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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
From Stress to Support: Reimagining Church Leadership with Kirk Triplett
Have you ever wondered how to navigate the pressures of pastoral ministry without losing your sense of self? Join us on this enlightening episode of the American Reformation Podcast as we chat with Kirk Triplett, the voice behind the Pastor Positive Mental Health podcast. Kirk takes us through his transformative journey with Calvary Chapel, addressing the pitfalls of performance-based Christianity and the urgent need for authentic connections within the American Christian Church. Discover how recognizing your unique value can foster unity and health within your church community.
As we unpack the mental health struggles faced by pastors, Kirk provides critical insights into the undue burdens placed on church leaders. We critique the "Moses model" of church leadership and explore the benefits of a more collaborative approach to ministry. Drawing from extensive doctoral research, Kirk shares a framework for congregations to support their pastors' well-being, highlighting the necessity of continuing education and active engagement from church members.
Lastly, we delve into the emotional and spiritual toll of pastoral life, often hidden behind a cheerful Sunday sermon. Kirk sheds light on the growing awareness of mental health issues within church leadership, stressing the importance of Christ-centered community and mutual support. From practical steps for maintaining pastoral well-being to encouraging generational shifts in approaching mental health, this episode is a must-listen for anyone passionate about fostering a healthier, more united church. Don't miss Kirk's inspiring insights and the hope they bring for a brighter future in ministry.
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray. The joy of Jesus is your strength, wherever you're taking this in. We pray that love rests in your heart and that a compelling why for the mission of God, you, whether you're a pastor, leader, business leader, wherever you are, you're called to be a part of bringing love and light, the hope of the crucified and risen Jesus, into the world by the power of the Holy Spirit. So today I get to hang out with a brother I just met. We've run in many of the same circles. Kirk Triplett is with us today.
Speaker 1:Reverend Doctor, he is the host of the Pastor Positive Mental Health podcast. I think I'm going to be joining you here in a little bit, kirk. That will be super fun. Thanks for returning the favor to me, though. He authored a book called Affirmed Building the Positive Mental Health of your Pastor, and we're going to get into a lot of mental health. I got a number of guests right now, kirk. I mean that's such a hot topic for us right now. So you're right. You're right at the crosshairs of a lot of what Satan is seeking to do, which is remove health, love, joy, peace, connection, deep relationship, attachment one to another today in the local church, and so I'm excited for this conversation. But our standard opening question, kirk, is you look at the broad landscape and you can tell a little bit of your story to your time in Calvary Chapel. How are you praying for reformation in the American Christian Church, kirk? Thanks for hanging out man. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:Well, thanks so much for having me. It is an honor and I'm humbled to be part of just what God's doing and what you're doing. I'm excited. I mean we've crossed paths at best practices and not really met each other, but challenging it's overwhelming when I look at it, and I will give a little bit of background with Calvary Chapel Again.
Speaker 2:I always have to say this Calvary Chapel gave me a love for God's Word and so you know I really, really appreciate their time in my life. But what I found in Calvary Chapel was some of the challenges with what I call performance-based Christianity, which means your identity is determined by how much you're doing and how involved you are with the church, and I don't think it was ever necessarily intentional, but it became this kind of theme. I was in a church in the Southwest, in Belen, New Mexico, south of Albuquerque, that was about 2,000 people, and that's a different animal when you have that many people.
Speaker 2:But before we get into some of that I think that the thing that I'm noticing with the church and I hate to be so negative, and I think that's something that you're trying to do is how can we be positive but recognize?
Speaker 1:some of the challenges of the church.
Speaker 2:I feel like the church is extremely distracted right now um, which causes, um, what I would say disconnection, um, and and then disillusionment. So you're kind of I'm kind of moving to a book that I have in my brain right now that I'm going to be working on, and it causes the destruction of the church and what.
Speaker 1:I mean by distraction.
Speaker 2:I'm praying that people aren't distracted, that they would say you know, there's great things in this world.
Speaker 1:It's great to have kids.
Speaker 2:It's great that they're involved in sports, it's great that we have all these activities. You know, here we are in Southeast Idaho and it's a gateway to all kinds of recreation and whatnot, and I find that people are distracted by those things, and so I'm praying that people would actually recognize that the most important thing in this life is Jesus Christ and that they wouldn't be distracted by the things of this world. And we know this has been a problem since the inception of the church, even before the church. You look at the minor prophets. I mean, it's not anything new, but I feel like, especially since COVID and especially with technology, I just find that it is really difficult for people to see the value of connecting not only with Christ continually but with his body continually, and so I'm praying for that, and I'm praying that they would understand their role which is part of what I do is their role in the health of the church.
Speaker 2:And so you know, we as you know many people come to church and they are consumers and not necessarily participants. And and I like to say, how can you? Everybody has value. God has placed everyone in the church and he has something for them to do, and not that it's about vain repetition or doing certain things, but it's like he's gifted you specifically. So how can I help you find that? So I'm praying that people would say man, I have value to the church, I'm a valuable part of this church. How can I help others and build one another up in love?
Speaker 1:Hey, I love that. As I hear you talking about distraction, I think of communication and how a lot of the distraction today is keeping us, to use your words, consuming rather than communicating. And I think this is the next generation I'm just finishing up the Anxious Generation. Have you taken a look at that book?
Speaker 2:I haven't read it, but I've looked at it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean just the rise in the mental health crisis, especially in Gen Z and Alpha 2.
Speaker 1:And how does a church like create space for training and equipping people to have everyday conversations around the goodness and grace of God and then really kind of put on no matter what my vocation is this is what I love about Lutheran theology no matter what my vocation, age, stage of life is, I'm called to be an ambassador of reconciliation, a communicator of love and joy and peace, pointing people to Jesus as the author of everything that is good.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, I mean anything more to say to the connection and communication piece? I don't know that we're communicating deeply now and I don't think it's hard. I think the Holy Spirit is like right there knocking on the door of our hearts saying, hey, invite me in, don't worry about what you're going to say, like, just get up, we're watching the Olympics, right, get up to that diving board. It's not going to be you doing that perfect triple Sal cow I don't think that's what they do anyway but it's going to be me like communicating in and through you. Anything more to say about how distraction kind of numbs communication depth, depth in communication.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's interesting is that we are a generation that has built. We I mean in the last, you know, 60 to 80 years, built homes right next to each other but don't know our neighbors. And then we've been convinced, I think, that the value of relationship is really not that important, is really not that important. And yet I think what you know and one of these days we're not going to talk about COVID, so I'm really excited about that but one thing that COVID did prove is that isolation is not good and we actually crave and need the community of people and the connection of people.
Speaker 2:The challenge is, we've been lied to and thought that we can have that connection virtually and though that I mean like I have grandkids, young grandkids, in Texas and then in California, and I love FaceTiming with them, but it's not the same. That's right. You know, I think the church having you know services online is valuable, but it's really not giving people what they need. And so I've looked at people streaming the church. Now that's an advertisement piece for the church, it's an outreach. I mean, hey, take a look at who we are. But if you really want to experience what God intended, you've got to be together, really want to experience what God intended, you've got to be together. So the enemy has done a good job of convincing people that I have connection without really connecting, and so it's a false thing. Social media I don't care what people eat, to be honest with you, but they seem to want to let me know all the time. But that, but that's not real connection.
Speaker 2:You know, it's just nothing like face to face. It's hard to to have a cigar and sit with your kids and and really enjoy face to face time and just hanging out with them over the computer so Well yeah, I mean, there's nothing, nothing like face to face.
Speaker 1:Jesus stepped in touch and see right. Spirit doesn't have. And the face actually? This is brain science. The face knows the difference between a face and a screen and a face in real time, face to face. And so, yeah, we need deeper connection today.
Speaker 1:Well, let's get into your work on pastoral mental health and the role of the congregation in caring for pastors. Let me set it up this way. I mean, being a pastor, being a leader in the church, has probably never been more difficult, and I could tongue in cheek that a little bit. Every time has hard times because of the fall, but because of technology, pastors have become more of a personality and people can kind of develop caricatures of who we really are and then depth of relationship, who can I really trust face to face? It's never been more necessary for me and all pastors to have a prayer team, whether it's elders, others that you're meeting with consistently, a father, mother, confessor that you're confessing your struggles to, who see you just as Tim, just as Kirk, and then locking arms.
Speaker 1:It's never been more important, I think, for pastors to say I need the entire body of Christ. We are going to be dysfunctional If this whole thing, you know, rises and falls on me and my presence, my ministry, man, we are going to be less than effective. And so I think it's a great time for repentance, for pastors to just humbly ask for help, and I think mental health comes knowing and just speaking for Tim right now. Mental health comes knowing that this whole thing doesn't rise and fall on me. When it rises and falls on Christ, him crucified, the work of the Holy Spirit through the body of Christ, and I'm one small piece, I'm a part of it, but I'm a small piece of God's big plan through our congregation. So that's kind of the setup for you talking about your Pastor Don character in your book. And yeah, let's get into it, buddy, this is gonna be fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know, when I was with Calvary Chapel I was assistant pastor at a large church that's the second church I served at and what I saw in the model anyway of I would what's called the Moses model. I know Calvary Chapel has adopted a second model, kind of caused some some split in the church and so there's two Calvary Chapel non denomination denominations. Anyway, we don't need to talk about that. I mean they are. You know, if you look at what a denomination is, they are centered around an idea of distinctives and so to be a Calvary Chapel, you have to agree to these distinctives. So to me that's a denomination Anyway.
Speaker 2:But what I saw was good friends of mine and pastors who were the solo pastor using this Moses model, and that was the idea just in a nutshell, that they were the anointed one that God called to that church and everything, as you just mentioned again, would rise and fall upon them.
Speaker 2:And so I saw this pressure and then the challenge too, and this is just a side note and I won't be disparaging, but when you get a bunch of guys who were ex-druggies and ex-hippies and now you're putting them into leadership roles, sometimes there's some challenges that happen with that. Sometimes there's some great things, but there can's some challenges that happen with that. Sometimes there's some great things, but there can be some challenges, and they were overall very negative about continuing education. And so, in fact, when I went back to school, my senior pastor questioned me about it. He goes why are you doing that? And I said, well, I really think I need to because what's happening here, and I get a friend of mine that, um, you know, uh, I found, here's what I found, um, that they're the pressure of the ministry and making every decision be their decision. I mean, you know, you have guys, you have a church of 2000 and a pastor proofreading the bulletin because he feels that much need to control what happens.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I get that we care for the church and I get that we want to preserve her and we want to help her. But I just saw the weight start to crumble. These guys, and many of them would have moral failings, and I think unintentionally that was their way of escape. I don't think they cognitively said, ok, if I, if I, morally fail, I can at least get out of this pressure. I just think it was what happened. And so I saw this and I said man, this is not good. And so I remember Jethro right, well, I don't remember him, I was up there but he came to Moses and said he said, what you're doing is not good. And so that's what I saw. And so I really felt this desire in my heart to go back to school. And so that's what I saw. And so I really felt this desire in my heart to go back to school, to go to get my doctorate and help the church and organizational leadership and really look at it. And some surprising things came out of that. To be honest with you, one of the things that I was doing, and when we all go get our doctorates, whether you realize it or not, there's an agenda that drives you. You know you're not supposed to, but there is this bias and this agenda that drives you and you need that. And my bias was I need to tell church members that they need to step up and quit consuming and actually participate and help their pastors. I like that Well.
Speaker 2:What's interesting as we get into Pastor Don is as I interviewed pastors, what's interesting as we get into Pastor Don is as I interviewed pastors, and so just the nuts and bolts of it was I was interviewing them to see how the actions of church members influence their positive mental health. And so there's six components of positive mental health personal satisfaction, pro-social attitude, self-control, autonomy, problem solving and interpersonal relationship skills. Dr Looch Knute, if you want to look it up 1999, made this scale, so that's kind of what I derived it from. Dr Presho Bell from Duke Clergy Health Initiative and Dr Chris Adams from Biola were very instrumental in directing me towards positive mental health. They are both leaders in our country for pastor mental health, and so Duke Clergy Health Initiative does a lot of great work In fact I interviewed her on my podcast and Chris Adams Anyway, but they're really good work on what they do.
Speaker 2:And so when I interviewed pastors, an interesting thing happened is that I had one pastor that I was interviewing who, at the end of our hour and a half conversation, as we're recounting how people have actually built their satisfaction, giving them optimism, and how people have made them want to actually reach out and be social with others and how people make them feel like they are autonomous and can make decisions, and one pastor told me he goes. You know, kirk, before we started this, he goes. I was about ready to quit because I had two elders leave the board. It was during COVID that I did all these interviews. He goes. It was a really tough time. He goes, but after doing this he goes.
Speaker 1:I feel good and refreshed and I'm ready to take this on.
Speaker 2:So I started watching the countenance of these pastors as I would interview them and just see a lightness and a refreshment happen, as they're really recognizing that not every part of ministry is negative and not everyone's out to get them. And so I took all that, finished up the doctorate, and I said, man, you know what am I going to do with this? I took all that, finished up the doctorate, and I said, man, you know what am I going to do with this? And I got within three weeks after my doctorate I was asked to present at South Idaho Pastors Conference. So I did six sessions on that. I had the blessing of going to the Southern District All Workers Conference and presented, you know, five sessions to them. I've been at best practices a couple of times and done a local pastor conference here and so. But what I did was I looked at this. I said, well, what?
Speaker 2:if you created a character, and so I made this fictitious character, pastor Don, and I took all these guys, all these men's experiences, and he's sitting in his office and he's ready to quit the ministry. He's been in the ministry over 20 years but he is just down and discouraged. And he's sitting in his office and he's ready to quit the ministry. He's been in the ministry over 20 years but he is just down and discouraged and he's sitting there and then the Holy Spirit starts reminding him of these instances. And those things that he remembered were actually examples that I took from those pastors that I interviewed, from those pastors that I interviewed. And what's great is, when you really drill it down, it's not complicated. I find pastors to be very I am one, so I can say this but very simple. I don't think it's hard to encourage us, but I think it takes intentionality to encourage us, but I think it takes intentionality. And so the little book that I wrote is really for church members and leaders in the church to say what are some simple things that I can do? How can I affirm my pastor? How can I give them personal satisfaction? Some of that is engagement. The little thing about engagement is is you know you actually, you actually drag your kids to church consistently. You know that's a big deal to a pastor when you see a family coming and they, they make it a priority, or someone's there for several months or, like man, I want to serve, is there something I can do? You know I'll pass out bulletins, I'll pick up trash, you know, or whatever, and that's just a little bit of engagement. And then you know, how do you know your pastor? You know that's a lot of things, as we can probably get into it a little bit more as we look at the mental health aspect of it.
Speaker 2:But pastors often feel isolated and alone because church members, I think, are hesitant to go. Man, what do you like to do? Do we have anything in common and how can we do that together? And then there's conflict.
Speaker 2:Self-control has to deal with how one regulates their emotions, and so out of that, just on a side note, out of that, the themes that arose from my interviews were their stress relief and conflict relief. And then the interesting thing that I thought was amazing when I was talking about self-control and these stress factors and these conflict relief factors, is that encouragement rose to the top when there was a church member that was reasonable, or someone that came alongside the pastor and said that was a rough transaction. We want to know that we're here for you. Let's work this out Almost every time when a pastor would mention something like that, they would use this word and that was very encouraging. And it's interesting to me because we look at stressful situations and conflict within the church and I think the furthest thing from our mind is encouragement coming out of it. But the reality- is is.
Speaker 2:Those are those moments where I think it's easier for pastors to recognize wow, that really was a beneficial to me that somebody came and did that. And so anyway, we can talk.
Speaker 2:I can go on and on about that, but I don't want to read my whole book to you but, but that's kind of where this pastor dawn came from, and I just really love trying to encourage pastors and when I do the seminars for them and and if you want to reach out to me, which we'll get to at the end, I'll give you the tool. If the tool works better, if you've gone through some of my sessions because you can go through it and and it's just an assessment, you can where's my positive mental health at? Well, you know, and it's reflecting and we'll talk about that. You have about uh, some, some care for uh pastor. We'll talk about it, hey.
Speaker 1:Kirk, this is awesome. Um, and just speaking as a pastor, we're recording this on a Monday. Yesterday was a Sunday. I got to preach and it was actually my birthday, so that was cool. And walking into the and it happens every seven some years, right.
Speaker 1:It happens to be on a Sunday, but like the little thing of walking in and the choir is rehearsing at 7 o'clock getting ready for a 730 service, and they immediately stopped and sang happy birthday. And I'm not like a huge well, I'm a words guy for sure but it was just like wow, that was, I didn't expect, didn't expect that. And then there were a number of different conversations just throughout the day, finished with a voters meeting. That went really really great after our four services and just the kindness of God's people, the care, and I love that you said, hey, showing up for worship, like it's not, it's not just that, oh, we want our churches to be full, like pastors got into this because they really think the word of God could change people's lives, right, and then the forgiveness of sins through the sacrament is like a really, really big, big deal.
Speaker 1:So for families to take that seriously, for pastors to have an army of people who are starting to serve right alongside them, and then I'd add a third one, and this is our simple discipleship right Worship, small group serve. Like that. You're connected to other people. That the biggest struggle for me and again, you mentioned congregations, about 2000,. That's that's Christ Greenfield where I get to serve and there's a number of different pastors. You know hundreds of leaders serving and we're trying to stay connected to God's people.
Speaker 1:But the biggest gut punch is like when someone that I was close to and I only have the capacity really to know deeply about a hundred people right, that's why church size caps out at about a hundred Someone who was like just maybe on the outside of that 100 that I don't mentally notice, hey, it's been a couple months. Then they reach out and, man, I just walked through a divorce, or man, something just happened with my kids, or man, somebody treated me poorly and you didn't notice, pastor, it's like a gut punch. Man, I really take that, take that seriously. Well, they weren't, they weren't in a small group, they weren't. They like they excluded themselves from that.
Speaker 1:So it was like ah, it's so, but we we regardless of the size of the congregation I mean pastors are in this because we love Jesus, we love people, we want people to know the love of Jesus. It's as simple. It's as simple as that. And when you're encouraged by people who say you know what that's happening here, not just from you, but through you and the leaders that you're raising up, I see Jesus here. Anything more to say to that Kirk?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think one thing. So when I was in Calvary Chapel, I was in a church of 2000. And now I'm in the smaller church which we can talk about if you want. I love the LCMS doctrine. That's really what it was the sacraments.
Speaker 2:It was sacraments and end times that drew me to LCMS theology, In fact just on a side note, I remember sitting there playing some music as the pastor is giving the words of institution and I'm like, why are we doing this If all we're doing is giving a nod to Jesus and saying thanks? And that was kind of the Holy Spirit going hey, I want you to study this a little bit more. And then, and then with baptism, it's like man, I would just watch as people are getting baptized, like God's doing something here. This is this is not me saying I'm taking my next step, I'm going to be serious about my relationship with Christ.
Speaker 2:Now there was something, and so I just started studying it and then I would on a side note, I was so you know, we would do in Calvary Chapel, we would do, you know, new Year's Eve services and have a prophecy update, and I sat through like 17 of those, and I remember I think it was the 16th one sitting there listening, and I'm like man, this is the same as last year. And then this came to me clearly. I said we are spending so much time looking for the Antichrist that we're missing the real Christ, and so you know. So that was my journey, and so I came to this church my first Sunday there were 19 people here and I'm going to speak to this church. My first Sunday, there were 19 people here and I'm going to speak to this here and now.
Speaker 2:You know if everyone would, as one friend of mine says, if everyone would screw up and show up, we'd have, you know, about 100. And we wouldn't know what to do with everybody, right? But you know yesterday we had 68. We baptized three people. Had a meeting, like you, to paint the church, and it was unanimous, which was a big thing. And then a gal told me at our study last night she goes oh, I want to be baptized too. So this will be nine baptisms in eight weeks, you know so you're just going to go, what's?
Speaker 2:God doing and it's exciting. But the challenge is, as we grow, that capacity that you're talking about is I can't get to know everybody the way I would like to, and some of it is okay. You have everyone who sneaks in the back, even in a small church.
Speaker 2:You see them at the beginning of service, come in and they leave quickly and you can't you know you try to run with your robe as fast as you can down the aisle, but the reality is, is what you mentioned is really important? First of all, the two things you mentioned what we do as pastors we consider a sacred calling and we lead with our heart. And that's a challenge with pastors, because many pastors have gotten burned. And I want to encourage pastors just because your heart has been stepped on, don't quit leading with your heart. God is the keeper of your heart. He's taking care of you, and so don't let that be cause for withdrawing. Secondly, it's a sacred calling and we are relational and we want to know people.
Speaker 2:But that person who says, hey, I was going through a divorce and you didn't even notice, and you're like, yeah, but you weren't involved in this, but yet it was still a gut pudge. The problem is with that is that there's an expectation that every person has for their pastors, and so I call it unrealistic expectations, I would say ambiguous expectations, and the reality is is that we have these expectations on our pastors as church members and we don't really realize they're there until they don't meet those expectations. And then we're emotional. Right, I was going through this divorce and you didn't say anything. I'm just using your example and they, because they're in the middle of that raw emotion, they can't pause and go.
Speaker 2:Well, was this a realistic expectation for my pastor to actually know? Because nobody knew, and like I've had pastors talk to me who people were in the hospital and then they got home and then they were upset at the pastor who never came and saw them because nobody told them that they were in the hospital, and so this is an unfair expectation, right, and it's unrealistic. But when you're emotional as a church member and you're feeling that hurt and that almost betrayal or whatnot, you can't pause and think and go. Wait a second. This actually wasn't a realistic expectation. It would have been nice. But what did I do to create relationship with the pastor that he would know what's going on with me? So it is hard. But pastors, to your point, gut punch, right, it hurts and there's some other challenges there which we can talk about in a minute let's get into what is on your sheet.
Speaker 1:question number four Kirk. We'll come back to the other one. But what would surprise, though, the average? Because I think we want to build your book is trying to build kind of empathy for the call of leading in the church, right? What would surprise the average church member about what their pastor does and or emotionally carries in his ministry?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so years ago I kind of just was talking to another pastor about you know, people coming into your office. I'm like, yeah, they just kind of spiritually and emotionally vomit all over you and then you and then they leave feeling better because you know, when you're sick and you puke, you feel a little better for a while. Right, it's like awesome, that's great. And they leave but yet you're covered in it and so you go home and often what that does in the life of a pastor is it creates a sense of failure to what you mentioned. Even when church members just seem to go through the motions and they're just there and you don't see that growth. You know that you can feel like a failure as a pastor. When they don't listen to you, you feel like a failure as a pastor or they struggle, right, you know.
Speaker 2:I look at the Apostle John and what does he call the people in his letters in the first, second, third John? What does he call the people in this letters in the first, second, third John? He calls them little children. All the time he loved them and he wanted to be with them and he wanted to care for them and he wanted to protect them. And so when they don't seem protected or they don't seem to thrive or they struggle.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't like it when my kids struggled when I was raising them, you know, and so I felt like a failure because I couldn't protect them from that. And we take everything personally, and so I think that a lot of times church members think that pastors just show up on Sunday mornings and they're always happy and they're always positive and they're in a great mood, they're preaching about Jesus, and then that's how they are all the time. And so I think that some of the challenges that we have is that people just don't understand that we carry words, all of the burdens of the church and it goes to a greater extent than what I think they see on a Sunday morning, because they don't deal with all of those things that we deal with.
Speaker 1:No, that's good. So let's talk about mental health, talk about how are we thriving. I know COVID did a number to it. If you've got any kind of good news in terms of current trends in pastoral mental health, share that first. But yeah, let's dig into a little bit of data.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's some good trends and I would say just there's no hard data yet on these trends. It's just me being in the field a little bit watching observation, because I know Barn is always working on stuff and I know that we'll see some stuff coming up. But you need some historical data. You got to have time to make it a balanced study. But I think what we're seeing is awareness. I think again, there was always already this awareness and I get all my generations mixed up. But the younger kids, the 20-somethings there's an awareness of mental health and there was before COVID that hey, I'm not all that, I need help. In fact it's interesting Someone in their 20s has no problem telling you that they went to a therapist or a counselor this week and it's just like part of their lives, and so I'm really excited about that, that there's awareness coming on. I mean, I'm proud of our denomination, our synod, on our convention last year.
Speaker 2:One of the resolutions was about mental health for pastors and church workers and how we need to be more proactive. So at least it's on the radar. Let's just put it that way. Also, I think the recognition that mental and here's the thing Okay, 20 years ago, in order to be mentally healthy. The World Health Organization said that you had to be free of stress, anxiety or depression, and they would say 20 years ago and really about 12 years ago is when it started to shift. But they would say that you can't have both positive mental health and negative mental health at the same time. Well, studies show actually you do have them at the same time, and building your positive mental health combats the negative mental health, and so I think there's just greater awareness, recognition of it. I think there's also what I'm seeing which is great is a lot more resources becoming available and people willing to reach this, but, it's true, is the age gap.
Speaker 2:So I told you that I presented to the Southern District and it was about 95 pastors and church workers, mostly pastors of all ages, and you could just see I wore my collar because I'm like, hey, I think some guys won't listen to me if I don't, so let me be respectful. And so I did to present and actually I found out from the president that was a good call and so thank the Lord for that. But you could tell that there's certain guys of a certain age and I would say 55 or older. They really resist this whole idea and some of the challenges.
Speaker 2:My presentation is front loaded with some clinical terms. You know I go through burnout, I go through what positive mental health is, and so you can just see, and some of them have been in ministry for so long and they have felt isolated for so long and they have just put their head down and looked forward and just grunted through it and then you see guys, I mean I'm not that young, I'll be 53 on Friday, so happy birthday to both of us, august is the best month to be born.
Speaker 2:All the good looking guys are born in August, anyway. And so we look at that, and guys my age and I'd say, you know, 35 to 60. They want to embrace it, but there's still some wait, a second, some struggle. Seminaries have failed, and so I'm hoping seminaries are going to include this a little bit more. And then you see, the younger guys eat it up. I love this. This is so good, I need this, and so I think it's some good news. I think there's a trend. Of course, not as fast as maybe you or I want. I would love to see every district have a guy like me on their call so that they could say, hey, we're going to do these things at every single conference we have, we're going to send these guys and they're going to have that piece. That would be my heart, but I think we'll get there. I think we're going to get there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fascinating. Do you have any kind of hypothesis on why guys older than 55 are really struggling with this? Is it kind of like the and maybe there are some parallels, if you've listened to me at all that talk about the residential seminary kind of being the gold standard? Maybe it's the kind of like thinking that well, this worked for me. We didn't prioritize any of this. This is soft. I did seminary education. I just gritted my teeth and kind of grinded through the isolation. This is just a part of picking up your cross and following after Jesus. It worked for me. What's wrong with you guys? Is that a fair caricature of those over 55? Maybe a little uncharitable, but yeah go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, I think you're onto something, but I think there's another side to it. I think there's the other side to it is like I wish I would have known that this before. And they're hiding that Um, because I think that there's some deep hurts um that these that these guys carry Um. And so I think the hypothesis is this is, and I will say that that the denomination I came out of before LCMS really, really was anti-psychology. And you know what's great is when my interview with Dr Chris Adams, who is a psychologist at Biola he heads Rosemead Psychology Department there does a lot with flourishing in ministry is what it's called there. And I said what do you say to people? He goes. Well, not all psychology is good. He goes, I agree with that he goes not all doctors are great either.
Speaker 2:He goes. You need to really be careful and watchful, but I always look at it as we have no problem I get a broken leg.
Speaker 1:I'm going to the ER. I need you know.
Speaker 2:I've had like several surgeries on joints because I haven't been kind to my body, and it's like I need those doctors who know what they're doing to care for me and I need to trust them. And I think the same happens with our mental state. We are fragile, broken creatures, yes, Redeemed by Christ. And so those older people would say, well, Christ is enough. Because a lot of what I do is say, how do we look at what church members are doing? And they say things well, I don't need to look at church members and I'm like well, but Paul talked about, you know, Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus, and one that I can't say. That begins with one you know, and how he says they refreshed my spirit. And he goes and I look at you and what you're doing and I'm encouraged and I'm like why can't we see that God's put us together for that? And so I think, I think there's, there's. That is my hypothesis the second hypothesis.
Speaker 2:Hypothesis is they've had nowhere to churn for the hurts that have happened to them in the church, and so they have felt siloed for so many years that they just can't think outside of it. And they and they play the martyr on unintentionally. But this is just who I am and you know, christ has to be enough. And if they can voice that to me, I can. I can walk them through that and say, yeah, christ is enough. But Christ has given you, just like he's given you to the church, he's given the church to you.
Speaker 1:And so yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean, I think it's just, it's been ministry's been hard, this topic has been abused. I'd say. You know, mental health is a hot topic today. It's a phrase that can be interpreted so many different ways, and it can also be used too often as a um, a crutch for bad behavior, Uh, and so I think the older guys look at that and go well, I don't want to, you know, because people just now, that's their identity and they label themselves and so they don't try to be better, Um, and so I think that there's there's that tension that goes on there Anyway.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that answers your question. Oh, it's really good. Three c's I. I love alliteration. Let's keep it simple simple guys. So christ at the center. Christ moves us into community and then christ moves us into a confessing and absolving relationship one to another.
Speaker 1:and so if, whatever stage you're at, pastor, pastor, if you can say yes, it's all about Christ, holy Spirit, in and through me. He's embedded me with not just a congregation but fellow pastors who can care, peers, those that mentor, but also just peers, those that can kind of empathize with it.
Speaker 1:You know I have an accountability partner, zach Zender, red Letter Challenge dude out of King of Kings, right, he and I talk weekly, every other week, and it's just like, well, here's the stuff, family ministry, you got to have that. I don't think a lot of pastors have that. By the way, that's a beautiful place. And then if there's sin that needs to be confessed, you know whether it's personal or it's just like it's a thought that I had, that just is not helpful for me as I look to connect, maybe with younger generations and connect and preach to the growing mental health crisis today, I'll confess it. And we always receive the forgiveness of Jesus. And then, hey, old men will dream new dreams, right, and there's never in the economy of Christ, in the kingdom of Jesus, there's never this set.
Speaker 1:You know I am the way I am. I'm constantly being changed, right, it's the metanoia, a mindset above where Christ is. And so pastors of all ages can say you know, I used to believe this. How powerful is this for a young leader? Right, you know, I used to think this is true and now I've come by the Spirit's power connected to the Word, connected to just how the world has changed. You know I was closed. I was closed and I confess that and I'm learning new things. How cool is it for like a younger leader to like draw near to a man like that that confesses like that. Anything more to say to that Kirk.
Speaker 2:No, and I think for young pastors that's really important that they see that. And I mean, you know, the more I know, the less I know.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's the reality. I sit there and I go, man.
Speaker 2:There's so much more to the I'm going to use some weird terms, that's okay, but to the human experience and this journey that we're on. I mean things that I cared about when I was younger. I'm like not that big of a deal, that's right. I have one pastor who said someone was asking him how come all of his early messages aren't available to listen. And he goes. I said some things back then?
Speaker 1:I don't think.
Speaker 2:I agree with anymore and I'm like, oh, that was wise. But young pastors in fact, if you look at the rate of young pastors quitting is actually higher than older pastors, and the rate within the first five years of men leaving the ministry is astounding, and it's changing a little bit. So I don't want to give a fixed number on it, but there's a trend that's surprising and the reason is because they can go. I mean, if you're in your mid-20s, late-20s, you're like I got plenty of time to redefine myself, I can do something else. You have these old guys who are stuck right. I mean, I know a pastor who's been in ministry for 23 years. He's like I really don't want to do this anymore. He goes, but who looks at a job resume and sees 23 years in one place as a pastor in the world and values that he goes. So I'm stuck. And so now you have a pastor who's ineffective. But if you have a pastor like you mentioned who's and and you know, I love hanging out with younger guys and I'm not very mature, that's just the reality of it.
Speaker 2:I was raised by a man who was an awesome man. Thank the Lord he's still alive but he was a middle school vice principal and so my whole life. Everything that middle schoolers do cracks me up. So I find certain things funny that a lot of people are like you're still a kid. I'm like, yes, I am, and so, but that excitement as a kid had to learn and discover things. You know, until I take my last breath. There's stuff I'm learning.
Speaker 2:And I think that when you relay that to other pastors, when you have circuit meetings or whatever, or even to your congregation hey man, I just discovered this today or I even call it out when people, you know, when younger people I had to be corrected on what gaslighting was, you know, because I'm like, well, okay, and so they're like, no, this is what it is. I'm like, oh, okay. I said I still think my definition is better, but that's fine. Okay, I said I still think my definition is better, but that's fine. But but you know learning, you know what they're doing and and, um, you know, I don't have a Snapchat but I know what it is.
Speaker 1:There you go, but that's right, that's right. I, uh, I, I dropped. Yesterday I was playing a game with my, my kids and I was getting on a roll and I was like dad's beginning to cook right now and all three of them, they're all in high school. They're like what did you just say? I heard like Russ, he's a quarterback, Russ is cooking, right. So I'm like I think the kids say cook today. All that to say, we're constantly learning and Jesus is at the center of it. Let's close coming down the homestretch here on Jesus. Very good place to close.
Speaker 2:How did?
Speaker 1:he care for the mental health of his disciples, and you can even like merge some of those kinds of best practices for pastors who care for their own mental health. So let's talk about Jesus and how he cared for his disciples holistically.
Speaker 2:So I think the first thing was his presence. You know, when you look at his relationship with disciples, even, I think, when he looks at Peter and says, get behind me, satan, I think there was still this level of trust and care that they had with him just by being there, which indicates a couple of things. It indicates, obviously, his grace, his patience for them, but also his love of accepting them where they were. You know, I think sometimes we feel like we have to be a certain way for Jesus to accept us, or to be happy with us, or to even want to hang out with us. I find Jesus actually liking His disciples. You know we love that, christ loves, I love that. But for me, about a few years ago I heard this that God, that Jesus actually likes you.
Speaker 1:He doesn't just love you.
Speaker 2:He actually likes you and I think we see that because he hung out, he laughed, he went to weddings, he spent time with the disciples and just because he went away to pray wasn't because he was tired of them, and I think that we can get into this mindset that Jesus just came there to teach them. And, yeah, he taught a lot and I'm sure they learned a lot just by hanging out with him, which is real discipleship.
Speaker 2:By the way, it's not some program, it's not boxes that you check, it's hanging out with people, walking alongside them through thick and thin, watching them be boneheads and still saying, oh, that's awesome. I mean, you know, I try not to laugh at people too much. I try to laugh with them, but the reality is I love you, we're going to fail together. Let's walk this journey together and Jesus walked with them through the good and through the bad and loved them exactly where they were. Which really leads to a lot of my work is how do we do that as pastors with our people? Because some of the challenge right is that and I won't get into this too much here, it's in my book, but pastors having friends in the congregation is a hot topic, hot topic.
Speaker 1:Seminaries will tell you.
Speaker 2:What's that?
Speaker 1:I want to hear what you think. Okay, like your stump speech. You don't have to go deep, but give me your stump speech on friends in the church Seminaries will tell you not to do it.
Speaker 2:I will tell you do it Now. There's challenges to it. You have to go into that with awareness. The best way that I really relate this because we struggle with that relationship, because a lot of people say, well, you can't really minister to them. I say, actually, I minister to them better, I know them better, they know the place where I'm coming from. I need a friend and, yeah, it's great if I can find someone outside the church, but I'm really wanting to model connection within the church and I have guys in the church that share great interests and I love hanging out with them and I want them to know me as a pastor and as a person, and so it's one of those things that I think is.
Speaker 2:But there is a challenge. We can't go into it and say, oh, I'm going to have a great friend because you know what your friend friend, because you know what your friend could, um, disappoint you, uh, and but I think we need to have an understanding. The best way to describe it is my wife goes to my church that I'm the pastor of. She's my wife, I'm also her pastor. Is there attention there?
Speaker 2:yeah you know there's I'm not going to be her pastor all every single moment that we're at home, right, um? So I can be a friend to somebody and and I have another pastor describes it this way he goes I have a good friend because I'm good friends, but sometimes I'll be like hey for this conversation.
Speaker 2:I put my pastor hat on, so it just they just have this recognition. But I think pastors have spent so many years feeling isolated and I think some of the reason that pastors move from churches to churches is they get so lonely that they're hoping to regain those moments, that honeymoon moment in the church, where everybody wants to have you over and they want to get to know you. And you know some of that's agenda driven which is in my book, but anyway, but it's like, oh, I feel like I'm having friendships again, and so I think that's some of that that drives that. And so, yeah, I think that it's important. And so when we look at what pastors can do and I'm going to answer this question what's going to lead right into it?
Speaker 2:I think the first thing that we need to do as pastors is pause, take the time, pause and breathe. We have convinced ourselves as pastors that we are more important than we really are, and I have another pastor friend who says you know, pastors are some of the most insecure people that you'll ever meet, because we wrestle with being people pleasers and the reality is we want everyone to be happy, but the reality is no one's, not everyone's going to be happy, that's just the way it goes. So we need to pause and I say, if you don't take intentional time off and I'm not the best at this, I'll give you that but really go, hey, I'm going to be. It's okay for me to enjoy my hobby, it's okay for me to go work out. That's another thing with physical health and mental health. They work hand in hand. You really need to look at that. But pause and then reflect.
Speaker 2:And so I always like to encourage pastors and you kind of did this already to go. Hey, how did uh tell me two instances where a church member made you smile this week? Um, and that's usually where I end when I do some some coaching with guys and just talk to them about things. That's always how I end and I'll end my some of my podcasts Tell me how someone made you smile because we focus so much on that person. So you know, we had a voters meeting and we passed it, but that one person wasn't really loud and they're agreeing, and so you know they kind of gave the stink eye the whole time and I'm like, ah, and that's what I focus on, and not the victory of the great voters meeting and so pause and then be thankful. Just be thankful. I mean I have to tell you, tim, there's sometimes I sit there and go. I can't believe that I get to do pastoral ministry as a job.
Speaker 2:It is such a blessing and it's just awesome. And then, I think, a reality check You're just a person, another sheep in the church of God. You're just a person, another sheep in the church of God, and you're not somebody on a pedestal. You put your pants on one leg at a time, all these phrases that we have, and then to celebrate what God is doing and look for those things that he's doing, and we have to do that. Jesus celebrated, he celebrated when things went well, and I think that we sometimes, you know, back to Peter, he goes, you know flesh and blood. Well, said Peter. Flesh and blood didn't reveal this to you. He goes, but your father. So what he's telling Peter is hey, you're listening.
Speaker 2:And he can recognize that and call that out. And I think for pastors it's really important too, to be honest. When people do build you up, when they say something that blesses you, tell them that Go, man, you know what. You really made my day, you really encouraged me, you really made me feel like I'm actually doing my job that I've been called to do, and so thank you for that, because sometimes we do this well, you know it's really the Lord, and so we give praise to him.
Speaker 2:Yes, we know that, we know that, but you also, god wants you to know well done, good and faithful servant, when she speaks over you in Christ. And so we need to know that, that we need to be encouraged and, yeah, it might be come from somebody else, but we give credit inwardly. Thank you, lord, that you're using me.
Speaker 1:So hey, kirk, I just affirm the call that God has placed on your life to bless your congregation and to bless pastors, to speak words of love and care over them. This is a calling that you could say not to get too charismatic, but an anointing that the Lord has put on you.
Speaker 1:That not many pastors have that and you're playing in spiritual kingdom, spiritual battle, warfare type stuff. Because when pastors come alive, when pastors say you know what, I can pause, I can take time off, I want to live a life of gratitude. I heard you didn't use the word, but I'm just one guy. There's a humility that comes.
Speaker 1:God, if you're going to work, it's got to be about you and your people at work. I'm a small piece of what you're doing, but when you work, man, I will celebrate and I'll just be grateful when people come up and say, pastor, you've played a role in bringing Jesus to me and all I'm going to say is thank you To God be the glory, to be sure, but this has been so much fun. I wanted to talk more about physical wellness. Maybe another time, maybe when I come on with you, we'll talk about the role of taking care of the temple of the Holy Spirit. Love that, and kind of the morning rhythms, that taking care of yourself, especially in the morning, to get yourself going. This is not selfish. It's actually selfless because it allows you to pour yourself more and more into others, out of the overflow of what God has given to you. So this has been great.
Speaker 1:One final word, if you were to say one encouraging word to pastors, just to close. What is and I love how Luther gives us invitation you can speak. This is what pastors do, right, we get to speak Jesus words. What does Jesus say over the everyday pastor? Just grinding, just trying to make it.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, first of all, you're loved. You're not alone and we're so excited of what you're loved. You're not alone and we're so excited of what you're doing, and it's not for nothing. You kind of mentioned it. You know, like I said, we've had these baptisms and they really came out of nowhere and you sit there and you go that's God. I can't take any credit for it, you just go wow. And so I want you to know that there are seasons and that God is with you in those seasons and you're not alone. Paul, when he was praying, he's like oh, you know, I'm stressed out about man.
Speaker 2:It just escapes me what town he was in at the time, but anyway, and the Holy Spirit told him take heart, you're not alone, and I know best practices that's one of the things that Pastor Schrenk always emphasizes but you're not alone, and you're not alone in your church. There are people there that God is using, that truly love you and they're praying for you, and so just take heart.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. If people want to connect with you, kirk, how can they do so In your podcast, several ways, several ways, kirk, at ppmhiorg? If people want to connect with you, kirk, how?
Speaker 2:can they do so In your podcast? Several ways, Several ways. I have kirk at ppmhiorg. That's Pastors Positive Mental Health Institute. You can go to ppmhiorg. You can stalk me on Facebook under my name, Kirk Triplett or Pastors Positive Mental Health Institute. You can find me. I'm not hiding.
Speaker 1:Kirk, you're a gift to the body of Christ. It's an honor to call you a friend and have spent the last hour getting to learn with you and can't wait to join you on your podcast here, really, really soon. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. This is the American Reformation Podcast and we continue to have guests within the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod and outside who inspire us to man unite in mission to make Jesus known. The days are far too short and, pastor, we need you. We need you to be well, we need a heart, body, mind, spirit. We need to be connected in community and we need you to be fired up about the mission of God to get all of his kids back. We'll be back next week on the American Reformation podcast. Thanks, kirk.
Speaker 2:Thank you.