The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
Leadership: Learn from experts across diverse fields as we explore how their insights can shape and sustain a healthy culture in the local church and beyond. Over 60% of listeners expressed a desire for practical discussions on cultivating thriving environments—and that's exactly what these conversations will deliver.
Learn: Engage in deep theological discussions with scholars who illuminate how Christ is revealed on every page of Scripture. Together, we’ll bridge theology to the realities of a post-Christian America, ensuring practical application for today’s world. This segment aligns closely with the themes of the American Reformation Podcast and resonates with the 60% of you who crave more exploration in this area.
Live: Discover healthy habits that empower leaders in all vocations to become holistically healthy. As followers of Jesus, we’re called to lead not only with faith but also with physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
Join Tim Ahlman as we navigate leadership, learning, and living with purpose, so you can lead with strength, wisdom, and a Christ-centered vision.
The Tim Ahlman Podcast
Wrestling with God's Call on your Life? with Greg Finke
This episode emphasizes the importance of aligning our lives with God's mission through active participation in our communities. By sharing personal stories and insights, Greg Finke illustrates how everyday discipleship transforms lives and encourages listeners to embrace their role in loving and serving others.
• Importance of recognizing God's calling in our lives
• The role of community in practical discipleship
• Embracing a 'life of love' as a mission statement
• Fear of God as a push toward deeper faith, not a barrier
• Active participation versus passive observance in faith
Now if I'm standing steadfast against the Lord. Oh yeah, it can get very afraid, but here's more. What I would say is that you know, god will get us going on the path he wants us to go. It's just how hard are we going to make it on ourselves before we do?
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast. It's a beautiful day to be alive and I pray that Jesus, by the power of the Word and Holy Spirit, is coming alive for you, that, as every single day, you immerse yourself in the Word of God. You see, it's an active book, it's living, it's moving and it moves us out into our community to see where God, by the power of the Spirit, is at work in the lives of people, bringing them to faith and on the way to faith, inviting us to be his mouthpiece, his hands and feet. It's an awesome privilege that I have today to hang out with a man that I have respected from afar and from time to time he and I get to hang out and it's an absolute privilege. This is Greg Finke.
Speaker 2:Greg has been a longtime Lutheran Church Missouri Ascended Pastor and a number of years ago I'll let him tell the story he had this call that the mission has to go out Like we can't as pastors. It seems kind of ironic, because I'm a pastor behind a desk at a church office. We can't just hang out behind a desk in a church office. God is on the move out in the world, and are we as church leaders and just everyday followers of Jesus in the marketplace, observing where God is at work. I listened to Greg speak at the Best Practices Conference. Gosh, I think, greg, it was maybe the first Best Practices Conference, going back maybe 14, 15 years, somewhere in that range, and that's, I think, when we met for the first time. So well before we get into it, greg, how are you doing man? Thanks for your generosity of time.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I just love listening to you talk. So I'm good Praying and talking and blessing people. I love it. So you know it's great to be with you and I'm honored to be able to have a chat with you and hopefully something spills over and is helpful to the people listening Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Well, there's no doubt it will, because the Holy Spirit's involved. So how did you come up, tell the story of Dwelling 114, how you kind of came up with it, and then we'll get into a little bit of the mission of the ministry Greg.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well for sure. Well, first of all, yeah, like a lot of things, I wasn't looking for this to happen. I can go way back and say I had no plans on being a pastor and God didn't care and, you know, forced me to become a pastor. And then, you know, you follow his way and fruit happens. And that was certainly the case for us, and I never anticipated not being a pastor of a local church. But again, god really didn't ask my permission, didn't give me a heads up. He just started messing with me and all of a sudden, at a certain point back in 2011, I realized he was asking us to drop the nets, which, when you're the senior pastor of a large church, it's kind of crazy to get that kind of a calling to drop your nets and follow him. But there was indeed, like you said, just a real awareness that mission was not happening for a lot of people, even though the desire to be on mission did.
Speaker 2:Greg, I have to interrupt you there. You use a word and some people may have had a pause. Like God forces me to do something, like he forced you to be a pastor. Tell that story. How did that—you were compelled, you couldn't do anything else or was it literally like this yeah, well, I mean one can use whatever word you want, but it was against my will.
Speaker 1:I had a real clear sense that I wanted to be a Lutheran high school educator, to be a history teacher and a coach. That's what I wanted to do. I came from a long line of Lutheran teachers. I loved interacting in that way and had every intention of doing that. Went off to Concordia, chicago, and about during my Christmas break.
Speaker 1:God just truly sat on me in a remarkable way until I, if you will you know called uncle and said, ok, I will be a pastor. And it was if this huge thumb came off my chest and all of a sudden, all the reasons I had for not being a pastor just evaporated and I went back to Concordia, enrolled, changed my major to a pre-sem still education, but pre-sem and started taking all the languages. And then, you know, um, seven years later, seven years later, got my first assignment in Michigan. So, yeah, what I mean by that is not that God was. It's just like when we talk about in joining Jesus on his mission, the book Jesus messing with us, it's never to be mean or to pick on us. It's to get us to notice things and respond to things that we never would have before had he not poked us and got us to wrestle with him a little bit, and that's certainly it.
Speaker 1:I knew I didn't want to do it. My grandpa had been a pastor. I was like, nope, that is not for me. But God's like okay. Well, it was kind of like Jacob to Israel. I'm no Jacob, I'll never be in Israel. But Greg, you know, got wrestled to the ground and I finally said yes, sir, and off we went and the same kind of thing happened, starting 2114. Didn't want to stop Thought this is what I'm doing, god's blessing it. We had been in growing churches in Michigan and then in uh and then in Houston, and but God just uh, really made it clear we were to drop the nets and follow him. And I never thought it would. Uh, uh, you know, as I wrestled with him, uh, he wasn't giving me much details other than what part of drop the nets don't you get. So we did, we resigned that call and started Dwelly 114. And now it's been a crazy ride ever since.
Speaker 2:Well, let's go deeper into that part of your story. I've been wrestling a lot lately, greg, with the fear of God. You know we are. Luther says we are to fear and love God and there is this sense of. I mean, the primary nature of God is is love right, and we know that's true because of Jesus and his love for us, shown through a cross and empty tomb, and his, his reign, and the indwelling comforter, the spirit. So God's primary disposition is is love. But yet if I reject his call upon my life based on how he's wired me and the people he's placed around me, that can confirm that that call. Like there is an appropriate sense of fear. Like I fear sometimes you know on respective podcasts or maybe it's in relationship with folks in our church like sometimes there's a harder word that needs to be spoken and I fear not speaking that word. I fear God in not speaking that word more than I fear maybe the result of a change in a relationship.
Speaker 2:Any thoughts there regarding because really what we're talking about is the fear of God connected to discerning the will of God Not a very light topic, it's a very kind of heavier topic to kick our conversation off. But you've discerned that will of God that led you to be a pastor and then to start Dwelling 114. Would you get into a little bit more of the nuts and bolts of the how that works, because I think as Lutherans we're very reticent to say God works beyond means, right, beyond his word, beyond his sacrament, beyond people. And if there's a word from the Lord it better be confirmed in scripture in some way, shape or form, or else we're all wet right. We're going down a path that's not connected to the will of and word of God. So anything more to say about fear of God and discernment, greg.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you brought up a very simple subject, so thank you for throwing me into the deep end. No, I would say this just from, you know, having walked with the Lord now for many years right, fear is not afraid. Now, if I'm standing steadfast against the Lord, oh yeah, it can get very afraid. But here's more what I would say is that, um, you know, god will get us going on the path he wants us to go. It's just hard. How hard are we going to make it on ourselves before we do, right, kind of like, uh, kind of like, uh, jonah, uh, it wasn't. If it was, it was how hard it was going to make it on himself and and and there are going to be dramatic times, probably, at least in my life, where you know, there was a dramatic having kind of if you want to call it, a slap down wrestling match, a little season of angst, but what happens is, over time, you start to learn that that's how God deals with you and instead of it, you know, instead of it taking months, it takes sometimes minutes, right, because it's you're no longer going. Oh yeah, no, I OK, ok, lord, and so being able to kind of have this deep friendship with the Lord so that there is the fear is still. You know, in the Hebrew word that's translated fear. You know, it's not just afraid, it's more like a deep love and respect. Right, that completely humbles me, and the longer I walk with the Lord, the longer I'm going to be comfortable with going oh no, we'll go ahead and let him be God and I'll just be the little child that responds to it.
Speaker 1:Now, having to say the next part, which is about what's my role in speaking into the lives of other people, I think what happens is that human beings, and especially pastors, who are used to being in control, we often overstep our bounds. We want to force righteousness, we want to force the right decision, we want to force a pathway decision, we want to force a pathway, and what happens too often is that we forget we're not God and that the only way that a person can really respond in a way that is truly pleasing to God is if they're responding to God and not to my oversteppage of that Right. And so I think what, what you know, paul says and this is what's so hard for us it's telling the truth and love, which means I love you enough to tell you the truth. But I also love you enough to leave you to your own wrestling with the Lord. I can't save you from that wrestling match. I can't force you, I can't make you, but I can love you enough to walk with you, even as you might continue to wrestle with it. But here's what I can also do if I'm given the privilege of walking with you is after you've done that. Now I can help you learn from that experience, even as I've had to learn from that experience and I've done that with my own children that are now grown children I've also been able to do that with people that I have long term relationship friendships with, with people that I have long-term relationship friendships with.
Speaker 1:And it's really cool because it's through that experience of wrestling and seeing oh, god's way was the better way, right. It's kind of like the Proverb 3, you know that we lean not on our own understanding, for he will make our paths straight. And I look back and it does not look like my path was straight and it's only because it was my expectations that I kept going left and right and left and right. And yet I look back and I go, oh, in the midst of all, that there really was a straight path that the Lord was leading me on, but I couldn't necessarily see that as a 19 year old right, I had 19 years of goofball experience rather than 60 plus years of of, uh, of, of more of an arc of experience that I could look at. So that's why I think Paul says you know, young people are wise to listen to older people because of the wisdom, and that wisdom is learned the hard way.
Speaker 2:Hey, that's, that's so good. Um, the Holy spirit. I've been reflecting on the Holy Spirit an awful lot lately, right? I mean, it's often it's the Father and the Son, and then it's the Holy Spirit, and often, as Jesus talks about, you're going to receive something that's different than John's baptism, for you'll receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. It was just like this. And then I went back to the beginning of Luke and it was the exact same promise and the exact same water, connected to the Word that Jesus experienced, and then the Word of God. This is my beloved Son, in whom I love. That was the exact same promise that Jesus was anticipating for the early believers.
Speaker 2:Go to Jerusalem, wait, and then Peter gives, in Acts 2, the greatest sermon you know, cutting to the heart what must we do to be saved? Be repent of your sins and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So then, when Luther starts to talk about remembering your baptism, this is walking in step with the promises of God as a child of God, connected to the word of God and connected then to the way of Jesus, because we have the Holy Spirit, we have the representation. We actually have the manifestation of Christ within us, not just individually, but within us as the body of Christ. So when a brother or sister I'm landing the plane here when a brother or sister speaks a word to us connected to discernment, connected to the I see in you conversation how they see God at work in our lives or where they see maybe us listening to the accuser or living in shame or guilt, we are wise to listen to, just like the early church listened to Peter and received the promise of baptism.
Speaker 2:We're wise to listen to our elders who have had obviously had an encounter with the Lord connected to his word, have a call upon their life and they're just like, hey, I'd love to apprentice you. I think one of the better definitions of discipleship, greg, is apprenticeship. Right, I just want to, as I follow Jesus, come, follow me. That appears to be the way that Jesus did it with his disciples and obviously Paul did it with the early church as well. Any kind of connection to discernment and the Holy Spirit, as you hear me kind of giving the arc of the way the Holy Spirit presented himself in the New Testament.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think when we repeat the words of Jesus right, and especially in the grace and truth, in other words, grace that brings, truth, that sets free, doesn't try to control, doesn't try to manipulate, and that's what I really think is a real danger in our current it's always been a danger, but it's certainly a current in our present milieu of the North American church is that we try to use truth to force people to think like us, believe like us, vote like us, et cetera. That is not grace and truth, that is your own, et cetera. That is not grace and truth. That is your own twisting of the law to force. But if we start and I love the way you said it, because I think we underestimate we always read the gospels and we want to skip ahead to the end of each of the gospels, to the death and resurrection of Jesus, and we forget that the whole previous part of that Jesus is discipling us, apprenticing us in how to live a life of love. And when we start to go, oh, love in action is certainly an activity, but it's also often words. And if we can start to look people in the face and help them with the good news of God, the grace of God, the mercy of God, just like Jesus did to the least, the lost and the last, the Pharisees full of themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're going to get a tough word, but the rest of you? I need you to hear the good news of God. Right, that's what he went around, mark, chapter one, that's what he went around you know, galilee proclaiming the good news of God, and we turn the good news of God into I don't know law instead of oh no, I got good news for you and and just being that good news person and to, to, to mentor people through that, again, I can't, I can't, I can't get you. I'm not going to be able to get you out of the headlock. God has you in. There's reason for that purpose, for that, and it's good, right. But what I can do is remind you that, oh no, he's, he's like a big daddy wrestling with you on the floor.
Speaker 1:It may be uncomfortable, you may be squirming, but it's for a good outcome. How do I know? Well, let me tell you a story of what had happened in my life. Let me remind you of how Peter had to squirm all that. But we need someone that can speak that to us in our life and if you don't have somebody like that, go ahead and start praying about and then start thinking about who are the people that are within your reach? Might be in your church. Family probably is Certainly. It might even be in your neighborhood or workplace where there's a more mature follower of Jesus that can be someone you have a regular cup of coffee with to do that, because we forget that.
Speaker 1:Well, we don't forget Salvation, we know, is an action between God and us, which, with God doing all the action Discipleship, apprenticeship, sanctification is something that God does as well, but it requires our participation, and what we forget is that it also requires usually another human being, a human being. In other words, if we start and this gets us to a little bit of, I guess what our 2114 ministry is about is the mission part is supported by the discipleship part, and what we forget about discipleship is that it happened in the gospels, with Jesus telling the disciples come, follow me, be with me, watch what I'm doing, see my example. Then I want you to follow my example. When we start chasing then, that same idea through not only the gospels but the epistles, you start seeing it all over the place with Paul, philippians 3.17,. You know, whatever you've seen in me, whatever you've you know, follow my example and take note of those that are living according to my example and the pattern that I gave you.
Speaker 1:Hebrews 13, 7,. Take note of the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Such a powerful and simple verse. I want you to know them well enough that you can see the outcome of how they live so that you can then start imitating that. Well, that's only going to happen through relationship. If I'm sitting in a pew and listening to my pastor, I see how he preaches, but that's not. I don't see the outcome of a way of life. Likewise, in a small group, if we're simply talking about the Bible class questions or the small group discussion questions and we never get around to, here's what's going on in my life and here's what's happening, I don't know how God's working through your living a life of love. You know, humbling yourself, serving others, just like Jesus showed us. I don't see the outcome of that and I don't know how to start imitating that. But man, with just one step towards that kind of relationship and intentionality, lives can be transformed. And multiplication of that way of life starts to happen in a congregation.
Speaker 2:Pretty cool Well you wouldn't be where you're at in terms of leading this ministry as well as a pastor, unless there were men and women over the years, at the right point, who did just that. And human beings want a mirror we want to follow, we want to have examples, an ideal, and obviously it's Christ. It's a cruciform life of sacrifice and service. But I have to see it modeled and that's one of the, I guess, compulsions you talk about the heaviness of God. It's a lightness. His yoke is easy, his burden is light for sure. But I feel, since I was in a family that was so healthy and a dad, and that I got to see, model out what it looks like to lead with humility and courage and I've got multiple my father-in-law, my brother, like there's just a lot of us who are on this Jesus path and inviting others to follow us as we follow Jesus, I'm like compelled to speak. Woe to me if I don't speak.
Speaker 2:And where you were kind of maybe on the side, referring to the desire in all of us Not in some, but in all of us toward power and compulsion, and my way. That's obviously not the Jesus way. That's the flesh in us and in us individually and I would say in us, potentially corporately. But the way of Jesus is invitational, it's not compulsion. Come and follow me and learn how I do it. I guess I could reject that invitation. Why would I want to? Because it's the greatest adventure of all time Come and see how I'm at work out in the world. So let's get into mission here, greg, a bit. What does participating in accomplishing the mission look like? We've talked a fair amount about discipleship and even Link mobilized us in the discipleship apprenticeship conversation to join Jesus in his mission out in the world to get all of his kids back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, and that's what we have made something that is simple and already summed up wonderfully in the scriptures. We've complicated it and made it very vague again. Jesus made it clear this is how people will know that you have been discipled by me, how you love, right Paul in Ephesians 5, verse 2, live a life of love. Well, what does the life of love look like? He answers it Following the example of Christ, who loved us and gave himself for us. Jesus in John 13, 34, as I have loved you, I want you now to love one another. There's a self-sacrificial love. That is the core, the center, it's everything right.
Speaker 1:And then you know, in 1 John just read 1 John, 4, verses 7 and following, and it's like an amazing laying out by John, through the Holy Spirit, of what love is. You know, love first of all comes from God. And then he says this is love, not that we love God, but that God loved us and gave his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sin. Now that we have been so and I'll throw in the word sacrificially loved, because that's what he's talking about Now that we have been so loved, let us now love one another. And then he goes on to say that's how this love is made complete. And, of course, we love a little later. We love why? Because he first loved us. That's not just our motivation, that's where the love comes from People I know I talk about. You know Jesus, summing up the law and the prophets love the Lord, your God, and love your neighbor as yourself. You say, well, how can I love my neighbor as myself? I don't even love myself. And I say I got good news for you because God loves you, right? I love because God first loved me. I don't have love for my neighbor loves you, right? I love because God first loved me. I don't have love for my neighbor, but I take a deep drink of the love that I need and then I offer a cool cup of water of that love to him.
Speaker 1:And so our life, then, is living a life of love, which you know again, according to scripture, first I received that love freely, fully. I trust it, I'm convinced of it, and then, now that I have this love, I go out looking for people that need a little bit of what I already have in abundance. And that's my life. My vocation is, you know, the season and place that I'm living life. And if you think about all the Christians all over the world, if they woke up every morning remembered that they are loved and forgiven and redeemed by God and through Christ. And now I'm going to go out looking for people that need a little bit of taste of that, and I get to be the little kid going around looking for people and I'm going to work and I'm running the kids and I'm you know, I'm mowing the lawn, I'm doing the stuff I've been doing, but now I'm doing it as a follower of Jesus, and a follower of Jesus looks for people that needs love and offers it to them. And if we do that consistently and intentionally with those that are around us on a regular basis, we'll even get to see the growth and the fruit that starts to come of that.
Speaker 1:You know, love people a long life's way. You know, do that that you'll never see again. Absolutely Throw the seed on them. But the ones that and this is what we really emphasize is you know, get to know, start to hang out with and intentionally love the people God's placed around you. And we always have to tell especially it's just North American Christians in general, but Lutherans tend to have a little trouble Love them in such a way that they know they have been loved, because most of the time we love them but never do anything with it. And it's love in action that it wasn't that God loved us and saved us. It's that God loved us and did something about it. Right. Love in action, for God so loved the world that he gave, and so that's where to be able to go.
Speaker 1:What does it look like for our people to participate in accomplishing the mission of God? Well, the mission of God is to get his kids back, all of them, to redeem and restore all things. That's a God thing. Only God can save the world, but he invites us to participate, to join him. And again that Ephesians 5.2 starts right before 5.2 is 5.1, right, and it's a crazy. I mean, if you read it, it's crazy. Be imitators of God. Well, for heaven's sakes, how can I be an imitator of God? Not by doing all things and knowing all things. It's by being willing to love like God loves. And how do?
Speaker 1:I do that Well, I love the way that he first loved me. Now that I know that, now I can live a life of love, imitating Jesus, who I can see, who loved me and gave himself for me, and if we can realize wow, that's the ballgame, guys. Everything else is details that still lead back to the heart of that, which is God loves you. Now you go, love. God forgives you in Christ. Now you go, look for people that need forgiveness. You know that's what Jesus sums up in Luke 24 when he's sending him out. He's like you know, I'm the fulfillment. Remember, I told you I had to fulfill everything the law, the prophets, the writing said. And then he said now open your mind to the scriptures. And now we're waiting for a deep something. Right, man, this is going to be deep and we've never heard this before. And he said well, here's what it all means the son of man must suffer, rise on the third day and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations.
Speaker 1:Any questions? I mean, that's what Habakkuk 3 was talking about. Yeah, I'm not quite. I don't know all the dots to the connections, but yeah, that's what Habakkuk 3 was. How about Ezekiel 31? Yeah, somehow that connects back to me knowing I've been forgiven. And now I get to go out and be a little fellow that goes out and make sure people know that they are loved and forgiven. And now I get to go out and be a little fellow that goes out and make sure people know that they are loved and forgiven.
Speaker 1:And if we can keep it that clear and simple, which the Bible obviously does, you know, going back Galatians, the only thing that matters is faith, expressing itself through love. Any questions? So if we can remember, all these things lead back to receiving love and then being the distribution system of love. Now mission, you're going to see it happening in front of you, consistently and frequently, over and over again. Because the one thing we forget we study it, we understand it, we believe it we forget to go out and do it. We study it, we understand it, we believe it we forget to go out and do it. And when we go out and love people guess what People that need love? They come to life. They come to life.
Speaker 2:Greg. Okay, so many things. One, if you go back and listen to the last five minutes or so, greg is dropping scripture like a beast man and if I'm going to summarize, what you're saying is we have been loved by God to love him in return. I'm doing two kinds of righteousness, here and now. God doesn't need our love. He couldn't be any more proud of us than he is right now. Through faith in his son, he smiles over us. We smile back and we carry that smile, the love, the care, the kindness of Jesus into the world to love our neighbors as a living manifestation of who Jesus is, who God is. God is love. I'm turned on to a book called Becoming the Gospel by Michael Gorman. Have you heard of this book?
Speaker 1:Greg no, but that sounds like he's stealing it from Jesus. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that is good. That's good, you don't need to create anything.
Speaker 2:There's no original content here and what he does is he looks at the Apostle Paul. So he says all of Paul's writings have a missional focus, a missional lens, a missional aim. Yes, couldn't agree more. And then he goes deep into how Paul uses these three verbs. And you see in 1 Thessalonians, and you see it in a number of his other letters, and it's at the very, very beginning. This is 1 Thessalonians 1, which we think is one of, if not his first letter, his tightest letter to the church there in Thessalonica.
Speaker 2:We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly remembering you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your and here comes the three verbs your work of faith. So, from faith and for faith God has claimed you. You trust in his promises, you trust in his word, your work of faith. And then I love this your labor of love. So as you've received faith, there's this work. You're being known in the community. I'm being known in the community because you're working out love and then your steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. So we look at I think it's 1 Corinthians right Faith, hope and love. But actually the pattern in most of Paul's letters is faith, love and then hope. And so he has this really cool phrase that he's actually coming on this podcast in a month or so. He has this really cool phrase called participatory anticipation. It's a mouthful Participatory anticipation.
Speaker 2:So, as God is at work for me, shown through the cross and the empty tomb, but the risen one now reigns over all things, we should talk more about the ascension, I believe, the reign of God over all things, and then how he's working in the world by the power of his spirit, making us the temple of his Holy Spirit and then us as the church, the body of Christ. This is the way the world be drawn to Jesus and I get to participate. I'm not Jesus, but I'm like Jesus. You know he chooses to work through me. I have fallen feeble, broken, frail, frail, little me, that little guy.
Speaker 2:I love how you were referring that little guy. Look at him, go. I think that's the way God is like. Look at that little guy doing, doing my thing, you know, carrying my spirit, carrying my word out into the world. But if you ever noticed that, that kind of move of Paul from faith to the labor of love to then the hope obviously when he talks hope he's talking about the power of the resurrection, that coming day when love will be all that we know. The love of God will be infused through us, for us and to all of the cosmos on that great and glorious last day when he returns to make all things new. Have you wrestled with that kind of move of the Apostle Paul ever, greg?
Speaker 1:Well, not specifically with the letter to Thessalonians and that exegetical thing, but the good news is that's exactly what I see over and over again, with people that do what we give, that do what Jesus gave them to do. This is not a works righteousness, this is not a have to. This is not an earn something, gain something, prove something. Earn something, gain something, prove something. This is what happens. When I start to believe that I am loved by God abundantly in Christ because of Jesus, and then start living that out for the good of others, you start to see that is it work? Well, sure, it's work, but you're working anyway. Why not do something that's gonna bear fruit? And then you actually see the fruit and it gives you all the more hope that this is real right. And that gives you all the more hope that this is real right and that gives you all the more confidence that the other promises God has made in Christ oh yeah, we'll see those too, because we're seeing these being kept. But I think this is what my work with individuals and congregations. This is where the rubber hits the road. We understand it, we believe it, but we don't participate in it. So we have 80 year olds that have been going to church all their life, who still haven't been able to participate in the fun stuff. Right, because all we've done is we've discussed it, we've heard it, we've believed it, we've sung about it, we've prayed about it, but we haven't gone out and done something with it. And that's where you know dwelling 114 comes from John 114. The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. And one of the things that we remind people is you know, you're not Jesus, no one's going to mistake you from Jesus. But now, in Christ, through baptism, you got Jesus in you. And when you even have a little love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, get out through you it's from God, but it gets out through you then you're going to look a lot more like Jesus and those people are going to be benefited a whole lot more than if you just ignored them. And so we then, through death and resurrection of Jesus, we're redeemed or restored, baptism through, or the Holy Spirit in us, through baptism.
Speaker 1:Now what I tell people is we are now the word made flesh, not because we're Jesus, but because we got Jesus in us. And what people around us need is the word becoming active, tangible, experiential. There were 39 books of the Bible in play when Jesus arrived, and yet he was the word made flesh. We didn't need more words. God sent Jesus because we needed an example of what does it look like for a human being to live out these words?
Speaker 1:And we sometimes get distracted because Jesus, of course, was the son of God. So nobody can be a savior but Jesus. Distracted because Jesus, of course, was the son of God, so nobody can be a savior but Jesus. You know, nobody's gonna be raising people from the dead or watering the wine, but what we do have from Jesus is also being true man. And so when he was baptized, like you referred to earlier, that's exactly what's going on in our baptism, when we're going off and now seeking to live a life of love, humbly, under the father's leadership, and then confidently offering a little bit of what we've got.
Speaker 1:The results, the fruit, is God's alone right. That's why Jesus, when he went to Galilee or went to Nazareth, there wasn't much right. And then yet he goes to another place and shazam. You know, demons are fleeing and dead people are rising. What God does through it is his action alone, but that we participate in that humble lifestyle. Word made flesh. We're God's word being active, and so we forget that when we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism, we now have, as Paul says in Philippians two, we now have within us the, the will, and that we are able to will and act according to his purpose. Why? Because God's in us.
Speaker 1:Now what I need, though, is someone to disciple me, to show how to access that and let that out Right. I need somebody to show me what that I've got. It's like a little baby that is born with all the parts, but now I need my daddy, my mommy, to help me learn how to pull all that, pull all that together and walk or run or play the piano or play baseball. You know, I got all the parts, but I need and I got. I got the ability and the power, but I need somebody to help me pull it all together. That's the same thing in Christ.
Speaker 1:You have everything you need. You're already fully equipped. You just don't know what to do with the equipment. Right? You got love, you got joy. You got peace, you got. You got truth. Uh, now here's how we use it to benefit others, to serve others, and that's what Jesus did. Word made flesh. Now we got the word in us. We're the flesh body of Christ. People usually are a little more comfortable with that. We're the body of Christ and we are out there looking for people who need a little bit of what we got. Amen.
Speaker 2:Hey, I think the false dichotomy here is that this is kind of anti-liturgy for those of us that are Lutheran or anti-Sunday or something like that, and I don't. Nothing could be further from the truth. I mean, every single Sunday, when I get to gather and there's hundreds of people that I get the privilege of proclaiming the gospel, the forgiveness of sins, to, in my mind I'm seeing churches of various sizes I'm not even going to throw out but hundreds of missionaries who are out in my congregation, who are here to be mobilized, reminded who they are in their baptism. This is the liturgy right To know they're a sinner. They desperately need to hear the word of God. They need to hear the forgiveness of sins for you for sure and then they need to be shaped by the word of God through the proclamation, the hearing of the word of God. And then we need to live a life of prayer and obviously Jesus gives us his prayer. We need to be a confessing people. That's what the creeds are all about. We need to be reminded, taste and see the goodness of Jesus as we receive his body and blood. And then Numbers, chapter 6, we need to be sent out with the presence of the triune. God in and for us, through the blessing, the benediction. The Lord bless you and keep you. This is a presence of God for the people of God in the Old Testament we're living out the story of God for us.
Speaker 2:So the best part of the liturgy is actually modeling, mirroring my identity all the way to my sending the best parts of what a Lutheran liturgy is. So if we say it's simply about Sunday, just get people to Sunday. Yeah, we got to get people to Sunday. Just get people to Sunday. Yeah, we got to get people to Sunday. Why? So that we can train them and send them out into the mission field. Anything more to say about the connection between Sunday and Monday through Saturday?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, again, my job is to make it clear, simple, clear, simple. So people go oh, now I get it, now I can participate in it, and what I always say about that is hey, friends, that's what Sunday's for. Joining Jesus on his mission on Monday is what Sunday's for, it's what word and sacrament is for we do that. And then what? Sit on the bench and run out the clock till next Sunday, or sit on the bench and run out the clock till we die and go to heaven someday.
Speaker 1:No, I'm given all that abundance within the context of what we do on Sunday, and that's what it's for to go out and now I am filled up with good news and forgiveness, I'm reminded of who I am, and now I go out looking for people that need some more, a little bit of that, and then we go do it again next Sunday, and that's what it's for. So we love to have an illustration that shows what happens when people who are the church not just go to church, but are the church, go out and love their neighbors, and then those people go back to church. That is the gathering as a congregation word and sacrament, to celebrate it, receive it, be reminded of it, be refueled by it, and then we head back out and then we just see the love start to spread throughout that community, but only because we go home and get started. Not go home and wait till next Sunday.
Speaker 2:It seems simple enough. Um, the, the apostle Paul. He's such a hero of the faith. We've been kind of talking a fair amount about him in this podcast. He was trained like there were a number of years, I think some say like Paul was before he started doing his kind of missionary leadership, development, multiplying missions, starting churches, all of that kind of thing. He was under the apprenticeship of other disciples, as because it wasn't like, I think a lot of times you look at the apostle Paul, he has this crazy encounter with the crucified and risen Jesus and then he immediately boom like everything changes.
Speaker 2:No, there was character development that took place. He. He even needed, because he's a human being, to connect the dots between the prophets, law and the prophets all the way to who Jesus was, so that he could have the hope and the reason, the rationale to bring both the Jew and Gentile into the kingdom of God, to connect Jesus as the center person in all of human history. So let's talk about and you can go off on Paul if you like, but I really think it is the role of training for the leader. I'm seeing evangelism training, discipleship training, training around having Jesus-centered conversations. That's kind of the pool that you've been swimming in for some time, so talk about the role of training in inviting the everyday follower of Jesus out into his mission field.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think the main thing to realize is that in most cases, we don't need to know more. We need to do more with what we already know, and that's really what training is In many ways. I tell people hey, after our workshop, I'm probably not going to tell you anything you haven't already known and believed and even taught yourselves. But the one thing we are going to do is introduce this crazy little idea is how do we now go do it? And so, transitioning that that's as good as we can get with training in a room. After that it's all about hey, come with me, right, hey, come with me. And so when they were discipling Paul, if you will, training him, apprenticing him they weren't teaching him more about the 39 books of the Bible. He was a Pharisee of Pharisees.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, he knew, he knew his stuff.
Speaker 1:What they were doing is showing how, no, all this ends up being about self-sacrificial love right, not power, not know-how.
Speaker 1:And the other part I think that Paul had to learn. I think he was a very forceful personality. I mean he was leading gangs of people around rounding up Christians, right, and so how to how to humble that and use it as a servant. And you don't learn that through academics. You learn that through being with people that are humbly using power to serve others. And, and Paul saw that.
Speaker 1:Paul was given that, I believe, by Jesus, absolutely. But then, yeah, I need to see what it looks like being lived out. So Jesus with his own disciples right, he proclaims the good news of God, the time has come, the kingdom of God has arrived, repent, believe the good news. And then the very next thing he says is I know you don't know what you're doing, so come follow me. Now he doesn't say I know you don't know what you're doing, but the very next thing he says is come follow me. And that's because they had no idea what that meant. They were like yeah, now what does that mean? Right, I love it that God's kingdom has come, but now he's like come, follow me. Let me show you what it looks like to live in the reality of the kingdom that's coming and the will of the father being done. And so they went out and they saw it. They saw it, they saw the, the power of the gospel. They saw oppositions to the gospel too, but that that gave them confidence, that were. You know, you shake the dust off there and you go there because there's always going to be somebody ready for what we have to offer there, because there's always going to be somebody ready for what we have to offer. That is the good news of God. And so that's where, when we're talking about training, the way we set it up is we have a training workshop so people have clarity and simplicity about what the mission is and how they get to participate in it. And then they have a personal plan that they can then go home and start joining Jesus. And the congregation has a congregational plan for how we're going to support that, celebrate that and spur each other on for that.
Speaker 1:And then now they got the first part, but they are untrained yet, right, because now they have to go out and start to gain experience. And that means go out, give it a run, come back, let's talk about what happened. Go out, give it a run, come back and let's talk about what's happened and, if that plan is simple enough, love your neighbor as yourself, seek the kingdom, what God already been preparing ahead of time for you to see and do and then we have the rhythm of coming back together and talking about it. So, what did you see? Who did you love? What did you learn? What's your next step as that becomes the new rhythm? Now I take the preaching and teaching I receive, go put it into practice. Come back to that small group of people or that mentoring relationship with somebody and talk about what happened. What did I learn? What's next? That becomes the rhythm, then, and you see accelerated growth. Why? Because now they're not just thinking about it and writing down notes about it, but now they have stories and experiences, both good and boo-boos, that they now are learning from. And now they are being trained. They're gaining experience, skill and confidence in following the ways of Jesus for the good of others.
Speaker 1:And that's the main thing we're missing in the US church. We come, we hear it, we understand it by the power of the Holy Spirit, we believe it, and then we forget that. Oh well, he gave that to us so that we would go out and participate in it for the good of others. But when we have, you know, 80-year-olds, 8-year-olds, everybody in between, going, oh, that's right, I am loved, forgiven, and the Father delights over me, well, I'm going to go out and share that with others, because they don't know, they don't know that God loves them and delights in them. They think that God has no, you know, overlooks them or, worse, is kind of like Luther love God, I hate God, right, because he's always looking to have throw me into hell. And it's like oh, I got good news for you and that becomes a simple reality that we become very good at. Why? Because this is who we are, this is what we do.
Speaker 1:If I throw in all kinds of extra stuff, then I confuse people, I bog people down, I don't understand, it's not simple, it's not doable.
Speaker 1:But if it's simple and doable and I can do it over and over again, then that identity in Christ, that simple purpose in Christ, this is who I am, this is what I do. And then collectively as a congregation this is who we are, this is what I do. And then collectively as a congregation this is who we are, this is what we do. And when I walk in and I'm part of your gathering, whether it's for worship or whether it's a class or it's a gathering of youth. Wherever I walk in, I'm seeing that, oh man, these are a bunch of people that know they're loved by God and have stories about loving people out in the community. And that's who we are, that's what we do, and either I'm going to want to be a part of this or I'm like oh, this is freaking me out. No, thank you, but at least it's not just a bunch of people standing around with coffee talking about the weather, greg.
Speaker 2:I love it so much because Jesus loves me and I love him and his word. I mean listener, this is the way of Jesus Like, at its base form. This is what Jesus did. He called disciples, he mentored them, they got to watch and then they got to participate. Luke, chapter 9, the 12, luke chapter 10, the 70, 72 sent out and they come back. It's boomerang theology. They come back, they debrief, they need to be reshaped, recalibrated. Do they have pride and ego? That is going to get in the way, because they think they're a big deal, because they have all this authority, power, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, they need the humility, the love of Christ over and over again. But they need the humility, the love of Christ over and over again.
Speaker 2:But we have made it way too complex. We have intellectualized what it looks like to follow Jesus, and there's nothing against content, there's nothing against going deep in a certain theological tradition or systematic history. There's always more to learn. But if, at the end of the day, we think that we're closer to God based on the word, I guess, the theology, the strength, I guess, of our respective discipline, all the way up to a professor and a pastor, and we forget the simplicity of inviting others to come and follow us as we follow Jesus and then giving them the ability to participate and lovingly checking in with them. If we've, if we're not doing that in our churches, what? What are we? What are we? What are we doing?
Speaker 2:I don't know that that's the church right, cause the church is on mission to get all of his, all of his kids back. And I, you know, you and I happen to be in a church body where we have some opportunities for growth and I'll just, I'll just make a very, very straight statement. If pastors don't learn that they're there, yes, to bring word, yes, to administer the sacrament, but yes, to mobilize other people and to release them and find other men who can teach 2 Timothy 2.2 and bring them alongside in partnership with word and sacrament ministry, if there are pastors that think you're simply a doer rather than a developer, I don't know. I think you're missing the simplicity of the way Jesus did it and the way the early church did it. So, greg, final question here how does leadership development and that can be a big, scary term, but just raising up followers of Jesus, maybe apprenticeships under Christ, how does that sort of development work, all the way up to pastoral formation intersect with your missional strategy.
Speaker 1:Well, it's the thing that says whether this is going to be a short-lived small group flash in the pan or whether we are going to be unleashing a ongoing discipleship movement that people go and live a life of love to the ends of the earth. Uh, you know, in the, in the power of Jesus. Uh, because if, if, if, uh, uh, all we have, for instance, with with Jesus and the 12, if all he has was the 12, you know then that movement dies out with the end of the 12th. But they, he taught them, he discipled them in such a way that they knew the next step was to disciple others. It's not we, it's not just I disciple you, but I disciple you in such a way that you know immediately, not eventually, immediately you're replicating this with somebody else. You know your family, a neighbor, a coworker, so that it's a multiplication thing.
Speaker 1:Now one thing, just real quick, because we've been talking about it. We need to understand that our understanding of teaching is not the New Testament understanding of teaching. We think it's conceptual. Do you get it? Do you understand it, do you believe it? But that's not teaching in the New Testament. Teaching in the New Testament is rabbinic, which means it is culminated with a lifestyle that imitates the rabbi. And so when Paul is talking about teaching teaching what I taught you we got to add that with the other places where he's like, take note of my example, imitate me as I imitate Christ. There's a lifestyle that is described and revealed by, and empowered by, the word, but you can't that those words don't substitute for the lifestyle, right? That's why it's word made flesh. And so if I'm teaching from my pulpit, I gotta remember, I gotta. We're really good. There's three little phrases know what, so what? Now what? What do they need to know? Why do they need to know it? We're good at that. What does this mean for us, right, as Lutherans? So, know what, so what? But we're not done preaching until we start helping them understand the now, what, now that I know this, believe this. What is he giving me to believe and do? And likewise with seminary professors, sunday school teachers and everybody in between, we want to finish up the teaching by helping people realize what kind of a lifestyle does this teaching reflect and then send them out.
Speaker 1:So, in a family, we're learning how to model this lifestyle and what kind of a life? Well, it's going to be a live, a life of love. It's going to look like love, love and action. So don't get overly complicated. There's lots of ways that it's communicated in the Bible, but it ends up being the same thing. Who says so Jesus? Who says so Paul? Who says so John?
Speaker 1:Okay, so we got good verification of this, and so now, in a family, we can model the living it out. What did we hear? What is the Bible give us to believe and do? Let's go out, believe it and do it. And now we have children, we have adults, we have everybody in between getting better at this, because that's what Jesus said Come, follow me, I'll make you into fishers of men. You're not very good at it right now, but I will help you become better at it by my power. But I'm going to teach you how to get better at it by having you tag along for three years and imitate and replicate that with others.
Speaker 1:That's how, like you said, we get from Luke 8-1, they were with Jesus Luke 9-1, jesus sent them to Luke 10-1, where now we got 72 that he's sending. You know, that wasn't just the angel sprinkling disciple dust everywhere. It was an intentional replication so that more and more people caught on and got to do it and then, when you get to Luke 24, matthew 28, now go to the nations. But we're not going to have 12 people discipling millions of people. No, you disciple people. That then can disciple people, that disciple people until the nations are discipled to live this life of love and bring the redemption and good news of Jesus to everybody that needs it so badly.
Speaker 2:That sounds like Jesus apprenticeship, multiplication at work. And the days are too short for us, in whatever denomination you're a part of, to bicker argue over various points. Like we agree we've been justified by grace, through faith, and we agree that the Holy Spirit, in our baptism, has filled us individually and collectively to bring the love and light of Christ out into a dark and dying world To mirror what we've received from the person and light of Christ out into a dark and dying world to mirror what we've received from the person and work of Jesus. So this is I love listening to you, I love your passion, greg, I love your ministry. Heart Dwelling114,. If people want to get connected, how can they do so, greg?
Speaker 1:Dwelling114.org is the easiest way Contact page information. But let me help. Clarity and simplicity leads to people going, oh, I can get off the bench and get in the game too, and that's what we need. We need our folks. Give them clarity, simplicity and a plan so they get to get off the bench and get in the game and have their own stories, whether it's after eight years or 80 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen, amen. This is the Tim Allman podcast. Please like, subscribe, comment. Wherever it is you're taking this in, that really really helps. Uh, and hopefully this. There was a little bit of. Well, there was law and gospel in this conversation. If you're, if you happen to be, in a congregation where it's just a sit and get, rather get and go, and you're a pastor, maybe we ask for some help. And if you're an everyday follower of Jesus sitting in pews, encourage your pastor. I love that. From the now what to the so what? Or from the know what to the, so what to the now what, Now, what? Pastor, Give us that next step invitation to follow Jesus out into the world, Because he's obviously there, he's at work and he wants us to join him in his mission. Your books, if anybody, I'm giving you a first one right Joining Jesus on his mission. And what else have you written, Greg?
Speaker 1:Well, just the kind of the natural next step. So joining Jesus on his mission, and then joining Jesus show me how, which is discipleship, and then joining Jesus as a family, which pulls it all together so that parents, in a wonderful, simple way, can do that with their kids or grandkids. Uh, absolutely Just. If you start Googling joining Jesus, that's usually what comes up.
Speaker 2:So good. This is a Tim Allman podcast is a good day. Go and make it a great day. Grateful for you, greg. We'll see you, I think a best practice here very, very soon. Thanks for your generosity of time, though, buddy, amen.