The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
Leadership: Learn from experts across diverse fields as we explore how their insights can shape and sustain a healthy culture in the local church and beyond. Over 60% of listeners expressed a desire for practical discussions on cultivating thriving environments—and that's exactly what these conversations will deliver.
Learn: Engage in deep theological discussions with scholars who illuminate how Christ is revealed on every page of Scripture. Together, we’ll bridge theology to the realities of a post-Christian America, ensuring practical application for today’s world. This segment aligns closely with the themes of the American Reformation Podcast and resonates with the 60% of you who crave more exploration in this area.
Live: Discover healthy habits that empower leaders in all vocations to become holistically healthy. As followers of Jesus, we’re called to lead not only with faith but also with physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
Join Tim Ahlman as we navigate leadership, learning, and living with purpose, so you can lead with strength, wisdom, and a Christ-centered vision.
The Tim Ahlman Podcast
From Basketball Dreams to Community Impact: Josh Dotzler's Journey of Faith and Leadership
Josh Dotzler shares a compelling narrative of how purpose transforms lives through community revitalization and leadership development. His experience highlights the importance of addressing systemic issues while fostering local talent for lasting impact.
• Discusses the transition from sports to community service
• Explores the challenges of urban revitalization and systemic inequities
• Highlights the importance of empowering local leaders
• Discusses the impact of faith on community building
• Addresses societal stereotypes of urban communities
• Calls for holistic investment in relationships and leadership development
• Encourages collaboration between churches and organizations for greater impact
You know, when the spiritual becomes practical, it's powerful for those that are experiencing it, and so we have to, as leaders, I think, sometimes create practical runways to get people involved, as we're preaching Jesus, as we're giving them context. Man, this is how you can put that into practice, you know, on a consistent basis.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast. It's a good day. Jesus is radically in love with you and the joy of His Spirit the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, the fruit of His Spirit, I pray, is fueling you for a life of mission and ministry to look up and out, to see the fields are ripened to the harvest, to notice people today and to grow with humility and great, great joy. Today I get the privilege of hanging out with a brother that I just met. Had been referred to him. We have some ties, deep ties, in Omaha. I don't know why I'm thinking Peyton Manning right now, but Omaha Anyway.
Speaker 2:I'm a Denver Broncos fan but I get to hang out with Josh Dotzler and let me tell you a little bit about him. He's a spiritual leader, justice advocate, communicator and a CEO of Abide. I'll let him tell the story of Abide, a nonprofit mission focused on revitalizing the inner city of Omaha, one neighborhood at a time. He's used his voice on national and local level to ignite change, inspire individuals to use their God-given influence to seek God-sized impact. This is going to be a lot of fun today. He also is he's got a past in basketball. If you're watching on YouTube or wherever, he's got a Creighton jacket on played basketball at Creighton Sports has been a part of his story and this is going to be great. He also is. He has a wife named Jennifer and they have four children Josh, joseph, juliana and Jada. So two boys, two girls. That's pretty sweet. What are their ages, josh?
Speaker 1:So we got our oldest is going to be 15 this month actually, and then we go 13, 11, and 7. So the two girls are younger, two boys are older.
Speaker 2:Ah well, I love it. So thanks for generosity of time. You feeling good today, man Ready for a fun conversation of growth? Hey?
Speaker 1:feeling good. Tim, thanks for having me man, appreciate you just being a part. It's crazy just in connecting before we went live here, just hearing some of the connections and your time in Nebraska, concordia, playing some sports, and so it truly is a small world, but glad to be connected with you and your entire community today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. Well, yeah, the joy is ours. So let's talk. Let's talk sports. I love talking sports, maybe too much sometimes, people may say, but I think sports shapes us. You get on a team, there's going to be trouble, trial, conflict, adversity, perseverance, et cetera. It teaches so much to develop the young man or woman of faith, the character of Christ that comes alive in athletics. So talk about your athletic journey. You ended up playing your point guard at Creighton. You walked through some adversity. Tell that story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I mean, similar to you, sports was a huge part of my upbringing and I'm actually one of 14 kids and all of us played basketball growing up. My parents actually met in college. My mom's from Washington DC she's African-American, my dad's a white guy from small town Iowa but they both played basketball in college and that's kind of how they met. What college? It was a small school division, I think three Tarcheo College in Missouri that like no longer exists. But they, they met passionate and very competitive people and so we grew up in a very competitive environment. I'm the fifth child and so I've got some older siblings, but always played sports basketball.
Speaker 1:When I was young my parents started our nonprofit but you know, I thought basketball was kind of my ticket out of the Omaha area, out of the community we grew up in. So I played high school. We won a couple of state championships in high school. As a sophomore in high school I was recruited by three schools Creighton was one of them, nebraska and then Kansas back in the day when Coach Roy Williams was there, and so I went on a couple of unofficial visits, ended up committing to Creighton as a sophomore. At the time I was the youngest player to make a verbal commitment. Back then it was cool to commit early. Today you try to get as many offers as possible, but went to Creighton as a freshman. Was actually having a great freshman season, was starting almost every single game You're playing with freshmen.
Speaker 1:Wow, I played with some some really good players, guys like anthony toliver, who actually played in the nba for 14 years, um, some other guys.
Speaker 1:But my freshman year, with six games left, I tore my pcl and, uh, got tripped from behind, fell down, didn't kind of you know, know the implications of that, but would have surgery, try to come back too soon.
Speaker 1:And it was kind of you know, know the implications of that, but would have surgery, try to come back too soon. And it was kind of the beginning of the end of my basketball career and it was a really honestly, pivotal season in my life and God shifting my focus and him becoming more central to my life. But, man, the teams I played on, the relationships I built, creighton too. Being in a city like Omaha population around a million Creighton consistently is in the top 10 of attendance for basketball games, so we averaged over 15,000 fans a game, played in front of great crowds, played in the NCAA tournament, played with great players, and even to this day, a lot of those relationships that I've built at Creighton have supported our work, have been connected to what we're doing, and so that was basketball really helped me, you know, have experiences that I would have never had before. Taught me so much, so super, super pivotal in my story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's probably some grief there too, right Cause you're a young man and it just doesn't go. So you learn, you learn to grieve. And I mean I had the same thing. You eventually hang it up and I remember I wasn't hurt or nothing. I actually was obeying the call to go on and be a pastor, go to the seminary and do things like that, and gave it up at like 22,.
Speaker 2:You know, kind of being really, really competitive and you're like I think I could still do some stuff for a minute. You know, I was just starting my hitting, I was just starting to kind of come around as a, as a hitter and stuff, and it's like Nope, god takes away what could end up being being an idol. Right, athletics could definitely end up being an idol. I've talked to many professional athletes and that's where they end up going. Their whole identity is based on doing that, that sport, hearing the applause and it really, as I look back and I'd be curious to get your take, it was a, it was a blessing that God kind of took that away in that season. He's like all right, you learned, you learned enough, let's. Let's move on and uh, and really get about kingdom expanding work Anything more there about the grief of, of losing that, that idol, I guess.
Speaker 1:I mean it, it for me it was incredibly challenging to make that shift, and part of it through my injury. I went through three years of just honestly feeling like a failure on the court and, uh, from hearing booze to you know, hearing people say, man, we're ready for adults or to transition. So from an identity perspective, I mean it took me over five years before I could go back to a game because of some of the hurt and pain that I felt through that experience. Similar to you, I tell people, man, it can be a blessing to start to make that transition sooner than later in life, when you start to realize there's life after sports, there's life after athletics.
Speaker 1:Obviously a lot of great experiences and take it as far as you can, but you know, whether it's with my kids today siblings that I have I try to help them understand, which is what people try to help us do too. You know, understand there's life after sports. But until you go through your own experience sometimes you just don't get that, that revelation. So I actually recently wrote a book called Playing on Purpose and it's for young athletes, to help them maximize their potential on the court but also start to grow and develop habits, mindsets, just this purposeful lifestyle that can really affect and impact the world around them, and start to get to think beyond the basketball court. And so I have a passion to use sports for good but then to help people understand man. It's a platform, it's an opportunity for growth and trying to help people not, you know, athletes specifically not wrap their entire identity around it.
Speaker 2:No question, Are you? Are you connected as a coach? Are you coaching at all Young kids.
Speaker 1:So I coach my, I'm one of the coaches on my son's basketball team, and then I'll speak to some high schools, some college teams, and just stay connected to the game that way yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so people know I coach high school football. I was a special teams coach this last year. I hadn't been around X's and O's in like 20 years and now I'm second year into it and, man, it's a kick. It's just for a season, but coaching is pretty fun. So maybe, yeah, leave that door open as Joshua and Joseph get a little older. To be a part-time coach I found community outside of my church leadership role. That's just been man. It's been really life-giving. So, hey, let's talk about the inner city. Some of our listeners maybe rural, maybe suburban. My first five years of ministry were in the inner tier suburb of Denver. A lot of diversity, a lot of socioeconomic diversity. So how did you develop that dream for city transformation? That doesn't just happen. I think God puts you in a certain context and says, hey, be faithful with your story and help shape the story of this city. So tell that story, josh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it really started with my parents and my dad, like I mentioned earlier, white guy from a rural town, population 300 in Iowa.
Speaker 1:And so when you think about urban city transformation you don't think about it starting with a white guy from a rural town. But after they got married he was a chemical engineer out of college. They lived in the suburban context here in Omaha and he just felt like God was calling him to some sort of mission field. He didn't know where it was, it wasn't necessarily to the urban context in Omaha. If anything, he thought he was going to get called overseas somewhere and he would become an overseas missionary. And you know the way God kind of unfolds stories. He basically him and my mom, told God we don't want to live in North Omaha, which was our urban inner city, because of the crime, the violence, the poverty. And you know he didn't want to necessarily be a pastor. And God, through the story, he quit his job, sold their house. They had nowhere to go through a connection. There was a house that opened up in North Omaha and so they moved into that house, thinking it was going to be short term, and that was in 1989. And he tells the story in his book Out of the Seats Into the Streets. After moving into this neighborhood, they live next to an individual who is considered one of the biggest drug dealers in the community and they live next to across the street from another guy where my dad said he saw more police at that guy's house in two weeks than he had ever seen police in his entire life growing up in rural town Iowa. And so he just had all these experiences, saw all these challenges and knew he was supposed to be a part of the solution in some way. And that was really the genesis of our nonprofit Abide. And in the early years Abide A-B-I-D-E was an acrostic for a Bible. In daily experience it was really his heart. My dad and my mom were a part of this large church in our city and they felt like as Christians you know we shouldn't just show up on Sunday and worship and learn more about God's word, but we've got to put our faith in action. We've got to get out of the seats and into the streets and really make a difference. And so he spent a lot of his time in the early years bringing Christians on missions trips through outreach events to the inner city context, throwing vacation, bible school events. Block mean just by virtue of living in that neighborhood and seeing things started to develop, I would say a more holistic strategy for how to revitalize and transform an entire community. And I'll just say this In 2007, the neighborhood we were living in, the police actually redlined as one of the most violent neighborhoods in the city and we had been living there, our neighbors were murdered, our house was shot at.
Speaker 1:I mean, the stories that most people hear are the stories that we saw and experienced, which is why I wanted to leave the community and loved what my parents were doing but didn't want to be a part of it, and it was about 2007.
Speaker 1:My dad kind of shifted his approach from just kind of starting a lot of programs to really kind of this neighborhood approach that really built on the power of putting leaders in communities and in neighborhoods. We had renovated some homes, we moved some families into those homes, my parents had lived in that neighborhood, we started throwing community block parties and events, we had started a church and about two years later the police came back and said this neighborhood that was once one of the worst is now one of the best and whatever you've done in this neighborhood, let's take it to more neighborhoods. And ultimately, you know, it was really built again on the power of presence, we would say. When the people of God are present in places of need and places of challenge, the presence of God becomes a reality and those places start to change. And so our primary strategy is trying to empower the people of God in places of need and really giving them the tools and resources to be a part of that transformation.
Speaker 2:Bro, that's amazing. That sounds like what the church should be all about, right.
Speaker 2:Bringing the transformative presence of the crucified and risen Jesus in embodied form. We are the body of Christ, the voice of Christ, the love of Christ through our hands and feet and through our lips, and communities change. Let's get into the weeds a little bit. Of leadership development we were talking I'm connected to the Unite Leadership Collective. Leadership's a big deal. When leaders change, the org changes, when, when leaders are raised up indigenously in that community, they care for that community.
Speaker 2:Whether it's a, whether it's a, this is like hardwired into humanity, bro, you know, like whether it's your local church that you care about, your local community. Obviously, like I want to do something here. I've been put on planet Earth for this purpose to bring love and light to this dark, the darkness that's all around us, and people just need folks like you and it sounds like your organization to buy to say I see this in you, I see leadership potential in you. Let's fan that into flame. Let's fan that into flame. Let's be as as because discipleship is all apprenticeship, right? I mean as you're, as I'm following Jesus, you come and follow me and kind of learn it, and then we're going to do the I do you watch, I do you help. That whole continuum there, right? So is that a little bit of what it looks like to raise up leaders, local, to take more responsibility toward community transformation?
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. You know, when we talk about leadership, we a lot of times first talk about this idea of purpose, and you even use the word discipleship. And you know my dad's quest to find his purpose led him to this community, and purpose is all about. You know who God has made me to be and the impact I'm called to have in the world. In communities like North Omaha, the saying is work hard, get an education and you too can move out of the ghetto. And so to become a leader or to move up in life ultimately means to move out of the community. And so when you look at inner city urban communities, there's a lack of stability, there's a lack of consistency, there's a lack of leadership. Ultimately and John Perkins, he's the founder of the philosophy of Christian community development he talks about this idea. That, and Bob Lupton, they talk about this idea If you want to create a community, remove all of the capable leaders, or if you want to create an inner city, remove all of the capable leaders, or if you want to create an inner city, remove all of the capable leaders. And my dad, as a leader on purpose, moved into this community and he did what leaders do he started to try to find a solution to the challenges that he was seeing.
Speaker 1:And over the years, what we've seen is, you know, just like in our city, there's a gap between the poverty of our city and the prosperity. There's a gap between the poverty of our city and the prosperity. There's a leadership gap, and one of the primary reasons leaders aren't present is because of the challenges they face and the lack of resources provided to help those leaders thrive and grow and learn. And so just a very practical example my wife and I, we live in the community that we serve, but for many years I had to go outside of the community to get access to a fitness center where I could, you know, try to stay in shape.
Speaker 1:We have to go outside of the community to be a part of some sports programs for our son. We have to go outside of the community to find Christian education. And so the community doesn't provide the opportunities or resources for leaders, for individual families who are trying to grow and develop and thrive. They don't provide those resources. Right here in the community we access to those resources, and so part of our job and work is to really build bridges and break barriers, to try to bridge the gap between resources outside of our community and resources in our community. It's providing holistic discipleship for all the individuals that we're working with that ultimately leads to leadership development. Amen.
Speaker 2:What are some of the stereotypes? Leadership, development, amen. What are some of the stereotypes? I'm asking you to get to 30,000 feet or so, but stereotypes about ministry in the urban center that you're like. That's just not true. And I ask this with a little bit of context too, because we're just getting to know one another. I've been a part of a ministry called the Table. I helped start it, meal and worship inclusive of, but not exclusively for, the working, poor and homeless living in Denver. And then we've been connected to a ministry called La Mesa similar concept here over a decade now in Central Mesa and then in Central Tempe, in partnership with churches that are more in the urban center.
Speaker 2:And some of those stereotypes like well, they're all addicts or et cetera, you know they've just obviously messed up their life. My experience, our experience at La Mesa, is why does poverty come? And then addiction and some of the other struggles. Why does poverty come? It's a breakdown of relationship. You can say, first with the God of the universe, but then in family and in relationship, just the leaders, the father, the mother. That wasn't there, the stability when a kid made a mistake there's no margin for mistakes often in these families and they end up on the streets, vulnerable and Jesus still has a mission and purpose that's unplanned for their life. But, yeah, I guess the stereotypes that we in the upper middle class. It's just not true, man, they're people just like you are. They need to eat, they need love, they need community and they need that purpose and the church. If the church isn't there providing that higher calling, that higher purpose, man, we're really, really missing out, I think, on what it means to be a follower of Jesus. So is it? Yeah, break down some of those stereotypes?
Speaker 2:Is it just an absence of relationship Talk types? Is it just an absence of relationship?
Speaker 1:Talk there, josh. Well, I think when I hear you say relationship, what connects with me is it is generational and it's one generation to the next. You know, just from what I've seen being living here full time for the last 15 years with my wife and family and kids is, you see, a generation of kids growing up without a support system. You know, maybe a single parent, mom and no connection to a father, or they're growing up without a support system. You know, maybe a single parent, mom and no connection to a father, or they're growing up maybe with a level of support but lack of access to resources. They don't have the opportunities, whether it's afterschool, educational, recreational sports. You know people will ask me, josh, what does it take to to to help a kid in your community? What does it take to raise up a leader? And I always ask them the question what does it take to raise your son or daughter? Do you know? Do you know what the average price point is in a middle-class family to raise a child from zero to 17?
Speaker 2:It's like it's a lot. Is it 500,000? I don't know. I've heard different numbers.
Speaker 1:There's probably different numbers. One of the numbers that I saw through research was 350,000, on average, 350,000. And so think about, think about that. That 350,000 goes towards education, recreation, childcare, I mean you, you, healthcare, like you name it. That's a lot of money, a lot of resources.
Speaker 1:It takes a lot to develop a child, and so in our community, we can't expect one program, we can't expect, you know, one investment to create these outcomes that we're looking for.
Speaker 1:It takes this holistic. It takes a lot of money, a lot of resources to see the type of outcomes that we want. And so I think so many people in our community what happens, like you're saying, they're growing up in these environments, they're living in crisis mode. They make one bad decision as a result of the only thing they know, the only thing they've seen, what they naturally respond to do. It shifts the trajectory of their life forever and before you know it, you have a whole community of people living in poverty together, and so it takes a lot to get out of that. And so I think we see the outcomes, but the investment it takes, same with leadership man. It takes a lot of resources, it takes a lot of investment to develop a leader from our community because the starting point is so much farther behind than somebody maybe who's growing up or who has relational equity with other leaders and grows up in a leadership environment outside of our community relational equity with other leaders and grows up in a leadership environment outside of our community.
Speaker 2:That's just true.
Speaker 1:That's just very, very true so let's go down this pathway.
Speaker 2:Diversity, equity, inclusion I didn't actually include that in your bio, though it is in your bio. You've been a trainer and the reason I didn't honestly is because people may even stop, and honestly is because people may even stop. They hear that phrase. It becomes so politicized that we have no room for the conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion. Now, all cards on the table face up. I think that we need to focus on outcomes beyond diversity, equity. I think we need to focus on character, the character of Christ that supersedes the politicization that's taken place with a term like DEI, and right now I mean this is being recorded on February 3rd 2025.
Speaker 2:President Trump is back in office and he is setting an environment where businesses are actively canceling their DEI efforts and we can debate on how effective some of those efforts were in various businesses, etc. But you've spoken about this opportunity in your context and I think it's good to set the first 20 minutes of this conversation. You train out of your context and you see inequity in your context. Your context and you see inequity in your context and when we talk about it's not the same outcomes because they're starting in different places. That's just true and it doesn't mean so I'm just putting everything out.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean that merit-based hard work isn't a thing, right? Meritocracy is a real thing. We should still care about merit, right? That we're not. I think that's a that's a false dichotomy, that we think that diversity, equity, inclusion and then merit are at odds with one another. No, I think they're complimentary. I'd love to get your take on that, bro. So thanks for thanks for entertaining that, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, well, you know there's a lot of things to talk about and digest in what you're saying. I think you know, first and foremost, we can take any word, term or idea and we can create it and make it into something that maybe it originally wasn't intended to be. I mean, I just think, as you're using the language DEI, I think of the term and language we use, christianity. I mean, I think of the term and language we use, christianity. I mean we live today, we live in a post-Christian culture, and so language like that, you know, can be politicized, taken out of context DEI.
Speaker 1:For me, I can't help but be a part of any conversations about that, because I'm half black, half white. My wife is half Mexican, half Thai white. My wife is half Mexican, half Thai. My parents grew up and when my dad asked to marry my mom, they said no because he was white. And so you know, he started to learn about some of the challenges that the black community faced historically and that my mom's parents face. He started to understand that my mom's siblings couldn't swim in the same swimming pool as other white kids in that community and how my mom was a part of the busing system for desegregation, and so so much of that has been a part of our story, and what we've learned in the process is we all have a lens that we see the world through. We all have a worldview based on my experiences of growing up in the urban inner city context. There are kids that don't have the same opportunities as other kids, and in our city in Omaha, nebraska, which has been considered one of the most segregated cities in the nation over the years, the black community and the Hispanic community are also the impoverished communities and are the communities that don't have as many resources. And so you look at some of those statistics, you look at the reality of the way our city's broken up, you realize there is, and there has been a gap, and Jesus talked about it all throughout scripture the Jews, the Gentiles, the slaves I mean.
Speaker 1:The story of the good Samaritan is a prime example when, when, when the Jew asked man what is most important, jesus said to love your love, lord, your God, with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. And the Bible says he wanted to justify his answer, and so he says well, who is my neighbor? And then we know the story and how it ends and this idea of compassion and how compassion led to the action that he took. And so we would say this when you have a personal experience, when you're proximate to some of the challenges, you have a level of compassion that moves you to action and says I got to be a part of the solution.
Speaker 1:And I think the opposite is true. When we're at a distance of people who are different than us and we don't know their story and we don't understand where they come from, it's easy to judge, it's easy to you know, share and carry a certain narrative, but something happens. When we get close to people who are hurting, again we understand, you know how they got to where they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, geez, 100% true. And I could, because I live in a suburban context here in Gilbert Arizona. Oh, that's our school starting our day right now. Let me stop that. Anyway, it is. It is a challenge. I talk about La Mesa, it's a challenge. It's probably we're probably 2,500 in our community kind of thing. You know, I bet 10% of our church and we always make the encouragement has experienced life and a story connected to La Mesa or Marina.
Speaker 2:There's just something about the other that is just, oh, I pull back, I'm uncertain, I don't know how to engage. What I say, what we say, is just go and eat and hear a story, share your story. It's as simple as that. And it does develop that compassion that I would say leads to action. That's very, very true. And Jesus crosses everything. Like you can't look at Jesus and see how he is I'll just use, because we love right and left, right, right and left. He is like right down the middle, crossing every single boundary to reach Jew, gentile, slave, free, young, old, rich, poor. Galatians 3, 28,. Right, I mean, it's just so amazing. And this is what was so shocking about the early church. Like you want us to go there. You see the apostle Paul's like call, like he's so frustrated with his Jewish brothers and sisters because they're the people of the promise, et cetera, but now he has this call to cross every single boundary to take the and it did all the way to Rome at the end of the book of Acts right.
Speaker 2:We often today think we don't understand how cross-cultural Christ was and then the early church was and how the apostles actually strategically were spread across the known world, even to the point of, like, losing their life because they would say Jesus is Lord rather than Caesar is Lord, et cetera. And it was messy, you know, it was remarkable. You just look at the book of like Corinthians. Corinthians is remarkably messy and you've got a dude steep sleeping with a step. I mean, it's just all sorts of mess, cross-cultural mess. And and Paul is writing, I'll lay on this plane Paul is writing reactively to what is what the Holy Spirit is already doing cross-culturally, carrying the message of the crucified and risen Jesus to the world. And we in the West, I would say in the majority culture, we want to control and have a plan and strategy and like it's just not the way, it's circuitous, man, it's gray Ministry and life is in the gray, and the more we recognize so like I am fundamentally flawed.
Speaker 2:I have been born with sin, and that sin one of the best metaphors for sin is man or woman turned in, like my natural nature until christ comes and makes me his own is be turned in on myself, and so confession is saying that is that is true, and now I have been crucified with christ, I no longer live. He lives within, and so now I move to arms hands wide, open abundance. God, where are you at work in the world? Because I know you are and I want to partner with you. I want to meet you there and I want to meet the people that you love who don't know your love. Right, anything more to add to that, josh?
Speaker 1:Well, I just one of the things we talk about is Christianity first starts with us inviting Jesus into our hearts. We we confession, you know, because we are sinners, because we're turned inward, because we're self-focused, we have to be saved from our sin. And so it starts when we invite Jesus into our hearts. But then we would say the second part of Christianity is Jesus wants to invite uh, he, he, he wants to invite us into his heart and he wants our hearts to break for the things that break his heart. He wants our hearts and our vision to see what he sees the brokenness in the world, the challenges in the world.
Speaker 1:And so that's why the Bible talks about, you know, true religion is caring for the widows and loving and feeding the poor. And so we would just say this too not everybody's called to live in the inner city, urban context, not everyone's called to be an overseas missionary. But, as Christians, all of us are called to live on purpose, which means we get to be a part of the solution to our city's challenges in some way, shape or form, and without getting close to or proximate to some of those challenges you know, in your context, la Mesa, in our context, north Omaha without getting close to some of those challenges, our heart will never break for the things that break the heart of God. And Jesus was constantly in proximity to people who had needs and who had challenges. And so I think for us, as Christians, the call is that we've got to get the heart of God by getting close to people who can help us get the heart of God.
Speaker 2:Amen. I had no idea that Omaha had a long history of segregation. Yeah, that's a new learning for me. I live in, you know, phoenix is a young city in comparison to many of our Midwest cities and the racial pocket we don't have as much of that here. Well, more of a melt spot. Everybody's just kind of coming together. There may be, you know, some communities, but certainly not like a Chicago which you hear about the racial segregation way more in a city like Chicago. So tell, tell. I mean, how does a certain community become like this is where the black community, this is where the Hispanic community? It just doesn't in my mind. Because I know, like racism just blow. I'm just going to stop Racism like blows my mind. You know what I'm saying. Like it doesn't. I understand it. I was a history major, I understand it historically, but as a Jesus follower I just don't. I don't know how we could possibly justify it.
Speaker 2:So tell the story of segregation in Omaha, Josh.
Speaker 1:Well, I think Omaha, again for me, represents cities across the country and every city you know to varying degrees, but ultimately you know. When the laws were changed, when slavery was no longer a reality, there were other laws that were put in place to keep certain resources from groups of people, specifically the black community, and so redlining was one of those things that happened in cities across the country where there were literal redlining was one of those things that happened in cities across the country where there were literal red lines that were drawn around certain parts of the community where the blacks lived, where they couldn't have access to resources to purchase homes and to start to create wealth for their families, and so, like in Omaha, if you look at where the redlining happened, that redlining pretty much is a picture of what's termed as the inner city. Now, what's interesting is, 10 years after redlining happened, the term inner city became popularized by a politician and the term inner city started to describe what this part of the community looked like that had been redlined 10 years earlier. And so again I realized this everybody's not a part of creating these laws. Typically, it's a certain select few, a small majority that's creating these laws, but it affects a large group of people. And so in Omaha, if you look at, one of the things that we show is a murder map and we have red pins that show all of the murders, the homicides that have happened in our city over the last 35 years. Over 75% of those homicides have been in formerly redlined areas, and so what we say is those red lines have led to red dots. Those red dots represent poverty, those red dots represent fatherlessness.
Speaker 1:I mean, in our city, again, there's this stark picture. Let's say somebody, a good family, moves to Omaha, nebraska. Do they want to move into a neighborhood that's safest or one that's going to be, you know, in crisis? Do they want to move into a neighborhood that's going to have the best school district or the worst school district? Do they want to move into a neighborhood that is going to housing prices are going to be at an all time high? So, just naturally, what happens is is we move into cities and we make decisions based on what's best for our family, which isn't all bad, but the gap continues to grow and we, you know, our kids, grow up in these environments that are very disconnected to the challenges of other individuals. Same city, completely different realities, and again, every city has varying degrees of this. In Omaha it's very stark. I mean Omaha in 2020, it was highlighted just through conversations and relationships I have.
Speaker 1:It was so bad People actually think of black and poverty as one in the same. It was so bad People actually think of black and poverty as one in the same Because Omaha doesn't have a thriving, diverse community. That's outside of kind of the impoverished context, whereas in some cities larger cities, east Coast, west Coast there's a lot more diversity at a bunch of different socioeconomic levels I mean just leadership levels. In Omaha, it's not the case, and so you had a lot of Christian pastors and leaders who literally thought all minorities lived in poverty, and I think that's the other misnomer for us. You talked about what are some of the misperceptions. Well, in our city and I think across the board, it's changing a little bit, but you look at some of the DEI stuff.
Speaker 1:We believe that some of the best and brightest leaders can come from minority communities. They're indigenous leaders. But when you haven't had the opportunities, when you don't have the relational equity on a larger scale, when you haven't had the same leadership opportunities as maybe somebody who is equal to you, you're not going to become the world-class leader that you could be. You're not going to lead a thriving organization.
Speaker 1:I'll just speak to this man as a young leader, one of the challenges I wrestle with. I've led a church. In this context, I'm looking at other leaders who I would say, man, we're very similar and they've got quadruple the numbers that we have in terms of people showing up but, more importantly, finances and and it is hard to build a, a stable, let alone thriving church in the urban context because the resources aren't here in the urban context, because the resources aren't here. And that causes me, as a minority leader, to question my capacity, to question my leadership, to question my ability, instead of also recognizing.
Speaker 1:Man, there are some real challenges. I can tell you this, tim, I'm working just as hard as anybody else, man, I'm getting up early, I'm taking care of myself physically, I've been going to leadership conferences since the sixth grade. I'm digesting books, I'm having you know what, I'm saying Like, I'm doing all these things. But, man, some of the challenges that I'm facing in my community are very different than some of the challenges in other communities, and that's not to say I just want to be clear about this that's not to say there are people far from God all over our city that need to be reached. But as a leader, when you're building an organization, there's just some different challenges that you're overcoming in that urban context that's just truth.
Speaker 2:So how is the local church responding to this? Um cause, I'm connected to King of Kings there in Omaha and and you know those guys and I know their hearts Like I'd, I'd like to think that a lot of the maybe not inner city churches are wanting to invest, you know, not just with people, but resources, into what you're doing at Abide. Tell that story, josh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say one of the only reasons we've been able to do what we do apart from God has been the investment of other churches and Christians in our city. One of our values is better together, and that's something that we really we talk about, we lean into, we believe in, and so over the years, we've been fortunate. The church is like King of Kings. They've done everything from helped purchase and renovate homes that we've turned into lighthouses in our neighborhood. They've helped invest in campus programs. They've invested in leaders. We've been fortunate to collaborate with a lot of churches over the years. But I will say this Barna studies show that post 2020, churches and Christians are less excited to get involved in justice issues in urban context, because you know in my mind, the challenges that have also come with it. I think, more than ever, with some of the racial conversations, even with some of the political stuff around DEI, you know, things became so political that churches felt like they it was almost a lose-lose situation whether they were engaged, not engaged. Should they speak up, should they not speak up? And so I also I would say up, should they not speak up? And so I also I would say found that a lot of churches kind of went neutral for the sake of the conversations that they've been leading. And so we have a lot of great relationships with a lot of churches, pastors, leaders who are doing a lot of great things. I would say more than ever I realized some of the challenges that they're up against as leaders leading congregations.
Speaker 1:I'll just share this one story.
Speaker 1:I heard John Perkins I mentioned his name earlier.
Speaker 1:He was an African-American. He is an African-American leader who started kind of the Christian Community Development Association, worked in the inner cities. He tells a story of a church, a mega church, that he was working with this pastor and he was trying to get this mega church to partner with him, to work in his community. And this goes back I don't know if this was the seventies, I mean this was years ago but ultimately, as he was working with this pastor, this mega church pastor was having such a hard time convincing his church that they should be engaged in this inner city predominantly black context, this mega pastor ended up taking his own life. Oh my, and it just stood out to me in the sense of like I understand there's real challenges pastors face when it comes to meeting the needs of their congregation versus meeting some of the needs of the city, and I think that's a tension that a lot of pastors you know they live in that tension and ultimately you lean towards your congregation because that's the immediate context that you're called to.
Speaker 2:Wow, you said a lot there. I'm in a confessional conservative Lutheran congregation and I don't know how many Lutherans you've hung out with, but we should be some of the and I don't know if best is the right word but most open toward caring for the other. Because our theology at its best is like, filled with mystery and tension, now and not yet. Saint and sinner, the inbreaking of the kingdom of God, here and now, but then the return of Christ. And so the heart of the Reformation some 500 years ago was let's just get back to the basics, by grace, through faith, not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2, 8 through 9. And now we're carrying out as Christ's workmanship, his love. He's got work for us to do out in the community, not to prove anything to God he couldn't love us any more than he does right now but to live out the inbreaking of the kingdom of God as we're the hands and feet of Jesus, out into the community to the least lost, alone and the vulnerable. And let's just look at the life of Jesus. So all that to say because I'm one of those larger church pastors or whatever. We just focus on Jesus, bro. Let's just get to the story of Jesus. Put yourself in the shoes of the Samaritan woman at the well as she's, this outsider that Jesus brings near and reveals everything in her life, and yet she goes and is the first evangelist. Let's just tell what I've seen is like when we tell more of the Jesus stories and awaken people's imagination and place themselves there in those stories. Their heart for the other, wherever it is, always gets, always gets open.
Speaker 2:You know so, I don't. You can't pin our churches down as right or left or blah. You know this kind of thing, no, no, no, we're Jesus people and there are so many words like DEI or justice, and you kind of just say that God is a God of justice between love and justice. Right, we should fear and love God. Right. And where there are broken parts in our community, in us, outside of us, god wants to use us to be his hands and feet to bring wholeness, I guess individually and systemically.
Speaker 2:And I guess when you start talking about systems, I'm a systems guy. We talk about the culture and I want to get into how you're leading at Abide, like that's going to be the second part of our conversation here. But we talk the systems of interconnected relationships. You can't deny that human beings are built for relationships and interconnected relationships that are very, very messy. That lead us, hopefully, to look more and more like Jesus and less and less like a divided political world in which we find ourselves right now. So yeah, I've wrestled with that. That breaks my heart, man, to think of a pastor who would feel so torn that he can't talk about partnering with a group like y'all or going into the inner city that he gosh, did he take it?
Speaker 1:That's really, really sad, and I would say this a lot of times too. Talking about it is one challenge, but then, at the end of the day, we all only have so many resources to invest Well, that's true and people and finances, and so I think that's where, I would say, more of the tension is. The rubber meets the road. But I would say this too Systems like some of the systems of segregation that have led to where we are today.
Speaker 1:You know, I love the story of Jesus and the woman at the well, and he goes to Samaria and he interacts with her, and there was a whole system that he intercepted. And we would say, systems are changed one story at a time. That's right, and that's what Jesus shows us. But Jesus was intentional to go to Samaria or to go to where that woman was. And so sometimes, you know, for us, part of our job and our work is to provide practical opportunities for people to get in the game, get next to brokenness and start to have those experiences. You know, when the spiritual becomes practical man, it's powerful for those that are experiencing it, and so we have to, as leaders, I think, sometimes create practical runways to get people involved, as we're preaching Jesus, as we're giving them context, man, this is how you can put that into practice, you know, on a consistent basis.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. Hey, let's last 15 minutes or so, man, let's talk just your leadership at Abide. Tell us the vision of Abide, kind of the team that you're helping to oversee, because it really is. We're only as healthy as the team of people that we bring around us, right? So tell that vision, tell about your team and how do you hold your team kind of accountable? You got a complex thing going on, man. We just heard bits and pieces of it, but yeah, you carry, you're spinning a lot of plates, you know in your role. So, yeah, talk about your vision and your team there, josh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, our vision, I would say as an organization, there's twofold. One of it, one side of it, is to see, we would say, every person, experience and be on purpose, experiencing the power of purpose. We think when Christians live on mission, lives are changed. And so one side of our work really focuses on mobilizing the church, empowering Christians to understand and live on purpose. And then the other side of our work really looks to help every person in this part of our city have every opportunity to reach their full God-given potential. And so it's really holistic discipleship and we focus on three areas neighborhoods, children and youth programming and then leadership development. And so our neighborhood strategy is really about infiltrating the neighborhoods that the police would consider as the most challenging, the most violent, putting people in those neighborhoods through what we call lighthouses, renovating homes. We've, over the course of the last 16 years, we've renovated 49 lighthouses and empowered people to live in those. Over the next four years we want to renovate and empower 50 new lighthouses with people in them. So we would have 99 lighthouses in these neighborhoods, uh, in the next four years. So in in neighborhoods, that's part of our vision.
Speaker 1:On the campus, so we purchased what used to be called the Nebraska school for the deaf in in the center of our urban context. It's 24 acres, um, you know, 11 different buildings. It was built like a mini small college campus. There's gymnasium, fitness center, school, education center, and so our dream is to continue to develop out spaces on this campus to provide holistic discipleship and programming for children, youth and families. We partner with also given on the season, about 18 different organizations on campus to help provide some of that programming and discipleship. So that's kind of the vision on the season about 18 different organizations on campus to help provide some of that, some of that programming and discipleship. So that's kind of the vision on the campus.
Speaker 1:And leadership I mean we want to raise up world class leaders from and for the world's challenging, most challenging communities, and so we really want to be known. We know that leaders ultimately live in the neighborhoods. Leaders lead the programs that we have on campus and in our community, and so we have a huge passion and bent to really be the type of people who are raising up those types of leaders. And so we've got a small team right now, a team of about 20. In different seasons We've had, you know, more give or take. We partner with a lot of different organizations in the city and we're trying to be and build a world class organization.
Speaker 1:That's probably one of the things that we're really passionate about as an organization is, you know, a lot of times in communities like ours, you can get away with being average or OK, or people are just happy that you're doing something, being average or okay, or people are just happy that you're doing something. We don't want to just do something. We want to change the narrative, we want to change the story, we want to really empower people in our community, and so we try to pursue this. You know, level of of world-class, excellent culture and, uh, we, we just believe Jesus was the best leader who ever lived, and we want to develop more leaders that look and act like him.
Speaker 2:What's your training look like for that? What's the combination between like apprenticeship and actual like, maybe classroom experiences Go ahead?
Speaker 1:So over the years it's taken on different forms. There's certain conferences, like the Global Leadership Summit.
Speaker 2:We've been very actively a part. I knew you were into GLS. We're GLS kind of fanatics here. Yeah, we love it.
Speaker 1:So my first GLS was when I was in the sixth grade have been very connected there so we've been there personally. My dad used to raise $60,000, take leaders from our community there. Today we host it on site. We're hosting our first leadership conference. We've done smaller ones but kind of a larger leadership conference here in May. We've got leadership lunches about every other month. We've got several books and leadership curriculum. We're actually this year going to officially start a leadership school in the fall and so we've had internships, kind of residencies. But we really have a vision to really create a school, a multi-year school, where people are living, staying on site and then, you know, either staying here and or going to other communities around the world to serve the underserved. And so we're doing more to formalize what we've done over the years, just so we can create a larger pipeline and stream of leaders that are coming through.
Speaker 2:What's your current budget? I'm sorry to get into the weeds here, just curious what's your current budget?
Speaker 1:Yeah, depending on the year between operations and capital, you know three to five million, depending on how many projects we're going after, depending on, you know, projects on campus and or houses that we're renovating.
Speaker 2:What's the budget gap between what you need, what the vision is going to require?
Speaker 1:Depends on the year. But I mean we can go from 200,000 to 400,000, depending on the year. But I would say, you know, in terms of where we want to go? Yeah, that's what I was asking.
Speaker 2:I'm more about like what is, what's the future look like, and what's that dollar amount? Dollar amount, yeah, I mean, it's probably an annual budget of closer to 10 million.
Speaker 1:10, yeah, and that doesn't include capital improvements, but that is more of the operational budget, of what it would look like moving forward hey.
Speaker 2:So our god owns it all. Uh, he can do exceedingly more than we ask, think or hope or imagine. Right, so there may be somebody listening. That's like I want to see city revitalization in Omaha that could be a model that leads toward inner city revitalization in other urban centers. Like someone could write a check right now for $10, $20, $30 million, right. So there could be billionaires that are listening to this, that want to have some kind of significance. There's a lot of billionaires in our world today and man, if the Lord captures their heart, the amount of kingdom impact and partnership with local churches and with nonprofits like Abide it is exponential I've heard.
Speaker 2:I just want to commend you, man, the work that you're doing, your labor of love, multi-generational. I can only imagine because I'm a guy with big dreams here to see multi-sites leadership development that changes local churches, view of where leaders come from. I'm way into local cross-cultural leaders, indigenous leaders being raised up. We got a lot of things that we're overlapping with. I do know that when you have big, big dreams like that, you can, and I believe God puts that in people. There can be points, maybe last question or there can be points and you're like what, god, why'd you do that to me? Like this is a cross, this is hard right, maybe even a sense of the imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:I talked to different leaders that are like, oh man, I don't even know that I can sustain the level of energy that it's going to be necessary to see this thing happen. This is the way I've kind of, I guess, wrestled with it and come to peace with. What God has done to me is that I don't have to see all the results right now. I just got to be faithful one day into the next day, pouring into people who are, who will pour into people, and God will take care of the results and I don't need to. It's probably the results of what God does is probably going to happen long after I'm with the Lord, you know, in paradise with Jesus, like, so I don't need, I've surrendered. I guess the desire to see everything's got to be changed, like right now it's like, oh, it's a long game guess the desire to see everything's got to be changed, like right now.
Speaker 2:It's like oh, it's a long game, god's been in the long game with me and with all of a broken creation and so just be faithful in your season. Is that kind of the way you're posturing your heart, josh?
Speaker 1:Well, I would say, Tim, you're a much better man than I am. Uh, I know that intellectually, but sometimes that's really hard in the sense of I want to see certain things happen. I always tell people, man, I want to be 10 years ahead of where we are, and, uh, so that makes you a leader.
Speaker 2:That's normal dude Like that's just the wrestle that just is what it is.
Speaker 1:I was going to say I definitely wrestle with that tension all the time of wanting to be farther ahead but also recognizing man, my job is to be faithful. I remember when we purchased this campus. You know, a lot of people said this campus was too big for our organization back then, and so we purchased it and God provided the resources for us to get it, but then it had a lot of challenges and almost every board meeting the board members were saying man, you got to get rid of that thing. And it was just. It was a time of wrestling between God, man.
Speaker 1:I felt like this was the vision you called us into, but it doesn't seem to be working out and it felt like the blessing had become a burden. And so there's been all these peaks and valleys, highs and lows, but in the end you know, whether it's this campus, whether it's other things, they're also a monument of God's grace, his goodness, his faithfulness, and that, as in first Corinthians, like I read recently, god uses the foolish things, the shame, the wise, and so, just recognizing man, God does things that we could never imagine and I've got to continue to lean into what he's saying and doing, and not all the time what I'm wanting or what other people are saying and doing. So that's been a part of our journey over the years.
Speaker 2:Josh, this has been so much fun. Man, you're a gift. I can't wait to meet you someday in person. Thank you for the generosity of time and I'm going to be praying for Abide, you and your leadership and your vision to see city transformation in Omaha and the ripple effect that it could have beyond Omaha. People want to connect to Abide and you personally. How can they do so that it?
Speaker 1:could have beyond Omaha. People want to connect to Abide and you personally. How can they do so? Yeah, they can check out AbideOmahaorg as our website, social media channels Abide Omaha too, and my social media channels Josh Doetzler and joshdoetzlercom. So any of those, tim? Thanks for having me, bro. It was really good connecting with you, meeting you. Hopefully we get to connect in person sometime and keep up the great work.
Speaker 2:Likewise. Well, I'm sorry for messing. I always mess up people's last names and that's a frustrating thing. All right, dotzler, next time I'm going to nail it. Anyway, this is a joy. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. We'll be back with another episode of the Tim Allman podcast next week. Jesus loves you. Let's go on mission to make him known in our respective cities and neighborhoods. God bless. Thanks, josh Yep.