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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Addressing Decline in the LCMS with Mark Ernster
What happens when corporate leadership meets church reformation? Join us as we unpack that unique intersection with Mark Ernster, a seasoned leader who spent three decades at Procter & Gamble. Through a lens shaped by both the business world and nonprofit endeavors, Mark shares invaluable insights on how unity, humility, and the involvement of laypeople can act as catalysts for reformation within the American Christian church. We explore how principles like mutual accountability and recognizing people as the most vital asset can enhance the church's mission, fostering a culture brimming with health and collaboration among congregations.
Ever thought about what businesses can learn from a healthy local church? This episode offers more than just food for thought. We discuss strategies akin to a church’s mission, where kindness and deep care for people lead to both personal and professional success. Mark delves into the challenges facing pastors, emphasizing the importance of supportive communities to combat loneliness. As we navigate the changing tides of personal faith within the Lutheran tradition, we underscore the necessity for open dialogue and communication in addressing the challenges within the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod. Prepare to be inspired by a call to action for unity, humility, and meaningful involvement across both church and business landscapes.
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman here. Pray, the joy of the Lord is your strength. As I get the privilege today to hang out with a friend of mine from San Diego, from St Paul's Lutheran Church in San Diego, mark Ernster is in the house today. Lutheran Church in San Diego. Mark Ernster is in the house today and he grew up in San Diego, attended Christ Lutheran in La Mesa, graduated from San Diego State University and then spent 30 years with Procter Gamble as a leader. He's followed a career, did a couple stints with nonprofits and then has returned to San Diego around COVID time in 2020. So we're going to be talking leadership. We're going to be talking, talking leadership. We're going to be talking healthy culture. We're going to be talking how maybe the business world can learn something from the church and vice versa, and we're just going to have a good old time today. Mark, how are you doing, brother? Thanks for hanging.
Speaker 2:I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:We're going to have a good time, all right. So opening question how are you praying for reformation in the American Christian church, mark? You've had you've been in a number of different contexts, but mainly in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod. As you even look at our church and how we interact with the wider church, what are your words of wisdom there, brother, that you're praying for reformation?
Speaker 2:Well, okay, this is the way I'm praying. I'm not sure it's so wise, but we'll go with that. There's three ways. First, that we all remember who we are. We're all broken, we all fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3 says, for there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That means everyone, all of us, no distinction, and are justified by His grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ. That's all of us, right. Everyone, no distinction. And then whom God put forward as a propitiation for his blood to be received by faith, that's all of us, everyone, no distinction, everyone, no distinction. So I think it would be good to start there. Second, if we can remember that we are all the same, basically, or all in the same condition, let's you know in Luke 6, let's treat each other the way we would want to be treated.
Speaker 2:Okay, the golden rule you know. Make it really simple. That means that you talk with, not talk to or at, because there seems to be a lot of that in the way we communicate. I'd like the way Stephen Covey put it in his book Seven Habits seek first to understand, then be understood. Okay, and so the third thing is I really wish I'd seen more laymen and laywomen get involved in running a local congregation. You know it seems like, and you know it depends on the context you're in, but some congregations there's heavy involvement, some it's kind of left up to the pastor. And what I think, what we all need to be cognizant of is that you know pastors aren't trained on all the stuff of running a congregation. You know, because there's the spiritual side of it and then there's the mechanical side of it and there's plenty of skill in the congregation to help with that. So that those are the three ways.
Speaker 1:Hey, I'll summarize it this way your, your call for unity in confession of sin and unity in confession of Christ. The underlying emotion there is humility. There is no distinction. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So if pastors and laymen and women though sometimes I kind of bristle that term because it's kind of second under no a pastor's role is to elevate the priesthood of all believers, can we live in the holy priesthood as our baptized I'm not chastising at all, mark, but this even language matters and sometimes there can be this kind of hierarchy that may tamp down some of the willingness of the entire body of Christ to serve.
Speaker 1:That's your third one. May all of the baptized be involved in the ministry of their local church, utilizing all of their gifts. And then your middle point talk with, not at, talk with, not at. Utilize the golden rule resist being triangulated and understand first rather than trying to be under understood. That would be so, and that requires deep, deep humility, the ability to listen, the ability to ask questions and follow up questions, to remain curious rather than condemning of the other, whoever the other happens to be. So a lot to share there. I love it as you hear me talking anything to kind of put a pin on that, as it relates to the reformation needed in the local church.
Speaker 2:No, you capsulized that and summarized it perfectly.
Speaker 1:All right, good, good, let's talk about the top three things, like the church and we're speaking with a broad brush here a little bit, but that's okay. We can get down to practical things. What are the top three things you think the local church can learn from the business community? And then we'll go back the other way.
Speaker 2:Okay, kind of the way you bristled a little bit at the term layman. I kind of bristle at the notion of learning from businesses, because there are a lot of lousy businesses out there. Learning from businesses because there are a lot of lousy businesses out there, and so I would.
Speaker 2:I would qualify that a little bit by saying effective organizations, because they could be profitable or nonprofit, and I like a really good resource on this is Jim Collins's monograph Good, great in the social sectors, which I read a long, long time ago, but there are. In my mind there are three things that effective organizations demonstrate. One is a very clear vision on where they're going and what they're trying to get done. Second, one is a mutual accountability. And third is an appreciation that people are your most important asset. So what I kind of mean by the first one, you got to know where you're going, and there's nothing wrong with a church setting very specific goals or targets, and I kind of like to take the longer view of it, and so, in other words, where do you want to be in five or 10 years? And it's vitally important not just to leave that to the pastor, but you have to have the leaders in the congregation as part of that, and so you've got a specific place you're trying to get to. And then you've got some interim objectives that need to come with timelines from objectives that need to come with timelines, okay, and you got to delegate responsibility. You got to. You know it's. It's about finding the right people to do the work and then kind of letting them go. Now you don't just let go completely. Obviously you want to have some supervision, but you've got to delegate and then you need to adjust when things don't go the way you want them to. You need to keep the congregation informed and that could be through, you know, voters' meetings or emails or newsletters or just individual contact. You know, kind of depends.
Speaker 2:And then and I got this from Jack Kallenberg when I was talking to him a couple of months ago You've got to celebrate. You have to. I mean, it's the easy thing to do is to acknowledge work that's being done, contributions that people are making, and just thank God for them, and do it publicly. You know, not everyone likes to be recognized, but there's got to be a way to celebrate what else? So the second one was mutual accountability, and this is as much about respect as it is just making progress on things. I don't mean to oversimplify, but it's just this simple If you agree to do something by a certain time, just get it done. Please Do it. Please Just get it done. And when you make a commitment, commit with a deadline. Okay, because, because then then we've got responsibility. I was in a meeting of our board of directors in August and one of the board members said is this your church? Is this church, mark?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one of the board members said that she would write a skills survey that we could send out to the congregation so we could try to understand better what members can help us with, because we're trying to get things going a little bit, and I said so, when might we expect that to be completed? And so, and you know, because I was looking for a timeline, right, sure, and I got one and it got done, so and it's been deployed and we're getting lots of responses. So it's, it's, it's so easy to say, sure, I'll take care of that, but if there's not a hook, if there's not a timeline or a deadline to go with it, it can just get lost. And the third thing is an appreciation that people are our most important asset. This is a big one and you know we need to acknowledge that our staff in the congregation, whether it be teachers if you have a school, and we do or just the pastor and, you know, the secretary and that kind of thing, we need to support these people. We need to demonstrate that they are our most important asset. And to me that looks like coming alongside them and caring with them. And that can come in a lot of different ways. Right, that can be mentoring, because some of us older guys can mentor some of the younger workers. It can be praying, because some of us older guys can mentor some of the younger workers. It can be praying with them individually.
Speaker 2:There's a great book out that I learned about on the podcast here, holding Up the Prophet's Hand, by Bruce Hartung. Bruce Harton, and if you want a great kind of primer, if you will, or a great description of how you can effectively take care of your church workers, that's a great resource and it's a simple, it's a very simple read. And the last thing is you know you've got to be intentional about this, right, as you know and as I've learned through life and then just reviewing things on these podcasts, everything is relational and so you can just hope things will happen. Or you can be intentional, and so you know. An example of that is you know a board of elders or directors saying they're going to pick each one is going to pick and be responsible for partnering with a staff member and praying with them or mentoring them. Or you know, whatever the, whether, whatever the, the uh relationship might be.
Speaker 1:Hey, well, so much there. Um, vision, and I kinda there's a, there's a vision frame. I'm putting what you shared, your three, how it's. I don't know if it's best practice is the right word, but maybe something in line with that of effective organizations is people have to be oriented to the why they're doing it and the where they're going. So that is, that is vision strategy that must have people, leaders, building team and having accountable work that gets done by an agreed upon date, and you will lose this is where I think the church sometimes struggles.
Speaker 1:You will lose the respect of the not the average, but the everyday follower of Jesus in your, in your church, who's in the marketplace, if, if they hear you saying something as a church leader, as a pastor or whatever else, but then they wait on it. And church time is kind of different than the world time, than the business time, and we can get out into the next question. I think, too, things take longer to happen, maybe in the local church than in the business world, and there can be a number of contributors the passivity of the pastor or the board's governance structure and the kind of things that hinder maybe quicker decisions from happening for good measure. But, putting that aside, when we say we're going to do something, this is integrity and it's going to be done, by this point, are we held accountable? And this is, I think, the value of a good board. Hey, pastor team, we said we were going to be working on this, changing the culture in this way or raising the resources toward this end. How are we doing on that? Where are we at Update us? Are we keeping those lines of clear communication going? And then the reciprocity comes from the everyday follower of Jesus. When they see the team members paid, leaders paid, not paid whatever when they see them execute with excellence, humility, kindness, courage, etc. They got the job done.
Speaker 1:Are we celebrating them well? Are we celebrating them Well? Are we encouraging them? Are we? Are we having? Uh, I think you know we had a big. The closest project we've had here that was worthy of celebration was our gym being completed $4.2 million gym and the whole community rallying to make that happen. And then our big celebration point was a huge gala night that raised $200,000. I mean, it was unbelievable what the Lord did. It was a celebration to put a stamp of approval from the wider community. The Lord has done a mighty thing here and we celebrated big time. So, yeah, it's a great, great handle from vision all the way down to execution. Mark anything, any pin to put in that as we transition to what the effective organizations can learn from the local church in your experience. But yeah, transition.
Speaker 2:You know it's the same thing coming the other direction. You know churches, local churches, can effective. Effective, just like business is effective. Yeah, can help, you know, and you learn about Jesus in a local church, right, and you don't do that so much in a local business, but you know there's, that's just, that's just a great opportunity for local churches to help with their members and how they can witness in their local businesses. That makes sense Good.
Speaker 1:That's good. Are there anything else that that effective say businesses profits, not for profits, can learn from the local church? An effective, healthy local church?
Speaker 2:prophets not for prophets can learn from the local church. An effective, healthy local church, yeah, I mean if there's a local church that has a really clear strategy. And when I think of strategy, I think of where to play and how to win. That's the way I got taught, you know. For example, in our situation at St Paul's in Pacific beach, um, we say we are there to witness Christ to the community. Okay, well, that's our where to play, um, and so then the how to win is setting some very specific objectives of how we're going to be involved with the community and what we're going to do, and that's a lot of what we're working on right now.
Speaker 1:Hey, that's super, super fun. I think one other thing that hopefully the local church adds to the wider business community is kindness and a deep care for people. A deep care and at a holistic level heart, body, mind, spirit. You know how are you and I know the best CEO managers etc. Like they, they their direct reports, they get to know them and their family, their kids, their kids. I think that's the kindness and care of Christ flowing through those leaders and those who discount, use people as tools toward their end, their profit, whatever it. Eventually it's a house of cards that eventually falls over and the topple is quite fantastic, quite extraordinarily awful, you know. So, just as hopefully a healthy local church says it's all about people, people knowing and following Jesus, people growing in their gifting, celebrating people, et cetera. Anything more to add there, mark?
Speaker 2:Well, that's why I said you know, people are your most important asset, and I learned that where I worked, and and the bosses who live that out had good results, live that out had good results the, the, the men and women who were leading that did not live it out. Nobody wanted to work with them, you know, and and there was trouble. So, yeah, it's a difference between developing people and using them that's it I.
Speaker 1:I'm talking to my kids now. They're in high school. My son, you know, they don't know, they kind of have an idea of what they, they want to do. But I'm 43, mark, and you can. I have more to learn, to be sure, always, always more to learn. But I, at this stage in life, if you boil it all down, son, daughter, as you're growing up, be a person that other people want to be around. Yeah, that means you're humble, you're kind, you're curious, you're a good conversation partner, you're a friend. Yeah, and how many friends can you stack in a variety of different places so that you feel covered, you're surrounded, and then out of that place, your appropriate amount of risk trying, based on your curiosity, you're covered.
Speaker 1:I mean, the biggest struggle I think, for the young leader is thinking it's about the thing that they got or the skill they need to learn, rather than the community that surrounds them in the process of learning. Whatever the said skill is, we can become way more into the skill or into our gifting rather than the people that are going to help shape our character. If you lose and I guess that's how I'm going to land it If you miss on character, the humility and courage of Christ, like you miss on everything. Anything more there, mark? No, just amen, yeah, so lots to learn.
Speaker 1:I've been grateful that you've been a partner with the ULC a friend from afar, in San Diego. We've only met one time, but I feel like I know you and the Lord kind of hardwired us. I think in a similar not the exact, but a similar mold. You've had pastors become friends over the years, yeah, and I count you as a friend too, even from afar, as you've gotten closer to pastors. What surprised you the most about their calling their cross, if you will, that they have to carry as they move the gospel forward?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess the first thing is they've really got the same problems. I have, you know, going back to how I opened this, that we're all the same. So they've got a lot of the same struggles, and you know, because we're all broken but we're all forgiven, and so it's. It's. I guess the difference is between looking at a pastor when you're a little kid and looking at a pastor as you get older. They change, your perception, or my perception of them changed, and they and, and they've, they've, uh, become more human to me, um, but what I've noticed too is that there are some guys that are pretty lonely and even if they've got, you know, a family, wife and kids and stuff like that and, and you know, candid kind of acquaintances, um, they don't necessarily have the benefit of a buddy, and what I mean by that is someone that you can, you know, really talk to and relate to.
Speaker 2:I, fortunately, I've got a good friend of mine, my best friend, since high school. I, fortunately, I've got a good friend of mine, my best friend since high school, that we get together for a weekly therapy session and, you know, we can talk about simple stuff, we can talk about difficult stuff, it's just there's, there's a huge value in that, and somehow it seems like some pastors feel like they can't do that or they've been told not to do that. And it doesn't have to be with someone from the congregation. It could be someone from your past, it could be another pastor, it could be anyway. I just I don't know how much effort there is to make sure that all the guys in your position have got buddies. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean, jesus had buddies. I've called you friends. I mean Jesus kind of like, consciously lowers himself Right, you've called me Lord, lord, and you're right in saying I am Lord, I'm God in the flesh, but I've called me Lord, lord, and you're right in saying I am Lord, I'm God in the flesh, but I've called you friends. Everything that the Father has made known to me I've made known to you. We've had intimate conversations. We've disappointed one another. Jesus disappointed the disciples in saying I'm going to go to the cross. They're confused.
Speaker 1:Peter obviously disappoints Jesus. Get behind me Satan. So they had raw, honest conversations. But out of the friendship that they had with Jesus once the Spirit came and the clarity around what the gospel was, the hope that death has been defeated in Jesus and ultimately will be defeated when Jesus returns again, that friendship propelled the apostles to carry, even to the point of death, the message of the gospel they had. They just wanted others to get to know their friend Jesus and I so at seminary um 15, now how long I've been a pastor now, longer than that, 17 years I guess, so almost 20 years ago as I began seminary, I mean some of the kind of trite sayings that would get that were still in the vernacular.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's the same today. I think it's much more nuanced, but it was still said in a practical pastoral formation class you can't or shouldn't or you need to be cautious about having friends in the church. And I just made this connection. Right now. This is another benefit of raising up local leaders. I'm not saying this is against residential education etc and leave father and mother, you know, go to the seminary and then be sent to another context etc.
Speaker 1:But one of the struggles is when we uproot a young man or an older man from their kind of the social fabric, from their home, from their community, uh, they don't. They have a harder time building those deep relationships into. Because I think of a lot of like picture st louis, for instance. Right, there's a difference of intimacy in relationship. If you grew up in st Louis and people know what high school you went to, et cetera. From an outsider who comes in, that level of intimacy is going to take a while, that deeper friendship is going to take a while. And so you plant a pastor there. Yeah, it's just going to be a little bit more difficult when he may come from his social fabric. It was in San Diego, for instance. I'm just painting a picture. We could have healthier leaders if they were raised up local.
Speaker 1:It does also come with its struggles too. I'm challenging my thinking as I'm even saying it, because that change of role from an everyday follower of Jesus baptized in his name now to kind of a spiritual authority, that shift for a community can also be very, very hard. I remember for a young kid I remember changing your diapers or something like that, like a prophet is not without accepting his own hometown. I think there's something there too. So it is a nuanced, nuanced dance. What I guess the land the plane for me to get your thoughts is.
Speaker 1:Pastors should be wise about who they make friends with. We should be slow to kind of share everything that's going on. I think some language that we could bring into the pastor's vernacular is a spiritual father or mother, one who hears our struggles, hears our highs and lows and celebrates us. And then can there be people who are beyond. This is maybe in the places where you play a golf course, et cetera. Is there a social fabric of people that don't view you as a pastor? They view you just as a human being. Anything more to add there, mark?
Speaker 2:No, I think that capsulizes. And you know, if there's a friend you know at the church or outside the church, as you would put it where you play, it's helpful to say I need you to be my confidant or I need you to do this for me, yeah, and let someone know the role they're playing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's no, I think that's helpful. Okay, that's helpful. And people are able, I think, to change roles. Oh yeah, easy. Obviously we adapt into different roles. Could you just be my friend right now? Right, and that friend could also be one who challenges you because they may be on a board or something like that, right, I mean, we're way more nuanced, but I think we need to be kind and clear about the role we need from one another in respective seasons, and pastors need to take the lead on that, to be sure. So let's second half of our conversation today, mark. Let's talk about being a Lutheran.
Speaker 1:I get to host a lot of different guests who are from outside of the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, and it's a lot of fun to learn with them. Just right before our conversation today, I was talking to Walter and Ida Cower, two of our ministers. In a kind of faith tradition that some would term maybe like overly. They use words of knowledge or prophetic words, et cetera, so kind of more lean toward charismatic. But I had this conversation with them and I was like you know, there's a lot that you said that I agree on. We could tease out a few things, but yeah, it was just beautiful. They just come from a slightly different angle and I think the Lutheran angle today, primarily by grace, through faith in Jesus, all of the solas, the way we handle theological tension, paradox, et cetera. I think we need this today Big time. What do you love? I think the wider church needs the Lutheran voice today to be a uniting rather than a divide, a divisive voice. What do you love most about being a Lutheran follower of Jesus Mark?
Speaker 2:You kind of already said it.
Speaker 1:Oh sorry, no, that's okay.
Speaker 2:Anything to add, but it actually helps make the point. It's simple To me, it's very simple Grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone. The solace. And what it says to me is there's nothing I can do to earn my salvation. Right, god's done it for me. Passive faith, and you know. And that just says, oh okay, you know, and in our divine services, you know, we repeat that back, we confess it back. And you know, we are reminded all the time with sacraments of the forgiveness that we have, but we need to be mindful of it because of sinful nature, right, I mean, we just are always falling down. And to me it's amazing that and this is just, you know, speaking of my own self, no matter how much through my life, the Lord has tried to direct and I've gone the opposite direction. He's never let go. And that's what I love about it, because that's what we practice Is that?
Speaker 1:too simple. No, that's beautiful. The older I get, Mark, and you'll laugh because I'm not. I guess I'm 43. I'm firmly in middle-aged-ville, but the older I get, I don't know, something maybe clicked a handful of years ago and maybe it was a COVID click, I don't know. But I've changed. I'm becoming more of a traditionalist, I'm becoming more grateful for the way we do things, and that can kind of start to, didn't? I challenge people, by the way, but I liked the Lutheran way. I like the liturgy, I like the church calendar, I like traditional worship. I've always loved traditional worship.
Speaker 1:But you know I was I'm kind of on the millennial Gen X kind of divide in terms of age and my younger years. You know I was I'm kind of on the millennial Gen X kind of divide in terms of age, and my younger years, you know, as you're just trying to make your way, was largely formed by the very early movement, church growth slash contemporary music. I mean the Michael W Smith, the Sandy Patty, Amy Grant, you know those Stephen Cruz, Chapman, all of those folks were playing on our, on our cassette tape growing up, and so that was. That shaped a little bit of my formation and it's not that it that it was wrong at all. But great, great tunes, Subtle Up your Horses, we Got a Trail to Blaze. I mean a lot of, a lot of wonderful tunes. But like I'm more, I guess I understand more deeply the need for us to write our own music. And that sounds tribal. I'm not trying to sound tribal but the the contemporary.
Speaker 1:Even on the contemporary side I'm I'm, I'm happy about the new writing, the songwriters initiative that's going on right now, but I guess I I love there's two things happening. I feel like I'm pulled toward this openness toward the wider church, but then I'm pulled back to this like very clear, distinct, historic way in which we confess our faith, which center us on the finished work of Jesus and how we receive it passively. It's the spirit's work, it's not our ascent, it's God's descent for us. And then the way we tell that story in a Lutheran context is very necessary today. I think the liturgy and the church calendar is very necessary. It keeps us grounded. Anything more to say there, Mark?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally agree with that. Two things One, I went to a Baptist high school and you know there was a lot of that contemporary stuff there and I never really liked it. So maybe I'm an old soul, all right. But the second thing is and we are fortunate right now, one of our transition guys is Pastor Bill Diekelman. He does a great job of explaining things. So, you know, on any given point in time and we've got kind of an older church, so there are people that understand some of this liturgical stuff and why we do what we do he just has a natural way of saying this is why we're doing this and the more we can tell people, why think of how helpful that is to a visitor, isn't that right? You know, who may have no clue?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, that's that's. Great Many denominations in the US are struggling, including the LCMS. What do you think? This is a simple problem to solve. Let's just solve it, mark. What can the LCMS do to reverse our decline? It's not a silly question. It's a very real question that people at all different ages and stages and levels of leadership are trying to grapple with right now. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2:Well, I, um, again I. I'm sorry to have to rehash every message I've given so far in this podcast, but, uh, we got to start talking with each other and um, and that's not talk to or at, and I and we need to end radio silence. Radio silence makes me crazy and what do you mean by that?
Speaker 1:What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:I'm glad you asked. I got a very specific answer for you. Um, I have heard a lot, especially in the area of pastoral formation, that there's different ideas and that they're not all listened to. Ok, so alternate routes to pastoral formation versus only residential, that kind of thing, and I've heard these stories. And it's not that I didn't believe any of the stories I was hearing, but I decided that I would look into it myself, and so I don't know.
Speaker 2:It was earlier this year that the white paper came out about pastoral formation that some 13 different district presidents were involved with, and you know a very scholarly kind of document that was supposed to be brought up and then set aside, allegedly. And so I decided to investigate this myself and I sent a note to head of pastoral formation at the Synod and said, hey, is this thing coming up? And the answer I got back was can you send me more detail about it? I haven't heard of it, and so I said I'll do you one better, I'll just send you a copy. So I did, and what has ensued, without going through all the gory details, is several emails back and forth when it has just been ignored.
Speaker 2:My question and my final. You know, I felt kind of convicted about this because I could feel myself going down the path of getting frustrated and accusatory. So finally I said, I wrote back and said, hey, I don't know you, we've never met, don't know your context, don't know what you're up against, and so I'm just going to pray for you and just kind of left it at that, which is great. But this, this is serious stuff, and if we can't talk with each other about it, that's an issue.
Speaker 1:So yeah, well, I don't know, I don't know how that came about. When you've got a larger multi kind of regional and multi-district kind of thing, you've got rings of relationship that you're not connected to. And so when we have a conversation about this at the local level, like there's the circuit and then there's the district, and then there's the circuit, and then there's the district, and then there's the regional vice presidents, and then there's the presidium, and then there's a pastoral formation committee and then there's the you know president, president, etc. So we're distant from these rings of relationship. But somewhere in that system there has been and I don't know, this is maybe too strong of a term but a gag order around the topic of formation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't. I don't know that there is a gag order.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm saying from my experience, I think there kind of is because I have asked every, all four people on the pastoral formation committee to not just have a personal conversation with me, and some, some have, some have. I I must. I must admit that I uh, tom Egger at Concordia seminary, I've talked with him. This was a couple years ago now as he was just kind of entering into his leadership role. Um Dr Rast, who stepped out of his, his role as president of Fort Wayne, he and I had discussed it um privately, but but Kevin Robson and then James Bannock, and I think you've interacted with with those brothers, like I haven't been able cause I thought that like the set apart to serve kind of thing.
Speaker 1:As it relates to raising up the next generation, I think there was just one area that we weren't maybe being as intentional about and that's raising up pastors for now in their local context or bivocational, co-vocational. But they didn't, they didn't really want to talk about that Um, and I would like to have like a public anybody's listened to me for some time, mark, like I'm I'm not going to be angry, or like like I can see multiple different sides to the whole conversation, but I think it's way more nuanced. I think especially Jesus didn't give us a direct order Thou shalt raise up leaders in this way, like he didn't tell us that. He said I'm Lord of the church and of the world. Now go figure it out.
Speaker 2:Go multiply disciples.
Speaker 1:So the church had this. We didn't have actually seminaries for like 700 some years, until the monastic movement took place, but the church multiplied in beautiful ways. Was it messy, was it? Yeah for sure, but like. So we have some freedom to enter into this conversation, but, for whatever reason, we're just, we're just stuck here and I I don't want to be in terms of a system agent, I don't want to be one who keeps us stuck. We just keep bringing up the conversation because leadership is important, pastoral formation is important, and and we believe that we could raise up more and more leaders at the local level.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I believe I'm sorry, last thing here I believe that if we were more open to the conversation, that all boats rise. All boats rise, the seminary, residential education system rises if you come to the table to have the conversation and to to even while we were going on this, I just have to share everything and, like the group that I'm a part of that wants to raise up local leaders, there's definitely room to say, hey, there should be boundaries around this age and stage, season of life, et cetera, and that we highly encourage the majority of our, our students, to go to the go to the seminary. So there's a lot, of a lot of room here. But I just don't know that that we're having the conversation and it's going to take some time to build the trust to work toward whatever the necessary ending is, and I think we're willing to put in that time to build the trust. I don't. I don't know that some in certain levels of leadership are are eager to do that, so that's their mark.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my only other comment about that, especially to you know, parts of leadership that don't want to enter into the conversation. Let me just say this very plainly that does not, that attitude does not or that tactic does not represent the gospel that we're here to proclaim, and it's just bad manners. And if we just go back to that, we're all the same and we're all broken and fallen and we're all saved by Jesus' death and resurrection. Then let's just start there and sit down and talk. Anyway, oversimplified, but that's kind of the way, that's just easier for me to grab.
Speaker 1:That's the Jesus way. So last question You've kind of been connected to us, to the United Leadership Collective, for some time now. What would you say to a church or pastor who are considering partnering with us to expand God's kingdom?
Speaker 2:Oh well, I guess I'd put it this way, there's. You know, I don't even remember how I got onto this, right, I think when we first got connected last year it was. I think I even said in my email I don't know how this came about, but this is a Holy Spirit thing I guess I was looking around YouTube and saw one of the podcasts and I thought, well, that sounds pretty good, and so there are tons of things to learn if you start listening to or watching. I watch them on YouTube the uh Unite Leadership Collective podcasts and uh, american Reformation podcasts. Um, there's great practical resources. I mean, I can, I can.
Speaker 2:Let me just give my list here, um, of books that I've read from, from being involved with you guys. Um, bruce Hartung, jim Jim Sant, bob Kolb, joe Barron all have had great stuff to learn from. And then, for pure entertainment, Ray Keating. There you go, I love Ray and I think I've read all the books. Now, yeah, he's good, isn't he? It's just it's, yeah, yeah, I, I mean it's total intellectual junk food, but it's, it's great fun.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so there's stuff you could learn. Um, you know, I've taken advantage of the one hour consultation with ulc because I was asked by my board at st paul's to do some work for him and I I thought I had a pretty good approach and I thought, well, you know, you give me a free hour, so I'll just check in and see. And so I got an hour with Jack Kallberg and that was incredibly helpful. I mean, now we haven't partaken of some of the other offerings yet, but that's a reason to do it. I mean, you guys are on kind of the cutting edge of things and you're talking about leadership at the local level and you know we, every congregation is in a different place, but that's where it happens every congregation is in a different place, but that's where it happens.
Speaker 1:That's right. We just need, organizationally, a lot of friends and we're trying to build bridges as we're learning. If it's helpful for us, it could be helpful for you. And then we've just built a number of different frameworks, a church engagement model which we didn't build a number of folks far smarter than us but we've kind of Lutheranized it and it's way for people to think oh, it's just church growth movement. It's not church growth. The Y should be bristling at church growth, by the way, but it's an empowering structure Attract, get retained, disciple, multiply. That brings accountability to church leaders as well as kind of lay leaders within the congregation.
Speaker 1:So if we can help you with any of those frameworks, as well as kind of lay leaders within the congregation, so if we can help you with any of those frameworks, as well as a number of the classes that we have to just allow your leaders, lay leaders, et cetera, to dip their toes into the missional waters and say, hey, the water's good, let's, let's jump in it's. You're going to be okay and you're. You're learning your build measure to learning the lean startup model. It's something we definitely teach. You're learning. You're learning your build measure, learning the lean startup model. It's something we definitely teach. You're learning, you're iterating, you're confessing, you're receiving absolution and you're trying again, all for the sake of reaching those who do not know. Know Jesus, that's our, our driving, driving why so? This has been so much fun, mark, if people want to connect with you, how can they do so?
Speaker 2:Email is the best.
Speaker 1:M E R N S two two, seven, three, eight, m-e-r-n-s-2-2-7-3-8 at mecom, you may need to pause that one and go back.
Speaker 1:People want to connect. How did you come up with that? I'm always fascinated by people with like funky emails. Where'd that email come from? That combination of numbers? You know, I don't know. People are fascinated. You're fascinating, mark. You're excellent. Thank you for your wisdom and generosity of time today. You're a gift to me and to the body of Christ and I am grateful. You are a member and a leader in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. To be sure, it's a good day. Go make it a great day. Please get the word out about what the Lord is doing UniteLeadershiporg or follow any of our podcasts Lead Time and American Reformation. We'll be back next week for another fresh episode of.
Speaker 1:American Reformation Podcast. Thanks, Mark.