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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Unity Across Denominations + Walking in the Kingdom of God with Pastor Mike Gowans
What happens when believers unify in love and purpose? Pastor Mike Gowans from Bethel Church in Chandler, Arizona, joins us on the American Reformation Podcast to answer this profound question. With a heart fervent for discipleship and church planting, Mike shares his vision for a church that mirrors the diverse yet harmonious nature of heaven. You'll hear his take on countering societal redefinitions of identity and why embracing diversity within the church is not just important but essential for experiencing true freedom in Christ.
Discover the hidden treasures of common grace and the transformative journey of discipleship in our discussion. Mike emphasizes that unity should transcend personal preferences and doctrinal differences, leading us to a deeper understanding of Jesus. We unpack the balance between happiness and maturity, and the role of spiritual resilience in overcoming life's struggles. Through Mike's insights, you’ll learn about the vital importance of acknowledging spiritual warfare and using spiritual weapons to stand firm against the devil's schemes.
Grace and repentance take center stage as we delve into Lutheran theology, exploring the middle ground between "once saved, always saved" and free will. Mike's experiences shed light on the profound nature of salvation and the daily practice of repentance. We wrap up by celebrating the unity among Christian leaders in the East Valley, united by our shared mission to spread the gospel. Join us for an episode filled with wisdom, encouragement, and a heartfelt call to unity in Christ’s mission.
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray. The joy of Jesus is your strength. Today I get to introduce you to one of my favorite partner pastors here in the Valley, pastor Mike Gowans, who is a senior pastor along with his wife, julie, at Bethel Church in Chandler, arizona, and in his bio he says there's nothing else you could pay. I say, mike, you could pay me millions and billions. No, I don't.
Speaker 2:Whatever, this is a calling.
Speaker 1:This is a calling. So how are you doing, man, as you lean into?
Speaker 2:the conversation today. Life is good, man, Sure is. Life is good. Jesus is on the throne and I hope when he returns he's going to find faith in me.
Speaker 1:So that's certainly will and being faithful as a leader. So Mike has a driving passion in discipleship, making disciples of Jesus, leading folks to freedom found in a relationship with Christ. He's also been in the Every Nation movement for 30 years, a global family of churches dedicated to establishing church planning churches man, you had me at church planning churches, churches that plant other churches, multiplying right, reaching the next generation. He's been connected to university campuses across the nation as well. And his driving why is all about relationship, relationship first with God.
Speaker 1:We're going to be talking about the Holy Spirit, our relationship with God through the Holy Spirit time, but we came up with this question. We looked at just the need for 500 years post-Lutheran Reformation. Eric's not even a Lutheran, but he recognized God, did something unique about 500 years ago turning people back to grace, back to there's no works, there's nothing we can do. So we're praying for a revival of faith centered in the grace of Jesus Christ. So, as you look at the broader landscape of the American Christian Church, how are you praying for reformation, mike? And again, thanks for hanging out with me, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, this is fantastic, Pastor Tim, and it's a joy and honor to be here, and so to love your family I love your church, love your ministry and friendships is uh super valuable to me. I wish I was as good of a golfer as you are, but I do enjoy golf, you know.
Speaker 1:I don't know if as much as you, but uh definitely um, yeah, man, since you bring that up, I'm actually taking taking a break from golf for a minute. I got so many other things going on right now.
Speaker 2:And when I say break.
Speaker 1:that means I'm going to move from playing like once a week to once a month, probably something like that. But yeah, it's just a very full time, full time of life. What I didn't tell you, listener, is Mike had his kids go to our school here at Christ Greenfield a number of years back and that was super, super sweet. Yeah, the joy of Jesus is just on your family in a fantastic way. So all that to say, how are you praying for reformation in the American Christian Church. Mike, let's dig in.
Speaker 2:So I really, really believe the Bible and God's heart is for his children to uh, um to get along. You know, uh, I know one of the things for me with my kids that would cause um me not to be happy um was not when my kids made mistakes so much Um, but when they uh weren't getting along with each other. Um, that really, um, that really a nice way of say frustrated me. I just be real. It angered me, yeah, and I think that's it does to God. You know, um just wanting his um, his sons and daughters to um be, you know, get along. Um, I really believe the promise in Psalm 103, where it says when brothers and, I'd add, sisters dwell together in unity, that's the place God commands His blessing. And you know, I believe the fullness of everything we have in Christ, through Christ, is released. I think it's a big deal, um, it's a, it's a really big deal. And um, I don't know that. You know, as leaders and churches, um, we've got way more in common. As Christ followers, those that believe in you know, the authority of the word. Then we do, we do differences and the enemy comes to, you know, to divide. He's the accuser of the brethren. So I'm super passionate about fighting for the unity you know in my own church and body that we walk this out, but in the greater body of Christ. So that's one huge, huge passion and want to see heaven come to earth. You know, I think that's one of the things God wants us to do. There's obviously total unity in heaven. There's also diversity in heaven and I think when the church doesn't embrace who God is in his own nature, is diverse, is in his own nature, is diverse, um, and that mystery, uh, then the, the world will redefine, you know, will redefine those things you know from, from gender to um, you know just everything, I mean it just and and, and it's a real tack of the image of God and um. So I think you know, know, that's another thing I'm very passionate about is I want Dr Rice Brooks, the author of God's Not Dead and has been my mentor and pastor for over 30 years, and so to do that. Our church we've got 33 nations, people born from different nations in our church and super excited about that be like you know, be you know, walking together with um, one another, from different, you know, you know ethnic, social, economic and you know generational backgrounds. So that's a as you can, you know, here I can go on and on about that. That's, that's super important.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, to me in a value and um and the and the next, you know, would be freedom, freedom in Christ. You know, john 10.10 says the thief comes to. You know, kill, steal, destroy. But Jesus said I've come to bring life, life to the full, life more abundantly. And you know, I think, when Jesus, you know, was in the synagogue and he quoted Isaiah, you know the ministry, and that was one of reconciliation, was one of bringing healing, deliverance, freedom, like that's. I'm super passionate. I think man Jesus wants to bring, you know, healing and freedom. I think there's just so much more freedom we have in Christ than believers know about, believers even know is possible, right, and so those are a couple passionate things.
Speaker 1:I hear unity, diversity and freedom. I've done a lot of reading and writing on the mission of God, right, and I think a lot of times we narrow in on the mission of God. So in our denomination and kind of Lutheranism in general, we talk about the means of grace, okay, the way in which God gives us His grace, and there's two primary ways. One is word, right Through his spoken, revealed, written word, and then the other we have a high view of the sacraments, right. So God's work for us, baptism, lord's Supper, god coming to us consistently for the forgiveness of sins. But means are not an end. So what is God's ultimate end? The end is the redemption of the entire cosmos, the restoration of all of his broken and fallen, rebellious creation. And so can we just start with the fact, as we work toward unity in the midst of the diversity, that there's going to come a day when the trumpet sounds, the dead in Christ are raised and then every tribe, tongue, nation are going to gather around the throne of God, proclaiming Jesus as King and Lord and we have the inauguration of the kingdom. It's here now, by grace, through faith in Jesus, and so we're united around the person, work and way of Jesus.
Speaker 1:Can we just start there, you know, and in the early church, right, we had some struggles, we had some struggles and we worked it out right. This is where the creeds kind of come in and we're kind of trying to figure out, okay, who is Jesus right? Is he fully God, is he fully man? There were some touch points where you say, wow, we can't say any more or any less than Jesus said about himself. To see me is to see the Father. The Father and I are one, and so this kind of divine mystery about the person and work of Jesus, the dual nature. And then there were some creedal documents that were given. You know, you have the Apostles' Creed very early, obviously, the Nicene and the Athanasian, which really went kind of geeky in terms of the dual nature of Jesus.
Speaker 1:But can we start there right now, in Catholic, to charismatic? Can we just orient ourselves there and then have conversations about some of the nuances? We're struggling right now in our denomination and this is a podcast the Unite Leadership Collective, and we're proud to be in the right sense, not sinfully proud, but proud to be in a Lutheran heritage. There's a lot of beautiful things, theology, et cetera, but we become very tribal, mike, and we are putting the means above the end. What that sounds like is well, how do you kind of handle women and the Lord's Supper and all of these kinds of things? And it gets very, very nuanced and we get very, very angry and spiteful with one another. And the anger of God does not produce the righteousness of Christ. And so I just love Lutherans should be able to rally around your last value in the church today, which is the freedom of the gospel.
Speaker 1:Martin Luther actually wrote a book called the Freedom of a Christian, and he says it's kind of his magnum opus work and he says once you understand, believe the gospel, the power of Christ for you.
Speaker 1:And he uses words like outside of you, so the gospel comes and it affects you outside right, so the Holy Spirit descends. Jesus claims it's all God's work. Once that kind of downward movement of God to create and sustain faith impacts the human heart, it sets us free to love our neighbor, it sets us free to have hard conversations. You know and is just, and we're carried along now by the Holy Spirit. There's no room for boasting here, mike. This is all the power and work of God, the power of the Holy Spirit, grace, fueling us for a life of freedom. And so you may define some of those words in your context a little bit different, but as you hear me talking man, I just have this strong desire for not just our church body but for the wider church, for us to work from a place of commonality, common grace, theological and contextual hospitality and develop friendships with brothers and sisters in other tribes underneath the big umbrella of Christianity.
Speaker 2:Anything more to say there, though, mike, yeah, man, I love, I mean, obviously it's why we're, you know, we're good friends. I mean I love what you're passionate about and I think I think it's the heart of God. You know I want to be about my father's business. You know I want to be about what's on his heart, what matters to him. And I think many times, man, we will, we, we will take up our own pet doctrines, our own, I mean our own preferences. You know, and and and it's okay, it's okay to even have your favorite stuff, okay, but you, you know it, but don't, but the scripture is, you know, says, you know, when you show favoritism, that's when it becomes a sin, right, it's like, look, we're all, you know, we all have different preferences and I think that's okay and that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 2:And you know, paul obviously addresses, you know people and you know talks about like having grace towards somebody. You know, yeah, that, you know, is like you know what, don't divide over this. You know, show grace. You know give grace and and even you know says, you know those that you know only eat vegetables, right, and that they're a weaker brother. You know, and just a couple of weeks ago I said you know. And just a couple weeks ago I said you know, see, vegetarian, I'm sorry, paul's the one that's called you weaker.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's funny man, but no, I think that, like man, there's so much more. I mean, jesus is, he's it, man, the person of Jesus, and you know we, he's. So I mean we're going to be getting new revelation about who God is for eternity, you know, and and and worshiping in in him and all of his majesty and glory, and I think that's the that, the freedom of being in Christ and discovering that. You know, I really encourage my church, you know, to get in the Bible, not as a religious duty, but man, discover who God is, discover all the promises that you have because of Jesus, because of grace. Right, like it's already been finished, it's a finished thing. Now apply what has been finished.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, um, you know, john, um, third, john, you know, talks about you know, or he asks um, you know it says I pray that you will prosper in all things, in health, even as your soul prospers. Right, and um, you know I, I, you know, see the scripture, man, I am, I am saved, I'm, um, um, I'm being saved and I will be saved. All those things are true, but I, it begins with I'm saved, I mean I'm secure in the love of God. Um and uh, man, does, he have good things for me and he, and and one one thing about even that, you know, you know, freedom, um, and the desire of God is like God's not against our happiness, um, I think sometimes religious people or it's just like all against pleasure, all against happy, and like he's not against your happiness, but he is more for your maturity.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, I mean, it's just like for our kids. It's like man, we man, we want our kids to be happy. But when you make, you know, when you put um second things first, then you lose first and second things, right, when Christ isn't first, then you lose that and the second things, all those other things that will be added unto you. You lose out because you didn't put first things first.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, this is just the first commandment, right, have no other gods. And Jesus comes down and say there's no other way to the Father except through me. And we need that grace so consistently. And when that gets out of whack, man, there are so many idols today, people are making so many idols and we're trying to find pleasure and Christ just says let me walk with you. This is discipleship, isn't it, mike? It's just knowing that we're held by, carried, by following in the footsteps of our suffering servant and therefore, when troubling times come, it's not Jesus is our joy, he's not anti-joy or pleasure, right, he is our greatest joy. He smiles over us, we smile back and when hard times come, we have the resilience of Christ. And therefore we say, with the Apostle Paul, I rejoice in my sufferings, knowing suffering is perseverance, character, character, hope, right. And this is the journey of Jesus. He meets us down in our inevitable struggle and he carries us through, he's with us in it rather than removing us around it. But nonetheless, to your point, the day in and day out.
Speaker 1:Revelation I'll use some words that you use the revelation that I am loved, seen, known, cared for, carried by God in the person and work of Jesus signed, sealed and delivered through the promise of the Holy Spirit. That produces something in me. It's the fruit of the Holy Spirit. It's love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, right, it's just great. That is the greatest pleasure. Jesus is trying to get rid of all of these shallow idols, right? Health, wealth, prosperity, all these types of things Like make me your greatest joy. And guess what that actually does? That changes us physically, like. It changes our minds, it changes our hearts, it changes the way we see the world. When Jesus is our greatest pleasure, anything more there? Mike.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I was just reminded 1999, I had the privilege of going with a group of pastors to China and the privilege of smuggling Bibles and leadership material into China, and then I was working with pastors that were discipling the underground church, working with CBN, um, uh, there, and literally that were, I mean, hundreds of millions of people in the underground church. I mean it's still still growing and and, and you know, still moving God powerfully in there. But we had the uh, this meeting. Which man we had to? We had to make sure nobody was following us, and I mean it was. You know, it was just, it was pretty adrenaline rich, right, but we finally got to this place where there were 12 different leaders of the underground church, one responsible for a million, one of them were responsible for 10 million people, responsible for a million, one of them were responsible for 10 million people, and so they're all together for this meeting and they just thanked us and everybody that was supportive to help train them and just they didn't have the resources and just how they would share one Bible amongst just a whole community and how much they valued it. Right, it was amazing.
Speaker 2:But this is one thing about the suffering you had mentioned. You know we had them just begin to just share some of their story. Every single pastor there had been beaten, had been in prison for some period of time and they're sharing their story and it became almost this, this uh, humble, um, competition of who had been beaten the most, who had been in prison the longest, like, but there was joy, like they found it like like just mind blowing incredible pleasure to suffer for Christ. But they weren't, you know they, they weren't telling the story sucking on sour lemons. You know it was real and it really, I mean, it brought back a person who, man, I, you know I've reframe everything positive my whole life, okay, but I was convicted. I mean I was like, oh man, I don't know, could I Lord? But by the grace of God, all of that, but by the grace of God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, man. Well, who knows what's going to happen? This is the American Reformation. Who knows what's going to happen in America? Could persecution and we don't have to get into politics and how that actually happens, but it could. It could in our lifetime and we will, because the Holy Spirit rests in us. Persecution never, historically, serves as a stoppage to the Christian. It always fuels the mission. The blood of the martyrs fuels the mission of Christ. So if it happens to us, we will stand arm in arm saying I cannot. I cannot but go by spirit and the word. Right, this is. Luther stands. He was walking through some serious stuff. He thought he was going to die a number of different times. Right, I cannot do anything else according to scripture in my conscience other than say what scripture says which is.
Speaker 1:the story of Jesus is centered in the grace and mercy of God, not our works, but totally, totally his grace. And there are some dynamics right now in the American scene that are quite fascinating to watch, but we will stand arm in arm declaring Christ as Lord. Amen, amen, amen. So let's talk about spiritual warfare, maybe in the second part of our conversation here. As you look at the assaults of Satan today, what are they and how do you feel? Like, mike, we kind of, by the Spirit's power, overcome them.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't think the schemes of the enemy have changed in for sure 2,000 years and even beyond. I mean, it's the same playbook, you know. Paul in 2 Corinthians 2 says so that no advantage would be taken by Satan. We are not ignorant of the enemy's schemes. Okay, so, first and foremost, christians got to even believe there is a devil. Okay, I mean CS Lewis said, you know, the greatest trick the devil's ever played is convince people that he doesn't exist. And of course we apply that to to to an atheist or agnostic, but we need to apply it to the church. I mean, the church, you know, is ignorant of the enemy's schemes. I mean, if the fact that they're, yeah, there's some kind of force out there, maybe Like no, there's a person, man, there are devils, and if you read your Bible, like Jesus's ministry was taking authority and casting them out, like it was, that was that ministry. And then Jesus says you're going to do the same things I have done, you know.
Speaker 2:And of course there's Mark, which you know, some, you know don't. Well, I don't know if that was written later, but I mean these are the signs that follow those who believe, whether it was, you know, debatable, whether it was, you know, added or found or whatever. You know, mark 16. Yeah, the later part, you know, but I mean again, it's it's we, it's not contrary to anything in the scriptures, it's, it's a summary of, like hello, this was the ministry, and it wasn't just Jesus, it was the early church. It was the early church, you know, and this is what they did. This was normal Christianity. And you know, and the biggest, again, the biggest trick the devil can play, you know, on anybody is convince, say there's a, you know there's a devil behind every bush right. And I'm like no man, there's, there's a thousand devils behind every bush right.
Speaker 2:It's like you know it's and again, I, you know, we don't want to, you know we can't. And we talk about disciples, something I'm passionate about, you know, I, we, we don't, we, we don't disciple. You know demons in people, we cast them out, but at the same time we have the wisdom. Okay, Well, what is spiritual going on and what is you know and you can't. So you don't disciple a demon, but you don't also cast out the flesh, okay, like, you disciple the flesh. And so then the wisdom is understanding the two.
Speaker 2:Right, not everything is, you know, a devil, you know, but not everything is just your flesh. There's man, there was, I mean, and here's the thing, it's all well, you know, as a Christian, can he be influenced? You know all of those things well for sure. I mean, you know all of those things Well for sure. I mean, paul writes Timothy, who may be pastoring, you know, one of the early mega churches in Ephesus, you know, can you imagine having the Apostle John be a member of your church you got to preach to? He's out there, right, like Timothy is, you know, a young leader.
Speaker 2:And then Paul writes look, god has not given you a spirit of fear, okay, but of love, power and a sound mind, timothy, a man of God. I mean he was being influenced by a spirit of fear. Okay, it was a spirit, it was not, you know, you know a, you know bad. I mean it was a spiritual battle. I mean Paul again, ephesians six, you know again, don't be, you know, stand firm against the enemy schemes. And these are the spiritual weapons that we have. See, if we're trying to fight a spiritual battle by natural means, you're going to lose every time Facts.
Speaker 2:There's a real spiritual battle that's going on. He's the prince of the air. Interesting, isn't it? The airwaves, I mean, obviously we have dominion, we can take authority. Jesus has all that authority, but he's still a prince. There's still authority as he operates in the airwaves. You know, and you know we battle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers. That's the battle.
Speaker 1:That's it, and he's anxious right now. Dude for real.
Speaker 2:Like the end the return of Christ is nearer now than when we first believe.
Speaker 1:It could be that we're living in the early church, or it could be that we're living, you know, a given time. Who knows how the Lord's time works? No one's trying to guess that, because Jesus says not to right. But we know he's nearer now than before, and so his assaults against us I think now, especially in the West, are becoming more overt. He's been more covert, but now it's very, very evident to see the lies that he's moving in our culture.
Speaker 1:You mentioned his assault against the family, against the core institutions in our culture, right, which is the family, assault against gender, etc. Right, his assault, and we could talk. You know the evils of. We're a pro-grace congregation and we're a pro-life congregation, right. I don't really get the folks really rejoicing over this right around abortion, like there's a religious fervor to it and all I know is the gods of the pagan, which is just Satan, right, but the gods of pagan culture have been unleashed in the West, here in America. So can we lock arms again, catholic charismatic Bible, believing Jesus, following people, and say, yeah, there's evil in the world and there's one who stepped into it to defeat it. And he's coming back to ultimately defeat it. And until then, how do we fight? And Paul gives us it in Ephesians, chapter six. He gives us a playbook, like it's not rocket science, right, take up the sword of the spirit, right, we're on the offense. Which is what? The word of God, the word of.
Speaker 1:God. So we fight with the word of God. We look at Jesus the way Jesus fought temptation temptation of the flesh, you know, temptations of power. Right, we fight with the word of God. Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. So, yeah, we should be united in saying that, mike, and agreeing and understanding the time in which we live and I'm not trying to be like overly, you know, pessimistic or dark, but like this is just what the church has done. The church in the early church they're thinking man, jesus he ascended, the angels say he's gonna come back and I, I really believe the apostles are thinking man, it's getting pretty, it's pretty bad right like look at all the christians that are dying.
Speaker 1:Jesus, come back, really, really soon. Nothing has changed. We're still praying that christ would come back to make all things new, to dry every tear, to raise the dead and we live in perfection with god, self, others and the rest of creation, now and forever, like that's. That's our anticipational hope, and we should unite around that. Anything more to say about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fantastic. It's the same battle, man. It's the same battle until Christ come back. I mean even you know, believing Christ is going to come back in our lifetime, great Praise God. Like the early, you know, many generations did. The first generation of the church thought that as well, and we know he's near, and you know. And even on that, going back to unity, I mean there's a lot of different, you know, convictions and perspectives of what? That looks like, but what we can agree on, he's coming.
Speaker 2:okay, he's coming again he's coming back and until then, he wants us to bring the kingdom of God into the earth. Right, and whether you fall under more reformation, I mean, I just believe the kingdom of God is here now and that's what we're walking in Right, and it will come. You know we're not. You know we're not there yet. Christ is going to return but, like again, let's get out there instead of hiding around. I mean just even the idea of how you know some of those things affect you, like hiding around, buying guns, storing up food, like bro. Let's get out there and win lives, let's heal lives and and I and I think one of the things that you know super passionate about is the health of the believer let's win the war. You know, in our minds, like you know, you know take every thought captive, make it an obedient and go. You know, not every thought that you've had originated from you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, praise God, because I've had some really bad thoughts and I would hate to think they originated from me. Ok, and and again, like, obviously, if you feed yourself junk, you're going to. You know, you're going to have a lot more thoughts that are seeming to come from you, but there are just things that you're just like, man, that was a demonic thought that came from the pit of hell and I take it captive, I make it obedient to Christ. And then, man, I just think too that war, that—let's just say this Look, isaiah says, one day we're going to see the devil, the nations, we're going to see the devil and we're going to go. What? Like the wizard of Oz, the man behind the screen, we're going to go. I was afraid of you, yeah Right, I was afraid of you.
Speaker 2:And I think many times, sometimes Christians are like hey, man, if I just ignore that world and all of that man, it just, I won't be afraid, it won't affect me. And again, man, you are, they got you, they've got you. When you don't recognize, they're at work. I mean, we think of even marriage. You know, the devil hates marriage. It's the image of God, right, male and female. He hates this union. And so there's a spiritual battle. Sometimes. You know husbands and wives when they realize, you know what, there's a devil trying to divide us, right, instead of always blaming your spouse going man. No, actually there's a devil that's at work here. He's the accuser of the brethren, which means, you know, he also accuses spouses against one another, but he accuses pastors against one another. He like we can't be ignorant of that. Okay, I mean I'm supposed to think on what is good, what is lovely and what is pure, and if my brother or sister offends me, I'm not going to take the bait of Satan and take the offense. Like that's a big deal, like to me that's one of the things that really just keeps people enslaved.
Speaker 2:As you have done a lot of ministry and myself, I mean it is one of the things that man. I mean it is one of the things that man, if you don't forgive them, you know it's like drinking poison, hoping the other person is getting hurt. That's right, and many times the person that's offended you hurt, you doesn't even know they did. But if even they did, let's say somebody did, they know it, they've moved on forgetting about you. You know, like why would you let them continually hurt you. Jesus made a way Freely. You've received grace, freely. Give it. And sometimes I think it's a struggle for people that have been wrongly treated right that they think, if I forgive them, that I'm saying what they did is okay. No way, yeah, no way. No, it's wrong, but Jesus did pay for that. Now, whether they ever get to receive it or not is up to them. But release it off of you. Don't let it hurt you anymore.
Speaker 1:For sure, bud. Hey, I've said that's so good. I've said all of life is confession and absolution. I didn't say that. There's many people that have said that the quicker we get to confessing our sin and or absolving one who has sinned against us, whether they receive it or not, the quicker we get to Jesus. And I think of the apostle Peter.
Speaker 1:I was reading at the end of John, right when Jesus says his breakfast on a beach Peter, do you love me? Do you love me? It's like this, this confession, yeah, lord, you know, you know I love you. And Peter's got the weight, the guilt of it all. And and yet, feed my sheep, feed my sheep. This immediate moment.
Speaker 1:And this is, this is the spiritual crux of the whole thing. How do you know, how does a person know they're under spiritual oppression? You're living with the exact opposite of the Holy Spirit. What the fruit of the Holy Spirit wants to give you? Right, he wants to give love, and so he replaces hate, he wants to give joy, he replaces fear and it just opens us up. And you see this in the Apostle Peter's life, right, I mean very early on, even in Acts, chapter one post-ascension, he's gathering the church, he's kind of building. You know the leadership team as Matthias comes on and then he becomes a spokesman once Pentecost descends and tells this amazing, you know, fearless, courageous story about who Jesus is and what he's done and how his arms are stretched out wide both to Jew and Gentile. It's amazing the courage that came and he set aside the lies of Satan. You're not able to speak this word because of what you've done?
Speaker 1:Who's going to listen to you? So, yeah, I want to live with the courage of the Apostle Peter, the Apostle Paul and with others who have gone before. You know, luther, I'd love to get your take on this. You may not know this, but Luther and I didn't come up with this. This is a shout out to Bob Cole. We've interviewed him. He's like one of the greatest living Luther historians. But early on Luther didn't talk a whole lot about Satan. He talked a lot about theology and kind of you know all good things right, but he didn't talk about Satan. The older he got, the more he would spend in dialogue and just calling out the promises of God.
Speaker 1:He would speak like he was Jesus rebuking Satan over him when he had a spirit of fear, and he was, you know because or anxiety, he had some physical ailments, so he would call out Satan, you wily devil, you liar. He would like Luther got pretty crass too. He would like cuss out Satan right.
Speaker 1:Using words of German like you have no right to take up space in my head and heart and to round back to what you say, you have no right to get me to hate my brother who has sinned against me. You love them, you're pursuing them, so I release them to you as I live, with courage and freedom to declare who you are and what you've done. Any take on that. And the older you get, the more the assault of Satan, and I recognize there's an enemy right and it's Satan. It's me right. I can get in my own way sin that lives within me, but it's certainly not my brother or sister in Christ right that Jesus loves them. He died for them, and I just want to lock arms with them and go on mission to let the world see Jesus through our unity. Anything more to say, though, about spiritual warfare the older you get.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think it gets to me. It's more real, you know it's, it becomes more and more real and um, you know, and just recognizing the enemy and enemy schemes and I am is you mentioned early in our, in our, our talk, you know, it's all about relationship and um, the devil comes to destroy relationships. It's been doing it from the garden and that's his play is to destroy. Sin breaks relationship, relationship with God and one another, and Jesus came to restore that. So he did everything to heal and restore relationship with God and that, praise God, my relationship with the father, son, the Holy spirit, are secure. You know, and you know we have to walk out the, you know the, the, the uh, grace with one another.
Speaker 2:And and and Paul says do everything you can to be at peace with everyone. And I think that's the question have you done everything you can? Because sometimes you have, but I think you have to regularly ask that question, right? It's like, have I done everything? And one of the things you can always do, and it's not always easy, okay, grace, the reason we need grace is because life is hard, okay, and there are things god's asking us to do that are impossible apart from his grace, right, and obviously our salvation impossible without his grace. But to forgive somebody who's betrayed you, whoa, I need his grace.
Speaker 2:And and here's something I've been looking at, you know, pastor Tim God's reminded me because, as an early believer, I came across the passage where, you know, jesus says if you don't forgive others, I won't forgive you. Okay, and so I'm like I don't need any other motivation, that's, that's all I need, right, okay, and and then, and I'll just be real, I don't some of this. I don't even understand how it works out theologically, where Jesus tells a story about the, the, the rich ruler who forgives a big debt, and then he goes out and he strangles somebody with a little debt, and then here's what's wild, and I mean is that he reinstates what was forgiven. You know and again, I believe in, you know, the grace of security, the grace of overcoming the saints we overcome, you know. But there's something about maybe in this life, if you don't forgive somebody else and you will not forgive them, like will God go? Well, I'm going to reinstate some of the things I forgave you of on this side of heaven.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying about eternity, but I mean and I just saw this play I won't mention, but even on the on the um, oh, the big scale, some big leaders that have fallen and I've just I've known how they have not been willing to forgive other leaders and they broke in relationship and were and things. And again, I'm just my opinion. I have a fear of God, of like did God give time for them to go? Hey, reconcile, do everything you can, because if you don't, that could be bad. Yeah, it could be. I, yeah again. So, but that's the spiritual battle man you're about. Like dude, why not forgive? Get free, yeah, you know, get free.
Speaker 1:And so, man, it's the daily call to repentance, yes, and to recognize the, and repentance is actually metanoia in the Greek. I've talked to have you read the book called Metanoia by Alan Hirsch and Rob Kelly I had Rob on this podcast a bit ago, really but they kind of redefine metanoia and repentance as not just in the Hebrew sense, it's a turning around, right, but in the Greek sense it's a meta above, so setting your mind on things above, knowing things that are above. So the better definition is more like a daily paradigm shift, or you could say a moment by moment paradigm shift of I'm not on the throne of my life. There's a God who is praise, be to God, he loves me and he's given me a mission, a purpose and a zeal for sharing the gospel with other people. The kingdom of heaven is near, repent and believe, trust in all the promises of God, and Satan wants to lead us away from the promises of God. So yeah, you were kind of playing in serious theological rounds there, so I'll just throw a little bit of a bone.
Speaker 1:You know Luther and Lutherans in general, we kind of walk a middle theological line between the Reformed on the one side who say kind of once saved, always saved. And we can kind of have some struggles there because sometimes and I'm not saying in all the preaching, but sometimes a logical conclusion could end up in works how do you know? How do you ultimately know that you're the elect? It's because of, maybe, your fruit or something that you do? So we kind of don't stay, we don't go that far. But then on the other, it's free will. And this is our Baptist brothers and sisters who talk about receiving, accepting, believing, but then also walking away, walking away from the faith, right. And so this story that you referred to of the hard words of the master coming back down upon that wicked servant could be some may interpret you know what they were in right. I mean, they'd received the mercy and grace of God, apart from anything they had done. It was complete, it was radical, radical grace.
Speaker 1:So this is where Lutherans would say grace comes down from above, like the master has to speak, the father has to speak to declare us righteous. But then what we'll also say and this is where you can't say a whole lot more than this, and I like how you kind of walked up to it, but they could walk away Like they could say thank you. This is a parable of the prodigal son. Right, everything I have is yours. They could walk away. When they come back, when they repent, the Father's grace is lavish. He throws a party. It's amazing, right, but there could be a moment that they walk away and I don't know what that looks like, into eternity. This is playing in God's realm, but there could be some that reject for us their baptismal identity, their walk with the Lord, and so there's this kind of center place where Lutherans kind of confessional, conservative Lutherans kind of land to you, righteous, is a really big, a really big deal for us. Any anything to add to that, mike?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean, I'm right with you, man, and all in that. I mean it's some of the scripture says you know, salvation is even a mystery, you know, like in that mix, and again, doesn't mean we don't, you know, dive in. I know my mentor, pastor Rice. He said, you know this is famous line from him. You know it's like, oh, man, that because he speaks on university campuses now in his retirement on the existence of God and and how it's there, you know, there's design, you know, in creation, and he's amazing and and, uh, um, bringing you know thousands of of, uh, university students to Christ. But he says this, he goes, uh, he says there, you know, there's things that you go, you go, man, that's just above my head, right, and and there are things that are above our heads but they're still within reach. You know, they're still within reach. If we'll stretch, if we'll reach out, we can, you know, understand. You know there is a spirit of understanding and there is revelation, and then there's just some things too that we can, you know, go. Yeah, I don't know that. I fully understand that, but I mean for sure I thought I understood. You know, there are things 10, 20 years ago I'm like, oh yeah, I totally understand. And today I'm like I'm not sure, Like I just want to walk humbly and in truth, that I, you know, you know matured. But I mean, on that it just, man, god wants us to win, he wants us free. And I love what you're saying about. You know this repentance, like man.
Speaker 2:I remember a time years ago I was speaking at a Christian school in Nashville. I mean at the time it was like $30,000 a year. A high school. I mean it made, you know, your school be, you know, super valuable. You know, putting our kids there. Once again, man, what the school did? Christ Greenfield, my kids laying a foundation of Christ. I mean, if you're watching and you're in the area, man, get your kids to this school. I mean it is amazing. And you know, they've all now graduated, they're all like on fire for Jesus and being used.
Speaker 2:So good fire for Jesus and being used.
Speaker 2:But, um, so, but back, uh, you know, to the uh, uh, what we're talking repentance, you know, Hebrews six, you know, is it's one of the elementary things. Um, you know, you don't, you can't leave those elementary things. I mean, you know, as in sports, I mean it's um, it's about the it's. It's not about doing the extraordinary things, it's about doing the ordinary things extraordinarily well, and I think that's about repentance. It's a lifestyle of repentance. You know, I call it the J factor. We come into a new truth, the Holy Spirit brings a truth into our lives and then we get to repent, to receive that truth and, by the grace of God, go to the next level. So, as a J, you know, you go down, you humble yourself in the resurrection power of Christ and the cross pays for that takes you to another truth, that you get to repent.
Speaker 2:And so what I have found in a believer there's three things. I'll leave this. I'll say this You've got to be good If you're going to continue to be a growing Christian and a healthy Christian have even a great marriage this would be applied to any relationship is you've got to be good and quick to repent. You got to be good and quick to forgive, and you got to be good and quick to believe. I'll tell you if you can do those fundamental things, man dude, you are going to thrive. You are going to look back 10 years from now and go, man. God has done so much in me. People in your life will go. Man Tim was great 10 years ago, but man look at him today.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, that's the journey of sanctification right, becoming more and more like Jesus, empowered by the Holy Spirit, that the character of Christ would be seen in us more and more and more. You know the Bible. Some people may if you're a really staunch Lutheran, they may hear this kind of continual revelation of truth. And I'm just putting on kind of the skeptic, kind of the cantankerous Lutheran hat for a second. They may hear this kind of continual revelation of truth, think it's something other than Scripture. So what I would go to is say the Bible is a living document. You don't read it, it reads you, it exposes the heart and it leads us into all truth.
Speaker 1:And the way I look at certain scripture passages, depending on my context, learning my discipleship, other people, like I'm gonna interact with it in a different way and guess what it's going to do. It's going to reveal truth, empowered by the Holy Spirit. Right, and that's just the way the word works. If we have that to your point, that humble, repentant posture as we interact with the scripture and let it work in us. And then people let me give you a shout out here I mean there's other people in our lives who have been immersed in the scripture, and this is what I love about your kind of faith family who speak and you'll use like words of knowledge, words of blessing et cetera, but they're just wise spiritual fathers and mothers who pray over you and speak words of care and courage.
Speaker 1:Like this is something in the Lutheran tradition. We think this is really really weird. Wow, you know like there are people that are prayer warriors in our congregation. I'm not trying to throw us under the bus necessarily, but like a rhythm of deep prayer, intercessory prayer over not just like the physical stuff but the spiritual stuff. That's huge. The prayer over a brother's hand, the laying on of hands, if you will, if they're comfortable with that. There's a powerful exchange of truth and power and love that moves in the prayer of the saints. Anything more to add to that? Because that's what I've loved about your community.
Speaker 2:Well, Pastor Shema, it just reminded me of a story of a, of a pastor who actually God used to start, uh, um, you know, um, an evangelical movement in um through right around the time of the Jesus movement, um, you know, revolution.
Speaker 2:And he, he was in Hollywood, he was a executive there, young, younger person, but I mean he was on drugs, alcohol and he he just escaped to a small town in in in Nevada and he started going to a church and he's living in a hotel just out, just unplugging, cause he was like I'm going to die, and, by the grace, led him to a church and he's attending this church the very first service he goes to. At the end of service he walks up to the pastor who gave no invitation to, you know, to receive Jesus, but he just he knew Jesus was the answer and he goes Pastor, what do I do? Like well, what do I do to get saved? Like I mean, you talk about man, wouldn't that be great? Just after you preach, everybody just comes up and goes you know like Peter they're pierced to the heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do we do, man? What do we do to get saved?
Speaker 2:But I mean it was almost as. The pastor was shocked, you know, and he sat down with but praise God, he knew enough to pray with him. He gives his life to Christ. So then he goes back and he gets the Gideon Bible, you know, in his hotel and you know, and just starts reading it and he comes back to every service, you know, like I think there's a Wednesday and a Sunday, and for a month he's reading the Bible, he's coming to church and then after the month he pulls the pastor aside. He says you know, pastor, when do we get to start doing the things that are in the Bible? Isn't that funny? And the pastor's like, oh well, you know, it's kind of complicated.
Speaker 2:You know, god doesn't really't really do that anymore oh, he's a cessationist, you know, and and and I'm like and he and he goes really, what do you mean when I live for the devil, he let me do everything. And you're telling me now that, now that I'm living for god, like I don't get to do the things that he let all these? You know, man, I just thought I mean just common sense. You know god doesn't want us to throw out common sense. You know it's like so many things that we believe, like, like you got to even that you got to go to Bible college to come up with a conclusion that God doesn't heal.
Speaker 2:Today, you know you need some kind of you know PhD that you know can take the scriptures and in some way show you how this is doesn't work, you know anymore, and how you know, and it's just the devil's, in my opinion. You know it's just like, yeah, bro, let's just get down to man, if Jesus said it, that settles it. Man, if Jesus did it and he said, man, you're going to do these things, then we got to examine ourselves and go am I doing those things? Cause you know we all have that phase. You know what would Jesus do?
Speaker 2:Bracelets, you know like, you know well, first of all, what did Jesus do? And then go into like hey, let's um, let's do it, let's just do it, let's just keep it simple. We don't have to complicate this thing. Like get out there, know the authority you have in Christ, like that's a big deal. And I think is you know, I love, I'm so grateful for Martin Luther and the Reformation. Okay, I mean because it's the priesthood of the believer, it's the authority that believer has, it's the finished work, like I'm here, like I'm totally secure man.
Speaker 2:And the love of God he forgives me. I don't fear punishment from God. Okay, I mean why? Because there's no punishment, you know, for his sons and daughters. Like there's, yeah, he may discipline me, but that's for the motivations love yeah, that's right and maturity. I don't have to fear punishment because Jesus took on that punishment.
Speaker 2:Like I'm a big believer of who you are in Christ, pastor Tim, I think that's a you know and I know you are as well. It's like man, who are you in Christ in the finished work, man, I am not trying to earn the love of God. I am not trying to earn the things that are gifts and I think that's the thing that's super important is like righteousness, like it's a gift. You can't earn it, you can only receive it. Right. But there are rewards. We will receive rewards one day. You know like and Jesus said this, not only do we are the rewards in heaven, but there are rewards on earth. Like those of us who sacrifice to give up things here on earth, we'll get those things here and in the life to come.
Speaker 1:Well, the great yeah there's. There's the reward of faith and just knowing without a shadow of a doubt. I'm loved by the God of the universe and I think the greatest reward is internal. He's given me a mission, a purpose, a passion for life, right and gifts that are meant not for myself but for the world. You kind of threw preppers under the bus there a little bit earlier in our conversation. If you're a prepper out there, you're listening, you're like the end of the world's coming and you got to tell me your address, man, because I'm coming out, because that's not exactly where I am. I recognize the end is going to come, but I want to waste my life not in fear and protection, preservation, but in giving my life away for others. There's freedom in that. Hey, mike, I got to go to a meeting man. I pack these right in between other church meetings.
Speaker 1:So if you would come back, there's so much more listener for Mike to share in the coming month or so We'll do a part two and we're going to talk about Victory Weekend. We're going to talk about Night of Hope. We're going to talk about generational curses. You need to come into that conversation. Today was just the primer and the pump has been primed by the Holy Spirit today.
Speaker 2:Mike for part two.
Speaker 1:So good man, If people want to connect with you, that would be so much fun. How can people connect with you and your ministry if they desire to?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're here in the East Valley along with you. I mean, we just planted a new congregation in Queen Creek. That just began, and so we've got two locations in Chandler and you can go to Bethel Bethel Chandler dot com and get information there. One another passionate thing we're on is taking people on mission. God's opened some amazing doors in Latin America and Africa and you know you don't need a word from God to stay. You know he already gave us a word to go.
Speaker 1:So we're just taking that love.
Speaker 2:Everywhere there's an open door.
Speaker 1:So good man. Hey, mike, it's an honor to call you a friend and partner in the gospel here in the East Valley, and let's lock arms. I've said that numerous times, friend and partner in the gospel here in the East Valley, and let's lock arms. I've said that numerous times today, united in the common confession that Jesus Christ is Lord. And we can have a nuanced conversation about things that we may speak about differently, for sure, but all I know is you're my brother in Christ. I love your family, I love your ministry, I love your zeal to get the gospel into the heart and ears of people. That is our call as well. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. This is the American Reformation Podcast. We'll be back next week. Thanks so much, pastor Michael Gowans, love you brother.
Speaker 1:God bless Love you too, Pastor Tim.