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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Exploring The Book of Mark's Controversial Ending with Rev. Dr. David Lewis
Reverend Dr. David Lewis from Concordia Seminary joins us to unravel the mysteries of the Gospel of Mark's controversial ending. Discover how this ancient text invites us into a deeper understanding of Jesus and challenges us to embrace authenticity and community in our faith journey. As we navigate the complexities of a post-Christian world, we explore the pressing need for church leaders to preserve authentic Lutheranism while creatively engaging with their communities, striking a pivotal balance between tradition and innovation.
We also venture into the fascinating world of film analysis and theology, examining how modern cinema, like "Guardians of the Galaxy," portrays Christ figures that resonate with today's audiences. Films become a compelling bridge to discuss faith with outsiders, as illustrated by our discussion on the upcoming horror film "Wretch Like Me," which weaves gospel messages into its narrative artfully. This exploration demonstrates the power of storytelling in film to make spiritual themes accessible and impactful, drawing connections to biblical exorcism accounts to justify the genre's use.
Our conversation concludes with an exploration of communal storytelling and the enduring power of the word in Christian belief. Delve into the significance of experiencing gospel narratives collectively, akin to watching a movie in a theater, enhancing understanding and emotional connection. We reflect on the transformative potential of suspended endings in literature, like those in the Gospel of Mark and notable ancient texts, that invite deeper engagement with the narrative. The episode underscores the inclusive message of Christ that transcends traditional divisions, offering hope and a call to action for today's believers.
Welcome to the American Reformation podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray. The joy of Jesus is your strength wherever you're at, whether you're listening to this podcast, getting ready for an awesome day of service for the sake of expanding the gospel of Jesus Christ, or you're closing out your day on a drive. Wherever it is, I hope this conversation today gives you a lot of joy and a lot of insight into who Jesus is, how much he loves you, how much he loves the world.
Speaker 1:Today I get to hang out with one of my professors from Concordia Seminary in St Louis, reverend Dr David Lewis, and he's been an exegetical professor at Concordia Seminary now for just about 21 years and he was a parish pastor in Northern California before that and his STM was in let's see if I get this right. His STM was in the ending of Mark, which is what we're going to be talking about today A little bit of controversy on these handful of verses at the end of Mark's gospel. And then he talked about, wrote about for his PhD, purity in the gospel of Mark. So this man I remember Dr Lewis, being in your class and I remember just the joy of Jesus in you as you opened up the scriptures to us and before we get going, I just want to say thank you for forming me and so many pastors in the LCMS over the years. Brother, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2:You're very welcome. Yeah it's a joy.
Speaker 1:So open it, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2:I love the scriptures, and in particular because they point us to Jesus. That's it, yeah, that is it.
Speaker 1:So standard opening question, Dr Lewis, on this podcast, been doing it now for a couple of years or so and how are you praying as you look at the wider Christian church, your perspective, training next gen of servant leaders in the church? How are you praying for reformation, especially in kind of the post Christian day and age in which we find ourselves?
Speaker 2:Well, at this time I'm the director of the Master of Divinity program and the Residential Alternate Route program, so I'm the guy who oversees you might say shepherds or students through those programs. Thank you, and I'm aware that the world is not the same. When I was a boy back in the 60s, 70s, when you could pretty much assume denominational loyalty, most people went to the church that they went to, you might say, regardless of the pastor. Pastors could expect that loyalty. And I know now we're in a different age where you might say us older folks have that loyalty. But I know a lot of younger people are either going to go to the churches that they think are authentic I'm thinking of my own kids now In other words, they want it to be real, they want the pastor to believe, they want the people to believe, they want that sense of community, or they just stop going all together.
Speaker 2:And so I pray for our students here, knowing the unique challenge that they face in this time and place First, that they would be faithful to the gospel of Jesus, but also that they would find creative ways to communicate that gospel. In this day and age, my fear is that we could simply circle the wagons and maintain our sort of authentic Lutheranism, but at the expense of reaching out to our neighbor. And so I pray for my students that they would be faithful to the gospel but also ready to take risks and to reach out to our neighbors who don't know with the saving message about Jesus Christ. I don't know if you remember when you were a student, but one of my passions is film analysis and, in particular, looking for theological motifs in film and, in particular, portrayals of Christ figures in film. And one reason I like this is because I love Jesus, and if I ever see Jesus reflected, even in a secular movie, it, you know, pumps you up, yeah it reminds me of our Lord and also it's sort of a way to engage outsiders with the gospel.
Speaker 2:So you know, let's say, for instance, this happened down at the elementary school nearby. I was there to pick up my daughter and there was a lady there who identified as Wiccan and she asked me if I saw Guardians of the Galaxy this is you know, years back. And I said yes, you know, it's a Christ figure film. And she right away was no, it isn't. What are you talking about? And then I said, oh no, groot is Christus Vicar, which he said what does that mean? Well, he's the one who suffering, servant, who gives his life for his friends.
Speaker 2:And Star-Lord is Christus Victor. He's the messianic guy who's come to save people. And we ended up having a conversation and my idea is, if I were to come to her and say can I tell you about Jesus, she would have shut me down. But talking about this film was a way to get under her radar and we must've talked 20 minutes about Jesus and, yeah, seed was planted. I got to tell her the distinction between Christus Vicar and Christus Victor, which likely most of our day, if I was to walk up to some stranger and say, can I tell you That'd be weird.
Speaker 1:About Jesus as.
Speaker 2:Victor, or Jesus as Vicar, as a suffering servant. They wouldn't listen. So that's my prayer for the Reformation of the Church is that these men, and then the women we're training to be deaconesses, would be faithful to the gospel of Jesus. And I think part of that faithfulness is the desire and the willingness to take those opportunities to share that gospel with outsiders.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. Well, the arts are a wonderful means to do so. Today, and just a little shout out you probably don't know I'm connected to a studio down here. So COVID came and I got a. Yeah, I have a cousin by marriage, todd Freeman, who has been in the movie, independent film industry for much of his life. A pretty cool story. He was kind of he's a pastor's son actually, but then kind of had that prodigal journey away from the Lord and was up in Portland actually for a while and then they said you know what we want to get closer to family reached out, told me a story kind of his journey back to Jesus in the church and he's been on our team now about six years. Well, fast forward. He put together a film studio called Red Braille Studios doing a lot of kind of creative work to get the gospel out and we're getting ready to we're in the fundraising season right now of putting together a film called Wretch Like Me, which is it's in the horror.
Speaker 1:Now some people are going to say I don't know if Christians should do this. It's actually in the horror genre and it's an amazing take on a prodigal man's journey and his relationship with his daughter and his great fear about passing on the wretchedness of his we don't use this terminology too much in the film but the wretchedness of his sin't use this terminology too much in the film, but the wretchedness of his sin, his uh you know hurtful habits etc. And the demon that is sin and uh. So there's like a very, a very dark, menacing character which symbolizes our sin, which clings to us like a disease, and then there's a unlikely hero that that pops up which is very much in the christus victor uh motif. But it's, it's, it's gonna be a, it's, it's rated r, it's a, it's a secular film and, um, it's so, most people, if you were just like normal, it's gonna be like guardians of the galaxy, you'll watch it and be like whoa, that's heavy, that's, that's dark.
Speaker 1:And actually this is uh. There's been no one to date in the movie industry that is uh waded into the waters of horror, which is actually the highest grossing uh side of the film industry today, because of the not just grossing, but the, the margin, the roi on a lot of these films, which are our films, less than a million dollars, right, um, is is quite extraordinary. So we're, we're prayerful. If anybody wants to get connected to it. Just send me an email, tallman at cglchurchorg, and we'll send you the pitch deck. And it's an investment, it's an ROI, it's a kingdom investment opportunity. Right now. I think more people need to be engaging in winsomely, artistically telling the gospel in a way that people can receive it, and Wretch Like Me is our attempt toward that end. So hopefully you'll see the film somewhere down the line, dr Lewis.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I would say there's biblical justification for using the horror genre because in the Gospel of Mark there's four full exorcism accounts and allusions to others. And I would say that when Jesus goes across the lake to the land of the Gerasenes and meets the demoniac, with a legion of demons coming out of the tombs, if you're going to put that on film you have to. It has to have that horror vibe. I mean it ought to give the audience chills when you have some guy you know screaming at Jesus. Make it. And I'd say also the incident in the synagogue of the temple and the boy at the foot of the transfiguration. Typically, the top horror movie that makes a lot of the best horror movies lists is the Exorcist.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:And so there are actually exorcisms in scripture. Jesus always wins, uh, without that's a good difficulty, but, uh, good thing, I think the horror genre it's. It's good that's, that's a genre we could easily tap into. So, yeah, I'm excited about this film no-transcript.
Speaker 1:So how did you fall in love with the?
Speaker 2:gospel of Mark and its audience, its reach, david. Well, I mean, I could begin when I first started reading the Bible as a little kid, and this is, you might say this makes sense from a kid's perspective. Matthew, luke and John are really long and Mark is short, and so if you want to read a gospel and get through it, like even in a single sitting, mark is the one. And also this may sound bad too there's a lot of teaching in Matthew, a lot of teaching in Luke and a lot of teaching in John. A lot of red letter. Lot of teaching in Matthew, a lot of teaching in Luke and a lot of teaching in John, a lot of red letter. And if you're, let's say, a third, grader reading the Bible.
Speaker 2:You know I love the action sequences in the Old Testament, but I'd usually skip Leviticus, you know. So go to David and Goliath, you know, go to the wars and the battles. And Mark has teaching, but not as much. And so, as you just said, it's sort of an action, it's the action movie of the four gospels. There's important teaching throughout Mark, but not enough to bog the reader down. If you're simply looking for a good narrative.
Speaker 2:And Mark, I sensed, was sort of the poor stepchild of the four gospels, and so I just sort of, you know, identified with it as the gospel that didn't get any respect, let's go. But then, when I came to the seminary and I met Dr James Veltz, who's, you know, he's the master of the gospel of Mark, I just realized, oh, I'm right to love this gospel, because this is a gospel that sort of cuts to the chase in presenting Jesus as the Messiah, as the Son of God who's inaugurating God's reign of salvation. And I think Mark actually was intended to be experienced in one setting, one reading, almost like a long sermon. It takes about an hour and a half to an hour and 40 minutes to read and it just presents the story of Jesus right before the reader. The teaching of the other gospels is great, but if you just want to get the gospel the story of Jesus bringing God's reign of salvation to human beings Mark is the one. It just gets into it, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, fan into flame my memory, and this goes back a few years pre-COVID. I have COVID brain from time to time, but didn't you and Dr Veltz and a couple others do the Gospel of Mark?
Speaker 2:I wasn't a part of that group. But there was a group, yeah, there was a group that would do a live performance, and it was Dr Veltz, dale Meyer, the former president of the seminary michael ziegler, lutheran hour speaker. Uh, kent burrison, david schmidt and uh I think they were, they were the guys, and then beth helke was the uh, the producer of this. They would do a live presentation of mark's gospel and then visit various churches and venues and this this is all pre-COVID and they would do a dramatic reading of the Gospel of Mark.
Speaker 2:And I agree with Dr Veltz and there's other scholars too, is that Mark is likely intended to be a dramatic retelling of the narrative of Jesus. So we would argue Matthew and Luke are the attempts to present Jesus, sort of in a historical narrative. Mark and John are both dramatic retellings of that story.
Speaker 1:So take us back to the first years of the Gospel of Mark. How would the Gospel I mean, it's obviously written, it's in Greek, etc. But how would it have been presented and or read and fan into flame for those of us who may forget sometimes, like the gospel, or the Romans or any of Paul's letters? I mean, there was a courier, a proclaimer, an ambassador, someone who took and proclaimed that respective letter from the author. Would the gospel of Mark do you think have been proclaimed in such a way?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think this is true for all the New Testament and likely the Old Testament books as well. We're used to the fact that we just grab our Bibles and read them. In the first century there were probably a lot of people who were literate and a lot who were not, but the standard way of experiencing the biblical text for the first time would be through an oral presentation. Typically there'd be somebody reading the text and then everybody would be hearing this. This is why in Revelation you know, it says blessed are those who read you know, the words of the prophecy.
Speaker 2:But the word anagonosko means to read aloud and it's really singular. Blessed is he who reads aloud and those who hear. That shows this is kind of this is how, I'd say, all the new testament books were first experienced. You had one guy reading aloud and everybody else is hearing what is being read, and this then a number of scholars will study mark as sort of literature written for that oral presentation and I'd say in a sense it's sort of an extended sermon, uh, giving us a dramatic retelling of the ministry of Jesus, from his baptism and then this gets to the ending of Mark, to his resurrection. But do we actually see him resurrected at the end?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll get to that, but I think that's so different than a lot of times, because a lot of Christians today, because we're a literate society, et cetera, I mean it's me and Jesus it's me and my Bible it's me and my kind of private devotional time, and there's nothing against that per se, but like the pinnacle is the proclamation of the gospel and the hearing and inwardly digesting and then discussing what we just heard, right, and letting it take root in us.
Speaker 1:You know, and stories have, a way of doing that way, differently than, say, a theological excursus, right, stories change the human heart and connect us one to another in beautiful ways. So it can't just be about you this is one of the lessons of COVID, right. It can't just be about me and Jesus and a small little group of people, even my own nuclear family. I'm meant to consume this and it's why I got to land the plane with this too. I mean it is wild. As a proclaimer of the word now for 17 years, I don't know if wild is the best adjective.
Speaker 1:It's unbelievable If you don't have kind of a spiritual center, a metanoia, repentant mind that set on things above the work that the Holy Spirit does when the gospel is proclaimed in a space to a group of people Could be 10,000, whatever there is an unbelievable, it's almost an undefinable movement of the Spirit that the whole group just kind of like there's a heightened maybe this is the best way to say it Just kind of like there's a heightened maybe this is the best way to say it there's a heightened awareness that what you are saying is truer than anything that you can possibly imagine. That is the goodness and grace of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Anything more to say about the community experience in hearing the proclaimed word, dr Lewis?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I resonate with what you just said. I think if you were to think of a contemporary analogy today, it would actually be watching a movie in a theater, not at home with a group of people. And I think we've all had experience. Sometimes we go to the movie. It's not a big deal, but you ever go to that movie where you know everybody is resonating with the story. Everybody's laughing, we're laughing together. It was strangers and we experience it in a single setting with strangers. And we experience it in a single setting. We don't have time to hit pause, to go up and make popcorn. We're there experiencing it together as a group. And then what do you do? When the story is over? You talk about it right.
Speaker 2:You talk about, whether you liked it or didn't, how it affected you. I recently took my wife and daughter to see Dial M for Murder at the High Point Theater over here Repertory Theater, Cool and it's an old Hitchcock movie, I think from the 50s, and all the way out it was mostly a bunch of people even older than I am who were there and we were all talking in the lobby when it was over like, oh, we've never experienced this 3d.
Speaker 2:We had the 3d glasses and so cool people were talking about the first time they saw it, and I'm interacting with strangers over this. This is how the gospel of mark, and I think the other gospels as well, were meant to be experienced in a single setting. And what do we? Almost like a movie in a single setting. A reader reads this and then afterwards, what do we do? We not only inwardly digest, but now we talk to our brothers and sisters about what we just experienced.
Speaker 2:And this is a lot different than the prickle system we have today. Nothing against the prickle system, but we chunk it up into little mini narratives that we think stand alone system, but we chunk it up into little mini narratives that we think stand alone. There's a different experience when you get the whole gospel in a single setting. You know, from the baptism of Jesus in Mark, chapter one, to the resurrection in chapter 16. Without any time to hit pause, just it comes at you. You have to. You know Jesus is casting out demons, he's calling disciples, he's healing people, he's teaching some along the way. And what do we do? We go out to Denny's, get coffee and cake or sundaes or whatever, and we talk about it right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good. Hey I think I'm going to do. I learn so many things in these podcasts. I'm going to give a polite invitation to our team, because we've got some really creative people. Let's do what Dr Veldt and the other professors did and do a creative, just one-sit retelling of the Gospel of Mark. It would be absolutely epic. At least I think it would be epic. It would be, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2:Those live presentations were very well received.
Speaker 1:Good good, good, good, All right. Well, let's get into what's a little bit more controversial in the Gospel of Mark, your Concordia Journal article on the ending of Mark, especially as a compliment to Dr Veltz, who's going to be on here I had him actually scheduled and then something happened. Anyway, he's going to be on here soon talking about the article. I think they were both so well written.
Speaker 1:Let's dig into the main points of the article. Do you believe the kind of first question to get us going here? Do you believe the intended ending of Mark?
Speaker 2:16 is verse eight.
Speaker 2:If so, why so? Yes, I do think it's the intended ending, as does Dr Veltz. You know his article is dealing more with the long ending of Mark. Mine is dealing with the opposite side, where a number of scholars say 16 verse 8 is the last verse, but the original ending is missing, right? A number of scholars say that 16 verse 8 is the last verse we have. The long ending isn't real, but the original ending is gone.
Speaker 2:A number of theories how that happened Clayton Croy, mark Scholar, je Keith Elliott, text critic argue that there was an original book of Mark and the first and last page fell off. And all of our copies of Mark are based on a version that lost both its beginning and end. Clayton Croy's book is called the Mutilation of Mark's Gospel, but they don't accept 16 verse 8 as the end. I think it is the end and it really goes to our discussion about the impact of this story when read in a single setting. And so 16 verse 8 says you know, the women go to the tomb and they actually hear the resurrection proclaimed by the young man in 16, verses 6 through 7. And so the resurrection is there, but it's there verbally, right? We don't see Jesus risen. We hear Jesus risen. And then 8 says and after they had gone out from the tomb or they fled from the tomb for trembling and amazement, and I take this imperfect verb here seized them or had them in its grasp. And they said double negative in Greek they said nothing to nobody. That's you know, that's how my grand grandpas used to speak. They didn't say anything to anybody for they were afraid. And first I would say if, if there was more to follow, then you almost would have to say the Holy spirit must have lost that next page, because it's just amazing that it would end right there. And then you know, at such a sort of dramatic point, for the page to fall off. But I think Mark intends to end dramatically because he wants to, in a sense, punch us all in the gut. And when it's over, what are we going to be talking about? We're going to be talking about this ending right, they said nothing to no, they didn't say anything to anybody for they were afraid. And we're going to, when we go meet in the lobby and start talking and go get coffee, we're going to be talking forever about what exactly just happened in the story. And so I think it's like a perfect dramatic ending for this narrative and I would agree with Dr Veltz that it's actually anticipated.
Speaker 2:This ending is anticipated. He notes that in chapter 8, when the Pharisees and the scribes ask for a sign, in Matthew, jesus gives them the sign of Jonah, which is the Son of man, will be in the—just as Jonah was in the belly of the well three nights, the Son of man will be in the earth. And at the end of Matthew the authorities find out about the resurrection In Mark. Mark's version is no. Jesus says, to quote Veltz I'll be damned if a sign will be given to this generation, which means there's no sign. And then we don't see Jesus risen. We hear him risen but we don't see him risen at the end of the narrative and I believe Mark actually anticipates such an ending.
Speaker 2:But it's a dramatic ending and the point is this Mark is addressing second and third generation Christians who have not seen the resurrected Jesus. I believe Mark was written after the deaths of the apostles Peter and Paul, who saw Jesus resurrected. But they're dead and we haven't seen him resurrected. And so why do we believe in the resurrection? Because it has been proclaimed to us. This is about the proclamation of the word. We have not seen Jesus resurrected. We've heard Jesus resurrected and, as you mentioned when you talked about proclamation of the gospel, this is how the Holy Spirit works, through the word resurrected. And, as you mentioned when you talked about proclamation of the gospel, this is how the Holy Spirit works through the word and throughout Mark. You have a bunch of people who see but don't believe that.
Speaker 2:Interesting, upcoming in the pericope we have the story of blind Bartimaeus, who sees even though he's blind. Right, he has strong faith in Jesus before his sight is restored. And then Jesus' opponents at the cross will say you know, let him come down that we may see and believe. But that's not the way it works. And, mark, you hear and believe. You hear and believe. So you may wonder how does Bartimaeus know that Jesus is the son of David? You know he's just sitting at this road outside of Jericho Because all through Mark the word of Jesus is going out. Bartimaeus heard that word and the word brought him to faith. So for second, third generation Christians, people like us who've never seen Jesus resurrected, mark's ending says that doesn't matter. You've heard him resurrected and that's how the spirit creates faith. So we do see through faith, because we've heard the word, so it's the perfect ending.
Speaker 1:It is and it's our, it's our gospel. Dr lewis, is that right?
Speaker 2:it's our, it's a people's gospel it is yeah, I it's in a. In a lot of ways it's a good gospel for this particular age because it's it almost works against sort of this you might say modernist, scientific mindset people have that we have to see to believe. No, the spirit works, contrary to the way our culture works, but he does work, you know, through the gospel he calls people to faith in Jesus.
Speaker 1:Well the word works, doesn't it? Yeah, the word In the beginning was the word to John, and there's a creative function, creative component to the word, both in creation and for our redemption. The word always was the thing that it is. It is the logos that holds us. In him we live and move and have our being, and colossians elevates the cosmic christ right, and this just points us to, to the one who was there at the beginning, uh, jesus. And so it shouldn't surprise us that the word made flesh still today says blessed are you who have not seen and yet have believed the word of those who and I would say mark's narrative is basically john 20, that statement to yeah, to, uh, thomas, right, yep, right, you believe, because you've seen.
Speaker 2:Blessed are those who have not seen and believe that's, you might say, one of the one of the purposes of mark's narrative is to make that true to the hearer, you know, uh. And then, oddly, people don't like that ending. So there's actually two endings that were created later on, I think, because readers didn't like that ending. They wanted the Disney ending, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well because it served a rhetorical function. I mean, you kind of touched on this, but maybe go a little bit deeper For the hearer. We're invited to place ourselves with the women. Yes, we're invited to place ourselves with the women and then, as we leave, with questions, maybe fear, doubts, curiosity, but what does all this mean? Like, what are we going to do with the word? We've heard that Jesus is risen. We're leaving with this kind of fear and godly fear and trepidation. Oh, my goodness, something otherworldly has taken place here. Dead people stay dead, by the way. What are we going to do with this? So talk about the rhetorical function of placing ourself with the women.
Speaker 2:Okay, mark was likely written at the time of persecution right, they may not agree when that persecution was, but a lot of scholars know that Mark is addressing Christians who are under persecution, and that would explain the fear. In other words, this is a time when we might be afraid to confess, but in Mark, several times, like when Jesus calls disciples in chapter 8, he says who's ever ashamed of me and my word in this adulterous and sinful generation of me, and my word in this adulterous and sinful generation, the son of man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his father's glory with the angels. And so, and then later, jesus says whoever is, you know when, chapter 10, mark chapter 10, whoever's left these things for me in the gospel, for me in my word, a hundred times more will be given to them. And so it's Jesus and the gospel, jesus and his word. And so this is a context when Christians may be afraid to confess Jesus, afraid to confess the gospel, and so they might very well identify with those women who say nothing to nobody, for they're afraid. However, the challenge is, we want to identify more with the young man who proclaims the gospel, and so this is one way you can understand the rhetoric of the ending.
Speaker 2:The women said nothing to anyone. What about you? You know I love that. Are you going to proclaim the message of the young man that Jesus Christ the crucified arose? He's not here. See the place where they laid him. Are you going to do that? They said nothing to nobody. But what about the church today? Are we going to tell people? And then I think they know the whole story. So they're going to say but we know, the women did tell the apostles, right, not in Mark, but we know from the wider story that they did come through. But then the point is okay, they said nothing to nobody in Mark. What about us? Are we going to be the? Are we going to faithfully confess Jesus and his word? Are we not going to be ashamed of him in the gospel in this time and place which God has us? I don't know that makes sense, that's so good, yeah, who are we?
Speaker 1:the young man? You say young man, is that in the greek? And again, it's not angel. Is it necessarily? It's more young man.
Speaker 2:It's a young man, right dressed in a white stole, uh, a white robe. The word is stole, but it's a, it's a white rope. And I think Mark intentionally uses young man rather than Angelos, angel, not to say that it's not an angel I don't want to go down that rabbit hole but because this is a, you might say we're to see a human proclaiming the resurrection in the tomb, someone who's a man, and I believe. If you don't like the ending of 16, verse 8, and you say he's not risen yeah, he is Go back to verses 6 and 7. You might even say that the women leaving afraid, drives us back into the story. In other words, you don't like that ending.
Speaker 2:Let's go back into the story. The young man says you're looking for Jesus the Nazarene, the one who's crucified. Young man, you know, says you're looking for Jesus the Nazarene, the one who's crucified, right. That drives you back to the crucifixion. That drives you back to the story where Jesus predicts his crucifixion three times plus. So then back into the whole story. You know. Jesus tells James and John in chapter 10, you know, can you be baptized with the baptism with which I was baptized? Well, jesus was baptized to go to the cross, right. So the whole story is about Jesus Christ and him crucified. And you might say, if you don't like the ending at 16, verse 8, don't make a new ending. In other words, we may have the same fear the women do, but let's tell that story. And it drives us back into the story, back to the young man, back to the whole story of Jesus, and it drives us back into the narrative that we want to hear it again and speak it again.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. Well, a lot of your article in the Concordia Journal was on how this suspended ending of Mark complements the Iliad and the Aeneid. Am I saying that right that?
Speaker 2:ancient work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So let's look at both of those works. You can just jog our literary memories of those works and how they also have, in a similar time frame, also employed the suspended ending.
Speaker 2:Okay, and notice again if you were to pick up the Spring Concordia Journal for 2024, dr Veltz's article is addressed more towards the long ending of Mark, 16, verses9 through 20. And I'm addressing more those who say that 16, verse 8, is the last verse but not the intended ending. And often they will say you can't have a gospel that ends without Jesus appearing to people. This is a typical argument. And then another argument is that an ending at 16, verse 8 can't have been true because it's such a modern ending, it's such a good ending that ancient writers just didn't do this right. In other words, it's almost a modern prejudice that we're really good, we can do this kind of stuff, but ancient authors didn't do this. So when I wrote my STM paper I interacted with a book called Sense and Absence by J Lee Magnus and he pointed out various ancient works that had suspended endings. And I then took that and sort of did a bigger comparison with the Iliad and the Aeneid and so the Iliad. This is interesting. If I were to tell people who haven't read the Iliad what's in the Iliad, they know it's about the Trojan War and I'll say how does the Iliad end? And they will often say well, with the Trojan horse, right, they build the Trojan horse and I said, well, that's not how the Iliad ends. And they said, well, how does it end? I said, well, it ends with Achilles killing Hector. Achilles is the Greek warrior who kills Hector's body around Troy in a chariot. Priam, hector's dad, requests the body back and then it ends where they just bury Hector. The last line is so they buried horse-taming Hector, right. And then you're like, okay, what about the Trojan horse? What about the death of Achilles? What about the rest of the war? No, it ends right there. And I would say that ending is suspended because it's not the ending that the readers anticipate. And that's what a suspended ending is. Is I, a reader, am expecting a larger story, either because I already know the story right or because the story itself creates that expectation in me. But then it ends. So in the Iliad there are allusions to Achilles getting killed, but he doesn't get killed. In the Iliad it ends with then burying Hector. And then you have to wonder okay, so why does Homer end the story with the burial of Hector and not with the Trojan horse and the destruction of Troy? And then, basically, scholars have to wrestle with that question. In other words, it forces you to stop and think.
Speaker 2:And very often one interpretation is the story of the Iliad is about Achilles' wrath, right? So it even begins before the main story. It begins in the middle of the story. This is all in year 10 of a 10-year war. Achilles' wrath is eventually appeased and he turns from being this barbaric guy who desecrates this dead body to someone who hands the body over so it can be buried properly. And so this is about Achilles' wrath basically being sort of appeased. It goes away. Achilles goes from being a barbarian to being a civilized man and giving his enemy's body over for proper burial. And what makes that sort of ironic is we all know Troy gets destroyed, but there's almost like a peace at the end of this story. But the point is is whether that Homer's intention or not. Scholars have to talk about this because it's suspended. It just ends before it ends.
Speaker 2:And the Aeneid is probably less known, I think, by American audiences. I think we all are aware of the Trojan War. But the Aeneid tells the story of Aeneas, one of the survivors of the Trojan War, and his journey west to Carthage and then to Italy, and Aeneas is supposed to be the founder of Rome. Right, he's the guy who founds Rome. And then, theoretically, julius Caesar and his family are the descendants of Aeneas. This was what was believed in the first century. So Virgil wrote this for Emperor Augustus. It was supposed to be the national you might say, the Star Wars of Rome. You know, whatever Star Wars, whatever you like, lord of the Rings, whatever modern myth you like for our age, and it's supposed to tell the story of Aeneas founding the city of Rome. And so the final part of the Aeneid is he's in Italy fighting with his enemies, called the Ritulians, led by a guy named Ternus, and they're fighting over the hand of a woman to see who will marry her.
Speaker 2:And you would think then that it ends with you know, aeneas winning the battle, marrying the gal, having a child and founding Rome, but instead it ends with him killing, actually murdering, his enemy at the end of the Aeneid. So this parallels the story of the Iliad Ternus kills Aeneas' best friend, pallas, and takes his belt, and then Aeneas and Ternus fight in single combat and Ternus gets beat and surrenders, right. And so what would a civilized man do? He would spare his enemy's life. What does Aeneas do? He sees that he spares his life, but then he sees he's wearing the belt of his best friend and so he kills the guy. Right, he kills the guy. The final words of the Aeneid are and it's from Ternus' point of view, thus his soul went unhappily into the shades. The end right.
Speaker 2:And so once again, we don't get the whole story and likely, this is the national myth of Rome. Everybody when Virgil wrote this, everybody knows the whole story. But why does he end right here, right, why does he end on this note? And so, once again, you know, scholars have to argue like, okay, why does it end right here? And one argument is that Virgil's actually sort of being what's the word being a little subversive, right? Because Rome, at this time they've mastered the Mediterranean. They think they're the civilized people. And Virgil ends the story with the founder of Rome acting very uncivilized right. In other words, where in the Iliad, achilles is the barbarian who becomes civilized, Aeneas is the civilized man who becomes barbaric and murders an enemy who surrendered and is helpless at this point.
Speaker 2:And so, anyways, what my analysis shows is that when Mark was written, you certainly cannot say ancient writers didn't do this kind of stuff because they did. Right. The Iliad and the Aeneid, which Magnus in his book argues, are sort of like I'd say they're kind of like the Star Wars of the first century. These are stories everybody knows. They pull off endings just like mark. So you can't argue that the ending of mark is, uh, is impossible because you have other ancient works doing this you can throw in. I didn't write about this, but the book of jonah and the old testament has a perfect suspended ending. Yeah, it just ends right, just what happens to what happens to jonah?
Speaker 2:we, you know just ends with god basically proclaiming his right to show mercy upon gentiles who repent. Yeah, and so I. So I, my conclusion, that is that you, you, you just can't say that mark's ending at 16, verse 8 is impossible. Um, so then, often what they'll say is mark just was. Mark isn't virgil, he's not homer, he's not good enough to do that, which I'd say.
Speaker 1:Well, I think he is, you know I think he is, I think he was, yeah, yeah I don't know what are your thoughts no, I think it's great I mean you, you had me 20 years ago in in seminary on this and I I always, maybe maybe we can hang here like for the average every day because I'm this is kind of me just a normal pastor. You teach you different things, you know, and sometimes there's there are these points. You know the woman caught in adultery. You know these texts don't deal with these things and yet you know we they still may be in the because we got scriptures and I'm gonna talk with drts more about this scriptures that are kind of like verse 16 is kind of a big deal around about. You know that that whole thing.
Speaker 1:So like how, what are your words of wisdom for how a pastor kind of communicates this in a in a way that doesn't, because it could go down a path. You see, the scriptures aren't inerrant, inspired. You see these guys kind of playing fast and loose with the scriptures, adding this or that. Who's to say that they didn't add a whole bunch of different things? I love Dr Cloa's kind of take on this from hermeneutics back in the day. Yeah, there's all sorts of different variants and things like that, but there's no variant that we know that says you know what, by the way, Jesus didn't actually die on a Roman cross three days later.
Speaker 1:So the centrality of the story of Jesus is very consistent in all of the Gospels, obviously, as well as in Paul, the epistles as well. So you've got these variants. What's kind of a couple, three words of wisdom for us as we're trying to navigate. Do you include 9 through 16? Yeah, David, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't. And one reason is because I think 16 verse 8 is such a great ending and this is something nobody ever talks about except for me, that I know of. This is something nobody ever talks about except for me, that I know of. The long ending doesn't make sense at a narrative level because Jesus promises in 1428 that he's going to proceed the disciples to Galilee. The young man in 16 verse 7 says he proceeds you into Galilee. There you will see him. There's a hope that they will see, but it's suspended from the narrative. We, we too, will see when he comes again. But the long ending is takes place in jerusalem, right? So the hope of mark is it's going to be in galilee and the long ending is sort of mirrors luke 24 and john 20 where it's in um. It's instead it's in jerusalem, jerusalem, and we don't really need the long ending. Yeah, people who argue we do say well, there's no resurrection in Mark, and I'd say well, the point is, as I've said, the resurrection is in the proclamation of the young man.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's also promised by Jesus. And so if you trust Jesus, you don't need the long ending. Trust jesus, uh, you don't need the long ending, um, and I didn't mention this before, but the, the true climax of mark is the crucifixion and death of jesus. Right, yeah, this is a very pauline gospel, a very lutheran gospel. It's about jesus christ and him crucified. I would say the resurrection is actually denomah, right, uh, it's there. But even in the resurrection account, the young man says you're looking for Jesus, the Nazarene, the crucified guy.
Speaker 2:Where are we right now in salvation history? We're not in the resurrection yet. We're still under the cross. We're on this side of the cross. Why are Christians being persecuted when Mark writes the gospel? Because this is where we are and in a sense, the only human character to confess Jesus to be the Son of God in Mark is the centurion at the foot of the cross after Jesus has died, and then, dr Veltz would add, after Jesus has actually breathed the spirit out upon him. Right, and this is what Mark would say to us If you don't confess Jesus Christ crucified to be the son of God, you don't confess Jesus, and the long ending, I think, takes away from that theme.
Speaker 1:So good, you gave me a lot of freedom to just say we're going to end it at verse eight, cause I'm I'm with you, I'm with you.
Speaker 2:Dr Veltz, we'll talk about all the other reasons why the long ending is likely not written by Mark. Is the long ending canonical? You know I would. I would agree with what Nestle Holland and a lot of modern translations would do. I'd keep it there but put it in brackets. But I personally don't include it. Yep, I liked that dramatic ending at 16, verse eight. I think that's what Mark intended and I think that's what God, the Holy spirit, intended when he inspired Mark to write this gospel. I love it. Hey, he wants us to wrestle with who Jesus is and where we are as disciples under the cross, because we're under the cross.
Speaker 1:Amen, that's so good, so good. So last question Blow our minds with your doctorate journey with Jesus and purity. This was something as before we hit play that I was oh, this is so, so good. So just let us into this, because this really gets at the guts of Mark's gospel, this purity journey. Go ahead, david.
Speaker 2:Okay, I wrote my PhD on the theme of purity in Mark and how Mark uses purity to show that Jesus is the Lord of the Torah and if you keep in mind the first century, probably the biggest sociological challenge the church faced was the inclusion of Gentiles, Because many Jews kept the Torah. Many Jewish Christians kept the Torah and believed in Jesus. Do Gentile Christians need to keep the Torah and we know in the book of Acts this was actually a problem when Cornelius came into the faith and it settled at the apostolic council, but it still remained a problem even afterwards.
Speaker 2:We know from the book of Galatians yes, well, mark, you might say as a narrative kind of shows why Gentiles can be included, because Jesus is the telos namu, the end of the law. He's the Lord of the law, and this is shown in particular with purity and so kind of three things. First, when Jesus does the exorcisms, mark calls the demons 11 times unclean spirits, right.
Speaker 2:So, not demons, but unclean spirits. They're impure, they're outside of the reign of God. I believe they're opposed. You know these are. They're unclean because they're identified with sin and opposed to God's reign. And Jesus has authority over them. And he exercises unclean spirits out of Jews and out of Gentiles. He first does it out of a Jew in a synagogue, then out of a Gentile who comes out of the tombs in the land of the Gerasenes, then he exercises an unclean spirit from the daughter of the Syrophoenician woman, then an unclean spirit from a Jew at the foot of the transfiguration. And so interesting. Jesus delivers both Jews and Gentiles from the dominion of Satan, from unclean spirits. So are Gentiles a part of the reign?
Speaker 2:Yes, then there's three miracles where Jesus deals with Levitical impurity the leper, the woman with a flow of blood, and then Jairus' dead daughter. And in each of these miracles Jesus comes into physical contact with that which is unclean. And now, according to Leviticus and Second Temple Judaism, jesus would have been rendered unclaimed by touching the leper, by being touched by that woman. And then, after he's touched by that woman, he actually takes Jairus' dead daughter by the hand. And what happens instead is the leper is purified, the woman is saved, that's the word. It's not therapeuo healed, but so-so. She's saved and the dead girl comes back to life. And so Jesus, in a sense, he's so pure, he's the Holy One of God, he's got the Holy Spirit that he cannot be defiled. Instead, what happens is he brings purity to the unclaimed. So good. Then, finally, this sort of climaxes in chapter seven when Jesus says you know the hand-washing controversy, it's not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out.
Speaker 2:And then Mark in 719 says purifying all the foods. And so this is likely. Mark is likely written to Gentile Christians. What does he say to us Gentiles? Are we still unclaimed, as many first century Jews would say? Are we unable to come into the church and participate in the reign of God and Jesus? And the answer is no. In a sense, jesus is Mr Clean, right? I love that.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you picture him as a bald guy selling cleaning products?
Speaker 1:I have never, but I will now. Jesus is Mr Clean.
Speaker 2:He cannot be defiled.
Speaker 2:Instead, he just blasts impurity away casting out the unclean spirits, healing the unclaimed this is what Dr Veltz calls him. He's the Colossus from Nazareth who just blows everything away, and then you might say Mark in a sense is a narrative that confirms what Paul says in Galatians it's not by keeping the Torah but by faith in Jesus that Gentiles are purified and justified and saved, just as Jews are purified, justified and saved, just as all people are. And I don't know how we would apply this today. I still think we have a semblance of clean and unclean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:But I've pastored people whose primary problem was not really feelings of guilt but feeling of impurity. I don't know if you've had the same experience.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Not everybody feels guilty, but they feel like untouchable. You know, what has happened to me, or what I've done, makes me untouchable. And Mark is a gospel where the pure, holy Jesus touches the unclaimed, is touched by the unclaimed, and it does not affect him, rather, it affects them. They become pure, and so if you know anybody who feels like they're untouchable, the gospel of Mark presents a Jesus who reaches out and touches them and purifies them. Apart from anything they do, it's just him, it's Jesus who does this. And now in.
Speaker 1:Christ, there is no more Jew, gentile, slave, free, young, old, rich, poor, male, female. This is cornmeal righteousness, right we put into by faith, a right relationship with God, solely by faith in his son Jesus and his work. So, praise be to God brother.
Speaker 1:Hey, dr Lewis, you're amazing. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful God gave you the mind that he gave you and the jovial nature that he gave you, and students are so blessed to hang out with you, just as I was. Is there any way that people I know our listeners were blessed by the conversation today? Because I did very little talking, I just let you go.
Speaker 2:Oh sorry, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:That's the way it should be. That is absolutely the way it should be. You spent so much time in the gospel of Mark and it's bearing great, great. The fruit of faith is coming out of your work, brother. So if people want to connect with you, how can they do so, dr Lewis?
Speaker 2:Well, my email is lewis L-E-W-I-S D at csledu. That's great. So once again, lewisd at csledu. That's my work email. That's just the email, the only email I use. I think I got a Gmail account somewhere, but I've not checked in on it recently. But same, yeah, that's one place where people can contact me and thank you. I feel blessed to be here at the seminary and work with you students who are now, I mean, 17 years.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I mean 17 years proclaiming the gospel.
Speaker 2:To me it seems like yesterday, when you were here, I was thinking like really 2008? Wow, yeah, it goes fast, doesn't it? I just consider myself blessed by our Lord, amen In so many ways. This is something Dr Clovis said. I actually get paid to teach the Bible.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, isn't it Unbelievable? People pay me. People pay me to do this.
Speaker 2:That was something you know, jeff. Chloe used to always say it's hard to believe that people are willing to pay me to do something like this, that I find joy out of doing A laborer in their calling is worthy of their hire.
Speaker 1:I have to say this too. Anytime I talk to professors, leaders at the seminary. I've been on different podcasts Dr Lewis, talking quite vehemently for ways that the local church can partner more consistently and maybe efficiently with raising up bivocational and co-vocational leaders, and sometimes those words can be interpreted as a lack of respect or love or care for you and the work of Concordia Seminary and Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne. Nothing could be further from the truth. I really just want, ultimately, us to work.
Speaker 1:I want, I think the Holy Spirit wants who cares what Tim Allman wants? But the Holy Spirit wants academia and the local church to be walking together and it's always been a unique dance over the years of higher ed. But I think the days are here where we need to walk together more consistently and that's why I do these podcasts and I just have a lot to learn and I think it goes both ways right the learning from academia into the local church context. It just requires humility on all fronts. And so, all that to say, I pray for you and I highly respect your work and the work of Concordia Seminary there in St Louis. Brother.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, I pray for you too. It is in the congregation where it happens. Right yeah, it's in the congregations where it happens.
Speaker 1:And we need scholars.
Speaker 2:The church has not had seminaries throughout its history, but it is in the congregations where the word is being sung, the gospel is being proclaimed. So you're on the front line, brother, and I pray for you.
Speaker 1:And we need those that teach the word deeply and have deep disciplines. We need academics and we need just local parish pastors.
Speaker 2:So thank you, brother. So much this is the American Reformation Podcast.
Speaker 1:Aaron is caring Like subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in these podcasts, and we continue to have Jesus filled. Hopefully I got a whole bunch of deeper dive kind of rich theological Lutheran conversation is lined up in the near future, so stay tuned, can't wait for it. Thank you, Dr Lewis. You're a blessing brother.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Pastor Allman.