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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
What's Happening in Our World!? Rev. Dr. Gary Kinnaman on How the Church can be the Church!
What if the challenges we face today are the catalyst for a profound reformation in the church? Join us for an enlightening conversation with Reverend Dr. Gary Kinnaman, who brings over half a century of ministry experience to examine the impact of social media, COVID-19, political turmoil, and racial tensions on church life. Gary offers a seasoned perspective on transitioning from traditional church leadership to broader ministry work, drawing intriguing parallels with historical figures like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and highlighting innovative approaches to church gatherings around the globe.
We'll also share the remarkable journey of Pat Hickcox, who turned his barn in Alpine, Arizona into a vibrant micro church community. Discover how Pat's small gathering blossomed into a spiritual haven over three years, rooted in the core values of community and fellowship outlined in Acts chapter 2. This episode underscores the dynamic role of the Holy Spirit in bridging cultural divides and spreading the gospel, reminiscent of the early church's expansion from Jewish to Gentile communities.
Lastly, we delve into the integration of faith into daily life, using the story of Martha to explore modern distractions and the need for spiritual presence. Reverend Dr. Kinnaman offers insight into the spiritual awakening among Gen Z and the importance of humility and the Holy Spirit for leaders. Don't miss our heartfelt discussion on connecting with Gary online and deepening your relationship with Jesus. This episode provides a rich tapestry of wisdom, community, and faith for navigating today's complex world.
Welcome to the American Reformation podcast. I get the privilege of hanging out today with one of my favorite people on planet Earth, a leader, a friend, a mentor for me, a spiritual father in many respects for me in my 11 years, here at Christ Greenfield, the one and only Reverend Dr Gary Kinnaman. Gary has over 50 years of ministry experience here in the Phoenix Valley. If that name sounds familiar, yes, he has a son named David who runs a small little ministry called Barna, and it was written prolifically. David got a lot of his writing from his dad. Gary has a way with words, both spoken and written. His ministry is defined by humor, joy, a deep love for the word. Gary and I also share kind of. He has a Lutheran background and I'll let him kind of share a little bit.
Speaker 1:He's been on other podcasts. We're going to talk about the Holy Spirit today, the work of the Holy Spirit I've been focusing on this a lot today the comforter, the consoler, the deliverer, the creator and sustainer of our faith. This is going to be a lot of fun. So, gary, before we get going, how are you doing, brother? You feeling good?
Speaker 2:You look good? Yeah, well, I'm feeling as good as I can at this age. You feeling good? You look good? Well, I'm feeling as good as I can at this age?
Speaker 2:What age is this? You're not old. Oh yeah, I don't want to tell anybody on the podcast because they may pass out because I look so young you do. But anyway, my wife and I, as you get older, there's a lot of stuff that just doesn't work, and we've been spending a lot of time sitting in doctor's offices together and I told her you know, I don't think we have, we don't have to have a date night anymore.
Speaker 1:The doctor is our date. Well, I, I I'm praying for you, brother, and I know getting older is not for the faint of heart. It isn't. Praise be to God. We know the crucified and risen one who promises to raise us up with brand new, imperishable eternal bodies.
Speaker 1:And those doctors they'll be without gigs on that day. Sorry about that, brother. So opening question on this podcast Gary, thanks for your generosity of time. As you look at the broader landscape of the church, you could say in Phoenix, but also in the United States of America, how are you praying for reformation here in 2024? Uh?
Speaker 2:you know it's, I gotta say I I don't know how to pray because it's so complicated. Uh, and you know this, this has become the god of this world. And uh, the phone, you know this, this is, this is a source of truth and not truth, and there's no way to distinguish what is and what isn't. And it affects the church as much as it affects how we think about world events, about politics, about God, about ministry. And I left my church, I retired from leading a church. Um, I'm still doing ministry work, but I'm I've retired from leading a church and I just don't know how I would manage at this point, because of social media and because of, uh, you know the uh, really, we, we face three extraordinary things that have just changed the world COVID, of course, and then the political situation, which is worldwide. I mean, there's people everywhere. There were riots yesterday in London, venezuela.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Venezuela, the election there and then, of course, the race issue, and it's so. You know, I was out of leading the church when all these things popped up in a single year and I was on a Zoom call weekly with the pastors of larger churches here in Phoenix and everybody was trying to figure out how to do church and I said something that I think wasn't real well received. I said the positive of this is it's forcing the church to really think about what it means to be the church. I was at a gathering of some international christian leaders, um at a catholic retreat center. It was mostly protestant but some catholics. I don't know if you've ever seen that or been to a franciscan renewal center it's one of my favorite places on planet earth.
Speaker 2:Gary, many, many times it just felt fantastic and um, anyway, I I met someone there who was from the ukraine and and he you know, I don't think this, these were his words. But he said, uh, we, we've seen church blow up and I, you know, I, and that's I'm, I'm using that word. And he said you know, how do we, how do we do church? And um, I've got a really good friend.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you ever met, dav David Hinman.
Speaker 2:He is serving the vineyard movement now and David was on my staff years ago. He did a church plant for us and was very successful, but he's leading an effort with the vineyard in terms of small church and house church work. And he's been to Cuba. There are extraordinary things that are happening in Cuba and the church it's illegal there so and they're just doing church. The one leader he talked about has 100,000 people in his church but he doesn't have a church where they meet. They meet in you meet in thousands of home studies and he's been experiencing some of the same thing in Africa. So you look at the upheaval and I've been rereading a book on Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Speaker 1:Metaxas, metaxas.
Speaker 2:Book and, uh, and the axis, it's axis book. No, no, not that one, it's. It's actually a what do you? What do you call it? It's, it's a book. It's like a comic book. It's not a comic book, but it's a graphic novel. Cool, it's a graphic novel.
Speaker 2:And and I'm just kind of thinking, wow, you know, there's so many parallels here. So what he faced in germany, um, prior and during Germany, prior to and during World War II, so how has it changed? It's just, the world has changed. Everybody says I've never seen anything like this. My son is a researcher, does research on faith and culture, and he faces it, but he's's a dad. It's. It's really dark. We know we don't even know how to address some of these issues. Yeah, yeah, go ahead, somehow we have to find out how, how, how to do god um. I had a really interesting experience years ago. We had connection with a very large church in Nigeria and they wanted us to come and they knew one of the guys on my staff who, by the way, just ran for office here, lost in the election.
Speaker 1:You know, andy, oh yeah, andy and I become friends. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, that's wonderful, good man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but anyway, he knew this guy. He had him in class when he was. Andy and I become friends oh, that's wonderful, yeah, that's wonderful. Good man, yeah. So, but anyway, he knew this guy when he had him in class, when he was teaching, and he has a huge church and 40% of the church was unemployed. Whoa and I mean he lived in a house in Nigeria with a wall around it and two 24-hour-a-day guards, and he had a bar. He had a giant. It was like a castle door on his house where there was a big thing that came down to block people from possibly just breaking into his house. Bars on the windows. This is just in a normal neighborhood and somehow, you know, somehow, people just figure out how to do Jesus in those situations. And I came back to our church. I said, well, we went over there to help them do church. You know how to organize and they showed us how to do God.
Speaker 1:Say more about that. What was different?
Speaker 2:The joy. They weren't into all kinds of side issues. It wasn't about this, it wasn't about that. There was no whining about things. People just came to church and and church lasted forever and you know, it was all they had and but there was, there's a was a reality in the music and just conversing with them. Just I know I have a nephew who was doing some work in Mexico and he came back he cried because people had nothing. I mean, they were working with some people who lived in garbage dumps, you know, but they were so full of joy and generous and anyway, we're just, we're spoiled.
Speaker 1:Well yeah, and maybe the Lord is shifting us, stretching us and inviting us to get back to the basics, gary, of meeting and following Jesus, being reminded we're orienting so consistently around this, around your identity. There is no other identity marker other than mine, god says. You are your mind and because you're mine, I forgive you. All of my gifts are there for you, and one of those biggest gifts I mean back to the basics are human interaction face-to-face kind of ironic, we're doing this via video, but face-to-face life on life. A spiritual father, mother, mentor, disciple maker who's meeting with me consistently over coffee, beer, whatever, checking in on me, caring for me, heart, body, mind, spirit. And then, as I'm receiving, I'm also then in the journey of giving my life away. Life on life and small, I think, the future. This is why I'm talking a lot, gary, about bivocational ministry. The only way a ministry like with 100,000 members you know scales is through bivocational people, people in the marketplace meeting, following Jesus, who have the ability to teach others right, getting back to the basics, how to share the gospel and finding others who can also teach. I think there's a micro church movement taking place.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you a really encouraging story. We've got a long time he's probably he's a little younger than you long time member who has a place, a ranch up in Alpine, arizona and shout out to Pat Hickox. And Pat came into our office and said hey, there's no, there's like no churches in our, in our area. Would you help me start a church? I got a barn. I think I can make make it into a space for 30 people or so and fast forward. This is that dream was like three years ago. He was really angry Also, he would tell you this through COVID, through all of the mess. He just was like there's got to be a better way. I don't want the last 20 years of my life to be spent angry and internally focused. And so he started a church.
Speaker 1:It's reaching new people, our vicars, student pastors, pastors going up to preach. He's doing satellite venue. Now I'm recording tomorrow, gary, our first for Alpine, only because now he's going to meet every single week. They're deepening relationships in the community and he goes because he's got 11 acres, he goes. You know, if this thing gets big enough, I'm going to build. I'm going to build like a bigger church to seat about 100 people, because people need the gospel here, People need community. Isn't that cool. Like could we set space to launch ministries like that? And all I had to say as a leader was like yeah, let's do it. What's prohibiting us, you know? So anything more to say about the need to get back to the basics.
Speaker 2:Well, the basics are community and when you go back, when you go back to the essential basics, in Acts chapter.
Speaker 1:Two's in Acts chapter 2.
Speaker 2:And I love this passage that the Holy Spirit fell on the church. Nobody really knows what's going on. Peter's trying to explain it and he says it's from a prophecy in the Old Testament and I will pour out my spirit on all flesh. And the crowd says what must we do to be saved? And he says what must we do to be saved? And he says repent, stop the way you're thinking and readjust, think biblically and be baptized and you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And we can talk about that in a little bit. I think you'd like to talk about the idea of God's power to make this happen, but then I don't know if you know this verse. I love to talk about some obscure verses that are right in the middle of some of the most well-known passages in the Bible.
Speaker 2:At the end it says Peter, he admonished them with other words, saying save yourselves. You, you gotta look on your faith like I gotta look this up in the Bible. Save yourselves, and. And he just gets. They just ask how to be saved. Then he says save yourselves there. Only Jesus can save our soul. But and then how do you save yourselves? Well, the early save yourselves, he says from this perverse generation. Yeah, there we go. So how did they do it? There were four things. They committed themselves to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, to the teaching of the apostles.
Speaker 2:And that wasn't like teaching doctrine. That was now, how do we follow Jesus in a in a pagan world, and so, and, and. Then there was prayer, fellowship, and, and the apostles teaching that's. That's really. Those are the essentials, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, we love to especially, you know, I cover up a Lutheran tradition If you miss, let me say, if you miss on those things, you're, you're going to miss on the character of Christ and you're going to put stumbling blocks in the path to people meeting and following Jesus. Um, and and we may end up. We may end up speaking against what God wants to do when we put obstacles. You could use, believe, belong, behave whatever, or you have to behave a certain way. It appears as if and this is the wild thing about the Holy Spirit how in the world did the Holy Spirit allow the message of the crucified and risen Jesus to pervade, to be infused in both, because I don't think we give the Holy Spirit enough credit here, both in a Jewish context, because it's largely Jews, diaspora, diaspora, jews little side note about the diaspora.
Speaker 1:Many of them probably received the message of Yahweh from prophets like Daniel back, you know, because you've got people from Mesopotamia. These are like they've come out of pagan groups. They're Jews. So Jews, both those that are Orthodox and those that have been Gentiles, kind of grafted into the message of Yahweh before Jesus. But then also places like Corinth, for goodness sake, where there's pagan. I mean you think about the sexual ethic of a lot of these communities? We're a lot like Corinth, for goodness sake, where there's pagan. I mean you think about the sexual ethic of a lot of these communities. We're a lot like Corinth here in the United States of America, to be sure, today. So how was it that? The message of Jesus I just want you to preach a little bit for us.
Speaker 1:The message of Jesus crossed Jew to Gentile boundary. That was no small thing, and that's the story that the book of Acts tells right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yep, so ask me that question again.
Speaker 1:What's most amazing to you, that the gospel went from Jew. Jesus is a Jew.
Speaker 2:Nazareth.
Speaker 1:But how did this happen outside the Holy Spirit? What amazes you about how the message went from Jew to Gentile?
Speaker 2:I'll talk about the birth of the church and how. I don't know if you know this, tim, but Jack Hayford who was? He was a leader in the Pentecostal movement. He was on the cover of Christianity Today some years ago and it said the gold standard of the Pentecostal movement, and so he collaborated to put together a study Bible and it's called Spirit-Filled Life Study Bible, published by Thomas Nelson, and I was invited to do the footnotes, the introduction footnotes for the Book of Acts.
Speaker 1:Wow, Gary.
Speaker 2:Kind of a big deal Gary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a big deal.
Speaker 2:You was a big deal. It was amazing and, um, one of the things that I have done, my, my, my church was a charismatic church but, like, like my successor said, we want to be a church that's open to the Holy spirit. But you know where you don't have to check your brain at the door, and that's the way we were. But you know, I just saw, what emerged for me is the theology of the Holy Spirit and the necessity of the Holy Spirit in Luke and Acts. Luke and Acts. So unfortunately, in the arrangement of the books of the New Testament, the Gospel of John, it interrupts what Luke is trying to tell us in two volumes, first the life of Jesus and then the life of the early church. And the one thing that you see all the way through this is the theology of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is baptized and then the Spirit comes upon him and the first thing that he says about his ministry is he says he opens the scroll, rolls the scroll out, a book of Isaiah, and he reads these words the Holy Spirit is upon me. Now.
Speaker 2:You know there's a lot of theological discussion about this. You know, did Jesus do miracles because he was God in the flesh? Or did he do miracles? Because he had the Holy Spirit on him, and so the Holy Spirit came on Jesus. I like to say that for his first 30 years Jesus was a good Christian. He grew in stature and in favor and wisdom and favor with God and man. But when the Holy Spirit came on his life he became a dangerous Christian, and that now birthed in him a ministry of miracles, spiritual warfare, the reality of the other dimension, which is so unfamiliar to us. I mean, even Paul said we see through a glass, darkly, we live in a fallen world, and part of that fallen world is that we have eyes that are blinded to the spiritual dimension. And so Jesus, now he's filled with the Spirit. And then, at the end of the Gospel of Luke, he gives us the Great Commission and then he says now go into all the world. And he says at the end but wait in Jerusalem. And that's repeated. That concept is repeated when we begin the book of Acts. He tells the disciples wait until you receive the Holy Spirit. And then so Peter says now that this is the fulfillment, the Holy Spirit is being poured out on all flesh.
Speaker 2:But here's my line, this was my theme in doing the work on the book of Acts for the study Bible. The book of Acts is the story of the people of God receiving what Jesus received in order to do what Jesus did Love, that the book of. But the book of Acts is not possible without the Holy spirit. And the Holy spirit, you know, jesus implied this. You know he said the day is coming when men won't worship in this mountain or that mountain he was talking about Samaria and Jerusalem but but they'll worship in spirit and in truth. And you know, the promise of God's kingdom to Abraham was, you know, that you're going to be a blessing to the nations, and so this was always part of God's plan. And the Holy Spirit has fallen on all flesh. And the Holy Spirit has fallen on all flesh.
Speaker 2:And now, you know, I think that immediate power of the Holy Spirit is absent in American culture and American churches. I mean, I was a pastor of a charismatic church. But we get back to Africa. You know, I saw the reality of the Holy Spirit in a way in that African community that I didn't see coming back. Coming back to my church, you know, and and there's this one place where Jesus, he couldn't do many mighty miracles in one place because because the people of the of the community you know were were were kind of unbelievers. We have so many things that have crowded into our lives.
Speaker 2:If I can share another story, years ago I was in a Christian community, youth with a mission, and I was doing some teaching there and they had a guest speaker. This was in the 1980s. He was a pastor from China in the 1980s and somehow he had gotten permission to leave and he said this was in the 1980s. Somehow he had gotten permission to leave and he said this was in the 1980s. This didn't even exist. And he said he said I've been in your comfort country for just two weeks and he said I found it's very, very hard to be a Christian here. And then he paused for a fact and he said you have so many distractions and you know we just so.
Speaker 2:But talking about again, talking about the Holy Spirit I think you participated in this here in in in the phoenix area. Uh, jad levi was. The guys were interviewing some of the pastors about evangelism. Yeah, and I think there were 50 pastors were. And what are you doing about evangelism? And only I think, I think the number was only 14 of the pastors interviewed mentioned the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:I hope I was one of them, yeah, anyway it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not. It's not evil, it's just we have so much else going on.
Speaker 2:The apostle Paul said our gospel did not come to you in in the words of human icing, words of human wisdom, but in a demonstration of the Holy Spirit, of power. And we're afraid of it. We have, there's this dichotomy between the natural and the supernatural. And you go to Africa and everybody, whether or not they're Christians, they believe in the supernatural dimension. And in other parts of the world, in Latin America, they just believe and you can say, well, it's superstition and it's more just a misbelief in this whole system of the way God has created the world and how we have the natural world and the supernatural world.
Speaker 1:I think, gary, this is so good of the natural world and the supernatural world. I think, gary, this is so good. I think there could be an awakening revival in America, the US, especially in Gen Z, and I'd be curious to hear what David says. I know it's not across the board, but I think there's a group of younger followers of Jesus I'm seeing it anecdotally in our context where there's a heightened sense of spirituality. There's a heightened sense that this, the phone and tech in general, are hyper, individualized, consumeristic, entertainment oriented, hyper-individualized, consumeristic, entertainment-oriented. This is not producing a life of significance, meaning and purpose and deep connection. It's not. And so we need though I think there's a heightened if leaders will talk about the Holy Spirit and invite the Holy Spirit to lead young and old, but young people in particular. Lead young and old, but young people in particular, into the truth of Jesus and the presence of Christ indwelling in you. That Christ makes you his dwelling place in your body. Now I mean, think about the mystery here. Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. You are not your own. You've been bought with a price. Honor him in everything because he's made you his, he's made you his, and the mystery of now, the bride of Christ being mobilized to be the hands and feet of Jesus.
Speaker 1:I think there was a season where this was like a pithy, was kind of a pithy saying no, it's a very real invitation. People are walking in darkness, people are walking with anxiety and despair, depression, deep underlying sadness, and Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, wants to meet them in that struggle. It's centered in the Word and you know I'm a Lutheran. There are some Lutherans who are listening to this podcast. But the days of us being very kind of tepid and passive in the way we talk about the Holy Spirit are gone and for us to just dismiss the Holy Spirit because of certain abuses that some may have experienced within our tribe, those days I pray we can lead through with confession and absolution and then invite the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, to unite us to Christ and to mobilize us for mission.
Speaker 1:The sending of I love this the sending of Jesus doesn't happen apart from the work of the Holy Spirit right in his life. As the Father sent the Son, so the Father and the Son then have sent that same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead out and amidst the church. So what do you think—I kind of tease out the Lutheran context there—what do you think we as Lutherans—and you can speak, you know you will speak frankly—what do you? Think we often miss regarding the work of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:Again, I don't think it's a Lutheran thing, I think it's a Western cultural thing. Good, and I think every church they just we're used to doing a church, we, you know, teach the Bible, believe in the Bible, worship. But there's a, I think, well, a couple of things. First of all, you know, when you talk about the younger generation, it's about community. It is deeply about community and how we need each other and how we need each other to do life. And this was what Dietrich Bonhoeffer was really committed to as he saw the world unraveling Life together. That's one of his classic books. And so you know, this idea of community that we have to be real. It's not a classroom Church, isn't an information dump. It's about lives living in community with one another. They devoted themselves to the koinonia, the fellowship, sharing things in common. That was the early church. But then the other thing is maybe, to use some other terms, the Barna Group has found that in the younger generations they're very open to what I might term as the transcendent or the other world, and that other world is not all definable. And maybe you've heard me use this term, tim.
Speaker 2:I talk about there's the doctrine of the Holy Spirit and then I talk about how that's the doctrinal side of God. You know we have it all lined up. But then what did Jesus say about the Holy Spirit? He's like the wind. So I talk about the windy side of God. It cannot be. You can't contain it, you can't. Jesus says you don't know where it's coming from, you don't know where it's going, and and that you know, we want. We want things lined up. You know, our background is German.
Speaker 2:We must have it all together and can it be explained? And I heard this joke about the German guy in Minnesota. He loved his wife so much he almost told her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you are stoic and suspicious.
Speaker 2:But the idea of experiencing God. I mean for a long time in American evangelicalism just to talk about experience of God was almost like heretical and the idea that you can. Paul said, for example, that he was certainly the best. He was the best trained in theology and scripture and theology of all the writers of the Bible.
Speaker 2:But, in the book of Acts he says three times I wasn't disobedient to the heavenly vision. He had an experience that opened his heart. Or the two men walking with Jesus on the road to Emmaus, he said did not our hearts burn inside of us? I hope I can buy this a little edgy story, but I'm going to tell it because it's a true story. You know, we had a guy coming to our church, bob. He was a biker, he had a 10 foot long chopper, you know, and he parked it in front of the church and he had tattoos. This was before. Tattoos were just like art, these were were threatening tattoos and he wore a shirt up like that so you could see the tattoos, stubby guy. And he just showed up at the church I'm not sure how he got there and he was coming on Sundays and I was standing in the lobby, just right by one of the doors into the worship center, and he said to me. He said you know, I keep coming back here. I don't know why he's like angry. You know, his tattoos are bleeding. And he says to me, and every time I go in there, he said, I just start crying. What the hell is that? I said, bob, you know, not in the church lobby, but you know, it was a simple way of saying I'm being touched. I said, bob, it's the presence of God in there when you're with God's people.
Speaker 2:And Paul, there's a little kind of little side note. In 1 Corinthians Paul says you know, if you all speak in tongues, you know you said earlier, there've been abuses. Abuses with the spirit of God have been going on for 2000 years. But anyway, paul writes you know, if everybody's speaking in tongues, they're going to think you're crazy. That's what you call a seeker, sensitive worship, you know. And and then he said. He said, but but every, if everybody's prophesying and I, I can't really get my head around exactly what he means in that phrase, but he said the people who are visiting the secrets of the heart will be revealed and they will fall on their knees and say God is here. So, like you're a pastor and that was that was always my, you know, when you think about your services, tim, you know well, people say that was a great message, it was really helpful.
Speaker 2:You know, or do this. You know God's in there. Yeah, god is in that place. And sometimes you feel that in churches they're not necessarily Pentecostal, but you go in that. I visited Christ Christ Church of the Valley, the CCV. It's a huge, huge church, multi campus here in Phoenix, and if they're not, it's not a Pentecostal church. But at the end of the service I just I felt God there. I just felt God there, I just said God is in this place and that's something you can't exactly define, you can't exactly make it happen.
Speaker 2:In the book of Revelation there are seven churches and Jesus says, you know, he threatens one. I'm going to remove your candlestick, and the removing of the candlestick is my presence isn't going to be evident. You know, it's the ancient word Ichabod, the glorious God, and you know, and we have to find it in the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church worldwide is finding it. You know, protestants, don't you know? Think of this as you know this. You know protestants, don't you know? Think of this as you know, the catholics.
Speaker 2:But pope john the 23rd prayed for the holy spirit to come back to the church and I was in rome, uh, on the platform with pope francis, celebrating the 50th anniversary of the outpouring of the holy spirit on the church, and we filled the ancient Circus Maximus and we were singing Hillsong music, you know, and the theme was Jesus is Lord and people were raising their hands. Wow yeah, cal Jernigan, a friend here in Phoenix, you know, he said it's the first time he's actually worshiped with Catholics and a Pentecostal at the same time. He said I don't know. I don't know what's going on here, but people are coming to the Lord that by the millions in, uh, in the Southern hemisphere and it's always kind of at leading edge is the, the miracle working power of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:Well, the biggest miracle is faith, isn't it, yes, that there is one who sent his son. The Father sent his son, and it always goes back to the work of the Son, doesn't it? And the proclamation that Jesus is Lord, that's the shortest, earliest creed in the early church.
Speaker 1:Jesus is Lord. You've got a lot of other lords. Let me tell you about the one who conquered our greatest enemies sin, death and the devil. His name is Jesus. That's always about the work of the Holy Spirit, but we're very suspicious of experience or things. I guess in the Western mind, because, I agree with you, I think it's more than Lutheran, I think it's the Western American knowledge-centered church. Right, we are in the brain science. We all know this. Now. We're doing a lot of work now on the emotion of joy. Joy is the emotional center that connects us first to God, Um, and then to to one another. Right, Then, and joy is found in the face. We are feeling things before we're thinking things.
Speaker 1:I'm hoping we've moved past the day where any kind of conversation about experience is immediately seen, as you said, maybe heretical or less than faithful. No one can say that, wow, I'm going to discount your experience. 3,000 were converted on that one day in Pentecost, that actually nothing really significant happened. They're like are you kidding me? Like the Holy Spirit fell upon all of us and it led us to do what Proclaim acclaim the promises and presence of God. God is really here. I love that point, Gary. That's what I really want at the end of the day, when you've gone through either a high church, whatever liturgical experience, or it's more modern worship, that in our singing, in our preaching, in our confessing there would be this radical experience.
Speaker 1:God is here for me. He loves me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead, go off on that, gary, I have this relatively simple. When you think, why do people come to church? This relatively simple. When you think, why do people come to church? I think essentially there are two reasons. They don't necessarily I don't know that they necessarily identify this, but they've been living here for a whole week and they want perspective. That's the word of God. They want perspective. And the other thing is they want to feel like they've been in the presence of God. And so that you know, this is a Lutheran and a Catholic tradition which I think is greatly underestimated in its power is when you know, after the Lord's table or the Eucharist, people say to each other may the peace of Christ be with you. Yeah, what is that? May the peace? That's a transcendent thing, the peace of God, that passes all understanding that it's a transcendent thing. And so people want to come to church. And when you know God's there, whatever you've heard, it's not just a mind experience, but it's become a part of you.
Speaker 2:There we go, and you know, to me that's one of the most powerful things in the service just to say to one another may the peace of Christ be with you. Because outside of that moment, it's madness. Jesus said to Martha Martha, martha, you're troubled and anxious about many things. And she didn't even have a cell phone, she wasn't on social media, she didn't have running water, okay, and and. But there's, there's something in us that we need to. And she said there's just one thing that's needful just come and sit out, sit by us and, you know, just be with me.
Speaker 1:Um, so yeah that's good, gary, um sat, gary. Satan is having a heyday today. Obviously, he doesn't win. Jesus has won. The cross proved it, the empty tomb proves it. His return will ultimately crush the serpent's head. He's the liar, he's the divider, he's the destroyer of anything. That's good, I think. He wants to bifurcate Christians. You know, he and he's. He's done a pretty good job of it. To say Christianity, following Jesus, is a one hour a week kind of check the box, kind of move on, be encouraged, receive some sort of I love what you say perspective. But then I'm going to you, just go back, you do, you man, you know and you get out there and your faith really has no ramifications. I think he's uh, he's lied to us and I think we're calling it.
Speaker 2:There's. No, there are no Christians on the freeway. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:It's me Get out the way.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. It's just to me, that's an image of life. We, just you know, we close the car door and Jesus is not in the car with us. In terms of the way we relate to other drivers. You know it's so easy to we're so absorbed, like Martha, so absorbed in the moment and the frustrations of the moment. You know the love chapter. Tim Paul says love is there are two words. Do you know what the first two words are?
Speaker 1:Love is Patient.
Speaker 2:Patient, kind, kind, kind words. And you know what the first two words are? Love is patient, patient, kind, kind, kind. When I read that, I think. I think I'm going to hell you got the grace of god.
Speaker 2:Praise me to god, but yeah how impatient are we but I mean, it's not just a description of how you should be. This is the person of Christ. He said learn of me, I'm meek and lowly of heart. He's just God. That's all he is. But you know, it says let your and I think it's also in Philippians. It says let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is here, he's in the car with you, but we are so bifurcated. That's the big word, Just the word sounds nasty.
Speaker 1:It's not good. It's not good. I want to live integrated with Christ and I think the Holy Spirit is the only one that does that. Just let's get personal, and we got a lot of leaders listening here and in your ministry and even to this day, what were some of the primary assaults of Satan? How did Satan kind of come at you, especially as a leader? I think we're going to have a lot of people leaders who will relate to your story, Gary, as a leader, I think we're going to have a lot of people, leaders, who will relate to your story, gary.
Speaker 2:Well, paul Jesus said if you want to follow me, you have to take up your cross, and basically that he's speaking figuratively your cross is you have to be willing to die.
Speaker 1:And our mutual friend Al Ells.
Speaker 2:one of his mottos was the first person to the cross wins. And Paul said life works in me, but I die daily. Death works in me, in life, in you, and I I've I've used the. You know the birth of a child and what a woman goes through to give life something in her changes. I mean her, the chemistry of her body and the shape of her body, and and uh and it, what, what she, and then what, all the sacrifices that a mother makes. You know, especially in the early years of a child's life, and you're giving, you're dying for someone who is receiving life and has absolutely no appreciation for what you're doing. And so the ministry is. You know this is the challenge. God's given you wonderful success. Tim may not talk about this, but he's got a great church and it's alive and they have a large Christian school and you know they've got young families coming and he's being used in a broader sense.
Speaker 2:But the more God uses you, you know, the more you have to deal with hubris. And like Henry, now a best-selling Catholic author, wrote about spirituality. He had who knows how many millions of books he sold and you know the story of his life. At the end of his life he said I can't deal with this public ministry and all the acclaim and he left his writing career and went to become a pastor at an institution, a home for severely disabled adults, severely disabled adults.
Speaker 2:And you know the, the idea of of the, the hubris. You know Jesus said it's easy for a camel to go through the eye of a needle and for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. And the rich, it was not just the wealth I read into that, it's a self-sufficiency, because the more successful you are, the more you trust in yourself. And you know to stay humble and just to let it go. That's another message I've been preaching in lots of places, just the sacred art of letting go. And you know you can only take it so far. But we, you know we're driven and Martha was driven. And Martha, like I said, she didn't have a nonprofit, she didn't have a business, she wasn't selling real estate, she didn't have any water. But she was troubled and she needed to sit next to Jesus. She needed to let go of the things that were controlling her.
Speaker 1:So you struggled. I think any pastor of you experienced some sort of success with hubris.
Speaker 2:And you become a target, of course, and people get angry and they leave the church and you take it personally and it's easier to be more influenced by one family that leaves the church than a thousand families who just think. It's easier to be more influenced by one family that leaves at the church than a thousand families who just think it's wonderful and and and that's. You know you personalizing all this and you know we had it. It's a long story, but I shared it with you before, tim, but when I was in my late thirties, there was there was just a confluence of, of pain and I planted a church and the church went. That church went against us and and I mean it was just, and I was young, I never experienced anything like that.
Speaker 2:But you, you have to be willing to. You have to be willing to die to what you, what you dream about, and and and you need to listen to other people. You just need other people when you're successful and you have thousands of people listening to you and you have somebody on your board that is listening to you but also hears you say other things. You have to pay attention to that. In the mouth of two or three witnesses, you look at somebody else. Am I really that way? Am I struggling with that? Yeah, it's hard to tell you, though, because you're such a big shot.
Speaker 1:Oh man, Gary, Praise God for his mercy and his grace.
Speaker 2:When I look back on my life, especially the, it was like my life was like. You know, especially the early part of my life, I was like Jacob, you know, he made a deal with God If you bless me, I'll come back here and build a church. But and then he, just he was a supplanter, you know, a deceiver. He just knew how to make money and everything went well for him. And then one night, you know, he was caught between his uncle Laban, who wanted to kill him, and his brother Esau, who was bitter from years earlier. And he wrestled with the angel of God. And you know, we get into these positions where God does not give us a way out, except into his presence. And then we say, come what may, what may, lord, you are in control. Because, um, you know, the only thing we have to offer is is jesus. And you know not our success, or you know our thoughts, just, it's just, we just had jesus to offer to people. And another story comes to mind Jesus, in the upper room, said to Peter tonight is not going to be a good night for you. Satan wants to have you to sift you like wheat. And then, peter, he says are you going to deny me three times. And then Jesus says this and I think this is overlooked. He says but I prayed for you that your faith won't fail. And then Jesus says after you've gone through this, strengthen the brothers.
Speaker 2:So Peter denies Jesus with cursing it's the worst night of his life. Sometimes I say it's the worst damn night of his life. I mean he was cursing and then now he repents. And how do you strengthen the brothers out of that? I mean there's one thing, how you can strengthen jesus prayed for me. God is on my side, even when I'm a jerk. You know, yeah, and god's on your side. And all he could talk about is jesus. Peter couldn't write a book. Five ways never to deny jesus. You know, go on christian television and you know. And then it becomes all about you. And Jesus said I prayed for you that your faith won't fail. He ever lives to make intercession for the saints Tim. He knows what you're going to do next week and you're not going to be happy about it, and but he's already praying for you. It's beautiful for you.
Speaker 1:It's so good, it's beautiful, and the Holy Spirit interceding for us groans too deep for words. We don't know what to pray, perfectly, perfectly. And we started this conversation on kind of the times and leading in these times. I'm just grateful, and I mean this sincerely, that you're my friend and that I'm lifted up by leaders like you who can empathize, sympathize. You've walked this road. You've seen some of the landmines.
Speaker 2:Been there, done that, got the ripped t-shirt.
Speaker 1:You know. But I'm strengthened because of Christ, the Spirit's work in community. To you I feel safer and I'm on a team here and the days I'm praying for the days of kind of and this is no disrespect to you and other megachurch pastors, but I'm praying for the days of like the one main sage on the stage kind of guy I get their strategic opportunities using technology, video venue, that whole thing. I just think it's kind of dangerous, especially in this day and age with the way personalities and messages can be propagated, you know, and God still works through it all. This is the wild thing about it. If that's like the role of your church, it's big, it's personality kind of driven, because God has kind of anointed one speaker. I think that's, that's great. But man we've got to be, we've got to be really, really careful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Hubris pride doesn't, because that's Satan's going to come at you pride, power, sex, money, like all those things he's going to attack leaders like that.
Speaker 2:So you know his Front page stories about the most successful Christian leaders in the world that had mostly, I think, because they they maybe had people speaking into their life, but they're above that.
Speaker 1:They're above it.
Speaker 2:They're above that.
Speaker 1:I'm always below. I'm obviously below Christ. Very practically I'm below our board. I'm below my wife. I come underneath her. There's always people that you're not a big deal, bro, you're right, or you're doing sweet, whatever, you're just a guy deal, bro, like you, you're right, you know you're right, you're doing whatever Like, you're just. You're just a guy who's going to die. They got the privilege of telling people about the one who defeated death.
Speaker 2:His name is Jesus. So yesterday I was sharing in a Bible class at a Nazarene church and yeah, and I said, you know, I I'm not sharing all of this because I mastered it. I'm sharing it because I'm a herald. I'm sharing it because God has given me a mouth to proclaim his word, and that doesn't necessarily make me more spiritual than any of you or all of you. I'm just here, paul, an apostle according to the will of God. I mean, we're all of you. I'm just here. I'm Paul, an apostle according to the will of God. Tim, a pastor, and a pastor of a beautiful church according to the will of God. You know, yeah, and we have to maintain that.
Speaker 1:And it's hard.
Speaker 2:It really is hard. Amen, because you know to be quote successful. You have a gift actually to do this stuff. You know God gifted me to lead a large church, and so the more gifted you are, the more dangerous you are.
Speaker 1:It's like God, you did this to me. So, yeah, we're at war here. My will versus yours. Your will be done versus yours, uh, your will be done. Please, lord Jesus. Your will be done in and through me. Use me, but, man um, protect me, comfort me, sustain me and when I sin, which I will, uh, lead me to repentance, lead me to confess readily my desperate need for the forgiveness flowing from the cross of Jesus lead me to confess readily my desperate need for the forgiveness flowing from the cross of Jesus.
Speaker 1:So this has been great, gary, I'm late for a staff meeting, but they're doing it. They're doing it. It's a campus meeting, I don't need it. I get to just pop in. But people want to connect with you, brother. How can they do so?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, I have a website, GaryKinnemancom site. Garykinnemancom. That's Kinneman, that's.
Speaker 1:K-I-N-N-A-M-A-N.
Speaker 2:I say it's like kill a man only with N's in a man, garykinnemancom, and people can get in touch with me through my email, which is Gary at GaryKinnemancom. I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it. This is the American Reformation podcast. I pray this conversation pointed you to Jesus, was an experience with the Holy Spirit. I hope it encouraged you as an everyday follower of Jesus. Be in Christian community, dig into the Word of God and, for those of us that get the privilege of leading in the church, lead with humility and radical dependence upon the Holy Spirit, who points us to Jesus, the lover of our souls. Gary, thanks so much. Love you, buddy, my pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thanks for this time.
Speaker 1:All right, peace, peace.