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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Generational Discipleship and Mental Health with Charessa Koontz
Today, We're joined by Charessa Koontz, a seasoned director of Christian education, who reveals her fervent prayers for reformation. Charessa dives into the essence of our baptismal identity and the significance of communal bonds, urging a reconnection with God's work in our lives. We discuss the mental health crisis among Gen Z and Gen Alpha, exploring how social media pressures and the advent of the self-facing camera have contributed to rising anxiety and depression.
Struggling to pass down faith in an increasingly fractured world? Charessa offers profound insights into generational discipleship, emphasizing the critical role of storytelling and mentorship. We unravel the concept of God as a father and how our perceptions of divinity are molded by life’s wisdom and experiences. The lack of guidance in faith transmission today is a pressing issue, and Charessa passionately advocates for relational and incarnational discipleship where parents and mentors model faith, ensuring that discipleship is a dynamic process of learning and teaching.
How can churches better support families and address the pressing issues of our time? Charessa sheds light on practical strategies for churches to tackle mental health challenges, from seminars for parents to creating supportive environments. We discuss contemporary topics such as screen time and human sexuality, stressing the need for open dialogue within church settings. The episode wraps up with a look at the emotional and spiritual complexities pastors face in multigenerational congregations, highlighting the importance of authenticity and vulnerability in leadership. Join us for a conversation that is as enlightening as it is essential for our times.
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here Today I get the privilege. I hope you're leaning in, you're ready to go, whether you're driving wherever it is, you're taking this in, you're working out, you're ready for an invigorating conversation today with my guest, charissa Kuntz. Let me tell you a little bit about her before we get going. 25 years as a director of Christian education, working in youth and family ministry.
Speaker 1:We both are Concordia, nebraska, concordia Seward grads. She also she's currently working at Bethany Lutheran and she's worked on district boards, currently a part of the board of directors in the Texas district. She's serving in Austin, texas. She also just found out has a history in radio and TV which has served her well a communications degree as well. So opening question, sharisa, as we get going today, thank you for your generosity of time. As you look, you've served in a number of different contexts and you just told me you care about the church at large. You love taking kind of that 30,000 foot view of the church, not just church, church, local. How are you praying for reformation in the broader Christian American church? Thanks for hanging.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love this question and I thought about this question a lot because I've listened to your podcast and I was like trying to come up with some like brilliant thing, right, and it just came back to like the basic for me, like that we just get back to our baptismal identity, that we fully, like realize that we are known, that we are needed, that we are loved, that Isaiah 43, one is fully alive in our hearts, that we have been called by name and we are known that we are needed, that we are loved, that Isaiah 43, 1 is fully alive in our hearts, that we have been called by name and we are His. And I just think that that is such a grounding principle that each of us need to get back to. And in 2017, the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, I actually wrote an essay like are we still Reformation people? And, you know, are we still pursuing God? Are we still studying His Word? Are we willing to wrestle with God like Luther did and especially Jacob in Scripture? And like hold on until we get the blessing.
Speaker 2:We might walk away a little limpy afterwards, but like fully, just kind of understanding that God does the work and he's done all these things for us. And then what does that call us to? And I just feel like, unfortunately, we're not seeing a lot of that in culture today. And so, man, I'm just praying that people get back to that and kind of really wrestle with that for themselves individually and corporately. I think we need to do that really corporately as well, because we are built for relationship in the church to do that really corporately as well, because we are built for relationship in the church.
Speaker 1:So good, have you been studying at all the Gen Z struggles of isolation, anxiety taking place today? And I don't think, given that I don't think we can talk about identity enough baptismal identity enough. I've had conversations with, like Dr Bob Kolb and others, that two sides of the same coin is the identity and justification, like the way we talk about justification today in Christ is less maybe the courtroom and more baptismal. Anything more to add there, especially as we try to train up the next generation who's chronically anxious and maybe confused around identity issues?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. So I can share stats with you like nobody's business and I'm going to be a big name dropper because I am one of my gifts in ministry is a resource person. I love to point you to different people that are way smarter than me and I got to do National 24 last week with, like, cassie Morin, the Reverend Dr Peter Nasker, and I'm going to share some information from both of them. But they, I mean they are so incredibly smart, heidi Gohmann, on some of this stuff, I mean just incredibly smart people.
Speaker 2:But, yes, we are looking at the worst mental health crisis we've ever seen, and Gen Z and Gen Alpha the things that we are learning about them as a generation is pretty sobering and they are truly.
Speaker 2:You know how our parents, like every generation, always wanted the next generation to have it better than they did. This is the first generation where they don't, and that is a sad reality and something we have to really kind of pay attention to. And yes, I mean there are stats about loneliness and depression that, again, we might share a little bit later in the podcast. I know we're going to kind of dive into some of that a little bit, but I think a big part of that is the identity piece and how they view themselves, and one of the biggest stats that we see is what happened in 2010. The biggest stats that we see is what happened in 2010. And the research just shows us that depression amongst teens, both male and female, went up astronomically. We're talking 145% in girls, 161% in teen boys. That that number just skyrocketed. And, tim, maybe you know this or maybe you don't Do you know what happened in 2010?
Speaker 1:The iPhone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have the iPhone right, but there was a special feature on the iPhone that changed everything in 2010.
Speaker 1:Facebook? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the self-facing camera, oh sure, the ability to like, do selfies and take selfies. And don't we see that explosion in culture that the more people put these things out and they want likes and they want shares and they want. If you ever look at a teen's kind of social media page, you know they post a picture. I always love looking at some of our I follow some of our teens on our on our page and you'll have a girl post a picture and you'll see all of her girlfriends like little fire emojis and looking good girl right. But then there's also the sad reality that there's a lot of people that post incredibly negative things to them as well, which then also went to the suicide rate stats that increased from 2010 as well 91% in boys, 167% in girls.
Speaker 2:It is a sobering, sobering statistic that we just have seen this huge influx in mental health being just critically, three out of five Americans say that they're lonely on a consistent basis that's overall and one in four just don't even feel like they have somebody that they can confide in. And these are stats that, like Cassie, shared with us, but she's pulling these from like government sources and things like that. She does a lot of work with the government there up in Washington and it's just, it's, it's so. It's so incredibly sad when we look at it because again, in this day and age, where we are seeing ourselves more than we ever have before and the ability to examine ourselves more than ever before and let the world examine ourselves, that has become the forefront and the forerunner of how we feel about ourselves, instead of again that we're known, that we're loved by a God who created us, and I think for some people that's really hard to get to when the world tells them that their creation is not good enough.
Speaker 1:Wow. Self-consciousness and depression are intimately connected.
Speaker 2:Yes, hand in hand.
Speaker 1:So say more about that.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll just speak from a personal standpoint, right? So I'm actually I've been working on a book for a while and I will tell you the reason I haven't finished. It is it's extremely a painful book for me to write because it's extremely personal. I was born with a cleft and I had really great doctors that have done multiple surgeries, and a lot of people always tell me like I didn't even know unless I got really close to you. But as a young kid before I had surgeries as an adult, it was obviously a lot more prominent and kids were cruel back then.
Speaker 2:I can't imagine what it would have been like in today's society with social media and pictures and all of that being out there. Even looking at pictures of me when I was younger was difficult, and so even that scripture verse of you were fearfully and wonderfully made was offensive to me at times as a young person, because it was like, well, god, you made a mistake. I wasn't fully whole and complete and it's taken me a lot of time over years and ministry, and so I'd be like no, like yes, there's brokenness and things in the world, but like this is not what makes me whole. Right, my outer shell is not a reflection of who I am in God, and so I think that's such an important thing. So one of the things that I'm doing in the book is actually talking about the clefts in scripture and how they're beautiful, like how God hid Moses in the cleft of the rock right, so he could show him his goodness. Like I can't show you my glory because that's overwhelming to you, but I can show you my goodness and mercy and all those other things. But the fact that so much we play so much in our outer appearance at times and especially as a young female at the time that was just incredibly overwhelming and so battling between a God who says this.
Speaker 2:But then I look in the mirror and I see this. That was really challenging. And today it's even more magnified because if you even just type, you know this, you've seen this in your own life, right, like the algorithms in social media today. If you just type in the word beauty into Instagram, look at what shows up like, look at what shows up as the beauty standard, fitness, different things and then it sets this unrealistic expectation that many of us will never be able to achieve.
Speaker 2:And and the filters like now put a beautiful filter over your face and so many of our young people are using them, which makes them feel fake or invalidated, or, as they use the filter, I wish I look like this, I want to look like this, and and I can't, or I'm gonna have to wait and maybe have surgery or other things as I pursue something that I feel like I have to pursue to fit in. And I think fitting in is just also such goes against even what the word belonging means Brene Brown does a beautiful job with this that belonging is really truly kind of being comfortable with yourself and your identity and even being able to be with people, versus fitting in, where we will change ourselves to fit in. But belonging is really being wholly yourself, wholly human, and being okay with that by yourself and being okay with that as you look in the mirror and being with other people. And I think so much of this world tells us we have to fit in versus belong.
Speaker 1:Teresa, you rock man, I could listen to you talk on this topic for a long time. No, I love your passion and this is one of the primary topics that the church has to be oriented around.
Speaker 1:that the church has to be oriented around around mental health and around inviting young people to be face to face with God and then with other people, and when God looks, there's something about the human face isn't there and there's a. There's a lot of research that's been done and and we, we love in our congregation, our context talking about this, I think this upcoming Sunday I mean even one of the sections of the message is in the midst of that trauma, in the midst of that struggle, that insufficiency, that insecurity. Where's Jesus?
Speaker 2:Where's Jesus? Is he there?
Speaker 1:He's obviously right, oh yeah, he's definitely there, but maybe you didn't see him there, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, I think for me, I think it was one of those things that I just had to keep seeing him and other people and other people that were pouring into me and loving into me. You know, I also come from a family of divorce and so this idea of you know God the father, was also at times a challenge for me. I saw God more in like strength and refuge and light and some of those things, and again it took me a while to unpack that, to be like, oh, he's the perfect example. Like even if I had the most idyllic childhood, my dad still wouldn't measure up Right. Like I think it comes from wisdom, right, and wisdom is the application of like knowledge in the world. Like it's not just about being the smartest person in the room, it is a wisdom that comes from experience in the midst of that, and I think part of that comes from other people that just poured into me in really valuable ways.
Speaker 2:And I think that that is some of the things that combat the loneliness piece. Right, If we don't have adults speaking into young people, if we do not work on the relationship piece, then they are struggling to find Jesus in the midst of it, because how do they see the unseen God in the midst of their trials and their tribulations unless we, as the generations ahead of them, say let me show you how God showed up for me, Let me show you how God worked in my life and how he was faithful? And I think it goes back to I love Old Testament. I am like a nerd about the Old Testament. I'm an Old Testament person because I love the Jewish nation right, I love Israel and they were storytellers. As a communication person, I love the fact that they knew the story and in communications one of the number one things you get taught is whoever tells the story owns the culture.
Speaker 1:What stories are we?
Speaker 2:hearing right now Tim in the culture, right, and so they shared this common history throughout and they knew it. They knew the promises of God, they knew the covenants of God, they talked about them. I mean, you get into Deuteronomy 6, 4, you're speaking my family life language, right, the Shema, like you're talking all of this beautiful language where it's like we do this all the time. And yet are we doing that today? Going back to that question of are we Reformation people? Do we know our story? Do we know who we are in that story and know our story? Do we know who we are in that story and are we passing it on? Are we passing that faith on generation to generation?
Speaker 2:And I'm really concerned by that because I see generations in my own family life ministry that I am teaching the basics. I can no longer assume that families know how to do prayer together, that they know how to open a Bible and read it, that they know how to do devotion life, like some of the basic things that even I grew up watching right, that faith caught and taught kind of pieces. I can't assume that they come with any of that Like you almost have to start over from scratch because they maybe didn't have a generation that did that for them. They maybe didn't have a generation that did that for them, so, but I, yet I do see a generation really hungry to do better for their kids and they're like what do you have for me, what tools do you have for me? And so again, that's always one of the big things I try to do is just resource people with like try this, see if it works. You know, maybe it'll work for your family, maybe it won't, but just keep trying something until something starts clicking Right.
Speaker 1:That's good. Would you say that one of the reasons we're here? I mean I could get macro and say, you know, secularism, hyper individualism, the church, you know, struggling with the priesthood of all believers in the office of holy ministry, and who really does the ministry? I would summarize it as a discipleship failure. And failure is not fatal.
Speaker 1:The Holy Spirit is still at work through word and sacrament, to be sure, but if you were never taught, if there was never a rabbi let's use Jewish terms if there was never a rabbi that came alongside and said hey, as I follow Christ, so follow me. I mean, the Apostle Paul uses those types of imitation words a lot and sometimes in Lutheran context, we shy away from anything relating to transformation and imitation because it's going to be putting our works, righteousness, in front of God. That's not it. It's all by the Spirit's power. It's God at work in us, it's Christ at work in us. So anything more to say about the struggles of discipleship, because you can't take a young person someplace that their parents or grandparents have never been.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I think discipleship, man, there's so much in the culture right now of like, here's the model, here's this, here's the program, right, Discipleship is so bigger than that and it is that incarnational type, right. And even more so, one of the things that I say to kind of my high schoolers we do confirmation in high school, which I love because, like, you're not going to force a high schooler to stand up there and take those vows until death, you know if they haven't really wrestled with it.
Speaker 2:But one of the things that I love about it is I tell them all the time you're not a disciple to you, disciple somebody else. Yes, and it's hard for me to sometimes say that it's like I've spent a lot of time pouring into you doctrine and theology and understanding and digging deep, but until you learn to like share that with somebody else, then you know it's just learning, which is great, and I know that the Holy Spirit's working through that and God is working individually in their heart. But, like, your job is to then do that for somebody else. Like you said in the Jewish fit like, follow me, learn from me, because at some point in time then somebody is going to come behind you and say I want to learn from you. You see Paul, Timothy right, you see these beautiful relationships of encouragement and I say to people that's a question I ask sometimes DCEs when I'm in cluster groups with them and maybe they're struggling I'm like who's your Paul, who's your Timothy right? Like, and you should have one of each in ministry.
Speaker 2:I think all ministry professionals should have a Paul in their life, if not more, and you should have some Timothys. And if you can't recognize who those people are and name them for me, then you might want to think about that a little bit for yourself personally, of why don't I have a Paul or why don't I have a Timothy? Because we should be constantly doing that multi-generationally skill set. We should be lifelong learners. I mean, you never see anybody in, in, in, in scripture saying, oh, I'm done, I've completed it, I got the certificate, Like you don't see that it is a lifelong thing. And I think again, our kids are watching and learning and absorbing and if we're not doing that and we're not modeling that, why would they, why would they ever think that that's a value? Because if we don't show it as a value, they're not going to see it as a value.
Speaker 1:Well, one of the reasons why is our homes are chaos, our homes are in crisis and getting back to tech et cetera. So you you presented to a DCE director of Christian education If you're outside the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod cluster talk called Supporting the Home in the Midst of Crisis. You have three kind of main points in that presentation. Why don't you get in there? Let's get super practical here practical here, teresa.
Speaker 2:So, um, each month we each take a turn doing our topic and we were right in the middle of of kind of some some big things that were going on in our circuit, and so I really wanted to do this session and so, like my three biggest takeaways, and then we'll go even a deeper dive. Was that like? I wanted to make it just super simple. I wanted to give them an acronym that when your body and mind um is wanting to go to fight, flight, freeze, fawn, like all those different things like that, you could like think of this acronym and be like, ok, now I'm going to like or helping somebody through that, right, and so just a really simple thing. Then to, I really wanted us to practice and act out some scenarios. I think it is a lost art to practice like whether it's sharing your face story or working through conversations of how are we going to handle this. I think it's a lost art to practice with people that love you and care for you and can give you good feedback so that when those moments come, you're prepared better for the conversation, and then just sharing some resources. So the acronym that is important is just the word solve, right, the idea that supporting a family in the midst of crisis, the idea is like, okay, we need to solve it. And I, my mom's a teacher, my husband's a teacher, and so there's a solve acronym for kiddos, and then there's a solve acronym for kiddos and then there's a solve acronym for adults. So I'm going to start with the kiddos portion, that for solve it's going to be that acronym.
Speaker 2:So the first thing is to just settle in, like help them calm down, help children kind of prepare for the problem solving in the midst of, like, the frustration, the crisis, and for, for us, you know, like well, what, you know what crisis is a kid having? Well, everything is so heightened to them right, like not even being able to tie their shoe is a crisis. We're like come on, put on the shoe, like let's go right as parents, but for them, their reality is what shapes how they're feeling and how we handle and co-regulate or dysregulate, and all the language that we're hearing today in mental health is really important. So the first thing is just kind of settling it, letting them kind of calm down. Hey, I'm here, buddy, like I hear you, like you know it's what, like what's going on, right?
Speaker 2:O? Then becomes like observe, like, observe, like what's happening on, acknowledge the feelings, encourage them to talk about, like you know what's going on, because a lot of times I have a little one, that my youngest daughter I have to use this acronym a lot with her because she is the youngest of five girls you know, and so we used to joke that our fifth child either was going to be the best husband ever because he had four older sisters that were going to make that happen, or it was going to have to be a girl, coming kicking out, screaming and making her presence known. And boy, howdy did she so? But when she, when she gets upset, like I hear the upsetness and then it's like now I want to hear your words Like.
Speaker 2:I can tell you're upset. Now tell me what's going on, like, so I'm observing and like listening in, and that's the L right, listening and letting them identify the problem. Like, hey, tell me what's up, like what's going on. And then V is just kind of validating the feelings, right, and then which allows them to then move from okay, I'm being heard, to then being able to move into the problem solving kind of process, which then the E is encouragement, like, hey, good job, you know, like I'm really encouraging you with some, some praise and feedback on, like kind of what you're doing. Hey, let's try it again. Right, for adults it's a little bit more nuanced. Okay, so, as you get into the solve for adults, the else is just self-compassion, right, again, it's that settling in. It's just, this is hard, right, this is really hard. And then the O piece becomes we need to objectively identify the problem. So not only the problem but the problem behind the problem. Right, we all know that there's that the thing that's coming up for us, but it is actually identifying a bigger problem and I think it's really.
Speaker 2:I heard this said recently and I just thought it was beautiful and I wish I could remember who said it to me. But they were like when you get angry, the reason you're getting angry is one of your values. One of your core values is being challenged. Listen to it. Angry is one of your values. One of your core values is being challenged. Listen to it. And it was like wow, that's really powerful to be like man. When I'm feeling upset or something's like insides make me anxious, like it is hitting something inside me and I'm like what is that? Because that's that's also informing, right, that's bodily informing, it's mentally informing, it's core value, informing of like hey, I feel like this value is being challenged or whatever else, because that helps us identify those things. So that's kind of the problem. Behind the problem. Somebody's like coming at. You know my feelings about this.
Speaker 2:So that's the O, where the L then starts to. We're going to jump into the brainstorming. We're going to list some options, right, like whatever's going on, and then V is the very best option, and it's kind of the idea of what is the best yes of all the solutions that you're offering, what are, what are one or two very best yeses that you can go with. And then the E is experiment, go, try, right, and so the same tactics that we were taught as kids, when we were taking SAT test, to solve settle in. You read the question, you're like, oh, I don't know, like we have to start, okay, observing. I'm going to mark out that when that doesn't make sense, right, like all of those skills that we were taught on how to take a test or to work through problems are the same skill sets that we can use in our natural world to really observe what's going on and to settle in and to start really brainstorming.
Speaker 2:Because here's the scary statistic, tim 44% of Gen Z does not feel ready for the next chapter, only 44. That's incredibly sad, again, because there is a lack of not only problem solving but coping skills when they hit a wall, like I don't know what to do, I don't know what's next, they don't even, sometimes even know how to get to solve. And they're incredibly smart. I mean this generation is incredibly smart. I tell kids all the time you can do theology, because you do calculus, like, come on, like you know, I mean they're incredibly intelligent, but they struggle getting into even the solving piece because they get so shut down emotionally and mentally that they just go back in, and so we have to kind of engage them and pull them out and get them to a place where then they can feel confident and build the confidence that they can then solve the tough questions. And so I think it's important even for parents and couples to work through this, like, hey, let's practice what we're going to say and do. If our kid comes home and breaks curfew, like let's start talking it out, right, let's get on the same page and start thinking through it.
Speaker 2:But we use some really practical examples that were happening with teens and families in our ministry and so they had to work in groups to kind of be like all right, let's talk through it, what would you do, what would you say? And so it was really incredibly insightful and even as we went through various topics, everybody kind of shared like man, I read this book, it was fantastic, or or different things, and I think that that's. I think it's just again who are your Pauls and your Timothys? Who are the people that are like man, like and I got to tell you, some of the Timothys out there are blowing me away because they're seeing things way better than even some of us are seeing it and they're providing some insight. That's incredibly helpful for me, not only in ministry but as a parent, and I think it's just really good to be able to lean into those things and see what different perspectives and because of that then you have a much more holistic viewpoint too, instead of the echo chamber that sometimes we can create.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Thank you for sharing. Do you set up so for those who want to get super practical? Do you set up these like practice sessions? Is this like a class that you offer Because, like parents, need their hands to be held a little bit as they go through this? So yeah, are you offering this to the church or wider church in any kind of way?
Speaker 2:So I am trained by the US Center for Missions and Coaching, so I'm always available for coaching. I do a lot more coaching, though, for like ministry professionals, but obviously in my day to day ministry life, you know, when parents come to me and talk to me about things, I'll use these same exact practical things with them. I'll use these same exact practical things with them, and I love to do every year, different seminars and teaching opportunities for families, because I think one of our jobs in the church is to also walk alongside, but also sometimes to be the warning bells like, hey, here's the things that we're seeing. Maybe you're not seeing them, but we're seeing them and we want to give you some tools to get prepared. Not seeing them, but we're seeing them and we want to give you some tools to get prepared.
Speaker 2:I love doing phase ministry and helping parents realize like, hey, this is what you're about to walk into, this is a transition that's about to happen. So don't be surprised that your kid's going to start acting certain ways or feeling certain ways or talking about certain things, because that's normal, and I think, especially for parents that have never walked those ages and stages, it can feel extremely overwhelming for them as well, and, depending on where their emotional maturity is, or resilience, it can be incredibly disruptive to the family if people are going through these at the same time at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent. What I've what I've noticed too is that and this is based on my doctorate research is that pastors are pretty passive and therefore they may not consistent, and this isn't this isn't just about pastors. You can find leaders that will do this, but I think a lot of times our heads are in the sand because it's just too painful to even think about. I can look out at my congregation, a larger church, and just the simple fact that there's probably 20 to 30% that are actively engaged in a mental health crisis right now. That's shocking to me, and so I have one of two choices. We either embrace it, we talk about it, we set up environments where we're going to love and care for one another. We call it CG cares, grace Greenfield cares here A lot of mental health, parenting classes, a number of those opportunities is we call them on ramps into discipleship.
Speaker 1:And you think about maybe working with the homeless. Unless their bellies are fed, you're not going to be able to hear the gospel. Unless the home is stable, right, like everything, are people going to start to look at the local church and say you know, I can go there and they understand what I'm walking through, and they're going to resource me to walk through it with Jesus centered in my identity in Christ, through, and they're going to resource me to walk through it with Jesus centered in my identity in Christ. And they're going to talk theology, but they're also going to be up to speed on the mental health.
Speaker 1:I think the church ought to speak into a variety of different things. Today. I'll say this I believe that if the Apostle Paul were writing today, I believe I'll say this I believe that if the Apostle Paul were writing today, he would be focused on hey, are the processed foods that we're consuming, are those healthy for our brains to function well? Is the amount of screen time that we're taking in? Is that helping us be fully alive in Christ? I think we should speak into those very practical things, not in a heavy handed, like shame filled way, but in just. It is what it is and we're here to resource and care for you. Anything more to say about the role of the church?
Speaker 2:in meeting the mental health crisis today, sharisa, I think we have to be in that space and I think I always say to parents, whether you're talking about faith or not talking about faith, you're talking about faith right Like it's a, it's a value, and I think sometimes the church has been silent in some places and, tim, I agree with you, it can be overwhelming. I personally, coming out of COVID, the stats coming out of COVID alone were incredible, but I had youth coming to me with things that were so unhealthy during that time that then they were carrying out with them Things like addiction to pornography. They were left alone with devices in their bedrooms and all kinds of things, and so you know having deep dive conversations with both males and females about these issues. In fact, this last year I did a 12-week series on human sexuality, another one of my favorite topics, which I think is weird. People think that's weird, but I have no problem getting into speaking about how we speak about that and it's so interesting because we were doing a class for the adults.
Speaker 2:At the same time, we were doing a class for the teens and we were wanting the parents to know they got the exact same information, but we wanted to provide safe spaces for both of them to speak. You know their questions and things. And it was interesting myself and the pastors were taking turns, kind of floating between the two to so that we had continuity. But then the kids could be there and one of our pastors asked the kids like hey, how are y'all feeling about? They're like I've never seen a church talk about sex so much. But they were like but that's good, because we were, we were diving into gender dysphoria and all kinds of topics and we're here in Austin, Texas, like we can't avoid it right, like we need to give them the space to talk about it, how they're seeing it in their schools, how they feel about it, and give them a place to talk about it and just use some really solid curriculum that we used and to allow parents to walk that balance. And so I love when we do those classes where we're doing it at the same time and giving them that opportunity to kind of hear the same information but to ask questions in the space that they feel like they can ask and get some real life answers.
Speaker 2:But I think when it comes to mental health, we have to be there in that space because the reality is, it should not shock us that we have a mental health crisis, and I think it's biblical. To be honest, I think when we look at scripture and we look at all the different things in scripture, it should not surprise us, because we all carry a piece of Eden with us. We've never been there, we've seen it described in scripture but even if even for a non-believer right, every one of us innately knows when something is wrong or it doesn't feel good or it's broken, and this is not how it's supposed to be. So we all carry the brokenness of Eden with us. So it should not surprise us that with that then comes shame, comes the feeling of being homesick, the feeling of like what is going on and I don't know what to do with it, because it is everything we've carried throughout history, throughout scripture, and we see it. You know, I say all the time, and we talked about this again at National last week, and everybody loves Psalm 23.
Speaker 2:But to get to Psalm 23, you have to go through Psalm 22. You know, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? You have to even get to the place where you can say I walked through the valley of Shad and there's a table prepared before me. You have to understand and go through the reality of the Psalms, the reality of lamentations, the reality of exile, of exile and in reality this is where Dr Reverend Peter Nasker went was we are exiles. Like we need to get to the point, as believers, to understand that we are in exile, like we are no longer a Christian nation, we are in a post-church culture, and so, as we look at the examples throughout scripture, it's important for us to look at the exiles in scripture and to you know, as Peter says, like imitate me, as I imitate Christ, like all those things as exiles, like how we are supposed to act in exile and we've got beautiful scriptural references for that. But it's huge and I think also it just I think when, when we all realize that it's normal, it also makes it easier to talk about too, like it gives people the permission to say the hard thing and to talk about it. And I think for so long there's been this feeling like I have to show up and be perfect at church. I can't show the scars, I can't show the depression, I can't show my broken family, I can't show addiction, I can't show the different things that my family is dealing with in real time. And even if I do, then the implication is I should get through it very quickly and get back to the happy place and I think it's so incredibly counterintuitive.
Speaker 2:I love I don't know if you've seen the movie Inside Out or Inside Out two. Right, I just think it does such a beautiful job for kids and even families to really dive into what's going on with inside of you. But I have a friend that does social emotional learning and I've had her come speak to our kids and our parents before and she brought the feelings wheel and and Karen does this beautiful thing where she's like. Look at it, let's look at it. And 70% of the emotions that we use to describe things would be considered, as we look at it, negative or anxious, like the you know. So 70% when you watch the movie inside out, there is only one joy. What are the other emotions? Anger, disgust, embarrassment, you know all anxiety, all these different emotions. There's only one joy. So we only look at the movie if one person that's constantly seeking to like, be in this, like happy place, right, and to change everything, and yet she's having to live with all these other emotions and how we're going to work together for Riley and to support Riley.
Speaker 2:You know, it's all this language of like how we do this and I think it just has given such a beautiful permission for people to talk about it in a different space. And when I went and watched that movie with my younger daughters my one, that's 12, was sitting next to me and there was this poignant point in the movie and I just looked over and there was this big alligator tear just coming down and I, like poked my husband and I was like you know, like look over at your daughter, pay attention, because she just so connected with the character in that moment of like things that she's seeing and feeling and experiencing in the world. And so I think to give permission is really important. Permission giving is so important. Um, in ministry and life, again, it's going to those you know settle, observe, listen, pieces that we do in the solve acronym to just to just set with people. Um, the ministry of presence is huge, it's huge and and we've got to allow people to, to step and walk in those places people to step and walk in those places.
Speaker 1:I love it. I'm going to make a gender statement here, a general gender statement, because we're in a denomination where a lot of our churches are led by men, by pastors. A lot of times men have a harder time talking about their emotions, their feelings, use finding the words right. You think about ministry with men it's shoulder to shoulder, it's serving, it's kind of, you know, doing the meat cooker stuff. But like the heart conversation, we know we're feeling things before we're thinking things. A lot of times we don't even get to the why behind the what. So I'll just throw out a why do some leaders in our church body have a harder time like sitting and disagreeing agreeably and getting to the why, the value that's being affronted and speaking about how?
Speaker 1:I don't think we've been modeled, maybe the effeminate side of us and I'm saying that with all those that have female values to sit through the feelings of letting more of our, of our women, our wives, kind of help us navigate those emotions. We we may be too too right brain or not right brain, and I mean we're just struggling because we don't even talk about the joy center. We know that the joy center is everything we're walking through, a series right now called Joy Fuel. Like, the quicker I get to joy in the midst of the suffering, jesus smiling over me in the midst of whatever the crisis is, the better I can solve it, because Jesus is going to meet me right in the midst of it. She said it's so, so good.
Speaker 1:But I think we I think more of our guys, our pastors just need to be trained in terms of talking about our, our emotions and not seeing that and being in a Lutheran context, not seeing that as a motivism. Right, we even have these theological terms that lead us to move away from anything feeling related. Right, but God still meets us in our, in our emotions. Jesus. Jesus displays robust emotion, anything to say, toward pastors in particular. We got a lot of them listening who are trying to become more emotionally adept.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, and I think I mean, look at scripture, these are men that are writing these feelings. These are men that are crying out and the Psalms and, like David, is a guy after God's own heart and yet he laments, he writes these things. You see, paul, you know you were talking about the letters being written, like if he was writing a letter to the church. I don't know if you've seen the newest one from where it's like Elmo, it cracked me up. It was like, dear church, I hope this letter gets to you before I do. It was kind of like it was like a funny thing, like again, if Paul was writing letters to us.
Speaker 2:But I think you know men and this is one of the things that we learn like men spell love and even just their centeredness is in the word respect. Right, you want to be respected. And for women, you know they want to be seen and valued, right. So we see these like two kind of parallel, and the way we get to those places is extreme, is different, right, and God makes us uniquely that way. But I think, for young men, at a very young age you were told to kind of suppress your emotions, right, and maybe your own family didn't do that, maybe you were allowed to cry and to be hurt. But I see so many times like, don't cry, it's okay, like you know what I mean. And the shutdown of emotion happens very quickly for young men. We see it in the research, right, like it happens way faster. And even if it doesn't, they watch it happen to others. And that idea of I've got to be tough, I've got to be strong, it's survival of the fittest and all of those things. And yet when we pull back the layers and we look at scripture, we see some real honesty of emotion and I think it's such a beautiful example and yet we don't lean into that example sometimes because the world tells us something different. And if we want to get ahead in the world and we want to be tough and strong and not vulnerable that's a big word then we don't show emotion. And my answer is the final answer and it's the best answer and it's not even up for debate and I think there was a lot of generations that were raised that way of. You know, once it's said, there is no debate.
Speaker 2:And I think what we're seeing in the generation that's coming up is that if you really want to do ministry with the next gen, gen Z and Gen Alpha, you have to allow not only the wrestling to happen, but even sometimes and this is hard a little bit of open defiance and hold it Be like okay, tell me why you don't like that. Be like okay, tell me why you don't like that. And I think in my generation, if I ever had like spoken back to an adult that way, it would have come for us right, tim, Like we would have gotten it right and we would have gotten it in so many different ways. But, relating to this generation, we have to be open, genuine, nonjudgmental. We have to be real versus slick and professional, like right, there was a season where everything had to be like perfect and professional. They don't care about that. They want you to be authentic, they want you to collaborate with them, they want you to allow them to ask questions, because if they don't get the chance to wrestle, then they don't get to like work it through their own head and their heart and to say I now believe something different. And because now I believe something different, I am going to go live differently too, versus I'm just going to tell it to you and I think that that's.
Speaker 2:That's a really big piece and I think you know one of the things that we have to do as as, as Pete Nasker said, like as elder exiles. He gave four points and I asked him, I was like, I told him I was going to be doing this with you and I was like, can I have your permission to share these? And he was like yeah, and and he said you know, here's the four things that we need to do for the next generation is one limit with them. Right, we need to limit, we need to name the pain, we need to make the request to God and we got to make confession for the places where we've messed up. Right, and not only in our generation, but just as corporately, as people and as a church. Like, we have to limit together. Then we again, using the example of the church throughout the time of exile, we have to provide assurance, we need to provide a defiant doxology and we have to remind assurance. We need to provide a defiant doxology and we have to remind them of the promise. Right, even in exile. They always, when you look through the Psalms, even in the lamenting times, they would always say but God, right, but God and the way to, and he had us all do this at the conference and then they showed it up on the screen.
Speaker 2:Everybody answered this question anonymously and we were all. I mean, the room was like in tears because we. The question was this even though blank, whatever that blank statement is for you, yet I will praise you for right, and in our family that has been one of the biggest things that we have worked through personally. In our family and I know, tim, we haven't even talked about like necessarily our family, but we have five daughters and two of our daughters we adopted because their parents passed away and I was their family life minister, so I was their family life minister and then I was their friend and then I became mom and their mom battled cancer for 10 years and their dad died of a heart attack on a golf course and he had always promised the girls, no matter what baby, like, don't worry, I'm going to be there, you know, no matter what happens with your mom, she had triple negative breast cancer and it was a promise that was not his to keep, right, like we're not guaranteed another day.
Speaker 2:And so, um, I had to work through that with my oldest daughter and say you know, you're, you're angry and like, and she was like, no, I'm not. I'm like, yeah, you are like, you know, and I'm like you're angry because he didn't keep a promise that he made to you when you were 12 years old. Um, and like, just the tears again. That permission giving to say it's okay to be angry, it's okay to be sad, it's okay to be like. This is not how it's supposed to be. And then, yet God can do a beautiful thing in the midst of it, right, that defiant doxology. And at their parents' funerals we sang some joyful songs like, right, we sang the sad songs. We sang the sad songs. But we also sang some really defiant doxology type songs that are beautiful in our Lutheran heritage and our hymns of and yet God still shows up, and yet God is still faithful in his promises.
Speaker 2:And I think for this generation you hear a lot of the word resiliency, like we need to build resilience. That resilience is an unfortunate thing we have to all build because of Eden, right, because of the brokenness, we have to learn skill sets to get better, to then tackle the next big thing that's going to come, because we have been told as a world like it's happening and how we do that for this generation is incredibly important because their resiliency is faltering, because they're not building it. They're not building the coping strategies, they're not figuring out how to problem solve, and they're looking at a world that around them they're kind of like. Why even try Like? When they look around the world, you know their biggest concerns. When we look at what their biggest concerns are, compared to like even what our generation is, tim and the generation that is ahead of us, they're not the same. They're not. They're incredibly different.
Speaker 2:And so even ministering to a church of four or five generations is also incredibly difficult. And so I, my heart goes out to pastors and in ministry, because, you know, I get to sometimes get to specialize in my groups and kind of get to really focus in on them. But when you're preaching every Sunday, you are preaching to a plethora of emotions and feelings and unmet expectations and desires and struggles. It is, it's incredibly hard. And so for those pastors that are listening, I'm just going to say keep going, we need you, we appreciate you. And yet, you know, lean into the honesty of this is hard, and I don't have all the answers either. The world is big and I am just this part of it. And yet God has continued to weave this thread of consistency, of promise and assurance, even in times of exile and even in the times of like, where it felt like things were going well. I looked through scripture I'm like was there ever a time it was going well, you know? But there, you know, there were times of celebration and times of rejoicing.
Speaker 1:Jesus showed up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, it's tough and how I think pastors can lead from that place of realness and authenticity. And I think it is hard to be vulnerable. You're literally handing somebody a weapon to hurt you with. That's really what vulnerability is all about is I'm going to share some of the innermost things of my heart, mind, struggles, whatever and I'm going to pass those off to you. And you're trusting somebody to not break it, damage it, drop it, hurt you with it.
Speaker 2:And I think more pastors that can lead from a place that that is real and honest and and and not not from a performance thing of like oh and then like, look you know, but really from a genuine heart, those are the pastors I see that are really connecting and and and being able to to. I see the lines after certain services, right that, and, tim, I'm sure you've preached a sermon where then you had a line of people wanting to talk to you or your inbox was full on Monday. You know, like, hey, can we talk more about that? Um, and I think that's powerful and I think, um, you know, pastors, you have this incredible gift and this incredible opportunity to to speak to the generations and families that are dealing with these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very different and yet it's very much the same. The world is broken. We're rebellious sinners. We try to solve our sin on our own, in isolation. When we realize we can't, we run and hide in our shame. And the father pursues us and the height of his pursuit is in sending his son to become sin for us. The divine exchange of Jesus taking our sin, swallowing it, crushing it and then stomping on Satan's head through the his bodily resurrection.
Speaker 1:This is this. Jesus has walked our road. Jesus is familiar, hebrews, with every temptation that's known to man, all of our struggle, all of our pain in this world. You will have trouble. Take heart, have great courage, be resilient. I've overcome the world and it's not you who live now in your baptismal identity, it's I who live in you and so we can. Honestly, I am with you always, even at the very end of the age. He is with us and he shouts in our pain.
Speaker 1:This is another way to just talk about. I bet many Lutheran listeners wouldn't understand or that they're going to understand. You've been talking about the theology of the cross. You've been talking about it in a very real, honest way, especially for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, and I pray. We just are sensitive to recognize the different crosses, but recognize that it's the same gospel that changes human hearts and it's the same Jesus who's never going to let you go.
Speaker 1:There are last question here this has been so much fun there's a role for the intimate, I think, in the next generation and there is also a role for the intimate, I think, in the next generation. And there is also a role for the expansive, the large gatherings. Right, we're actually kicking around launching one of our campuses here that's specific for youth and young adults, just pre-kids, etc. I think there's, but then having to be still mixed generation, but we're going to talk specifically to that audience. If you want to come here and learn about that, like we're going to, we're going to learn right alongside, we want maybe you can come out and share a word with that that campus where we're praying about it into the future and it's probably going to be one of those collaborative efforts in our circuit to try and care for the next gen One, as you just hear me like. Throw that out thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:Teresa, yeah, oh gosh. Well, I love it and I think that's, I think it's man, it's the church, right, like everybody has different ages and stages and a thing, and like sometimes we need to hone in and see them where they are and and speak into them and allow them to, to kind of be who they are, right and and allow that and then having kind of that expense, it's one of the reasons that, you know, I love the LCMS gathering, right, because-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I'm getting to. So it's that big. It's that big event.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's that big thing and I, you know, I get to be one of the Texas district coordinators and get to just love on these churches. But one of my favorite things is is really helping those lay leaders that have never been to a gathering before. And my husband, you know, married into the Lutheran church. I got that Baptist boy to become a Lutheran.
Speaker 2:But he you know I've been to third, this will be my 13th gathering and for he finally got to go around the middle point. I had always talked about it and he always watched me prepare for it and all these different things, and when he finally went he was like I get it, like that was his, that was just his comment, like I finally get it, kind of thing. And I love our theme this year because it's so much what we've been talking about Tim. The theme for this year's gathering is endure and like what does it take to endure in this time and space? But how we go back and look through scripture of the endurance of the people of faith and I just I think it's going to be so incredibly impactful. We have been praying about it and I know God's going to use it in just amazing, mighty ways for this next generation and I know God's going to use it in just amazing, mighty ways for this next generation. But what I love about it too is that our teens get to see. I think it's incredibly important for our teens to see 20-year-olds loving Jesus, I agree. And so that orange nation of Yavs our teens need to like that's what's always powerful about camp ministry, like when they go and they see 20 somethings on fire for God. But then they also need to see the generations of the 30, 40, 50, like the youth leaders and parents who are bringing their kids and giving up their vacation time to be there, and they're listening to people that are incredibly smart and intelligent and you see people using their gifts. It's a beautiful thing that they see that our church says you're important enough that we're going to have this event for you and we're going to make it where, like, you can come and go to sessions on the topics that are the most important to you, that you need to like, lean into and get some information about.
Speaker 2:I just think it's a really beautiful thing for them to see and we even do sessions just for adults but for them to see themselves as the church there, when we worship together and when we do life together and we serve side by side together at a gathering. It's just incredible and I think it's one of those things that is the best thing that we do honestly in the LCMS is they get to see the impact of the church at large, they get to see the universities, they get to see the global impact and all the different Lutheran organizations throughout the world. They get to see that, and for me, that's why one of the reasons I'm in ministry that was a very critical summer for me was to see that, as this small West Texas girl that had, like only everybody was always wondering what a Lutheran was that that I saw myself as this much larger story and this much larger thing, and I was like, I see myself in this. Right, we want them to see themselves in that story and maybe even for some of them, I want to share that with the next generation too. Right, like I want to be a part of that.
Speaker 2:And so I think it's just incredibly beautiful when we do the really intense work and then we allow it to do this and it's like those breathing balls, right, like those like that, and that's what. That's what. That is Our life giving air. That is our way.
Speaker 2:Right, like that we breathe in, we breathe out and and I think that that is the life giving part of the church, and I think churches that are leaning into that are going to be the churches that people are going to be looking at and saying, hey, I want to learn from that, I want to, I want to see how what you're doing because it's going to be, it's going to be you're going to be the models for those, those generations that are coming.
Speaker 1:Charissa, you rock and I'm so grateful you're a part of the church, I'm so grateful you're leading, that you're learning, that you're resourcing, uh, and and that all of our listeners today, uh, american Reformation lead time. People also always like the spicy conversations about this, that or the other. Like this is as practical as it gets because, apart from caring for shaping, dreaming with, casting vision, weeping with the next generation, uh, lamenting with them. I mean what? What do we have? This is our call to the, to the thousands generations Like our life is but a vapor. You mean, what do we have? This is our call to the thousands generations Like our life is but a vapor. You know who are we.
Speaker 1:So I'm just going to give a shout out to boomers, like if you're a boomer in a congregation, get close to your kids. They need grandkids, they need lots of older adults. Go up to your pastor or youth leader and say man, I want to be a small group, but what does it take for me to just come alongside? You're meeting Wednesday, sunday, I'm going to carve time. When do I need to make a call? When do I need to go to a game? When do I need to show up for a kid, to love them and cast big dreams for their life, that they're going to be.
Speaker 1:This is a great time to be a young person Like I want more leaders saying like, yeah, there's all sorts of stuff, but you get to be an ambassador of reconciliation. You get to be the one that centers your peers on their identity in Jesus. You get to be someone that brings the gospel to the next generation. You get to have kids. A lot of the world they're going away from having kids. No, no, no. Young people in your 20s, 30s, get married young, have children. This is great. Raise them up to fear and love the Lord. You know like we need to cast that sort of vision. Yeah, there's all sorts of things that are beyond your control, but the church is going to be there to care for you and we're going to meet you in the midst of the muck, in the midst of the struggle, and you've given us wonderful tools to do just that today. If people want to connect with you, sharisa, how can they do so? Thanks for your generosity of time.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, it's been a blast just having conversation. I'm on Instagram and Facebook. I'm not that famous yet to have my own website, but maybe one day. So, yeah, it's great ways to write that book.
Speaker 1:I am, I have you know.
Speaker 2:I have to, I have to do my own problem solving to to get through some of those pieces. But no, I, I I do look forward to it because I I know the blessing that that is in the book that was there for me personally and I know hopefully it'll be a blessing to others.
Speaker 1:So yeah, amen, it's a good day. Go make it a great day. This is the American Reformation podcast, and we continue to have conversations, sometimes with Lutherans. A lot of my network, though, is beyond the Lutheran bounds. We need to listen, and we need to learn consistently, and we pray. That's what you experienced today. We'll be back next week with a fresh episode of American Reformation. Thanks, charissa.
Speaker 2:Thanks, thank you.