The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
Leadership: Learn from experts across diverse fields as we explore how their insights can shape and sustain a healthy culture in the local church and beyond. Over 60% of listeners expressed a desire for practical discussions on cultivating thriving environments—and that's exactly what these conversations will deliver.
Learn: Engage in deep theological discussions with scholars who illuminate how Christ is revealed on every page of Scripture. Together, we’ll bridge theology to the realities of a post-Christian America, ensuring practical application for today’s world. This segment aligns closely with the themes of the American Reformation Podcast and resonates with the 60% of you who crave more exploration in this area.
Live: Discover healthy habits that empower leaders in all vocations to become holistically healthy. As followers of Jesus, we’re called to lead not only with faith but also with physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
Join Tim Ahlman as we navigate leadership, learning, and living with purpose, so you can lead with strength, wisdom, and a Christ-centered vision.
The Tim Ahlman Podcast
What Are the Essential Characteristics of a Pastor? with Reverend Dr. Bill Diekelman
The episode explores the core characteristics of effective pastoral leadership, emphasizing the need for confidence in faith and strong emotional intelligence. Bill discusses the importance of knowing congregants by name and engaging them in ministry, highlighting the dangers of clericalism and advocating for a culture where all believers actively participate in nurturing their faith.
• Characteristics of pastoral leadership: confidence in faith, strong communication, and care for congregants
• Emotional intelligence as a vital skill for pastoring
• The significance of knowing names to build community and connection
• Empowering the priesthood of all believers to participate in ministry
• Critique of clericalism and its impact on the church
• Jesus as the ultimate model of servant leadership and engagement
Bring the Word of God to them in such a way that they are fulfilled number one in their own faith, that they are confident that they can go ahead and do something, that they don't need to rely on the pastor that they know. I don't know how many times we've heard this over the years. I would say something to somebody, but I don't think I know enough about the Bible. You're never going to know enough about the Bible. Just go, trust the Holy Spirit in your life. He's going to give you the words to say he's going to move your hands in the way that they need to be moved. Let's just get to work together.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast. It's a great day to be alive. The joy of Jesus is your strength as you lean into a conversation today with a leader in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod that I have respected from afar and, from time to time, close up in life and ministry. I have Reverend Bill Dickelman today. Let me tell you a little bit about Bill. In 2023, we were just talking about this before he hit play Bill celebrated his 50th ordination anniversary after serving as pastor at St Mark in Elko, nevada, and Faith in Ossawa, oklahoma.
Speaker 2:While serving as pastor at Faith, bill also served as the Oklahoma district president back in 1991. That was a great year. I was 10 years old Until his election as first vice president of the LCMS in 2004, an office he served in as first vice president until 2010, partnering with Reverend Dr Jerry Kieschnick in those years. Carol and Bill are proud parents of six kids, 14 grandchildren and in their retirement, Carol and Bill make San Diego and St Paul Lutheran Church in San Diego their church home. So how are you doing, bill? I'm excited for this conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so am I. I'm doing just fine, tim, glad to be with you this morning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is going to be fun, all right, so let's talk pastoral leadership. Pastoral leadership. As you think about pastoral leadership, what are the top I don't know two or three characteristics you're looking for in a pastor who takes leading the flock of Christ seriously. What are two or three of those characteristics, bill?
Speaker 1:You know, before I get into that, on Saturday, just two days ago, we installed at St Paul's Church a new senior pastor, hey Nate House. Our former pastor Jim Henkel had been there for 20 years and the pastor Richard Alsing before him had been there 23 years.
Speaker 2:I don't know what happened before that.
Speaker 1:Anyway, we installed Reverend Nathan Hausch as the senior pastor on Saturday and I think just in a little bit that I know about Nathan right now he displays these qualities that I think are important, In no particular order. I think a pastor needs to be confident about his own faith and be able to explain it, to demonstrate it, to live it, to let me know, as somebody said in the pew on Sunday morning, that this guy actually believes what he's talking about, and I think that a pastor needs to be able to communicate that well. More than just words, it needs to be demonstrated in everything that he does.
Speaker 2:Hey, let's pause right there, bill. Let's pause on that one and maybe pause just a bit on these two or three characteristics. Have you been in I mean, you've been around different churches over the years in your kind of district role and synodical role, right, it kind of is mind blowing to me, but I know Satan works and Satan wants to steal, kill, destroy and put doubts, etc. Like how could a pastor serve, preach, teach without confidence in their faith? That seems to be like it has to be core. Have you experienced, like churches and pastors, that you're like I don't know if this guy actually believes what he's saying. Have you actually experienced that?
Speaker 1:I have experienced yes, I have an answer to your question and I have had the opportunity and not bad opportunities, by the way to sit down with pastors who have said to me I don't believe what we teach about baptism, and the end of that conversation was you know, you can't continue to be a pastor in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, which they did not, and they had the integrity to resign.
Speaker 1:But I've had other conversations with clergy who said you know, I don't believe our confessional stance and I can't bring up the instances right now that pastor left and joined the Roman Catholic Church. On the clergy and I've experienced that several times, one pastor left for the Greek Orthodox Church and felt that he was more in line with that theology. Some just left the ministry because they said I don't believe what I'm preaching about anymore. My word's not theirs, but ultimately that was the end of the conversation and these people did it with integrity. They were upfront about it. We had some of those conversations were you know, more than one. It went on for a little while, but that was the conclusion that we mutually agreed.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, crisis of conscience. And when you're in a role like ours that is a public office role, yeah, I couldn't imagine not believing. Believe your first one on baptism. I'm just, were they more into like, believer baptism or something like that? They didn't. Yeah, yes, coming of age kind of thing.
Speaker 1:How could, how could the Holy Spirit possibly, you know, work in somebody that could not speak up for their own faith?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. Well, that's interesting. I have just overwhelmed at the veracity, the truth, the person and work of Jesus. Like I'm kind of infatuated with Jesus Keep it safe, tim. Like I'm kind of infatuated with with Jesus and uh, the well, yeah, I mean the, the person in work, but the historicity of Christ. Have you done any while I'm on it right now? Have you? Have you heard anything about this new research in the shroud of Turin, bill?
Speaker 1:No, I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:What the burial cloth of the resurrected Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I don't know about the new research into it.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, there's just a lot of scholars, even atheist scholars, who are saying one it's dated to 2,000 years ago. There's Jerusalem dirt in the cloth, oh, limestone, there's the flashpoint. They put this you know, a cloth has multiple layers. I'm not a, I don't work with cloth, I'm not a seamstress or whatever, but the craziest thing they can't reduplicate is the flashpoint of light that took place, that created like a photographic negative imprint of the body.
Speaker 1:That they can't science can't.
Speaker 2:They can't figure it out, they can't reduplicate it, and it's like we believe, as Christians, the moment of resurrection. A dead guy who's dead for roughly 30 hours. The cloth actually shows that he had rigor mortis. He hadn't returned back to. He still was in a rigor mortis state when life came back. The father gave his son back life and there's some other pieces of evidence that are just astonishing Over 350 lashing marks.
Speaker 2:We know Jesus was beaten beyond recognition. The Gospels account for that and that's one of the reasons why he expires after he departs, after only six hours. Normally it took much longer for someone to expire on the cross. And this is another crazy point, or two other crazy points the crown of thorns. They see the crown of thorns, which was not like just a little wreath. It's three, four inch long Jerusalem thorns and there's 30 marks. They can actually see in the flashpoint 30 to 50 marks in the head of Jesus. And then there was an actual Roman spear in the side of this man too, on this cloth that perfectly duplicates a first century Roman spear. It's as if the Bible is true, bill, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's as if the tomb is actually empty and Jesus lives and reigns. He's at the right hand of the Father and waiting to be sent by the father to make all things new, and he's given us a mission as proclaimers of the gospel, to really, really deeply believe. And I think, as time goes on, science and evidence, et cetera, is just converging more and more for us. I'm even listening to a. I listened to Mel Gibson's podcast with Joe Rogan. Now I'm not promoting, they Swear, etc. You guys know Rogan's podcast is one of the largest podcasts in the world and Mel Gibson is on there. He was referring to the Shroud of Turin and the recent evidence that's come out. I mean, it's pretty extraordinary, bill. The evidence comes from all sides about this man who was dead and then brought to life. Anything more to say there?
Speaker 1:Well, that's amazing. I'm happy to hear that.
Speaker 2:You don't need it. I don't need it either, but it's just like wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, over the years I've seen the photos of the Shroud of Turin and read about it, but as far as these facts that you've just stated right now, I hadn't heard any of that. Pretty impressive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the carbon dating was false. Like back now science has shown. No, this cloth, I mean, that's the biggest thing that led people to dismiss it. They're like oh, it's only like 700 or 1,000 years old or something like that. No no, no, it dates to first century Jerusalem. Pretty extraordinary. All right, give us two more characteristics of pastoral leaders there, bill.
Speaker 1:I think you know, pastors need to be able to communicate, and I expect my pastor to communicate to me and to have his heart for me and for other people as well, rather than just perform the functions and duties of a pastor.
Speaker 2:Well and again to the last. Could you be a pastor and not want to know your people Like? That seems antithetical to me and I guess, to play devil's advocate, some of us could be so prone toward mission, et cetera or, on the other end, so prone toward the liturgy has to, everything has to be, and I miss the people who are around. I've heard stories about you. You know you get out early. This is one of. I try to get out early to, you know, shake hands with people as they're coming in. If someone, if the Holy Spirit's kind of put someone on my heart that I know is walking through a harder time, like going before service, definitely after, to interact with them. I want to know, and even in a larger church it may be kind of hard, but I want to be present with people.
Speaker 2:You know a shocking thing, I didn't know, that some pastors maybe this is your experience too some pastors don't like greet their people when they leave. They don't, they don't like stay accessible for a certain period of time. I mean, that seems kind of bonkers, bonkers to me. So, yeah, what? What I know, what I know God's people well enough, not their name, their story. That goes a long way and do I care about their development enough to say I I'm a part of your care, but for us it's a larger church, right? So there's other leaders, other small group leaders, who deeply know your story and can pray for you. But yeah, I guess it's a disposition of the heart of the leader. Is he here for his people or is he working either on the one hand, just providing religious goods and services, or, on the other, he's so focused on the future that he doesn't see the people who are about bringing the gospel out into that preferred future? Anything more to say there, bill?
Speaker 1:While you were talking, I was thinking years ago, oh, within the last 10 years, I had the opportunity to attend a I think I'm saying this right a Life Church TV or dot com or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was visiting in Oklahoma and had heard about this and went with some friends to this on a Sunday morning and the pastor was not present at this site. And I learned later on that there were a number of sites, maybe across the country I'm not quite sure how far it went, but he was the preacher and he showed up on a screen when it was time to preach, but before that there was a local pastor who led that. There was music. We were there early in the morning and the place was packed all ages. We were not the oldest people there, there were no kids in the room, but there were hundreds of people in that room, maybe 500 people in that room, and when the pastor was preaching the people were reacting as if he were right there in front of them responding, and they were clapping, talking back to the pastor, and I thought these people have a relationship with that guy and I don't know how many of them have ever seen him in person, and yet I got the impression that they had a relationship.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, that's a Craig Groeschel Life Church that's it.
Speaker 1:That's the guy Craig Groeschel.
Speaker 2:Yep, it's a fascinating move in American Christianity right now that there are some larger church pastors who have developed rapport relationship virtually with congregants across the country I don't know how many, I think they worship 20,000, something like that across multiple campuses and many different cities. It's a unique approach. I don't know that it's one that we can duplicate for a couple of. Not that we can't make use of video preaching. I'm not against necessarily video preaching per se, but every person needs a pastor and pastors who are around them. It's hard to do the sacrament. I think sacrament needs to be in person, and having call and ordain servants of the word that oversee the sacrament. That's difficult, but maybe get your take on this.
Speaker 2:He's a communicator. He's a relationship builder. Craig Groeschel, he's been remarkably gifted to be a communicator. He's a relationship builder. Craig Groeschel, he's been remarkably gifted to be a communicator. He's a preacher. He's a proclaimer. Is there a difference in your mind between the preacher and the pastor? Because that's the distinction they make. There's a preacher or a preaching team, and then each campus has multiple pastors, depending on how big the size is. Do the spiritual care, discipleship, et cetera. Have you wrestled with the difference between preaching and pastoring?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, of course, my point with Craig Groeschel Groeschel yeah, my point there was, you there was not that I'm advocating that style of church or worship at all, I'm not. But the point was that he was pastor to those people and they felt that relationship. I didn't, and that's the only time I've ever experienced that. Uh, but back to what we were talking about earlier. Uh, I want to feel that relationship with my pastor and the people for whom I am the pastor. I want them to feel that relationship with me. I want them to know that I, that I do care about them, I am interested in their life and in every aspect of their life and I'm there to present that resurrected Jesus to them in every way that I possibly can.
Speaker 2:Yeah Amen, so confident. We need to be able to communicate. Do you have one more C? You're a good preacher. We're on the C track right now. Is there another C Bill, or where are we going?
Speaker 1:Oh, I've kind of forgotten where we were.
Speaker 2:It's okay, it's okay. So any other top three characteristics of pastors they're confident about? Their faith they can communicate. You got one more.
Speaker 1:You asked about the difference between preaching and being a pastor. You know the two things are interrelated. I have a friend who was serving as a vacancy pastor and was just getting ready to start, maybe in a couple of weeks, when we had this conversation years ago and I said well, that'll be interesting getting to know a different congregation and learning how to preach to them. He said I've already written all the sermons and I said, oh, good for you. Not quite my style and I am more interested in learning where you are in your faith journey and how can I help along with that faith journey. How can the word of God help along with that faith journey? What does Jesus have to say to you about your faith journey? And it's more than okay.
Speaker 1:Here's the text, and this is what I think about the text. And here it is. I think that the preacher has the opportunity to be the pastor while he's preaching and to help people work through the good things and the bad things in life. But to help people work through well, what does this scripture mean to me? I understand, maybe, what St Paul was writing about to the congregation in Corinth.
Speaker 2:But what does that have to do with me today? Yeah Well, amen, If we don't. The word is living and active and it's also contextual. And that is the preacher's job, I think connecting the timeless truths of scripture to the hearts and ears of 20, 25 hearers. There's art and science to that. There's a lot of mystery around what that actually looks like. I'm always amazed, you know, because I can't know. You know we got close to a thousand people there. You know I don't know where everybody is, but the Holy Spirit does.
Speaker 2:And so the Holy Spirit like, connects the word of God. If the pastor, if the proclaimer's heart is, like, open to story, to application. I know pockets of our story, I know the felt needs of different groups of people, I know that we're suffering from addiction and mental health crisis and relationships being torn down. And and since I know those kinds of macro themes, that allows me in real time. A lot of times it's just the Holy spirit brings it to mind, connected to the story. That is a word that the Holy spirit connects for that person. And you've had this bill. They walk out. How did you know what I'm like? I don't know, I don't know, I don't know that's the Holy Spirit's work. Anything more about the Holy Spirit connecting, especially for the proclaimer whose heart is open toward preaching to the felt needs of his people. How the Holy Spirit just connects the dots and points them to Jesus, it's pretty extraordinary isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a. I was just thinking about an old collect from the Lutheran hymnal. When I grew up, we did page five in the Lutheran hymnal every Sunday, maybe four or five times a year. When we celebrated the Lord's Supper, we did page 15.
Speaker 2:You only did the Lord's Supper four or five times a year. It wasn't often.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's strange. I think maybe once a quarter and a good Friday or Monday. Did you not have a?
Speaker 2:pastor. Did you not have a local pastor? Oh, yeah. You did have a local pastor. It's not like there was a circuit rider. You didn't actually have a pastor. It was just a tradition in some of those churches to only do it quarterly or so. Yeah, did you have private? I'm sorry to just go deeper on this one. Did you have private confession and absolution in that context where people had to go before coming to the Lord's Supper?
Speaker 1:We did it on Friday night or Saturday night could not make it. The pastor did allow you to go on Sunday morning into his office. You had to walk in front of the whole congregation to go past the pulpit into his room and everybody knew you know what were you doing. You didn't go to. But I'll tell you, the first time I went you could not commune If you and he wrote down everybody's name and had that, that piece of paper on the altar with him, checked him off.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's. That's very different and I guess maybe I'm getting super pragmatic here. Maybe he's like, because if it's a church of 100 or 200 people or something like that, you know, in a rural community, something like that, that he's like that's a lot of people to see, so maybe we can only like space this out once, a quarter or stuff like that. That's a lot of, that's a lot of work. Um, that, when did that practice in our context? Kind of stop Cause I think I'm a very we, I love the mission, but I think there is something very, very powerful about private for you confession and absolution rather than just corporate confession.
Speaker 2:And I sound kind of old school, I guess, when I say that. But yeah, yeah, I think there people need to hear, though your sin is scarlet, it's as white as snow, it's gone as far as the east is from the west, that the heaviness of conscience, what you've done or failed to do, it's gone, nailed to the cross with Jesus for you, bill right, so you're forgiven in the name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit. And I think sometimes with the big production or even larger churches like ours, we lose that personal invitation to experience the healing words of Jesus for me, which the for you component, for me component, that's very, very Lutheran. Anything more to add to that?
Speaker 1:A couple of things. When I became parish pastor in 1973, I said, if you want to make a private confession of your sins before communion, I'm going to be in the church office. And two people showed up and the next time it was me. So that's when the practice stopped for me. People just didn't show up. My vicarage congregation, redeemer Church, Bartlesville, oklahoma, that pastor did not make a big deal about it but he did, I know, make himself available for those that wanted to do that. In my ministry, of course, people have come at times in their life with confession, but no one has made it a point to come before receiving the Lord's Supper.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was a cultural season that just has kind of changed, maybe for very practical, pragmatic reasons. I have the same approach as you do. If some person is burdened in their conscience and it happens from time to time they're at odds with a brother or sister in Christ and they need to make that right before coming and receiving the body and blood of Jesus. We do that Really. The maybe better. I don't know if it's better, but more practical approach from a scale perspective is for us in small groups, like having a leader who's able to know what's going on and offer that word of private. You could say confession and absolution, that moment of confession, absolution. We've seen a lot of success, I guess, there in releasing the office of the keys to the priesthood of all believers. Right, I oversee it, but it's been released out. Whoever sends you, forgive. They're forgiven in the name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit. So we see that as kind of a leadership development opportunity out in our community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do you think about that, bill? I think it's essential. You have to do that, especially in a larger church. You still are the pastor of the larger church, but I can remember Pastor Muzan Biggs at Boston Avenue Methodist Church in Tulsa, oklahoma big church, and he and I were talking one time and I said how do you do that? And he said this is how I do it.
Speaker 1:I am the pastor of Boston Avenue Methodist Church and there are 14 other ministers here and together we do this and I thought what a great approach. There's no question. You know number one about who is the pastor, and yet the pastor work gets done through the other ministers that you have in your congregation and it has to work that way. And I don't care what size the church is, there's always other ministers around that are taking care of people. You know there are things that that happened when I was parish pastor that I never knew about, didn't need to know about, and one person taking care of another person, ministering to their needs, and I said amen you know we have to do it this way, that's it.
Speaker 2:That's it. Yeah, I'm. I'm in a really sweet spot right now. Our, our my other partner partner, Pastor Michael Hyden, is great with spiritual care and leading our spiritual the hospital and our goal is to have at least a once a week often it's more, but at least a once a week touch with them to let them know they're seen and loved and cared for. And yeah, it's pretty exciting. But many hands make lighter work, right? I mean, if we got a team of 20, they have a couple people, a couple, three people that they're engaged with, that they're friends with, and then pastors and things are in rotation to bring the sacrament to them. It just works better when we do it together. It seems so simple, rather than having to do everything.
Speaker 1:I remember years ago listening to Lyle Schaller. He was really somebody that I leaned on. I read his books. I went to every time I could hear him in person. I did. And he said in his estimation, the average pastor could take care of 75 people. An exceptional pastor could take care of 150 people. And he said many reasons our churches are the size they are is because that pastor is taking care of that many people, as many people as he can take care of. And that's the number. And until you include other people to assist and come alongside of you in this ministry, that's what it's going to be.
Speaker 2:Yep. Well, and that's the way it is for many churches in America about that size, and that's one of the reasons why the ULC, the Unite Leadership Collective, exists. We believe there are certain skills that pastors can learn to move from doer to developer. To lead others to do, to partner with him, to do the works of ministry. He's been called Ephesians 4, right to equip the saints for love and good deeds. That is in our job description, from, uh, from from Jesus and the apostle Paul, and they, obviously they modeled that right.
Speaker 2:The rabbinic style of leadership is like as you watch me do it, you're going to partner Luke nine, Luke 10. I've gone off on that many, many times. I'm not going to do it right now, but Jesus gave others, his disciples, the invitation and guess what? It multiplied because they did the exact same thing with the communities that they were sent to. It was never about just the Bible, answer man, I am the apostle. No, it was always about as I've received. So I give 2 Timothy 2.2,. As you have the ability to teach, Timothy, you've received that from me, I've received it from Jesus. Pass it on to other men who can pass it on to other men who have the ability to teach, and off we go. The multiplying movement of Jesus moves out to reach more and more people with the gospel, and when that is in your culture, people are cared for in the flock more effectively. 100%, 100%.
Speaker 1:There's no question about it. Just think how much it takes just to take care of you Exactly.
Speaker 2:A lot, a lot, exactly. So I need a lot, a lot of help. So, anyway, let's get into. The reason I was really pumped to hear and get to hang out with you today is what Mark Ernster, one of your friends, kind of has commented and he's been a guest on the former American Reformation, now Tim Allman podcast.
Speaker 2:wonderful man of faith, lay leader in your community, and he was just so impressed with your pastoral hospitality and especially your work with those who are homebound. So what is the role of hospitality and emotional quotient EQ skills in pastoral leadership? Let's talk about hospitality and EQ skills, bill.
Speaker 2:Tell me about that phrase emotional quotient I uh, so yeah, iq yeah, eq, eq eats, iq for breakfast every day, breakfast, lunch and dinner Meaning it's we're not just, we're not just brains on a stick, it's not just about what you know right or how smart you are, it's how um able you are to emotionally you could say relationally, socially connect to other people, to mirror the emotions of other people to. You could say, show compassion and care and appropriate challenge to people in various places in life. So as a pastor, we have to grow. Ei is another phrase, emotional intelligence, right. How do I present growing in self-awareness? For me over the years has been Tim, you can be loud and intense, okay. So let's pull back on the intensity from time to time, harness the passion, but let's be aware of how that's impacting other people, not just in the preaching office, but in the one-on-one or in the small group. You do that very, very well. It's subconscious, it's kind of ingrained in you the way you naturally connect to other people. And if that happens in a pastor and then happens in a leadership team, that congregation then begins to be known for hospitality. I'm not just going to go into my holy huddle out in the courtyard after worship, I'm going to actually have the eyes to see who's new here, who's isolated here.
Speaker 2:Just yesterday I had a conversation with a first-time family in worship. After worship they said, hey, thanks for noticing us. And we talked for five minutes or so and they had a great, great experience. And then they're like and you're yeah, just to let you know you're the third or fourth person that's come up and engaged with us. Well, they're just kind of hanging out watching to see if anybody will notice them. You have a ministry of noticing and the congregation is going to grow in hospitality. They start to become very, very intentional about noticing others. That's the long answer to your question. What is emotional quotient? We're aware of how we present to others and in turn we draw others closer to us rather than push others away. Anything more to say there and how that? What role that plays in your ministry, bill?
Speaker 1:That is. That is my ministry. That is my ministry. That's kind of how I operate and I think that's just because that's who I am. That's how I'm wired up, and I learned that about myself some years ago through a Myers-Briggs. By the way, I had avoided that particular instrument and got involved with some other denominational leaders when I was a district president in Oklahoma and we hired a therapist, an Episcopal priest, and we went once a month and one of the things he did was say you have to take this Myers-Briggs inventory. And I had resisted because, number one, I didn't understand what it was, and I thought somebody was going to say well, you're going to have to be a plumber instead of a pastor, not that that would be bad. Anyway, when we were going through the results, he read through all the things and then write down the letters that you think apply to you. And I did. And he said to me you know, that is who you are, you are solid in here. And he said you're not a big thinker, bill, but you do have great emotions.
Speaker 2:It's kind of offensive. You have a great emotions. That's kind of offensive. You have a great mind.
Speaker 1:Recognize that over the year. Most of the time when I'm doing, my thinking is when I'm talking, and I've learned that later on too, some people operate that way and that's how I operate. Anyway, I think all those things that you just said about the emotional quotient, I think those are the words I would use to describe myself and my ministry. I want to know who you are, I want to know your name, I want to know your family. I want to know those things. When I stand out in the front porch of church on Sunday morning and you and your family are walking up, I say, tim, good morning, welcome to worship today. And when you're kneeling at the communion rail, I want to say, tim, this is the body of Christ for you. And when I come to visit you in your home because you can't get out anymore, I want to say, bernie, this is the body of Christ for you. And tell me about yourself. Where do you come from? How did you get to San Diego? What's going on here?
Speaker 2:Those are important things to me.
Speaker 2:We are storied individuals at our base. We want to be connected to a larger story, and I would say that that's God's story of redemptive love. And then we want to know does God care and do other people care about my? What could be, apart from faith in Jesus? Meaningless, you know, hopeless existence? When we notice and make time for people, we give value to their story and we know their name. One of your special, I guess, superpowers, holy Spirit superpowers, is knowing people's name. So let's talk about the power of name. What is in a name? And then let's get super practical on how you there are some tactics for memorizing people's names more intentionally, and let's talk about that. So what's so powerful in a name? Bill?
Speaker 1:I did not pay much attention to that, tim, until this. First I want to say I feel good when you call me by name, when we haven't seen each other or we met once or twice, and you come up to me and you said, bill, remember we met in Orlando, florida, three years ago and I'd say, oh yeah, you know now I've come back. But that's. That means something to me when someone can do that. In my first parish.
Speaker 1:I remember it was tiny, a couple of hands full of people and a family came to worship on Sunday morning. New to our church, said. They were just new in our community and our newspaper, local newspaper, came out once or twice a week, I don't remember what. Anyway, on Saturday I was looking at it and here was a story about that family that had been in church the week before with their name and I had not remembered their name. But when I saw it I said, oh, so the next day they were in church and I called it by name and he was just so impressed that I had remembered his name and that was probably a starter time for me.
Speaker 1:To intentionally say this is important because we became great friends. They became great workers in that congregation brought other people into our congregation, so I began already then being aware of the power number one of calling you by your name, calling you by your name. But more, it just opened up our relationship, rather than looking at you and trying to have a conversation with you and not knowing your name, and so we don't talk about anything personal. We talk about the weather and the Los Angeles Rams or whatever it is it is, and we never get down to you know, how can, how can you know we work together on your faith journey and on my faith journey too.
Speaker 2:We're, we're in this together here.
Speaker 2:Amen. But there's something I couldn't be a human apart from a name. Right, you look at the story of Moses and the burning bush. Who will, I say, sent me, and I am right, even God takes a name. And then early in the Jesus story, the angel has to tell you will give him the name Jesus, he will save his people from their sins.
Speaker 2:I've seen different movies where a person forgets. This is like the tragedy, the trauma of Alzheimer's dementia, like when you forget your story, you even forget your own personal identity. There's a component to that that is hellish. It just disembodied, disconnected, kind of I would not know how to live apart from being Tim. Right, my family gave me that name. I believe God, you know, gave me, gave me that name. He knew me before I was even conceived in my mother's womb.
Speaker 2:There's, there's something remarkably mysterious about how people I was just thinking, like my dog, she responds her name's Roxy. Roxy would still be Roxy. I mean, I think there's something connected to her name. But even the, the creatures out in the wilderness, the bunnies that are in the riparian preserve right next to like these bunnies, don't have names. I think a name is intimately connected to what it means to be made in the image of God Adam and Eve. They were named by God. So anything more to say, though, on the power of name and how awful it would be when we don't know our name, if we didn't know our name.
Speaker 1:My identity, part of my identity, is my name and it's, you know, my family's name. I can remember a year or two ago, a classmate, good friend, pastor Steve Wagner, san Antonio, texas, was relating a story about when he was a young man and his father had a heart-to-heart with him and said remember this, you are a Wagner and you are representing us. And I thought, oh, that's pretty powerful in that name, right there in my name, and I've told that to our kids when they were growing up. I said you know, this is your name, this is who you are, and people are going to know you by your name and they do.
Speaker 2:And it's good. Amen, it is good, and it kind of connects me. At least our last names, right, multi-generational? There's a higher calling that I have, so, yeah, how. There's a higher calling that I have, so, yeah, how do you? What are the tactics, though, for memorizing more names, bill? Because I think a lot of times the pastor, I've had that experience, like you just shared, where I remember their name, and I've also had experiences where I just I can't pull it right now, but man, I know you were here and I'm so glad you came back and I'm going to, I'm going to get better, I'm going to get better at it. So, anyway, let's get into how you memorize names.
Speaker 1:The older I get, the more difficult it is for me to remember, but the easier it is for me to say I know, you told me your name three times already, but will you tell me again, because I don't have it and people are happy to do that, they are happy to do that, no one takes offense at least saying you know I told you three times already. You ought to know by now. Nobody treats me that way. Now I was thinking. Or when I was a parish pastor in Oklahoma, I went to a man after church and they had been there the week before, and I said so do they call you? Should I call you Chuck or Charlie? And he said well, why don't you call me by my name? It's Scott, and I had you know, complete, I thought he was Charles for some reason. Anyway, people are good.
Speaker 1:There's a young woman at this at our church in San Diego and I just couldn't bring it. And finally she said to me it's Annie. So when you look at me, just think of orphan Annie, and then you'll remember me. And that's what it took. It stuck. So I do things like that, but mostly I just say you know, I'm trying and I just tell people. I want to know your name, I want to know about you, I want you to know my name and they're helpful about it. But it takes it probably. Sometimes I remember right away. It's not a not a difficult thing at all, but other times four or five times before I get it For those of you who want to get better at memorizing names.
Speaker 2:Thanks for your honesty there, bill. By the way, I would give a shout out to Jim Quick and the book Limitless. He gives a lot of tactics there using the name three times in your interaction with them, connecting the name to an emotion, like what is the emotion that you're feeling, and then connecting their name to their story. Can you have one image that pops up in there? Those are three different tactics that people can utilize and I do it good sometimes and not so good. Praise God, there's grace and praise God, there's grace from Jesus flowing to people who say, yeah, I know there's a lot of people that you have to have to memorize, and we're actually toward the name thing, toward the power of name.
Speaker 2:Our congregation is going toward name tags, old school name name tags, and we're printing them out. We use planning center, um. We're working toward printing them out now printing. How do you produce that many name tags that quick, quickly enough? You know every single, every single week. Uh, there are some churches that have really got good at. A shout out to Woodbury Lutheran, um, and Tom Fotenauer up there. But we're that's where we're trending, cause it's. It's really, really helpful in building connection. Our La Mesa ministry working poor and homeless. Every week you come and someone writes out your name tag. Maybe we just do. Maybe we just do that. We're checking in, we're giving you your name tag as you come onto campus. We could make it. We don't even need the tech for that. For goodness sake, I'm going to bring that up in a meeting today. Let's just write out their name Bill.
Speaker 2:Anyway, there's great power in name and then when you'd see them out in the community exactly, you've hung out, you've seen them in worship. Let's remember that name. So let's work harder, church leader, toward recognizing people with the power of name. Let's pivot toward talking about the priesthood of all believers. What are the benefits of we've talked around this a little bit benefits of equipping the priesthood of all believers and I guess a side note we don't get into in this podcast too much of the LCMS kind of current climate. But the one thing I would like to get your perspective on is clericalism in the LCMS. Have you noticed an increase in clericalism in the LCMS and how is that working? And I think that could be at odds with Jesus' desire, the early church's desire to equip rather than maybe control everything that takes place in the local church. Say more there, bill.
Speaker 1:Tell me what clericalism means.
Speaker 2:Just the pastor, he's the cleric, he's the distributor of religious services, word and sacrament, to be sure. But he is not just the Bible answer man. He is the center point of all evangelism, he is the doer of all of the ministry. And one of my kind of formative stories was when I was at a district conference this goes back seven, eight years ago and we were talking about, I think, giving a vote toward our commission church workers, right, and this young man with his clerical collar. Nothing against clerical collar. I actually wear a clerical collar when I'm robed up on Sundays and sometimes even between that, but I don't necessarily wear it every day. This young man, fresh out of the seminary, stands up and said let it be known, in the church there are proclaimers and there are hearers. The two should not be confused. And I was kind of frustrated, I guess, with just the way he said it, this very narrow view of you sit, you receive, let me do my thing, I'm the preacher, you just sit and hear.
Speaker 2:The struggle I have with that sort of a perspective is, again, I think it's counter to Ephesians, chapter four, equipping the saints. I think it's counter to the way of Jesus. Jesus actively preached and he invited others to preach. Now, not everybody has a teaching preaching gift. I'm not saying we ordain everybody or anything like that. I am saying that every baptized believer is sent out into their various vocations this appears to be very Lutheran into their various vocations, to be a missionary, one who can tell the story of Jesus both in their home and in their marketplace. And the church should be equipping them to tell that story rather than saying you have to come and sit and be silent, rather than, I think, to land the plane.
Speaker 2:I think the local church at its best is seen as a catalytic training center rather than just a place where people come and hang for a week, do their word and sacrament thing and check the box and then off, they go into there. And I may be a little harsh on that, maybe drawing too harsh of a caricature there, but there's just and I think it's always been a tension just to land the plane. I think it's always been a tension just to land the plane here. There's always been a tension between who really does the ministry here, you know, is it the preacher, is it the people? Anything more there? So I went off on you, you talk about clericalism.
Speaker 1:That's fine. I just wanted to make sure that I was answering your question where you want to know a couple of things. First, 15 years ago or so in that range, I was invited to preach at a congregation I don't remember the occasion now, maybe dedication of a new building or anniversary or something a larger church and after a church on Sunday morning where I preached lunch and then whatever was going to happen in the afternoon right after lunch. So after, in between churches, I was looking for coffee and I walked around and got into the gymnasium kind of room and the women were setting up, some people were setting up tables for the luncheon and they had the tables right down the serving tables down the center of the room, and I commented what a great thought that was that people could go then on the food line on both sides rather than having the tables, you know, pushed up against the wall and and then you know no place to move around. Anyway, they started laughing and I said what's so funny? And they pointed and the pastor or one of the pastors was just leaving and said he just told us that we need to take these tables out of the middle of the room and shove them up against the wall. And we said, well, this would be a much better way, pastor, to do it. And he said, no, I'm your pastor and you must obey me. And I said, well, that didn't get him too far, did it? And he said you know, we've got a thousand people to feed and we've got to do it in 30 minutes or something like that, and it just wouldn't work otherwise. So that was one of my introductions to clericalism.
Speaker 1:Wow, and there have been others I did encounter over the years. I can think now of a pastor that refused to let anyone else pray publicly in the church and it came to bear that he refused to allow the Sunday school superintendent to pray with the Sunday school kids before Sunday school. On Sunday morning they had in their church a joint Sunday school opening and devotion time but he needed to be the prayer for that and refused to let anybody else. If you were having a meeting in your church, then he was to be invited to the meeting to be the prayer at the beginning of the meeting, because that was his job as the called pastor there at that church. So these are extreme examples of that and I have to confess that in the past, oh, 10 years or so, 15 years.
Speaker 1:I've been retired about 15 years now, not quite. Carol and I my wife and I we'd like to travel a lot around the country and we get into a lot of churches, and most times it's we don't know anything about the church On Sunday morning. We wandered into your church one Sunday morning and you remembered my name by the way.
Speaker 1:That's great. I was impressed with that. Anyway, sometimes I get the sense that this is the man that's in charge and he's in touch with everything. You know, when the announcements are made, for instance, I can think of a couple of times. Now call me, you know. Don't call Sally, don't call Jim, you know. Call me and I'll let you know more about this particular event that's going on, and it could well be that he was the person to call for that particular event. So that's about as deep into that as I've been getting these days.
Speaker 2:Well, I got two follow-up. These are deep questions. Did the tables stay in the middle of the fellowship hall or did they go back the lay leaders? They kept them in the middle there because it was just more pragmatic.
Speaker 1:They didn't listen.
Speaker 2:Gentle rebellion against the pastor.
Speaker 2:Toward those customs in the local church. I realized there are people that were here before me and likely they're going to be here after me. So as it relates to a lot of the customs of the church when I came 12 years ago, like I have to adapt, I may bring some others. But if I don't adapt, that's very unwise for me as I enter into this unique community in this time and space and those rituals like for us it's God is good all the time. See you in the courtyard. I mean that's how we close, like every service. Kids even say see you in the courtyard. I mean it's almost like a literature. We're going to move out in the courtyard, we're going to do fellowship together there.
Speaker 2:So it would be unwise if I said you know what we're not doing. God is good. I don't want that call and response, you know anything like that. That would have been very, very unhelpful. But sometimes again this goes back to EQ and maybe coupled with theology, around the office of holy ministry pastors make decisions that really hamper their relationship with their. It kind of shows disrespect toward the customs of that local parish. Any thoughts there, bill?
Speaker 1:I remember, as a seminary student, I was said I don't remember which professor said wait two years before you move the altar. Well, yeah, but you had asked earlier than equipping saints. I felt, and I don't know why, if it was something I picked up at the seminary or just my own growing up experience, you know, in a small church, whatever I just felt that you know I was the go-to person and I needed to weigh in on everything and if you were going to do something you better check with me. But over the years I learned and those were not always gentle lessons and I appreciate them now the people that were lay people, that were forthright with me and said look, what are you doing here?
Speaker 1:I remember a couple of years ago I had a conversation with Mark Zender from King of Kings in Omaha and I don't know, excuse me, I don't know how we got talking about it, but he said you know, one of his parishioners came and said pastor, I think that as a church we need to make a food truck kind of thing, because at night there's a lot of people out on the street and you know, they don't, they don't have something to eat always, and I think we could. We could reach out to them and get to know them, and they could get to know us and it might be a gospel-presenting opportunity. And Mark said you know what? I think that is a marvelous idea and I think you're the guy to do it, and the guy went and did it.
Speaker 1:And I was thinking you know, 50 years ago I probably would have said well, we'll take it to the church council or we'll form a committee, or we'll have a meeting or whatever it is. People are. People know stuff. I remember old Charlie Mueller, now gone on to on to be with the Lord, said you got to trust the lay people. They're going to take this kingdom of God further than we ever thought we could as clergy, and he is so right about that. So we have to help people. We have to bring the word of God to them in such a way that they are fulfilled number one in their own faith, that they are confident that they can go ahead and do something and that they don't need to rely on the pastor that they know.
Speaker 1:I don't know how many times we've heard this over the years. Oh, I would say something to somebody, but I don't think I know enough about the Bible. You're never going to know enough about the Bible. Just go, trust the Holy Spirit in your life. He's going to give you the words to say he's going to move your hands in the way that they need to be moved and let's just get to work together.
Speaker 2:Amen. No, that's such a great posture. The second question I had was where did that young man read in the Bible or in the Lutheran confessions that only pastors pray in small groups or something? I don't know where that comes from. Could you help me understand that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't either because I asked him exactly the same thing and he, I don't know, I don't remember he had a response, but I don't remember right now what it was. Remember he had a response, but I don't remember right now what it was. But this is what that led to his. Uh, after a meeting, first with the board of elders, I met with him privately, then we met with the board of elders and then we accepted his resignation. Uh, because it just was not working for for anybody. The congregation was stifled and uh, uh, and I, he, he, I don't know what happened to him.
Speaker 2:So yeah, well, that's a. That is an extreme example. I don't think there are many examples, uh, in our church.
Speaker 2:Uh, praise, praise God. So this has been, this has been great. Maybe my last question uh, bill, grateful for who you are, how God made you um, the the care and sensitivity, the amazing, amazing pastor over 50 years, uh, in our, in our church. I'm grateful you're in the Lutheran church, missouri synod brother. Um, so, as you look at Jesus, we've talked. We started with leadership. Let's close with leadership. As you look at Jesus, what made him like the best leader ever, bill?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was thinking about this, I don't know the last couple of days when I was thinking about it, martin, my conversation, with our conversation together. I read this someplace, I don't remember quite where, maybe something that Guido Merkin's longtime pastor at Concordia in San Antonio, texas, he said when I was a young pastor, and he wasn't talking about himself, he was just relating a story. He said when I was a young pastor I stood on the riverbank and watched the people floundering in the water and I told them how to swim. This is how you need to do it to get over here to the bank, to safety. And then in my middle years I kind of kept one foot on the bank and I put the other foot down in the river and I reached out and I started pulling some people in and in my later years I got in the water with them and I pushed them, helped them, carried them to the shore.
Speaker 1:And I think about Jesus. He was in the water the whole time and he was there with me, with you, with everybody, not just shouting instructions, this is how you swim, but saying come with me, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the way to salvation and this is how it's going to happen. And he cared for everybody, everybody. He didn't wait to say do you believe in me or not? You know the blind guy on the corner, you know, you can see now, and the lame guy and the sick kids and whatever it is.
Speaker 1:He went and he helped and he was there when people needed him, when people whatever people had heard about him, whether they came to him through faith or whether they came to him because they heard this guy can heal people and I need to be healed. So this is the guy and he responded to them in love and in care. And that is the example that I want to follow every day of my life. Right there. I want to be a person that when people look at me and if they know Jesus, they're going to say that was Jesus, and if they don't know Jesus, they want to know why did you do that for me? And I'll have an opportunity to tell them.
Speaker 2:Amen, so amazing. You wrote down one of your stories. Your favorite stories is the restoration of Peter, the forgiveness of Peter after denying Jesus three times. Why is that one of your favorite stories, bill? Why?
Speaker 1:is that one of your favorite stories, bill? And, by the way, that was a story that Nathan Hausch that was the gospel lesson that he picked for his installation. That's very cool, because I think of all the times when I have intentionally and you can't be a pastor anymore, but he said still to me restored me again. I still need you, I still want you, I still want you to be the proclaimer of the gospel to people, feed these people, and I think about that so often, especially when I'm messing up something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, jesus is so kind, he's the greatest leader and lover of our soul and it's audacious. But he equips us out into his mission field by the power of his spirit to bring his never-changing word to a never-changing world, to meet people exactly where they're at. Listener, I pray you've been touched today. Bill, you're a gift to me, you're a friend of mine. I'm going to keep running for well who knows how long, for at least today, standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before me in ministry or still serving, just like you had Jerry Kieschnick on a while back. That caused some stir. I know you and Jerry are good buddies and you know I guess I even tease at some of the political struggles in the LCMS.
Speaker 2:I'm praying in this season that there is openness, that there's care for one another, that we work from our places of agreement and that we unite and carry the gospel forward with words and equipping the priesthood of all believers, but also recognizing we need wonderful pastoral leaders who are in the Office of Holy Ministry. Let's raise up more of them. Send them to seminaries and try and raise them up local. If they can't go to seminaries, explore solutions to get them trained in their local context as well, so you're a gift to me. If people want to connect to you, bill, how can they do so?
Speaker 1:Let's see Email is good. W-r-d-i-e-k-e-l-m-a-n at gmailcom.
Speaker 2:Amen, Amen. Bill, this will be out in a couple three weeks. Feel free to share it with your friends. This has been a joy for me. Listener, please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in conversations like this. Please go to our YouTube channel and follow us, if you haven't done so already. Comment, and that really helps with the algorithm to get the word out on these Jesus-centered, fun conversations with women and men within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and many times outside the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. We have a lot to learn. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks so much, Bill.
Speaker 1:Thank you, tim, great to be with you.