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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Living The Jesus Way - Unity and Courage with Pastor Matt Cario
What if your local church could rise above political divides and embrace every voice? Join us for a compelling conversation with Pastor Matt Cario, a visionary from Concordia University, Nebraska, who is actively championing reformation within the Lutheran Church. Pastor Cario shares his insightful perspectives on nurturing younger leaders and advocating for a less pastor-centric approach in church communities. By placing emphasis on unity, trust, and inclusivity, he envisions a future where the church becomes a beacon of hope and dialogue in a divided world.
Discover how gentleness and courage can transform leadership, as inspired by Jesus' teachings and the legacy of Martin Luther's Reformation. We delve into the quiet strength that gentleness offers leaders today, exploring the idea of "two kingdoms" and how Christians can navigate both spiritual and worldly realms. Our discussion with Pastor Cario reveals the importance of engaging in courageous conversations and the role of church and government leaders in executing justice, all while learning from Luther's multifaceted legacy.
Amidst the challenges of a postmodern culture, Pastor Cario and I discuss the evolving mission of the church and the importance of fostering authentic, truth-centered environments for younger generations. By focusing on humility, empathy, and genuine community interactions, we emphasize the church's potential to stay relevant and impactful. Tune in to learn about the significance of reformation, the nurturing of future leaders, and how living out the Gospel can unite and transform faith communities.
Welcome to the American Reformation podcast, tim Allman. Here Today I get the privilege of hanging out with a classmate of mine from Concordia, nebraska, back in 2004. This is Pastor Matt Cario. We're celebrating 20 years, graduating. I don't know, are we having a reunion or something like that coming up, matt? I don't know if I've even seen anything like that. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I went back like a year ago for a visit and, oh, it's so different.
Speaker 1:It's so different. Well, I'm going to be going back for a visit, probably with my son in the next year, to see if he wants to be a bulldog, play football there and all that kind of stuff. So it's good to be a bulldog. More than that, it's better to be a Jesus follower who's been blessed to be in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. This conversation is not always including folks in the LCMS, but today we're talking about discipleship, deep prayers for unity and trust within the church and our opening conversation.
Speaker 1:Just a little more about Matt. He's a pastor at Our Savior Lutheran Church in Tacoma, washington. He's been there eight years. He's approaching 20 years of marriage to his wife, meredith, and they have two young girls, ninth grader and a sixth grader and life is so, so good at Our Savior with Pastor Matt and a shout out too to Pastor Tim Bayer and their partnership in the gospel there and the whole team at Our Savior. This is going to be a fun conversation. So the opening question for American Reformation, matt, how are you praying for, as Lutherans? Right, reformation's a big deal in our vocabulary. How are you praying for Reformation in the American Christian church?
Speaker 2:Ah, man, you know what I pray for a lot is the local church. I'm just a local church guy. Everybody has something they're really passionate about and they're like this is what God is calling me to, and we need people called to everything, but I love the local church, particularly the church that I'm called to. That is something I'm always looking to, to pray for all the local churches, because that's where God does so much work in people's lives. I pray for raising up and making space with younger leaders. You mentioned, right, 20 years.
Speaker 2:We're in that middle career arc in our lives and so really praying about that, we're about the younger leaders. And who are we raising up? How is God working in their lives, and it's really cool to see how they just love Jesus, but they see him through some different lenses that are really beneficial for our church and the future and for our communities. And you know, the last thing I pray for is I and this is probably more, you know, I guess it could be all churches, but specifically in our context and the Lutheran church becoming less pastor-centric, and I don't mean that like let's demote pastors, but I would love if we talked about all the different ways you can serve the Lord more, because there's so many needs and there's so many different types of people in our churches that God is calling to do things, and the more we can make avenues for that, I think that just is. It's healthy for the body.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's absolutely necessary for the body. So tell me, when you say those young lenses, you're interacting with younger people not just as a dad, but as a discipleship pastor. What are some of those younger lenses as a Jesus follower that those of us who are in the middle or older stages of life should pay attention to?
Speaker 2:You know, every culture shift that happens across generations, we tend to focus on the negatives of that. I feel like that seems to be the way in our culture currently the way we evaluate things first is negative first, but there's also positives to that. I mean. One example, right. So our kids have kind of grown up in a generation of where every voice matters, right, like it doesn't matter what your view is. Every voice matters, right, like it doesn't matter what your view is. Every voice matters.
Speaker 2:And one of the cool, really beneficial lenses of that with the gospel is that our kids all believe they have a voice and they all believe it matters. And if their voice is for Jesus, like, it matters and they're not afraid to share it and their friends and their peers are not against it. I think growing up in the 80s, 90s, there was definitely a little more of certain voices matter more than others. And if you didn't have one of those certain perspectives or lenses, man, you know there was some. There was some different type of pressure on that, but I just see that though, man, like in our kids, like it's, it's really cool to watch.
Speaker 1:No, it really. It really is the church. The church is playing above. I don't know why my because of the season we're in, probably the the political climate in which we we live in, the church plays above the political fray. Today we set our minds and hearts on Christ, who reigns above.
Speaker 1:And when the rhetoric in culture gets so kind of toxic, divisive and I don't care on what extreme, whether it's left or right, and and the name calling, et cetera, I think a lot of our younger sensitive leaders are just like.
Speaker 1:There has to be a better. I mean, this is what I think there has to be a better way to speak truth to power and to receive correction, and it's the Jesus way which is centered in relationship, a depth of trust that should flow from the local church. I think the local church and hopefully catalyzed by a lot of our younger leaders growing up, the local church can have a unifying impact. Today we talk about unity on this, just holding society in general together, creating room for disagreeing agreeably and just discourse in general, like positing different ideas and weighing, you know, the philosopher's heart, which is, I think we kind of come under. I think of the Athenian model, right, I mean creating space to have differing ideas, and do we have any of those types of places in culture today? And I don't see them, other than the church potentially created space for that right Because it's centered in our identity in Jesus. Like then we can, it's game on right and so, yeah, any thoughts there, matt?
Speaker 2:Yeah, matt. Well, you talk about the Jesus way. I mean, you know, tim Keller really popularized that a lot with the third way and kind of that. What Jesus does constantly right, he is, he's not, he never takes sides. Jesus makes a way and I think it's such a great opportunity for the church.
Speaker 2:I actually think, looking back at COVID, that was a great opportunity for the church to start and to say we're going to take the Jesus way and it's probably not one of the other 97 opinions about what we should do, but Jesus and what's really significant about that, like theologically, is if Jesus is the way, the truth and the life as he says he is the way, the truth and the life as he says he is, then he has to be the one that makes a way for all to him.
Speaker 2:Right, it's not gonna, it can't just be. Here is this narrow way that we see and we agree upon. And the cool thing about Jesus is I'm not the same person. I was a year ago or three years ago or five years ago or 10 years ago, and if I met me 10 years ago, there's things I'd be like that's kind of cringy or I don't know that. I agree with that, but Jesus is there with us on that lifelong journey, the more that we can live that out and communicate that. That is just like gospel for your soul over a lifetime.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely Jesus. I like the third way. And this is just where healthy human thriving takes place. I've just started talking for the first time, and this morning. So here we go. It is. It is courage, it's centered in courage. I've just been listening and moving my body all morning and reading and okay, here we go, get the lips going. It takes courage on the one hand, uh, but not, not coward, you're not, not, not overwhelmingly arrogance, right?
Speaker 2:so I um, you stopped and that's all right. You know what everybody? Tim's had a long morning. It's really taken a toll on him and he'll be back at some point. So just stay tuned and enjoy the silence. Oh man, thank you.
Speaker 1:Oh man, oh man. Gee, that was the weirdest thing, matt, uh what happened my entire system just shut down and restarted. Wow, I even restarted my computer, like last week.
Speaker 2:Anyway, whatever, you are actually still running, you're just overwhelming it Way to go.
Speaker 1:I don't think that was it at all.
Speaker 2:I think it was the Holy.
Speaker 1:Spirit saying you got to start again here, so anyway, it's actually running. So, Adam, you can start here and I'm just going to talk about the middle way really quick and then turn it back to you. So I love that, matt, the middle way. The middle way is the combination between courage not arrogance and then humility, which leads us into team. I've done a lot of listening to some social scientists and actually have done some behavioral analysis myself, and we need the balance of aggressive and passive traits at the same time. This is a Harrison behavioral assessment tool that I've used and a lot of times in the church.
Speaker 1:We're overly passive and pastors can be overly passive, and that's actually unattractive. That's seen by many as kind of weak. We don't have a voice. But you can also go to the other extreme and become narcissistic, and we obviously don't want to live there either. So can we as the people of God and this is individually and collectively present this healthy, confident, courageous voice that's seated with great, great humility, with arms open wide to people who may have differing views and be at different places, on their respective journey with one another and with God. Any thoughts about that? That way, that kind of third way that Keller talks about?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, you, what you described about you know, needing courage but also needing, like, a quiet confidence. With that, we actually have that in the Holy Spirit that lives in us. I mean this is what gentleness is and the fruit of the spirit and it's gentleness is just, it's that, it's that strength that you don't have to flex about, it's knowing, it's having that confidence of knowing that Jesus does reign, that I don't need to worry about some of these big things, knowing that God is powerful, knowing that he can be trusted, and knowing it will work out, but not having to force it, not having to make it always happen. And so I just, you know, pressing into for me like that was something you know, learning about gentleness as a leader and as a Jesus follower was really. It gave language to that feeling of how do I go in this and it's like, oh, that makes sense. It's that quiet strength, it's that restrained, controlled strength.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, that was the way of Jesus, right, the God who had every right to choose the power position and yet humble himself to the point of death and a cross. And out of that quiet confidence he drew by the Spirit's power and started the greatest movement the world has ever known in the local church. People who were willing to courageously speak what was true, as they had come to know it in the person and work of Jesus, and live out then the way of Jesus with arms open wide, courageously, even going to their deaths on behalf of the cause of Jesus. Like we need courageously, even going to their deaths on behalf of the cause of Jesus. We need that sort of confidence and humility, that gentleness today and what it does to the human brain too talking just brain science is it allows us to think about what we're going to say before we say it and not get triggered one way or another to keep our head about us, to speak the way of Jesus.
Speaker 1:As you look at a guy like Martin Luther let's talk about Luther a bit. Whenever you hear the word reformation you think if you've got any kind of church history background, you think of Martin Luther, and I think he kind of had that. People may not call him gentle all the time, that may not be the adjective that's used for Luther all the time, but he had the ability to write clearly, to speak clearly and to draw people together and to give the wider church the courage to speak truth to power, truth to Rome, truth to works, righteousness, etc. So what parts of Luther's Reformation story do you think we need to double down on today? Matt?
Speaker 2:So what parts of Luther's Reformation story do you think we need to double down on today? Matt oh man, number two kingdoms. So just understanding what is God's kingdom and how do we live with a foot in that and a foot in the worldly kingdom, I think that brings it, just brings clarity to like what we need to focus on, what we need to have confidence in and what we can trust and and also what we, what we should worry about. You know I know some I say we know Jesus speaks of that, but you know it does help, kind of help manage our where we focus on someone. That and then our neighbor. I think we, if we focus on our neighbors and I justify neighbors is whoever's along our way, whoever we're alongside in life but just having that long focus on our neighbors, I you know it's something we're personally just passionate about in our house, that we have to be part of our neighbors' lives and it doesn't always mean huh, no, yeah, keep going, keep going.
Speaker 2:It doesn't always mean yeah, no, it's really important, and I think for leaders it just it becomes one of those activities or choices that gives you a foundation, Like it just keeps you grounded in reality. Like it just keeps you grounded in reality and it's amazing what God just does through that time and time again.
Speaker 1:Well, let's merge both of those. If we're connected to our neighbor, our neighbor may have a different understanding, different worldview, different political allegiances etc. And do we meet them as a neighbor and then do we develop conversations, a relationship of trust, so that we can, where there may be opportunities to learn and grow, we can have the courageous conversation. You talk about two kingdoms, though. For those that maybe have not heard of Luther's two kingdoms, what is like a, a confirmation level, we'll go one to 202 kind of definition of two kingdoms. Matt, how does it apply to your work as a pastor?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, essentially it's right. It's just that there's a kingdom of God that is active and reigning Ever since Jesus dies on the cross. It's just expanding, and that is the true kingdom. That is the real kingdom. There's the kingdoms of the world, and it's always changing right. There's always a fight over who's in charge of the kingdom of the world, and yet, until Jesus returns, we are in both kingdoms. We live simultaneously, and so it's what Paul talks about when he says right, like you know, we're aliens here. We are not natives in that way that we belong to the Lord, we belong to the kingdom of heaven. Yet we live in this world, and it helps us keep that focus a little bit of what we should care most about.
Speaker 1:How does God work, mainly in the kingdoms of this world? How does he execute his justice? And it's through government right. It's through good government, and government that promotes the office of mother and father, government that rewards the good right According to laws both written and on our hearts, and it punishes the evil. What is the role, though, of leaders today? I think this is one of the confusing and challenging opportunities for us as leaders in the church.
Speaker 1:Luther did not shy away from talking against government, and he actually said some things on, and this is not the shining Luther moment on the Jews and their lies. He was actually calling for government to kind of move in a controlling direction in that regard, and we don't need to go deep there. That's one of kind of the black eyes, I think, in Lutheranism today, but we still have a role in speaking. If the government is not supporting adequately the office of mother and father, we need to speak, the church needs to speak Now. The way we speak is obviously seasoned with love and clarity, but it better be courageous. So any thoughts about how the church and even leaders, pastors, speak, because and I'm just speaking from experience right now I get pulled in a number of different directions as it relates to this, and I can't speak about candidates, but I can speak about topics when the Bible speaks very, very clearly. We have to speak right, so any any other thoughts there, matt?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that, uh, I think you're you kind of hit it on the head there, man. It's speaking about topics, um, that the Bible clearly speaks to is, uh, it's we have to do it, um, and we should do it. I mean, we, we are, we are lovers of truth, right, we want to share the truth, and so I think that those are areas that we can speak in. So the challenge, I think, for the church is often, I think, people come to pastors like you, right, like you have people that email you and say, hey, we need to do this petition. Hey, we need to talk about this from the pulpit. Hey, we need a view on this.
Speaker 2:I think it's something that every Christian needs to spend a lot more time in of how do I speak about that, and not just well, here's what my pastor said and that's what I say. I think the wrestling of how do I speak truth in challenging contexts is an important process for Christians to wrestle through, for Christians to wrestle through, and that changes the way they talk to others about it. It helps it be well-reasoned, it personalizes it so that it's contextual, and that's when that's a welcome conversation, more so than hey, check out this two-minute sermon clip that my pastor rips on this, or you?
Speaker 1:know, the reason I'm laughing is I had a lady, precious lady, come up and say this happens like every week. You got to listen to this pastor talk about this topic and hopefully that can inspire you know. So, okay, that's all right. But I think you're exactly right Getting down to personal responsibility, elevating the priesthood, like you are all. First, peter, right, you are all a priest. You're called to bring light to dark places. This is the role of the church. Yes, leaders must speak to model kind of not only what we say but how we can say it. But then the Holy Spirit fills all of the baptized and so, um, if you, I'd love to have this, I'd love to have people like beating down my door to set up spaces to talk about the two kingdoms. We actually did a, a faith and politics two week kind of seminar class where we talked about the two kingdoms, talked about good public discourse, talked about the role of the government and the church's role and God's role, kind of overseeing both the office of the church and the role of government in this culture, and people found that helpful.
Speaker 1:My struggle is I think we live in echo chambers Because there's a lot of people in the middle that are looking at it like wow, you really are passionate about that topic. Wow, you're really passionate. They're like. They're like pull them. Most people are right in the middle, like saying I would just like to go about my life, you know. But could they have a posture of curiosity so that they're if? If they're in the middle, they have the curiosity to say what does God's word say about this and how should I speak about what God's word says about this? Anything more there, matt?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, most people don't live on the edges right. Most people don't have all of their views represented by a commentary voice out there. People are complicated. I mean we just are. We have all sorts of beliefs and experiences in our country and, as people that are conflicting, like they don't, you know, seem like they should go together. But they do because should go together, but they do because, apart from Christ, we experience the brokenness of sin in our lives and around us and it can be disorienting in that, and so having healthy discourse, I think, is so significant. You know, there's a while back, man, I heard. You know, like you listen to a podcast and like you just go through it but you don't really remember anything.
Speaker 1:But I heard a lot of people have had that experience on this one, but nonetheless, yeah they already turned out.
Speaker 2:They missed that. They don't even get to that comment today.
Speaker 1:But tell me about your experience with that, though?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no man today, but, um, tell me about your experience with that though. Yeah, no man, I there. I forget the woman's name, but she was, um, she was sharing, and she said you know, my nobody that has a different view than me is ever going to change their mind unless I spend time with them. It just won't. It's a long-term relationship, like you got to, and it's just that reminder, like in politics and faith and life, and you know neighborhood business. Nobody's going to change their mind unless you spend time with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what can we actually control when it gets right down to it? We're going to land this plane, but you should vote, you should be a good citizen, but then what can you ultimately control? It's your family. It's working out into your friend group, it's working to be a wonderful neighbor. That's substantial.
Speaker 1:If everybody just focused on what is within our spheres of influence, right, that we can actually influence, how much better and we work toward it selflessly, sacrificially how much better would the witness of the church be and I have to say this to my congregation President Trump gets elected. He's not the Savior. We're still going to have a lot of struggles in the United States and just in the human experience, there is one Savior. His name is Jesus and he's got a mission to get all of his kids back and the audacity that he wants to use the local church word and sacrament people be in the hands and feet of Jesus to to get his kids back, to elevate them above Metanoia, where Christ is like that's, that's it, that's it, no, no one. Kingdoms rise, kingdoms fall. Could the United States of America fall because of voting and bad choices we make? Could the blessing of God, if you will kind of move away and when we talk blessing right, I think maybe we've been focused on the idols of this age, our remarkable affluence in the United States of America and we've made gods out of so many different things. Like this is where pastors need to be speaking. If a certain group gets elected, like it could actually be the death of many people spiritually right who say, oh, now that's it. No, we need a collective repentance to take place throughout the church to smash the idols of this age.
Speaker 1:I was reading through sorry to just go on a little rant here, but I was reading through 1 and 2 Kings. Just recently this guy was around. He had a reign but he was an evil king. He had lots of idols, the residual damage in the kingdom, be it Israel or Judah, it was good, it was bad, et cetera. Kingdoms rise, kingdoms fall. The word of the Lord stands forever. Like we have to keep people focused on the main thing because we are prone to drift. We're drifters as human beings and idle factory makers. So any responses to that as we close, kind of the two kingdom conversation? Matt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, I just I encourage people to get close to these things, like not when it comes to the discussion of the kingdoms and the things going on in the world. Press into it Like don't talk about it from afar, you know, consider it, wrestle with it, focus on the gospel, stay rooted, stay centered on Christ. At the end of the day, I mean, it doesn't matter who gets elected, as far as where my life is found, it doesn't change that Jesus rose from the dead. It's not going to change the relationships with my family and my love for them. It's not going to change that the Holy Spirit animates God's love in me and everyone else that follows him and trusts him. And we'll do the same thing in four years.
Speaker 1:That's right Circle back. It always comes around, hey. So let's talk about your ministry story a little bit. Tell us why you do what you do, how you were led to do what you do. This is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. We care about leadership development like big time and so, yeah, tell your leadership story and how you even got into our Savior yeah, man I.
Speaker 2:So I started out, uh, I don't, you know, I grew up in a like pretty normal home, like normal 80s, 90s. Kids right, played sports, stayed out till the street lights came on, just, uh, all of that stuff and uh, you know, like I would describe our family is, my parents knew about Jesus, but we didn't do anything about Jesus and and so we, we just didn't go to church much and it really it just wasn't something we, we really was part of our lives. But we had. We had a neighbor, a non-denominational pastor, and their family loved us just in all the gentle ways we've talked about today, like they were just present, they were there, they invited us.
Speaker 2:We never ended up going to church there ever, yet God used them in a really great way to get his kids back. We ended up in a school that was private. My parents were like yeah, we need to check that out. It ended up being a Lutheran school and I was like that's great. I don't know what that means, but I did like tell my mom, I remember telling my parents after a few weeks of going there, I was like we got to start going to church. Like they take church and Sunday school attendance every week and I'm not going to make it socially in this place if I say neither every week when they take attendance.
Speaker 1:And uh yeah.
Speaker 2:So we started going and, um, you know, god just brought some leaders in our lives, really, really just kind of um, I don't know change. It changed us. Um had a great youth ministry experience, um it was. We just so happened to be at a church. They have I did actually recall this. I had to recall this from one of the a worker there I know recently for a sermon. They've spent over like $800,000 to send almost 100 pastors and DCEs and teachers out into the field.
Speaker 1:What what church is this, yeah, it's. Trinity Klein.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. So, yeah, and it all started with one guy that said I'm gonna start a fund for this and this needs to like, this is important, um, and so over. Who was that? Oh man, now you're pushing me.
Speaker 1:Uh, no, this is so good like because, no, you know, it's okay he should be remembered, but what he did, the legacy is not in who he is, but in the people that he passed on the gospel to and sent out into the mission field, like it's. It's almost fantastic. I would love, in like two, three generations, if people said there was a season where a number of different people, young and old, were like mobilized for ministry. What's that guy's name? Like nobody remembers your name. I think that's fantastic, but it's okay If you remember his name. That's cool too, matt, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, it's Herman Schaefer. That it's Herman Schaefer. That's who it was. There we go, all right, you pulled it. Well, I was thinking about man. There were two guys, adolph Waksman and Herman Schaefer were the two guys that, like? They were all about something.
Speaker 2:Adolph Waksman, I believe, was for the school, though at that place, so, good, yeah, but anyway, I just was really fortunate and blessed and had great leaders around me and leading me and supporting me and encouraging, and so I went to Concordia, nebraska, we met there, I was in the DCE program and love it, and love it you know, I think what something. I ended up going through the S&P process a few years ago and so I've been doing pastoral ministry since I moved here in Washington. But man, I just I love the local church, love that, I love the congregation Right, the local church, love that, I love the congregation right. I just think loving your church as the local congregation changes so much about how you do ministry.
Speaker 1:No, I agree. So yeah, go off a little bit on our Savior. What do you love about the context you're in right now?
Speaker 2:Oh, man, it is I. First I would just say that any church that my kids love, I love, amen, and that's just. That is not a theological statement, but just that's the heart of a father Like I want my kids to love Jesus. And if they love Jesus here and they feel loved in healthy ways, like it's all I want, well done For them. But if you pinpoint it right, it is.
Speaker 2:We have a really great expression of the unity in Christ.
Speaker 2:You know, something you might wonder about the Northwest is there might be some differing perspectives from many LCMS areas and we do have different all sorts of perspectives in our congregation and political thoughts and all of that. But it's really there's a really strong unity in Jesus and you know we can disagree about all sorts of things and it's not that big of a deal. We can get over hurts, we can forgive, we can move forward together because of Jesus and I love the unity in that and I love the way it's lived out. Right, it's not something we say. And if you were to ask our church something we say, and if, if you were to ask our church, like if you asked our church, if, if that's, you know, the hallmark of our church. They'd be like no, that's our mission statement. Love God, love people, live like Jesus. They'd be like that's what we're about, but just as a pastor looking, looking in on it, like that is so cool that they value being the people of God more than being a person with opinions.
Speaker 1:That's really good. A lot of times we talk unity and we think it's a soft trait, right, and there is a softness and a gentleness to it because it requires us to kind of open ourselves up to differing opinions. But it was and I think still the fuel for the mission of God. I mean Jesus' last words in John's gospel, in the high priestly prayer. I mean it is a prayer for unity. He's been very honest with the disciples about what's going to happen. They're going to hate you, the world. Some are going to think that they're doing a service to God when they persecute and put you to death.
Speaker 1:In this world. You will have tribulation, but have great courage. I've overcome the world and now this is eternal life. Verse three that they know you, the one true God. This is John 17,.
Speaker 1:Verse three.
Speaker 1:And me, the one who has been sent, jesus, the Son of God.
Speaker 1:And then, as you sent me, father this is verse 18 of the High Priestly Prayer as you sent me into the world, so I am sending them, and the world will know us, father, by the way they love one another, by their unity around the gospel and the clear proclamation of what I've done and the clear proclamation that leads toward an active, robust, humble-filled love, right, this robust agape type of love that they would see us caring for one another deeply through the ups and downs of life.
Speaker 1:This kind of moves into the discipleship conversation. A lot of times we may pit discipleship and evangelism almost against one another, the kind of sending nature of the church against kind of the internal focus nature of the church. I see it's two sides of the same coin, that when we love and care for one another, when we grow deeper in love with the word of God and the way of Jesus, that is the fuel for evangelism. Discipleship, deep love for one another, fuels our love for the world, those who are far from God. Any thoughts about discipleship, how you define it and how it connects to mission Matt?
Speaker 2:Oh man it. You mentioned evangelism, discipleship. They are, they have the same engine. I think you actually get both. I don't think they're. You know, I think it's really hard to just get one of them. One of them Agree. So everything, though, it is just that centering on Jesus, right, it's centered on Christ, and that's I mean. I think what we forget in discipleship is that the gospel is still the power of that. It's not. Sometimes we think, right, the gospel is the good news that we bring to Christ, that brings us to Christ and draws us to him and connects us to him, and then we've got to figure it out. And no, the gospel is the source of life each and every day, and so, in all that we do, in all that we teach, in all that we preach, it's the gospel, right, it's Jesus Christ alone and being centered on him that fuels everything else. And so I, you know, when we talk here about discipleship, we talk a lot about it is centered on Christ and clothed in Christ.
Speaker 1:That's good. I love that. So you guys have a pretty tight kind of mission statement and kind of focus for your ministry. What are you inviting every follower of Jesus at Our Savior to be about? Matt?
Speaker 2:Oh, man, we want people to love God, love people, live like Jesus. But what we I mean specifically what we do with that is we want people to worship together. We want them to connect in a smaller group of some sort, to be around the word of God together with others, to have that community that's based in the gospel and then serving. We're very focused on our community and not so much of like man. We need to be that incredible community church. Right, it's not. We want to show you know, here's the stats and look at all we've done. Right, it's not anything of that. It is.
Speaker 2:We want to love our community and our community has needs. There are things that we can do and in our little part of, in corner of the kingdom here, we want to do those things and be faithful in that. And so outreach. You know that that type of we're going to, we're going to serve and not expect anything in return. It's something that we've really, really emphasized a lot. But, yeah, those are. That's good In some ways. I mean, honestly, we're not like an innovative church. We just have Jesus at the center and try to keep him there.
Speaker 1:Well, what you stated, the three invitations from there. Well, what you stated, the three invitations it is exactly what. Like most every church I don't care if you're Lutheran, non-denom like there are three things and it really orients. This is a shout out to Dr Detlef Schultz in his book Mission from the Cross he's got. He uses the flower metaphor, like the ecclesia is right there in the middle and he has four different activities and he uses the Latin words to make it sound like super. But it's the liturgy, you know it's, it's the liturgia, that kind of thing. And then there's the, the mercy or the martyrdom. Work Right, the, the, the witness work out in the world. Work right, the witness work out in the world. And that is a byproduct of our service, our sending being light out into the community. But we're always doing that with fellowship, with deep care for one another.
Speaker 1:The diakona, the service for the cleaning tables, taking care, waiting on tables, from Acts, chapter six, so that the preaching of the word could continue to go, go forth Like this is your three things. Or if you say there's, maybe you could add maybe this robust witness, like if, if you were to say church, like small group worship service, and then you could have a diagram that says like all of this is in service of the sending of the spirit through the body of Christ out into the world. The world would see a group of people that deeply love one another and live the Jesus way, like it always fuels. It always fuels a mission. So if people let me make one final comment If people think this is like you've sold out to church growth movement, I could make, as I've just done right now, the case that this is what the early church did.
Speaker 1:They continued to gather together temple courts, house to house the Acts chapter 2 model. They ate together, they fellowshiped with one another and then they went out and proclaimed the gospel. Young and old and all different types of people were active in proclaiming the gospel, fueled by the Holy Spirit. This is simply the way of Jesus connected to the church and we see that model in Acts. Anything more to say there, matt?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can pick whatever model you want, right? Sure, yeah, and there's all sorts of ways to do it. There's not one way in the church to do things. And that's beautiful, that's great. I love that. There's more than one way to minister to people and spread the gospel, but it no matter what it is it all comes back to is it rooted in Christ and clothed in Christ? And, and that's it. If people are asking like, hey, so what's the answer? That's the answer Rooted in Christ, clothed in Christ, like, if you don't have that and we've all experienced that in churches that we've been part of at times of like, well, we say we're about these things, but they don't seem to work, or we don't really seem to be about them, or they look good on the wall or on paper, and if it's rooted in Christ and clothed in Christ, that's it. That's all that happened in the early church.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, that's exactly right and it had a multiplying effect as it went forward. I mean, I'm going to double down and you're less pastor-centric. There's no one. You don't have to call it small groups or whatever, but are you raising up other leaders, other proclaimers, and identifying those that are teachers in your midst that can share the discipleship opportunity that you have? If Jesus only had three, and then 12, and then 70, and we know, sociologically, a human being can only have really deep relationships with a hundred people, like a deep, deep relationship, who are we to think that we can disciple congregations of five, six, you know, 2000,. A lot of our congregations just stay at that size because that's the ability of the pastor to disciple. But if you said, yeah, I can disciple this group of folks who are leading, but I'm going to disciple them toward something, toward ascending, toward a leadership responsibility, and I don't care in the meantime, whatever you call the gathering, the influence that that leader has over the next group. We just choose to call it small groups, smaller faith communities who are deepening their love for one another, centered in the word, and going out on mission to make him known in their various vocations. That's, that's it. So anyway, matt, I love that. I love that conversation.
Speaker 1:Last last talking point, you were a DCE that evolved into a pastor. That's a normal progression, I think, for a lot of younger leaders, and that's not a slight to those that are lifetime kind of youth pastors DCEs in our context, directors of Christian education, if you're wondering what that acronym means. How has youth ministry, though, changed? And I'm asking this on the heels of just completing the book the Anxious Generation, which, when you start talking about, we always look at the negative things. There are some struggles of being a young person today that you and I didn't have when we were growing up in the 80s and 90s. It's very different. So let's talk about casting vision for discipling the next Jan as we close here, matt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I actually have one. I feel like I have one of the best opportunities as a pastor. I still get to do a lot of DCE type stuff and I just get to live in both worlds. I have a foot in both kingdoms, if we want to keep the kingdom metaphor going. But it's really cool to walk alongside. I walk alongside families more now, but, I mentioned earlier, teens definitely have the every voice matters context, which is totally different. But teens also live in a lot in many multiple contexts.
Speaker 2:Right, it's not just like home, school, church, they've got extracurriculars, they've got digital. It's amazing to me, like in our teenagers in our house, how many people they know in different spaces. Right, like and just in our community. Like, I'm like, how do you know those? How do you know those kids Like, oh well, they're friends with this person or they go to church with this person or they've got, I mean, their networking ability, is it? It's wild. You know, I'm like, I think about it, I'm not, I'm not as extroverted as as a lot, and so I'm like, why are you talking to those people? Like, let's lead a quiet life and and get home, but that's, that's really something significant with them, but their challenge is so much, with all that exposure, it's the information overload.
Speaker 2:It's not about finding information, it's about using it. It's about figuring out what truth actually is. Figuring out what truth actually is Figuring out how do I use this information? The internet's great, but I think for people like you and I, people of the age of you and I, like in our 40s, when we apply the way we think and grew up thinking and were taught to think to this context, there are so many things that we think through and process through about what we might read or consume on the Internet, right Like there's just I mean, we had to do like bibliographies and all sorts of fact checking and encyclopedias, all that stuff, and we just there's a different discipline to that and that's something that I I see in our younger generation, that they struggle with is developing how do I distinguish truth? I know you talk to any of our teachers that teach young people and they'll talk about. It's not about memorizing stuff anymore, it's about how do you distinguish the truth. How do you use the information that's at your disposal?
Speaker 1:Well, no, let's pause on that. How does the Bible I mean the source of truth that points us to truth and flesh how does that dynamic? Potentially, when you've got so many different perspectives, you can look up so many different perspectives on Jesus, on the Bible, how the Bible came together and how have you tried to help people? Because I think our apologetic I guess this is a question our apologetic today is different than it was, um, when we were growing up. Anything more to say there, matt?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, man, our apologetics, so different, right, Like, uh, back in, you know, the back in the last century. Uh, the you know the big push was right. You got to know more facts and you're going to. This is how you win an argument or win a discussion or a debate. And faith, really the discussion, the collision of faith or theologies or philosophies that's where it lived was in the academic. The collision of face or theologies or philosophies that's where it lived was in the academic. But it's shifted, it's moved now into a realm that's. You know, we have to be a little, you know, have both brains working, the left and the right brain on it. We can't just be on. Here's all the facts.
Speaker 2:But you know, I think it comes back to you know what Paul writes. You know, like, what is, what are all these gifts if I don't have love, right? What is all the reason, all the talents, if I don't have the love of God? And I think that's something our culture has shifted to, to being a little more holistic in the way we process information and think about truth. It's different, but I don't know that I would label it a bad thing. I think it challenges us to say not just what is the truth. But how does the truth change me? How does the truth of the gospel change my heart and my life? And not so I can be glorious, not that I can be perfected, but how is Jesus alive in me each and every day? I think that's something our world today is going to become more open to, and I'm pretty I don't know I'm pretty excited about the future of the church. I'm not really, you know, the church is done Like we had our glory day, that's. I just don't live there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's good, that's an awful place to live, so never live there.
Speaker 1:You gotta have a hope. It's a fuel for our work now and obviously, into the day that Jesus returns to make all things new. I think in the postmodern context to just add a little bit of my thoughts. In the postmodern context it has some pluses and minuses and you can say there may be a revert back to a pre-modern context today, but I'll just hold on post-modernity being like firmly entrenched.
Speaker 1:What is truth? And if we're totally trying to argue and engage our thinking system but we're arguing setting off our feeling system, we're going to totally, totally miss it feeling system. We're going to totally, totally miss it. And so can our young people look at the church and the cause. You can be right in all the wrong ways, will they? Will they look at the way we talk about truth and experience? Wow, I could belong there with that group of people because they're actively wrestling.
Speaker 1:There's a, there's a humility to even the way they talk about things they firmly believe in, because it's not them who have grasped it, it's God who has grasped them. I mean, this is just our good passive faith, theology. And now we're on the journey and a lot of people kind of make fun of that language journey, but it is helpful. I'm growing up into Jesus and I'm learning what really really matters, the things that are core to me, my values as a follower of Jesus. At the top of that, it must be love. It must be God's desire to not label our enemies as our enemies. There's only one enemy. He's Satan, and God's desire through us is that all of his kids would give back I say that often and I just think that has to be the humble mindset today and to engage the feeling center before the thinking center. Anything more to add to that, matt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, I think in the apologetic side, I think we also need to be patient with it in a way we haven't in the past. I think we've. You know, the way we've approached in the past is you just need to know the right answers. And if you have the right answers you'll logically conclude this is the truth and Jesus is the way, and Jesus is the way. I think that I think it's a little insulting to the complexity and details and way.
Speaker 2:Years ago, apologetics was about convincing people that what they had grown up with and been told was the truth actually is still the truth. And now you know you're moving into a space. I think living in the Pacific Northwest has a little bit of a glimpse into this, more so than some other areas of the country where I think we're past the point up here where the majority is in a I'm hurt by the church type of thing, into a I just don't know Like I think we're a couple generations into being de-churched and so there's not even a foundation to say here's why that was right, Right, and if you have that foundation, like that foundation was attached in those generations' lives, it was, you know, they had parents, grandparents connected in that. But you know, here I would say it's less likely to have a family legacy of faith. And so there's just curiosity, there's confusion, but there's openness, right, I just don't know about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're connecting on a different level.
Speaker 1:You are, and I think that was the call of the early church, especially as they moved into the Gentile waters. Right yeah, let me tell you about this unknown God Gentile waters, right yeah, let me tell you about this unknown God. Go ahead, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean, you're exactly right. Like that you read Acts and you're like this doesn't look anything like what I think I'm experiencing now and I maybe I chuckle at it a little bit, but 15 years ago there was that big movement in the church of we got to get back to being like the early church and it's like this is what the early church is. It's in different cultures, it's in places where the Lord isn't known and that's where the Lord sends us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember, wasn't it the Gentile conversion? I think it's Peter that goes. And hey, we were baptized. How were you baptized? Oh, it was John's baptism. We'd not even heard there was this baptism in the Holy Spirit, in the name of the triune God.
Speaker 1:Well, let me tell you about that. I mean, it's that sort of clarity, but there's a kindness to it. And, uh, every single week and we're we're probably a half a generation, not a full generation here and cause we still have some Midwest influences in in the Arizona context, people that have multi-generation Lutherans et cetera. So they have certain expectations. But we're also influenced by a lot of a lot of pre-Christians, a lot of folks, younger people. We have this is wild in our school, matt. So we have about 500 kids preschool through kind of a hybrid high school model, 500 kids on our campus Monday through Friday and 100 of them state they don't have a church. So we have, and they got younger parents too. Probably early thirties is the average age Like that's a prime mission field for starting just a normal conversation around around Jesus, around life, just getting to know them.
Speaker 1:And we've got a great strategy, led by one of our discipleship pastors, to like let's, let's be about that and and not not going out trying to argue, just going out and love to get to know the person and when the Holy Spirit opens the door, which he will, you give a reason for the hope that you have, but do so with respect, with kindness and respect. I think is what Peter says right Is there's a humility to the way we talk about what is truth. So this has been so much fun. Last question I had one more, so this has been so much fun. Last question I had one more. I just want to close with this Favorite Jesus story in the Bible and why.
Speaker 2:Matt, Simple man, Prodigal son, Love the lost son. I just think it's applicable to everybody. I think that the handles in that are ones that anybody can grasp. Everybody has a story about their father, whether they, you know, had this really rich relationship or they never knew their father. Everybody gets that Like that is something just in our design. Like that is something just in our design. And the way the father is towards both sons, which I feel like I can be both sons in the same day, it's so graceful, right it is. It's like the purest illustration of grace that just connects to every heart. I know Like there's even the most hardened bitter person could hear that and be like I don't believe any of it. Blah, blah, blah, blah. But it talks about something that I know, that I want in my life and I wish I had. I just think it's such a beautiful, beautiful story. So yeah.
Speaker 2:What about you? What's your favorite?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I've doubled down on that too. I mean, we need to party when lost kids come back home, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's my favorite part. And to celebrate them and to reject the older son tendency, that's my favorite story. Well, the whole book is fantastic. The life story has been Luke 10 for me Jesus sending out, after sending out the 12, sending out the 70, with his authority to cast out demons, to care for the poor and to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. And they come back and they kind of have this arrogant kind of posture toward Jesus. They want to tell Jesus all the amazing things they did, which were amazing to be sure. But then he says don't rejoice in that, rejoice that your names are written in the kingdom.
Speaker 1:I think there's so many like leadership lessons, humility, like you get to be a part of this thing, but don't think it's about you or you're my power of strength, this is all me and this is all fueled by my authority, which has been given from heaven to you. So mind your role, creature rather than, rather than. You're not the creator, I'm the, I'm the author of all things and yet you get to play a small part in my big story. So probably Luke 10 is one of my favorite. But, man, it's hard to, it's hard to top the posture, the, the heart of the lost son, and really the entire chapter, which is Luke 15, the lost coin and the lost sheep, et cetera. So this has been so much fun.
Speaker 1:That's why this podcast exists in the ULC exists. God has a mission to get all of his kids back and the church has to play her role in, in where reformation needs to take place, where listening, humility need to take place for challenging conversations need to take place. Leaders need to step into that and do so with the kindness and gentleness of Jesus. Matt, if people want to connect with you, how can they do?
Speaker 2:so, pastor Matt oslccom, I exist on social but I'm at Matt Cario but I don't know. I'm losing my social esteem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too. I never really had it, to be quite honest, but nonetheless it's a good day going. Make it a great day. Jesus loves you. His mission is out in front of you Raise up the next generation of Jesus followers to bring his love, his word, his sacrament to a dark and dying world. The days are too short to do anything other than that. Thanks so much for hanging with me today, matt. You're a blessing.