslims, and obviously there's different sects of Christianity, so on and so forth, but India is a nation filled with people that are worshipers and they also pray. So it is not uncommon for our church planners to visit a home, strike up a conversation with a family, and usually we'll provide them with a ton of tracts like joy to happiness, right, but that's just on the cover, but on the inside it's like more exegesis about Philippians, right, that's just how we have to do it, just because of some of the restrictions that are there with the government, and so we will ask people hey, do you have any ailments, do you have anybody sick? And it provides an opportunity for us to pray with them, right? So we get to plant the seeds of the gospel through prayer, which opens up a further conversation about the gospel.
Speaker 2:Now, don't get me wrong. There's places where they go, where they get kicked out. They don't want to hear about it, but that is their. Metric is that you've got to go after 600 homes in the process of one year and then, when they start to church at the end of one year, we consider a church about 15 baptized believers. The definition of a church and obviously it's not brick and mortar, you know it's you're meeting in someone's home, there's a community hall and we've even had, during COVID, we had church planters that were meeting with groups of people under trees in these villages. I mean, just that's where the access was right. So that's what happens in the process of one year.
Speaker 1:Wow was Right. So that's, that's what happens in the process of one year. Wow. So what is, um the pathway to call this person a planner from mission India's perspective? And you know, here we have very institutional you know, you go to the seminary or maybe it's some kind of online thing, but how and how is formation connected to discipleship? I guess that's a good way to ask the question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the way that we work. So Mission India, you know, in the US here we have about 40 full-time staff, but in India we have a field staff, about 550 staff, and they're in every single region throughout India. And what we do in India is we partner with about 2,000 churches, denominational organizations, is we partner with about 2000 churches, denominational organizations, and they will raise up leadership that are indigenous to their area, to their local area. And these pastors will say, hey, we have 10 guys in our church, they have theological training, but they have a desire to do something more and partner with Mission India, and so we'll go through a vetting process. So we will take those 10 through a one-year process where you know there's in classroom evangelism for one month but then you have to go do it on the field for three months one month on counseling, three months on the field, discipleship, so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:The Western model we kind of have, like you know, four years of Christian college, you do three years of seminary and then you know we'll settle you into a church because of the need that exists in India with the number of unreached, unsafe people, we're just like, how do we launch you quickly into a lifetime of ministry. So it's basically an idea where people are being mentored as they are doing ministry. So there isn't a long on-ramp to ministry engagement. So it's basically a true Paul and Timothy model where older pastors are walking alongside younger pastors as they are doing ministry. We're not saying, hey, finish all of your schoolwork, get your degrees, and then maybe we'll have a conversation with you. Hey, has God called you? Yes, do you have theological training? Yes, can we do a little bit more? Sure, but as you do ministry, as you're doing schooling, we'll continue to walk alongside of you, and so it's a rapid movement and in that process you're getting more people on the field because of the need and you're multiplying it very quickly instead of waiting for this incredible long on ramp.
Speaker 1:That appears to be the way of Jesus and the early church. Yep, Right, Do you know that higher ed for discipleship and leadership development, higher ed didn't really enter into the church's story until the seventh century with the monastic movement. Until we see, like, formal, here is your, here is your route, Right, and and then with the enlightenment and things, um, we, especially in the West, we kind of outsourced parts of formation to, to institutions. Uh, and you know, in in a largely Christian America it worked. Yeah, you know, the pipeline was full. It was just one generation ago, kind of the glory days, of kind of seminary education where, gosh, we were every class Now this is in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod but classes were like 150 to 200 students and some pastors weren't even getting, you know, calls to a church because they had a surplus and maybe they weren't gifted to plant etc.
Speaker 1:That's one generation ago. We're talking like the early 70s in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. How quickly things have changed. You know where, uh, where the need in our church body is, we have over 700 vacant pulpits in the United States of America. And and um, unfortunately, in our denomination we're just, we're really doubling down on residential only and and we're, we're one of the you know prayers of the United leadership collective is that there's openness, there's humility, there's definitely going to be humility. We got a lot to learn, but the institution exists for the local church and pastors need to be more connected to raising up future pastors.
Speaker 1:2 Timothy 2.2, find a man who can teach. You can find another man who can teach, and it moves from Jesus to Paul, to Timothy, to the next generation, to the next generation. This is the way leadership multiplication can and I pray does occur within, within our church body, but man for us, in a secular, post-Christian, whatever kind of context. Why wouldn't you bring people in earlier, Maybe before? Let me just, let me just dismiss what I think is a myth before they're ready.
Speaker 2:You're never ready, that's right.
Speaker 1:Like you're never you know.
Speaker 1:I mean you're always in process, because it's the Holy Spirit at work within me and I should always be under authority, right, obviously under God's authority, under a church, elders, whatever kind of authority. But then one of the metrics I pray that I get evaluated, by which I do here in my context, is who are you raising up, who are you raising up, who can do what you do? And then it's the simple I do you watch, I do you help, I do you know, you do I give feedback, et cetera. And it's amazing, man. I mean we've got a seminary that we're basically running in our church right now and all of June and July it's been really cool.
Speaker 1:We've been on ramping in terms of proclamation in other contexts. So in our kind of homeless, one of our homeless ministries, they've been preaching in smaller spaces and now in June and July at our Gilbert campus, east Mesa campus, it's vicar preaching, it's student pastor preaching right Prior to ordination and the congregation loves it, david, they love seeing the growth you know, and I can only imagine in India and other places where this sort of mentoring toward pastoral formation takes place, the church just eats it up.
Speaker 1:It's neat to see a son or daughter of the congregation depending on if you have women speaking like raised up to be a proclaimer. We need more proclaimers in the American Christian church. Anything more to say about what the US can learn in terms of formation? David?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a couple of things. I think you just hit on that. You know. Looking at, there's a guy in the SBC circles, shane Pruitt. I don't know if you've come across him, but he's talked about this issue where right now, there is a massive gap between the age of 35 to 55 in the pulpit. Basically, you know all most pastors the majority of pastors are older. Now I have to be careful how to say that, because I'm, you know, my early 40s you know it's going to be me one day.
Speaker 1:We're bumping in there, that's right. We're on the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there's this massive gap right. There's just not enough guys that are going into ministry. And I just think about the challenges that exist with that. And then I think about the other thing is like you know, when I was going through college and seminary and you know, it was like a guy would go to college for four years Christian college, then you go to seminary and then all of a sudden the church placement office would stick him in a church with a thousand people.
Speaker 2:I'm like what does this dude know about counseling? You know family ministry? Like no one has mentored him. You know no one has told him about marriage, the challenges of raising children, and all of a sudden you're sticking a professor to be a pastor in the church. Don't get me wrong, professors have their unique giftings right To teach us. You know the word of God, and so on and so forth. But like I'm like what does he know about real life ministry? You know what I'm saying and he's just. And then you find out like seven years down the road they quit completely. And I just think, like when I think about what's happening in India, it's like you're doing ministry as you are learning. You know the word of God trying to grow in that aspect, not not that there's this disconnect that exists where there's five years of this and then for the rest of your life. You know it's just. It's a both and process, which I love in terms of what we're doing in our programming.
Speaker 1:All right, dude, so good, and people who have listened to me for you know, years or whatever they know I did a good job keeping, I think, pretty narrow focused. But I need to have one of those conversations every single week, honestly, to just hardwire me. We exist, if you're a leader at Christ Greenfield, we exist to develop other people, not to do the ministry but to develop disciples in whatever their respective vocation is, all the way up and into pastoral ministry.
Speaker 2:So let's tell the story of.
Speaker 1:let's tell the story of Mission India and your current initiatives. Just boasting the Lord, if you will, about what God's doing in the ministry man, it's so exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So the Mission India basically started out with. It was a pastor in the Michigan area and he had written this curriculum. This was like 45 years ago. So he wrote this curriculum and it started to take, you know, gain momentum in places around the world. But one of those places was India.
Speaker 2:And so he gets invited to India, takes a group of pastors and he's touring through India and after he's done teaching, preaching, on the way back from India, he has the Jonah prayer, where he's like Lord, I hate the heat, I hate the smell, can't stand the food, don't ever send me back to that place, I'll go anywhere else.
Speaker 2:And of course, you know what God does with a prayer like that right. And so he basically, you know, like, has this vision of, like India being covered in darkness. But then he sees these pockets of light and, you know, god just showed him like these are churches, like light shining in the midst of darkness. And that's how Mission India started. So, over the process of about 45 years, you know, they've established, you know, a church planning program, a program for literacy, to teach men and women how to read and write, and then children's programs as well. So those are our three programs and all of those the main focus is to establish churches, I mean you bring those numbers in it because I'm hanging out with you guys, so it's just mind blowing.
Speaker 1:Yep, Like, talk about the role of vision, I think numbers. A lot of times in the church we're like we don't want to boast, you know, or even like dream too far because we don't want to be disappointed. We have a scarcity mindset, you know. Talk about the value of, like this big, hairy, audacious dream of you know, raising up people to proclaim the gospel, start churches, I think is very, very compelling. A lot of times our dream in the American church is far too small.
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah. And you know, with every one of those churches you think to yourself okay, if that's just just imagine the impact of that in the next 10 years, you know the impact of that in the next 20 years. So again it goes back to this idea of the long game. You know, and when you invest properly and you've done the right work and you know that God is in it, you know that he's going to bless it. Right, and I think about even like my own life. I'll share this quickly.
Speaker 2:So my family came to faith in Christ in the 1800s in India as a result of missionary movement in India. So you know those missionaries are not going on really nice roads. You know they don't have nice hotels, especially in the 1800s. And you know my family comes to faith in Christ. It changes our entire spiritual trajectory. Here I am, 200 years later, working with churches in the US to be able to partner with the church in India to reach an unreached nation.
Speaker 2:Now talk about God's plan not going the way that you think that it would have gone, right. And so we have to trust that God is faithful to his word, that he's going to take the gospel seed and make it grow. And so when you're like, hey, three, the number of people that are part of that and if they are discipling just one person per year, the huge ramifications that it has on the nation of India, where India one day may become a Christian nation, you know by, you know by the numbers, just because of this idea of discipleship and sharing Jesus. So I just think that's incredible to celebrate God's faithfulness in that.
Speaker 1:That's a cool story, man. I don't know that many of us know our story how my ancestors three, four, five generations. Where was the gospel first shared with my family line? I don't actually know. I come from European Scandinavian descent. Germany to Sweden, that's where our folks came, with a sprinkle of Native American in my line too.
Speaker 1:We just we just found out, but like where, yeah, cool, yeah, that's great, but like where I'm grateful. All I can say is I am grateful for whoever first shared the message of Christ with my, my ancestors, and then they pass it down and they pass it down and it got to me, and so there's. There should be this multi-generational. This is what Jesus invites us into. Right His vision Jerusalem, judea, Samaria, to the ends of the earth. This is going to go way beyond just one generation.
Speaker 1:But in the American Christian church I mean, we're just, we're so consumer and consumer is just here and now. And me and mine man, I pray for this because we're a multi-generational church that grandmas and grandpas have this longer range vision of the legacy that they're leaving and that they have this like great you know it's loving intensity to make sure their kids and their grandkids, if they're blessed to have great grandkids, they know the gospel of Jesus, they know how much he loves them, that there's one thing you know it would Jesus to Mary and Martha one thing needful, and may they choose by the Spirit's power, that one thing, that one person and His name is Jesus, crucified and risen. One. All of our older adults in our churches, if they and I'm kind of thinking about boomers. Right, the negative perceptions often of boomers here in the American Christian church Boomer, you had a pretty good like your run historically here in the United States is pretty good.
Speaker 1:How do you want to end? This is a challenge. How do you want to end? Do you want to end just consuming your own and giving your life away in service and sacrifice for the next generation? Anything more to say to that in the American Christian church?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think you know. This idea of discipleship that we're talking about is, you know, like we're all called to make disciples, and something that we need to understand is that you cannot invest something that you do not possess. Uh, so there's a lot of people that have just been, you know, professional attendees all their life, but they've never discipled people, and I think that's my challenge to you know, all of us, you know, and obviously you know God loves this church, both here in India and in here in the U S right, but at the end of the day, uh, we're called to make disciples. So that's our challenges If you truly are a follower of Christ, you have to make disciples, and if you haven't been, it's not that you're shy, it's not that you're backward, it's you've just been disobedient. Let's call it like it is Right, and so I agree. Yeah, that's. I think that's what God is calling us to.
Speaker 1:This is good, baby. Ok, let's, let's stick, because the boomer generation, you know you're, you're going to meet the Lord. We got 60, 70, 80 years, by human strength 90 maybe, but your time is limited. The wages of sin is death and we will die and our bodies start to break down and all those types of things. There will be suffering.
Speaker 2:Jesus says in this world you will have trouble, trial, tribulation, but take heart, have courage.
Speaker 1:I've overcome the world, so let's close by talking about the value of suffering. What has Jesus taught you and Mission India in general, about the role of suffering in the life of the disciple of Jesus?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, one thing that I've noticed about myself is that I don't like to suffer, I like to be comfortable. And uh, you know, what I've noticed, especially in what happens to me every time I go to India, is that my gratitude meter goes up significantly. Uh, one of the toughest things that I have to deal with when I'm taking pastors to India is that I'll spend like a week worshiping in villages, you know, in these rooms that have no roofs. You know you're walking through dirty roads and stuff, and the hardest adjustment I have is usually I land here on a Saturday evening and then when I show up to my church on Sunday morning I'm looking around like well, there's a projector, there's a nice chairs, there's air conditioning and don't get me wrong, we need all those things, right, but it's just this perspective of like man. My faith is so comfortable. And you know you think I think about India.
Speaker 2:You know India's ranked number 11 in the world by voice of the martyrs open doors, number 11 in the world by Voice of the Martyrs Open Doors, number 11 in the world in terms of nations that persecutes Christians the most. And you know, if you look at that 1040 window, you know which is highlighted mission circles. You know it's where nations are the most persecuted for their faith. Those areas also happen to be where the majority of the unreached people groups are globally, because the gospel is being oppressed or there's no access to it. But the encouraging thing that I find in that is that those highlighted areas that are the most persecuted is also where God is growing his church the fastest, and it's almost like God is saying I don't need any human institutions help, it's going to be the power of the Holy Spirit working through believers to grow his church.
Speaker 2:You know most people would be surprised that the number one place globally where the church is exploding is the nation of Iran. But you know, what do we hear in the news? Right, we hear nuclear weapons going to war, end of the world, and underneath this there's this kingdom where Jesus continues to grow his church, right In India and Saudi Arabia and all of these places where we think there is no hope. And so I think suffering and persecution is actually the avenue, the bridge to how God actually grows his church, and we see this precedence in the book of Acts.
Speaker 2:It is through persecution, it is through suffering, it is through being beaten and jailed, where God shows his greater glory and says you may have tried to stop my work, but it's not going to happen because I'm victorious. And I think that's that should be our prayer as well, that, hey, if persecution comes to America, bring it. You know, I don't have anything to fear. You know, I'm on. I'm on Jesus's team and we're going to ride this thing out and he's going to be victorious and people are going to get saved. And that's just what I find encouragement in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do not worry, I love Jesus words, his later words, do not worry what you're going to say. Yeah, now they'd been with Jesus. Right, when you're brought before Kings and you know those that would persecute you, they'd been with Jesus. I guess my closing challenge is and this is a gospel-centered invitation are you spending time with Jesus, listener, are you being saturated in his word? And then, as you listen to his word, are you inviting other people into the Jesus way of life? Is the fruit of the Spirit seen in your life consistently Love, joy, peace, patience, et cetera, kindness, pray for patience. Are you on that Jesus journey with other people? And then, is your conversation sounding like Jesus and is it with the intent that more people would join?
Speaker 1:There's two different mentalities I think that can take place in the American church right now and one is protect, and for us in our denomination, it's purity. We must focus on kind of purity of doctrine. The more I focus on mission, the mission of Christ, the, the King who reigns, who is over all things, the more I actually care. Yeah, yeah, doctrine actually matters, but it like matters big time.
Speaker 2:Trinitarian faith, et cetera.
Speaker 1:But the way I then talk about purity of doctrine is much more open and hospitable to other people rather than just. You got to look like us, think like us, use all the same words that we use in our respective tradition. And that's man. That's a fast track toward Pharisaism, very, very quick. Entitled Pharisaism so you've probably heard this continuum before in theological circles. So you've probably heard this continuum before in theological circles. You've got right doctrine. If you go too far in that direction, you can end up saying a lot of things and having a lot of rituals that Scripture never really and you move into Phariseeism, you move into legalism and pride. On the other hand, you've got your openness, your mission orientation. If you go too far this direction, you're going to end up a heretic.
Speaker 1:Liberalism, universalism, whatever it is, let's just stick to that middle way of Jesus. Purity of doctrine exists for the mission of God and the church exists because there is a mission that God has given us to bring the gospel to as many people as possible before the recreation, restoration of all things on the last day. And that day is very, very near to us now. And will he find us? Will he find us faithful on that mission as his church? Anything more to say about that kind of continuum as we close here, bud, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know just this idea of suffering. You know, one of the stories that we always have in India is we'll meet with persecuted believers, pastors who've been thrown in prison, beaten for their faith, so on and so forth, and we meet them from all different denominations, you know. And so if you've got like five pastors in prison one's a Lutheran, one's a Presbyterian, one's a Baptist I know they're not, they're fighting over denominationalism they're like hey, we need to pray to Jesus together. So that idea of different denominations, though it has its value, it becomes very inconsequential when you find yourself being persecuted. And so one of the things that we know in India, we always like to ask these brothers, you know, like hey, how can we pray for you? Do you want us to pray that persecution would stop? And they're like no, pray that God would give us boldness and courage, because he has done incredible things because of persecution and I'm like man, I I want that to be my prayer, right Like through my discomfort, uh, that God would expand his kingdom. So, yeah, I'd rejoice in that aspect.
Speaker 1:David, this has been so good. I've been dying to ask the entire time for those that are on YouTube watching your. The artwork behind you is legit. Tell me the story about that artwork.
Speaker 2:Well, I wish I could take credit for it, but I got it off of Etsy, uh, just ordered. So it basically has the wonders of the world from each different country, and so that's what I have behind me, so kind of a missions global vibe behind me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really, it's really cool.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:If people want to connect with you and Mission India, how can they do so?
Speaker 2:Yeah, missionindiaorg is our website and if you have any questions, you want to know more about Mission India, my email is davidchak at missionindiaorg. Would love to connect chat with you further.
Speaker 1:So it's just, you just went shock.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was my last name and I was like no, I can't do that, let's cut it down. No one's going to remember that.
Speaker 1:Hey, man you are, you're a gift. It's an honor to call you a friend and the partner in the gospel. Thanks for your generosity of time. We're better for it today. Listener, this is the American Reformation Podcast, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Sharing is caring and we promise to continue to have wonderful conversations, specifically on this podcast, with people who are outside the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, that we can learn from today. United on a mission John 17 prayer. United on a mission to make Jesus known. He is a King and Lord, and may the joy of Jesus give you great strength and courage to proclaim him today in your respective vocations. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day, david. Thanks so much, brother. Thank you, tim. Appreciate it.