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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Uniting Church and Education: Navigating Social Challenges with Kurt Rohrs
What if the American Christian church and public education could unite to address today's most pressing societal challenges? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Kurt Rohrs, a governing board member of the Chandler Unified School District, as we navigate the turbulent waters of social disorder, violence, and class divisions. Drawing from historical reformation movements, Kurt offers fresh insights into the significance of liberty and the First Amendment in safeguarding religious practices within secular school systems. This episode delves into the delicate balance of discussing Christian beliefs in educational settings amidst the rise of cancel culture, while also emphasizing the vital role of leadership in fostering open dialogue.
Is social media the modern-day addiction we should fear the most? We tackle this provocative question by exploring the impact of technology on parenting and communication, especially in the wake of COVID-19. Kurt shares his perspectives on the challenges posed by social media addiction, likened to a dangerously addictive substance, and underscores the importance of parental control over children's device use. Together, we unpack the role of pastors and churches in addressing cultural issues like rising anxiety and moral decline, advocating for clear parental boundaries to combat the link between youth-related crimes and technology use.
Can schools focus solely on education while respecting family autonomy on sensitive matters like gender identity? The episode moves into contemporary issues, advocating for schools to remain neutral and respect family privacy in navigating topics like the LGBTQ+ conversation. We reflect on the importance of moral leadership in the home and church, where such guidance should primarily originate. With a nod to our diverse audience, including many Lutherans, we encourage steadfastness in proclaiming the word of God, and we extend our gratitude to Kurt for his invaluable contributions. Don't miss this thought-provoking dialogue that invites you to share, like, and subscribe for more meaningful conversations aimed at reestablishing faith as a vital force for good in our communities.
Welcome to the American Reformation podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray. The joy of Jesus is your strength as we get the privilege of learning today with Kurt Roars. Let me tell you a little bit about Kurt. Kurt and I met actually at a Christianity, church and politics kind of seminar that we hosted here at Christ Greenfield a couple months ago and we talked to kingdom theology. We talked about the church in the world and the church's perspective toward an ever shifting culture today and especially as it relates to the next generation and parenting teens. So let me tell you why Kurt is wonderful to speak on this topic today. He is currently serving as a governing board member of the Chandler Unified School District and he wants me to let you know he's appearing today representing his personal views, not those of the governing board.
Speaker 1:Kurt is a father of three children, all educated in Chandler's excellent schools. They've all gone to college. His oldest now is a professional. Of three children, all educated in Chandler's excellent schools They've all gone to college. His oldest now is a professional praise, be to God. He has a passion for quality education and, as a parent, was a regular speaker at district board meetings. He's also worked on the district citizens budget committee for 15 years, praise God.
Speaker 1:Kurt also worked extensively with kids as a coach and we share that, kurt. I'm currently a football coach right now of my son's high school team as a coach for after school sports and volunteered at ICAN tutoring as a homework assistant. There he was a certified substitute teacher and worked regularly in Chandler Unified School District. Kurt is active as a public policy committee member and he has man with the Chandler Chamber of Commerce championing career development pathways for students. He's also a member of the Rotary Club. Shout out to Rotary. My grandpa, kurt, was a big time Rotarian and praise be to God. Kurt attended a graduate degree in chemistry, holds an MBA in finance and he's currently running his own business in Chandler as a financial advisor. So, kurt, how are you doing today? Buddy? Thanks for taking the time on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Well, good morning, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 1:Good to be with you. So this is a standard opening question on the American Reformation podcast. As you look at the broader church you just said you were speaking at one of our larger churches here in the East Valley as you look at the broader American Christian church, kurt, how are you praying for reformation, brother?
Speaker 2:The reformation at least in this country, trying to research it a little bit started about 100 years ago, but particularly for the same reasons that we're facing today social disorder, violence in the the community and a lot of class divisions. I think it's about looking at liberty and freedom for people, particularly the freedom to practice your religion. So one thing I think that a lot of people misunderstand is that we have a First Amendment right to practice our religion without interference from the government, and that's the way the First Amendment actually reads it's government not interfering in religion. It's not religion not interfering in government. And the last part of it is I think and I really appreciate you doing this people need to start talking. I think they've been shut off from each other. I think they've been shut off from each other. There's a lot of cancel culture going on, where certain points of view are just discouraged from being discussed, and a lot of those have to do with the American Christian church. So trying to push this forward and get this conversation going again, I think is extremely important.
Speaker 1:So what do you attribute that kind of cancel culture to? Rise of social media, the tribal culture that can exist not just in the public sphere but also in the Christian sphere as well? I'm in a denomination right now where we even struggle talking with one another around differences of opinion, maybe around how the church does worship or just practices their life in the community in general. We struggle to disagree agreeably today and to listen twice as much two ears, one mouth right, listen twice as much as we speak. What do you attribute some of those struggles right now to?
Speaker 1:Because I think, if you get down to just the everyday common man, I don't know that they're experiencing. I think they you get down to just the everyday common man, like I don't know that they're experiencing, I think I think they're just trying to make it like you know, the family just caring for the next generation of kids. But then they look at the public sphere and it's like why do leaders struggle to engage one another? I think it's a leadership problem. Kurt, to be quite honest, I'd love to get your take on it.
Speaker 2:You know a lot of people recognize this that secularism has been pretty well established in the public schools and a lot of this is a, I guess, a doctrine arising from, I guess, the political left you might even say it's Marxist doctrine who finds American Christianity itself to be a threat to what they're trying to push forward. So the greatest challenge is actually being able to speak about our beliefs and our fundamental approach to right and wrong, and we base that on the Bible, and you can't even say Bible in the schools anymore. So there's something very wrong, I think, with that. You know, the Bible is in one sense a historical document, but it's also a social document. So why would we have other social views being presented without presenting that one which is probably the fundamental social view that founded the country, that one which is probably the fundamental social view that founded the country?
Speaker 2:Good example is school prayer. Why can't there be prayer in schools? Okay, the government's not still the interfering of the establishment of a religion or the free practice of religion, but they do. Most schools in this country were founded as religious schools, as the churches took the lead in educating children. So greatest challenge, I think, is reestablishing our faith as a major force in our lives and then it's actually a force for good and not discouraging it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amen, and the government, and since our schools are run by the government, the government has a responsibility to come underneath the fourth commandment, which is children honoring their father and mother.
Speaker 1:They work as an extension of the office of mother and father, and I think one of the things that frustrates folks is this rhetoric that we get to parent your kids. We know what's best for your kids, and this is where there's a lot of anger from a lot of parents when they don't know exactly what their kids are learning, nor even some of the choices, the indoctrination that's taken place in some of our, some of our schools. And I think I try to talk about this in a reasonable way, because I don't think anger and I know you do as well Anger does not produce the righteousness of God. But we also have to be clear about where we see, see some gaps and you're, you're circumventing, overpowering maybe your, your realm and you're stepping over and maybe on God's primary office, which is that office, especially in the horizontal realm, that office of mother and father, that office of the family. That is our primary vocation as children of God. Any comments there though, kurt, especially in the public sphere?
Speaker 2:Well, two of them. Any comments there, though, occurred, especially in the public sphere. Well, two of them. So we're in Arizona. Arizona state law says very specifically that parents have the right to direct the upbringing of the minor child. It's Arizona revised statute 1-601 and 602. It is state law that the parents raise the children Okay. My second comment is that is, educators. We're in the business of teaching kids how to read. Okay, we're not in the business of teaching kids how to live their lives. That I rely on the pastors of the church, no matter what church, to provide that leadership of teaching people, parents and their children, how to lead a righteous life. That's not for the schools to do. We do reading, writing, arithmetic and prepare them to be productive adults. That does not include religions, or even quasi-religions, like, say, a woke agenda would be. That's just not in our mandate. So I think we need to get back in our lane and let the churches do the raising of kids according to whatever moral and ethical principles that they need to do.
Speaker 1:Hmm, that's good. You mentioned the word woke that gets thrown around quite precipitously in our culture today. Have you seen some woke you say it's semi-religious movements even in the Chandler District here in the East Valley of Phoenix?
Speaker 2:Well, there are people that try to push, I guess, political and social doctrines in the schools, and that's what, and that's my point about getting outside your lane Schools. Public schools should be neutral. It's just not our mandate to go do that and that's why I would rely on the churches to do that. They always have done that. They always have done that. Now, canceling that voice, I think, has been very detrimental, you know, to the raising of children and reinforcing what parents want to do in the homes. It's not our job to reach in the home and raise the kid, it's just not. And I see that encroach from time to time, even though it seems to be a pushback now, at this point that you know public school has gone too far with a lot of this.
Speaker 1:So I am kind of expecting you know the pastors in the community to step up and show the leadership on working with parents and how to raise kids. From that viewpoint, yeah, no, that's, that's a big time call for us. Today we have the privilege of walking alongside parents at all different ages and stages of development of their children and we do not take and I'm just speaking as a pastor in a local church, we do not take that responsibility lightly at all. It is our primary call to disciple the next generation to grow up into functional, successful, if you will, contributing members of society. More than that, to have even a higher view, contributors to the expansion of God's kingdom that's filled with love and grace and passing on the faith in Jesus Christ, the crucified and risen one, to the next generation. Like, if we abdicate that responsibility, we are totally missing. Have you read the new book? It's new-ish. The Anxious Generation, kurt.
Speaker 2:I haven't read it, but it seems to be a very popular book and actually I spoke on that yesterday at our parents group.
Speaker 1:What did you share?
Speaker 2:Well, from the secular side and from the policy side, it's my view and talking to a lot of people over the last few weeks about this that social media is the main cause of teen anxiety and depression, because they're continually being bombarded by emotional and psychological manipulation by various people, either for the good or for the bad. Maybe they just want to sell their products, maybe they want to push a certain point of view? Not really, isn't it? Kids, particularly young kids, do not have any defense against this. They're not adults, they don't know how to handle these things. They're easily influenced. I would say.
Speaker 2:The second part is that social media addiction. And as I brought that concept up, people were starting to say, yeah, this has a lot aspects of an addiction. You can't get them off it, it's delivered through the cell phone. So social media is the heroin, the cell phone is the needle, and trying to control cell phone usage may be one of the best parenting techniques to start fighting back against this. If your kids are on their cell phones all the time, they're being barred by other views that you may or may not like, but as a parent, it's your job to raise your children and if you abdicate that responsibility, somebody else is going to do it, and that, I think, is what's going on right now. So we need, I think, raise awareness on that might be the most useful thing 100% agree.
Speaker 1:I use an app called Accountable2You and a lot of times it's used to have, you know, men maybe help.
Speaker 1:They may have a porn addiction or something like that, but it's a really good tool for me monitoring what sites my kids are coming to. And just this morning I get this email that says questionable activity and it was some goofy goofy YouTube site and I talked to my daughter about it like she's not walked through that and she goes Dad, it just popped up and I and I believe her to be quite honest, you know, like it just the ad just popped up right between her little teeny bopper show that she was watching. I mean, there is robust evil in the world and I think that's one of the uniting comments today for the church. We have to identify what is false, what is evil, what is not helpful. And we identify what is false, what is evil, what is not helpful, and we must speak into it. A lot of times, pastors, I think in the past and I'm a historian, right, so I look back I'm like wow, a generation ago you know, 80, some years ago pastors were confronted World War II and.
Speaker 1:Hitler's Nazi and I'm a Lutheran right, so there's a lot of Lutherans there. In that context. We didn't speak about what was going on in culture, and maybe we did, but it was too little, too too late, and I don't I don't want that to be a part of our story Like I pray that pastors can talk about the issues of this day, the, the rise in anxiety, the abortion, murder, all of these cultural ills, and that we can stand on the law of God but then move through the law of God to the grace of God, the new identity that is ours. We don't have to be governed by the ways of this world. We've been given the spirit of the crucified and risen Jesus, so we can metanoia, set our minds above, and leaders have to take the role right now to help people think clearly. Parents think clearly and parents to then set loving, clear boundaries for their kids about what human thriving is going to look like heart, body, mind and spirit. How can pastors, from your perspective, engage in public discourse in a helpful way? Kurt?
Speaker 2:I think you need to support parents, and what came out of yesterday's discussion is a very good discussion was that, as parents, you can't be afraid of your kids. Okay, who's running the household here? The kid or you?
Speaker 2:No, it's good and if you say, for instance, they get on their cell phones again and are doing things they probably shouldn't be doing and you take that cell phone away. A lot of parents are very afraid to do that because the kids will throw a fit first of all, and I hate you and go to the room and not talk to them for a week or whatever. You know that's part of parenting and you can't be afraid of that. You need to take charge of what's going on in your own household. And for instance, I would say, getting back to cell phones again there is no reason for a kid to be on their cell phone past nine o'clock at night.
Speaker 2:Cell phones again there is no reason for a kid to be on their cell phone past nine o'clock at night. There's no reason at all. Because in talking to law enforcement and, believe me, local law enforcement is very much involved in this, because a lot of the crimes that are committed at the teenage level involve a cell phone somehow and social media somehow. So they see it as very much of a threat, but they totally most of the predators online are online after 10 o'clock because they know the parents won't be monitoring the phone and that's a very, very serious problem. So I would think with the pastors, getting parents together, having parents talk with one another and reinforce each other in the courage, the courage to start parenting your kids and getting back on the right path, because right now somebody else is parenting them and you don't know who they are.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so good. And have you seen a shift, though, in parenting over your lifetime, from, you know, parents being and there's there's probably a pendulum here to a degree like parents being very, very hard? Uh, I'm definitely not your friend. I'm here to set clear boundaries and raise you up. You know, I'm kind of going into the other extreme, whereas today, like, maybe, enmeshment is taking place.
Speaker 1:My identity is so tied to what my kids do. I think this is maybe the touch point that if I, if I offend my kid, then, man, are they going to? Are they going to cancel, cancel me from their life? And and maybe because the kids are so vulnerable right, this, this anti-fragility that you can talk about our kids are so so we don't want to do anything, say anything or set any kind of boundary that could put them, put them over the edge, and and then you've got folks to say, well, look at the rise in suicide rates and mental health crisis, I don't want to do anything to kind of kind of, you know, tip them in that negative direction. Have you, have you experienced kind of a shift of some sort, especially in the last Well, since 2010, really, and the iPhone have you seen something substantial there?
Speaker 2:Kurt as a father. Yeah, the COVID was a big break. I think COVID was a big break in our just social experience, particularly our kids. Kids were home all the time and then they were online. But one thing I brought up yesterday and I'm going to reiterate that this is parents need to talk to each other. So if you, as a parent, set a rule you can't be on your cell phone past nine o'clock and the parents of all your child's friends you talk to them and say, yeah, we all have the same rule, and the kid can't come back and say, why are you picking on me? Because this is a general rule for all the parents in our parent group and this is what we're going to enforce. So you're going to unite as parents to push back on this, and that's going to have a far greater effect than trying to do this one on one no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Well, shout out to parent groups and maybe schools that say we're all going to stop having our kids be on their cell phone. Nine o'clock is the limit, the curfew, it's done. Man, wouldn't that be cool if a lot of schools and churches just kind of collectively, maybe all is think about just doing that. The Christ's Creed rule is no cell phone usage. Parents too what would that look like? Parents too, After nine o'clock. We don't lead by the law, we lead from love and freedom. But I think that would be a nice freedom giving law that could be enacted in our respective communities. Thank you for that, Kurt. All right Coming down the homest respective communities. Thank you for that, Kurt. All right, coming down the homestretch here. Thank you for the generosity of time. As you look at Jesus, what's your favorite story of Jesus engaging in public kind of political discourse and maybe a story that some folks wouldn't identify as public discourse, Kurt.
Speaker 2:That's a really interesting question. I'm glad you asked because it actually came up yesterday in our discussion. The favorite story, at least the one that I'm concentrating now, is the story of the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman at the well, when Jesus just walked up and asked for a drink and she was very well, very well aware that he was a Jew and she was a Samaritan, and they just did not talk. Very similar to some of the political discourse that we have here. People don't even talk to each other, they don't trust each other, they don't like each other, they assume the worst of each other.
Speaker 2:And he started a discourse and spoke to her and at that point, you know his disciples would walk and say she's a Samaritan. Why are you talking to her? You know his disciples would walk and say she's a Samaritan. Why are you talking to her? It's because I want to have her understand what we're trying to do and in that conversation, convinced her. Convinced her that he was Jesus. Yet he was a son of God and he was coming to deliver a message. And how did she respond? She ran down the hill to tell everyone in the village, Told everybody right, Okay. So I thought that was a very, very powerful message, and one that I reflect on quite a bit.
Speaker 1:No, I think that's awesome. I mean Jesus speaking truth to go on both to Pharisees, the Jewish leaders, sadducees and then Herod Pilate, right, you would have no authority unless it were given you from above. He places himself under the governing authorities all the way to the point of death. For you and for me. Jesus spoke truth to power consistently. That's because he's God in the flesh, right, he had the courage to do it. So I think the same thing is true today, where families and pastors see things that are countered to God's word, that are leading away from human thriving, countered to God's laws that he embedded not just in the 10 commandments but his law that was written on every human heart. We know, we've been, we've been made to know what is good and how God created us to thrive.
Speaker 1:And maybe the last question I mean I think that the gender, the gender struggle today, the LGBTQ plus conversation is is one of the foremost conversations that we need to have, because I think one of the greatest lies is God did not create you. You know your mind and your emotions can say one thing, but your body says another thing. Now I have a lot of empathy for young people who are struggling because the assault on the mind and our worldview is so pervasive today. But God created us male and female In his image. He created us very distinctly that way and there's a major lie today from the seed of Satan that leads us to question our primary identity, one as a child of God and then two as we relate to the world, fearfully and wonderfully made as a male and a female. Any thoughts to that conversation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and two very particular ones. We have 42,000 kids in the Chandler district, second biggest district in the state. When I look at these kids, I see them all as CUSD kids. I don't care where they came from. Our job, like I said before, is to teach them to read, okay, not how to live their lives. That you know. The gender issues that we've been facing, I believe, are private family issues. Okay, it's between the kid, their parent and if they want to deal with the church, it's whatever counseling they go to to get help with this, and it's a very difficult issue. That's a parenting choice. Okay, they have the responsibility and the authority to do that not the school.
Speaker 2:We're not going to reach into the home and counsel the kid as school employees. It's not our job. There is no mandate, either in law or ethically, that we do that. When I said stay in our lane, I meant stay in our lane. We're neutral on that. We're just there to teach them. They show up to school. We teach them to read, that's it.
Speaker 1:That's good. That's good. I can't I love that. I can't be neutral on it, but I appreciate your comment on it. To be sure, as we get to speak as leaders into the home right, that is definitely the church's responsibility, as families care for families and leaders lead in the family. So thank you so much for your generosity of time. I'm praying for you. We need more Jesus followers in all of our public school districts. I thank you for engaging in the discourse, for not being fearful of it, for using your gifts to bless the next generation in the Chandler School District.
Speaker 1:And I'm praying too. You know I get to lead a private school. I'm praying for more school choice. I'm praying that as competition rises, all boats rise right, as we have a number of different schools there we didn't even get into. We're kind of the wild west of school choice here with ACSTO and the ESA, the tax credits, all of those types of things, and praying that all of that continues as we all grow up into Jesus and really everybody, I think, in leadership, whether you're at a Chandler School board or a board member or just a parent or a pastor, we all want the same thing.
Speaker 1:I pray For good to prevail over evil and for our kids to know they're loved and for them to grow up heart, body, mind, spirit to use their gifts to bless the next generation. You know human beings are hardwired, actually, by God to care about things beyond themselves. Right, we are created heart, body, mind, spirit and we care. You care the reason you're doing this. You care about the next generation, the following generation after that, growing up to be godly women and men. For the sake of the next generation that comes after them, we've got to stop thinking so individual, so time-bound, right now. We've got to think beyond us right now, and this is why we have to have these Jesus-centered conversations, centered in the truth of Jesus, how he created us to thrive this side of eternity. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. This is American Reformation Podcast Kurt. If people want to connect with you, how can they do so, brother? American Reformation Podcast Kurt. If people want to connect with you, how?
Speaker 2:can they do so? Brother, I can give you a private email, which will be KurtBorges11 at gmailcom. K-u-r-t-r-o-h-r-s-11 at gmailcom, and I do really appreciate dialogue. I want to commend you for stepping up. This is what I'm asking is the pastor to step up to show the moral leadership that's where it belongs in the home and in the church, not in the schools.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. This is the American Reformation podcast. Sharing is caring, like, subscribe, comment, wherever it is you take in these podcasts and we promise to have great conversations. You know there's a lot of Lutherans that listen to these podcasts. I know you don't share that, but we share this one thing Jesus is Lord and he reigns over all things and he's going to come back to make all things new and until that day comes, may he find his people faithful, proclaiming his word. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks, kurt, wonderful work.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you.