The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
Leadership: Learn from experts across diverse fields as we explore how their insights can shape and sustain a healthy culture in the local church and beyond. Over 60% of listeners expressed a desire for practical discussions on cultivating thriving environments—and that's exactly what these conversations will deliver.
Learn: Engage in deep theological discussions with scholars who illuminate how Christ is revealed on every page of Scripture. Together, we’ll bridge theology to the realities of a post-Christian America, ensuring practical application for today’s world. This segment aligns closely with the themes of the American Reformation Podcast and resonates with the 60% of you who crave more exploration in this area.
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Join Tim Ahlman as we navigate leadership, learning, and living with purpose, so you can lead with strength, wisdom, and a Christ-centered vision.
The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Word That Grounds Us
What grounds us when everything seems to be in constant flux? Dr. John Nordling, Professor of Exegetical Theology at Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, brings refreshing clarity to this question through his unique lens as both a classicist and Lutheran theologian.
*Disclaimer* - this episode was recorded prior to the Apology Video by Pastor Tim which you can find here
• Understanding the Word of God and Lutheran Confessions as our constant "pole star" amid cultural changes
• The importance of viewing current challenges through the lens of eternity
• How classical education provides deep insights into human nature that complement biblical understanding
• The critical value of learning biblical Greek for pastors to properly handle Scripture
• Making Greek instruction active rather than passive through composition exercises and daily quizzing
• Why pastors should be "professorial" and professors should be "pastoral" in their approaches
• The Christ hymn of Philippians 2 as the ultimate model of humility and service
• Exploring Jesus's often-overlooked sense of humor and wit in the Gospels
• The exciting growth of classical Lutheran education through organizations like CCLE
• Growing opportunities for international Lutheran theological education, particularly in Africa
You know, people come and go, christians rise and fall, nations do, elections do. But finally, you know, our commitment is to the Word of God and to the Lutheran Confession.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Tim Wellman Podcast. It's a beautiful day to be alive. I pray you're resting in your baptismal identity as Jesus calls you up to be filled by him. He makes us his dwelling place, by his spirit, and then calls us to be shaped by his word and to carry that word out into the world. Today I get to hang out with Reverend Dr John Nordling and let me tell you a little bit about John.
Speaker 2:He is at Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne. He's been a faculty member there since 2006. He serves as a professor of exegetical theology. He gets to teach many, many what he calls sons in the faith. I love that Greek and love for love for then, not just Greek but the classics in general. He has a lot of experience in Lutheranism and the classics. He hosts a biennial conference for pastors and classicists and educators to consider how classical language have influenced Lutheranism in the past and how Greek and Latin are poised to enrich the church, academy and culture into the future.
Speaker 2:He's written for the Concordia Commentary Series for CPH he is currently finishing up. He wrote Philemon, which I love. He's currently figuring finishing up his commentary on Philippians and man. I'm excited to have that. He's also written on religion and resistance in early Judaism, greek readings in First Maccabees and Josephus. That's fascinating. And for the Concordia Peer Review series he's done a number of academic articles on the Pauline epistles, slavery and other social issues. He's been married to his wonderful wife, sarah Ann, since 19. You're celebrating 40 years of marriage there, john.
Speaker 1:Can't believe it 1985.
Speaker 2:It does go fast. I'm at 20 years with my bride, Alexis. So how are you doing today, John? What a joy to be with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very good, I guess I didn't realize that we're on now. We were talking earlier. I thought we were on. So anyway, hello out there. Glad to be on.
Speaker 2:Now we're really on. No, we were just hanging out. Sorry for not being more clear, so let's start here. As you look, we're going to start like 30,000 feet from your perspective as an exegete in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, what do you think are the greatest cultural changes that have impacted the church in the past 20 years, and how has this shaped the role of pastor and ministry in our local context? Any thoughts there, just to get us going, dr Nordling.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean there are a lot of changes just to get us going, dr Nordling. Well, I mean there are a lot of changes. There's a lot of, you know, like just how we're able to do this interview. You know I mean with technology, but I still, you know I'm a classicist, I've trained as a classicist, I went to the seminary and New Testament is what I teach.
Speaker 1:So I guess you know I went to St Louis also, like you, tim, and one of my former favorite professors there was Dr Nagel, and he would always talk about inspecchiae eternitatis, you know, from the perspective of eternity, and so you know of eternity. And so you know, people come and go, christians rise and fall, nations do, elections do, but finally, you know, our commitment is to the Word of God and to the Lutheran confessions. I mean that's our pole star, so, and then each of us are given a vocation where we serve others with the gifts that God has given us. So you know, one of the things that people used to say when I was in graduate school at Wisconsin, doing my PhD there, was the more things change, the more they stay the same. More things change, the more they stay the same.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean, I got to teach classical mythology and the myths are a very profound view of reality, apart from Christ. Okay, christ and the gospel are not part of that purview, but still they know human nature and people have known it for millennia. Okay, we don't know how old, how, how far back in time these myths go, um, but they've been around before the time of writing. Okay, so, and the Bible is like that too, and um, uh, so um, we're here and and we're uh called by the gospel to faith. Uh, so, um, we're here and and we're uh called by the gospel to faith. Uh, the, the center of a Lutheran congregation is the word and sacrament where it's presented publicly, uh to the believers and then through them, to the world. So I guess that's how I look at it. So you know whether it's 20 years I've been. I've been here at the seminary now for, I think, 18 years, starting my 19th year, so roughly 20 years, but I haven't really seen that many changes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think it's good, I think that's a right perspective. It's a humbling perspective. You know, I think a lot of times we in the West you can look at individualism, consumerism, you can look at technology. Sometimes I think we're more prone to think we're super unique. You know, like this is, this is such an extraordinary, unprecedented right I mean that's a word that got used a lot in terms of, maybe, the COVID debacle like there's been famines and plagues and pestilence and stuff all the way down, like wars, rumors of wars, all that kind of it just is what it is in a fallen, broken world. And so we want to have a right perspective of our time, teach us to number our days Right and and but then to recognize we are held by, supported, mobilized, equipped for ministry in our respective vocations by the God who is above time, which kind of blows our mind right. That just, I think God kind of looks down at us.
Speaker 2:This is one of the things I've been wrestling with, like what is God's posture toward us, right, dr Nordlien? Is it one of anger? I think it's one of fatherly love. You know, I look at my kids trying to make it, and my son this morning made a bad choice. He was out late last night at a track meet, you know, and so this morning he made the choice which will have consequences for to sleep in, you know, and miss first period. We had a little conversation about work ethic, you know, as he was getting going. Sometimes we got to do things and show up when we don't feel like showing up and probably, but the tone of it's like it's love, son, god's got good things for you. I want my law. The law is here to help you not stumble too, but I think the posture of our heavenly father toward us, in the face of Jesus, is one of love and care, and he's not angry. Anything more to say about the posture of God toward us as we're just trying to make it through the world.
Speaker 1:Well, this God, who is above time, entered space and time in our Lord and Savior, jesus Christ, and of course that has all of the implications. I mean the understanding of the Lord's Supper, for example, in the Lutheran sense that God uses bread and wine to convey the body and blood of Christ. So it's both bread and wine and body and blood of Christ. It's not one or the other, the way Roman Catholicism or the Reformed teach, and it has a perspective on who we are. Also, my baptism into Christ, where I die and rise with Jesus. I was baptized before I even remember, you know, but I've always in a sense been in the church and, god willing, always will be so. And I'm old enough. I'm almost 68 years old now. I mean I'm not a spring chicken. I'm old enough. I'm almost 68 years old now. I mean I'm not a spring chicken. But I've made some mistakes but by God's grace, have landed very well.
Speaker 1:You know, the seminary here is a great place for me personally and my wife is not as blessed as I am, but she's with me, as blessed as I am, but she's with me, and it's just such a privilege to teach young people studying for the Office of the Ministry and Deaconess students too. They have an important role in our world. You know who am I? I mean, sometimes I feel the only thing I can really give them is don't do what I did. Do as I say, not as I do.
Speaker 1:Because you know, the things that drew me to seminary were not I didn't really want to be a pastor, I wanted to be a professor. I mean I realized that long ago before I went to seminary and I love theology and all of that. But I mean I was just quite taken by all of the things that pastors are entitled to learn, you know, starting with Greek and theology. And I was good at it, you know. I mean I learned and I had great professors at St Louis when I went through. Horace Hummel was my favorite professor. He's probably before your time.
Speaker 2:He was around as a retired prof kind of an adjunct.
Speaker 1:He taught a few courses. I never had him. Had him though. Yeah, yeah, well, he, he was a very he was a very interesting fellow. Yeah, tell me about him. He had foibles and and he was. We liked to imitate him, and he was also a very tough professor. A lot of my fellow students didn't like him. You always paid a price when you had a Hummel course. The best class, best grade I ever got from him was a B, you know, and I worked my butt off, but he designed 200 pages of reading per night and and and he and you know he was, he was just kind of really tough with students. Another professor that I didn't like when I graduated but came to like better was Bill Schmelder.
Speaker 2:Okay, no that he's definitely before my time. Tell me yeah.
Speaker 1:From whom I learned law, gospel, polarities, and he seemed to think it was his business to take us down a notch. So the tough professors. And then Nagel, of course, was a great professor too. He was much more benign, you know. He loved students. You would go to his office and he would just talk and make you were like the center of the universe when you were in his presence.
Speaker 2:So each of them.
Speaker 1:The St Louis Seminary that I was at was a great blessing for me. I feel I got a great education there and now I'm very much a Fort Wayner because I've been at Fort Wayne since 2006. You know, I mean, david Scare is just a tremendous theologian and I love his wit and his acerbicness and irony. You know, he embodies Jesus in a way, because Jesus was that way. Jesus had a sharp wit and you could never, you know, back him into a corner. So hey, I'm curious.
Speaker 2:What was I talking about? Go ahead, well, I'll follow up.
Speaker 1:I want to follow up, Dr Norley. I'm losing my train of thought.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I'll jog it. Here we go. So what was it about the generation, let's say 60s, 70s, 80s? You mentioned these professors. Yeah, get behind the curtain a little bit, because I had Dr Block taught me Greek at Concordia University in Nebraska.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this goes back.
Speaker 2:I was vickering there when he came Wow, okay, okay, so that's over, overcomer. I mean he was tough, like there was no, like skirting around responsibility, and I mean the memory work was intense, like I don't know that they make them and maybe there's good reason why, but in that season it was the discipline in the academic rigor. Maybe there's something in our culture today and I'm not saying we should just like willy nilly, don't like if you're a professor, please don't be a jerk. Right, there's a lot, there's a line, but there is a sense of calling upward by high expectation that maybe, unfortunately today the bar you could say is is lowered in some context and uh, so yeah, any any thoughts as to why that may be. And professors like dr block are hard to come by today yeah.
Speaker 1:So when I went through, uh, when I was in high school, that's when the big synodical civil war happened, right right, and I grew up in Oregon, so the Northwest District was kind of on the Semenex end of things, but I had a great pastor, pastor Stockkamp. He tried to educate the congregation in what was going on. He was very much a stickler for memorizing the catechism and all of that. But a lot of the other churches in that area were not that way. So anyway, and then I went to Concordia, portland and Valparaiso and when I was at Valparaiso I was very much into the, I thought, like a Seminex person thought, and because of my mother I decided to go to St Louis rather than to another seminary like Seminex.
Speaker 1:And so when I was at St Louis I had a lot of kind of unlearning to do and the first year was tough, but I really appreciated Hummel and Nagel and people like that and really, and so I made my choice you know, I made my bed to be in Missouri and I've been, haven't looked back. I mean, I've been very thankful for it and I've tried to beat the old liberals at their own game because they were tremendous historical critical people. So you know, the way is to read the Bible historically but not yield to historical criticism, whether we call it historical grammatic or whatever, but use the science and look at the Bible historically. That's why I got a degree in classics, because it was too dangerous to get one in Old Testament or even a New Testament, I figured. So I decided to go outside the canon. So I mean, that's basically where I was coming from at the time and so St Louis really helped me at that time to go on in grad school and classics and become a pastor in Chicago.
Speaker 2:Could you educate us, Dr Nerdling, on what it means to be a classicist? That may be, for some of our listeners that's something that is, that's probably a word they don't always come across in their everyday. So what does it mean to be a classicist? And what does it mean then, in turn, to study the scriptures using the classics? You said you came to the scriptures through the classics rather than through traditional Old Testament, New Testament, kind of exegesis. So just say more there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's not too many of us left. I mean, when I went through St Louis there were four professors that had degrees, phds in classics. Now I think I'm the only. No, that's not true. John Bruss, president Bruss, he's a PhD in classics. So there are a few of us. But it means to study Greek and Latin, you know, and have reading courses and read the languages in the original language and work up to it. And for the PhD I taught Latin. I taught a lot of Latin already as a grad student, and then classical mythology. So I mean that gave me a good background for the scripture.
Speaker 1:So with Philemon, when I did Philemon, I was able to get into, you know, extra biblical sources like Cicero and look at papyri and inscriptions and things like that. You know, and maybe even not too many pastors are that interested in it, but I really am. And it makes it. You know, christ entered space and time. You know I mean, otherwise it's just a shot in the dark, so so. So when I'm working on a text, I have to read the Greek. I have to. I mean, it's like Samson and his long hair. If you cut off Samson's hair, he's weak If I don't look at a text in the Greek original. You know the New Testament. I have nothing to offer because the translation can go in so many different ways. You have to know the text and you have to know what.
Speaker 1:Well, to be a pastor, in my humble opinion, okay, you need to be able to use it when you take a call and enter the ministry and you need to continue to work with it. I mean, it's not an option this is why you're being paid by your congregation is to read Greek deeply, in my opinion. Okay, not everybody agrees with that, but that's where I'm coming from. Not everybody agrees with that, but that's where I'm coming from, and not only is it a privilege to do it, but it's an obligation, because that will affect the type of preaching and teaching that you do. You have to be rewired when you take Greek. Okay, it's a laborious process, it takes time. We do it in 10 weeks, so I quiz those guys four days out of five. It's not an easy class, but they end up loving it because I make it fun. We do singing, I have a cartoon, we also do composition, where we go from English into Greek, because I think one of the problems of our Missouri Synod has been learning Greek too passively.
Speaker 1:You need to do it actively, and even the students that are having trouble with Greek can learn that way. I mean, if they don't do the composition sentence, they're very mad because I didn't call on them and they were prepared. So there has to be a kind of a competition. All right, so what do they say? Iron, sharpens iron or whatever you know. So, and that gets them ready for then doing theology. I mean, it's about producing pastors who are theologians. So pastors, in my opinion, should be professorial and professors at the seminary should be pastoral. Okay, both of them come together and even if you're a parish pastor, you need to be a theologian. You need to be able to demonstrate your study and learning theology at a high level and not watering it down, because if you water it down, you will change the doctrine of the church. That's what's at stake.
Speaker 2:No, I 100% agree. Tell me your perspective on tools like Logos and other tools that are being used right now. When I entered in, I got all my Hebrew syntax books, my concise Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the old time. I mean, I'm looking at those books right now and a lot of them are not out of print per se, but a lot of students are using logos today. So what are your thoughts there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you got to realize you're dealing with a Luddite. The Roman poet Horace said Odi apparatus persicos I hate Persian apparatus. So I don't know how to use the whiz-bang tools. And I go to scholarly conferences and some of them have tried to hook me and draw me in. The two tools that I use, even writing the commentary, is Moulton and Geaton's Concordance of the Greek Testament okay for parallel passages and relationships within, like a gospel. And then the other one that's absolutely indispensable is BDAG, bauer, danker, arndt, gingrich. Those two tools are very good and that's how I try to get my students to use.
Speaker 1:Now, of course it's good to read commentaries, but they don't have time to read a ton of commentaries. They should just read the Concordia commentary. But then I try to get them to do their own work, their own fresh exegetical work, and some students do it and a lot of them don't. I mean, now I am a tough professor, the circle has turned full, so, but still I'm able to work with a lot of them. And you know I tell the students, no professor does it exactly the same way. So try to learn from what I bring and hopefully that will be balanced out by what another professor brings.
Speaker 1:Okay, and probably that's how it is for pastors as well. But if you can get them working with the text, if you can get them, you know, like our New Testament Greek readings, if they're able to have a winkle and meet weekly with other pastors in the area over a Greek text, spend the first hour just on the text itself and then get a cup of coffee or a donut, then the second hour work on how we're going to develop this homiletically. Okay, that would be a morning well spent, in my opinion. And there are, you know, unfortunately, some pastors now that don't really know Greek very well, or if they've even studied it, like the SMP people you know. So what are we going to do with them? Well, if they meet together as a group over the text, that will help them and maybe get them interested in wanting to study Greek from someone like me.
Speaker 2:OK, so toward that end, do you do you have, are your classes like online? If someone just wanted to engage with you, that's out in the field like online.
Speaker 1:if someone just wanted to engage with you, that's out in the field they are. But, tim, here I'm going to part company with something I've heard you say many times in other podcasts. I've watched you for they can take me. I have an online Greek course but they never learn it as well because they don't do the composition. And plus, the seminary is just such a great place. It's the center of a student's life for a time. And the chapel you know the worship in our chapel is the best in the entire synod, in my humble opinion, you know. It's just so wonderful, it's so well done and it equips a young man to go forth and do likewise when he becomes a pastor.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I mean, I've thought, and you've been one of the things a common recurring theme in the podcast I've watched with you is what can we do to get more people? As I've watched with you is is what can we do to get more people, more produce, more pastors? Maybe what we could do is have the Greek class and have it remotely done, where people were connected remotely. It would be a lot more work for me, but it could probably be done that way, you know, so that they at least get that beginning initial class and get them into the kind of the exegetical sequence. Yeah, but still, there's nothing like being on this campus and also St Louis. These are, these are. This is hallowed ground. You know it's important when you come and you want to make the most of your time. That's how I see it, so sure.
Speaker 2:And, would you say, the local church where Word and Sacrament takes place? That's also hallowed ground too, right, dr Nordling? Of course, yeah right.
Speaker 2:So there's no competition. I ask that in all honesty because it's I think it's both, and right now, and too often I think we're going down a path where it's kind of competitive either or and that's certainly not the overall long range conversation I'd like to have I want my son to go to one of our seminaries if the Lord calls him into ministry. I want him to be in residential. I think it is and some in the circles that I run may take issue with me I think it is the best way to do it. Now, I don't think it's the only way to do it, understanding the times in which we live, but I think it is the best. And I think, if we can, if we can develop more of a, of a partnership to to reach people, to say, hey, there's a way for the, the second career guy, to get trained, and I think I think we should raise the bar on on smp. That's, that's my humble, humble opinion. Um, and and I said to to look down on our. That's not just looking down upon those that have gone through that program, but, as I was talking with uh, both seminary presidents a couple of weeks ago, it's, it's not. It's not a full MDiv right it's, it's maybe a third to a half and and the languages, I think, being one of the opportunities to elevate that learning.
Speaker 2:And here's a shout out too, I think if we offer it connected to the seminaries, if it's made accessible, a lot of our guys, whether they've got SMP or they're exploring future pastoral ministry, they would love to take it. So, yeah, I think it's not a, not an either, or and I think you know I am kind of one voice and face in this whole conversation, that I think and I really appreciate you taking the time to be with me today that sometimes folks may think I have compromising intentions regarding formation. Nothing could be further from the truth. I would just like more A heightened recognition of there are other ways to do it, which means we don't have to compromise. I think we should use technology for bivocational and co-vocational leaders. I've talked a lot about that, but I think that could boost our seminary in-person programs. So yeah, any thoughts there, dr Nordling?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I know that some of my favorite students are SMP guys that have just sensed that they need the Greek, you know. So they come and they kind of remind me of the 10 lepers. Nine of them didn't come back to thank Jesus, but one of them did, you know, and that's that's how I get their, their extreme gratitude. And I think the SMP, I mean OK, I mean you can't, the genie is out of the bottle, right? I mean you can't do away with Internet technology. It's here to stay, and so how can you use it optimally? I mean, I think that's the question. And I think too that in its current form, smp is kind of modular. So you get them started and maybe their ordination is a little too early, but they're ordained and they're working as pastors in their current situation. But then it's set up so that later they can take more and build on what they're learning.
Speaker 1:And you know what? That's how it is for every pastor, even those that are very well prepared. I mean it's all about finding your voice in the pulpit. Okay, that God gives you, finding your voice there and being comfortable and giving out the gifts. So the MDiv is not something that we're supposed to all be impressed with, but it's a gift to help others. So is the PhD in classics. The whole point is to help others, to help the church and to get people who wouldn't know Greek or Latin to just see how cool and wonderful it is. So I've given my life to it and I've put my wife through a lot of heck, you know, to get me to the training I've had. But now I'm, in a way, god has allowed me to give some of it back. You know so, and that's how it is for any Christian we die to the self and live to Christ, our Lord.
Speaker 2:Well, let's just hang. I hear you talking around humility and maybe we'll piggyback this into Philippians, right, the higher you go, the more you should realize how much you don't know. And the way of Jesus is the downward trajectory, right, it's the upside down nature of the kingdom. And I think sometimes in formation, right, the worst thing that could happen is a guy gets done with his studies and says I pretty much have figured out everything as it relates to theology and ministry.
Speaker 2:And it's like no, no, no, it's a lifetime of learning. There's always other disciplines and I think if the pastor maintains that curious, humble heart like I, know a fair amount about these things like that's great. My grandpa, who was a pastor, Dr Nordling, super old school. I remember early on he said don't get the big head, Tim. I was like 16, 17 or something, you know. Did you give yourself these gifts? No, They've been given by the God of the universe for you to steward, but they're not yours, they're, they're his. So maintain a humble posture. Any, any comments around humility, and I mean the. The best humble chapter I would say in all the epistles is Philippians, chapter two. So anything more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, Christ him, and it happens. That's what I'm working on right now the. I'm working on right now the spring. I'm working on the Christ hymn. That's the last major part of the commentary I have to do. I've done that last because I felt I needed to know what the rest of the letter says.
Speaker 2:So what do you learn? Can you get us behind? Yeah, tell us about it.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, as every Christian knows, the Christ hymn is divided into the inundation or the ex-inundation of jesus, his downward descent and then his exaltation in verse nine. You know, uh, the name which is above every name, that at the name of jesus, and etc. So, um, um, but uh, jesus is, you know, is he, is it ethical or is it charismatic? That's, there's a big debate about that. In what sense is you know?
Speaker 1:Paul begins in chapter 2, verse 5, have this mind among you, which is yours in Christ Jesus. So I think the plain sense is that he's sending, setting Jesus out as an example for us. But of course we're not saved by keeping the code, you know. We're saved by grace, through faith for all of us. But then not only Jesus is presented that way, but so is Timothy, so is Epaphroditus, so is Paul in chapter three, so are the other named Christians in chapter 4.
Speaker 1:Uodius, syntyche, clement and the noble Yokefellow, whoever he is. So it's all paradigmatic. And God puts us in a place to be fed by the spirit around word and sacrament, but also to help others. You know, to help others, and that's why I'm glad you invited me to be on your show, because I think a lot of your people listening to me haven't heard of me. You're not part of the Fort Wayne bubble, okay, but I'm glad that I have an opportunity to you know, to vent my spleen a little bit. And you know, because I was trained at St Louis. I mean, like you, I'm a St Louis alumnus, but here I am teaching at Fort Wayne and loving Fort Wayne. So you know, it's what do they say Wherever God puts you in the wilderness, make it into the Garden of Eden, basically, amen.
Speaker 2:Well, preachers love the Kingsmen and we're partners.
Speaker 1:That's because you always beat us.
Speaker 2:Well, we almost lost one year. I don't know if you know this, dr Earl. This would have been in 2004,. So just five or so just before you got there, there was gosh what's his name? He's actually teaching at Concordia Seminary. People are listening. Yeah yeah, yeah, I know, he went to college Lane.
Speaker 1:Jason Lane, jason Lane, there we go.
Speaker 2:And Jason was very good, yeah, and we only had I think we had a few guys heard or away or something we took like six or seven guys to a game against the Kingsmen and Jason was a fourth year at that time. I was a first year. I was a first year. I was playing with pastor named Jeff Claytor I don't know if you know that name and I don't think Pete Nafsker, he's a prophet. The seminary in St Louis was there, but anyhow, we were a little undermanned and I fouled a guy with five seconds to go or something like that. And we're on. The preachers were up one and he and he that God bless him. He missed both free throws. Wow, we barely won. I don't know if the Kingsmen have won since then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they did. Three years ago they beat St Louis here on our turf.
Speaker 2:I'm sure that was very exciting. I go back for an alumni game every. The Peterson Fieldhouse just had its 75th anniversary. Yes, I saw that. Yeah, and I I played just this last week and, uh, it I don't know how many more years I actually a funny, funny thing and there's a video of it which I've not posted, anything like that. I, I got the ball, the game was tied and I I hit it. I made a three with like 10 seconds to go and the crowd, so the alumni actually beat we. They didn't play all of their best players, to be honest, because we were all in our 40s and 50s.
Speaker 2:The Hainer brothers, which shout out to Mark Hainer he loves Greek and Hebrew, he is an exegete of, he's a fantastic pastor, all of them, all of them are. But anyhow, it's fun and I think that kind of the sense of competition I like I can compete toward Jesus. I like competition is not necessarily bad, it's when it leads toward division. I can call you my brother and like I want to. I was just interviewing a young, a young teacher. She's 25. She goes. I am in line with a whole host of teachers, educators, administrators, and she goes and I want to be the best. You know, there's this like godly sense of kind of drive to use our gifts well. It can cross a line, I guess, and move toward pride or division, but I think that that call to offer our best in your line, especially connected to the word of God, which is the best, like that's a, that's a holy, holy thing. Any, any comments, though, to kind of the competitive nature of, of church leaders?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean we, we compete. I mean I'm thinking of Paul in chapter three. I think Paul has a sense of humor in a way. He he presents himself as an example. You know, he's a Pharisee of Pharisees, circumcised on the eighth day, all of this. But then he gives it all up, you know, and it's like he's saying to get ahead in the kingdom you have to, you have to die to yourself. Really, that's what it's all about and there's kind of a twinkle in his eye.
Speaker 1:There's kind of vestiges of Pauline humor and people. You know, that's one of the problems with the New Testament is people take Jesus and Paul so seriously. But actually Jesus was really funny, you know. I mean, this is why he was so popular with the crowds, because he had this keen wit. He was always up against the Pharisees who really were pompous jerks. He was always putting them in their place. How he did it is so creative. But we don't look at it that way. We always look at him as Lord and Savior and of course he is that Lord and Savior and of course he is that.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean his humor is sometimes worth expounding upon. I think, yes, well, we're coming down the homestretch here. Dr Nordling, let's hang with Jesus and the joy of Jesus. One of the funniest stories.
Speaker 2:I'd love to hear your top one or two funny Jesus stories the baptism of John. Where did it come from? Right, right, jesus asked. You know? Well, if you can't, you know they're. They're, they're wrestling, the Pharisees are wrestling. Well, if you can't tell me that, then I'm not going to. You know, I'm not going to tell you this. I mean, he is so, um, ironic, you know he's, he's just so kind, but he just frustrates the heck out of the Pharisees. You're exactly right, they don't have a sense of humor. You know, they don't know the joy of like. Somehow the joy of the delight of the Father has left them and I think there's humor all over. I think when Peter has breakfast on the beach with Jesus I don't know if it's humor I see Jesus like smiling as they're like. You know, no one says anything. They knew it was the Lord. You remember this.
Speaker 2:And then, Jesus centers in do you love me? You know, yeah, you know, okay, here's, here's your call. I think there's. Jesus is so delightful Um, I don't know if that's an adjective you normally use. He delights over us and then he delights when we find joy in the world when we laugh together. So funny stories from Jesus. Top two or three, Dr Nordling.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you know more about that than me, because you're preaching every week and I don't. I mean, I preach quite irregularly, I'm a professor, so I teach, and I'm not even teaching right now, I'm just writing. But for example, he says you know, can you get grapes from thorns? You know that's. You know stuff like that. Do birds or the lilies consider the lilies of the field, how they never toil nor spin. Not even Solomon is arrayed in all his glory as one of these. Stuff like that. That would have been quite humorous the first time they were heard and that's why they were recorded. You know, in Matthew's gospel and I believe you know, david Scare believes in the early dating of Matthew and I basically do too. But it's the foundation upon which the other three, two synoptic gospels depend and even the rest of the New Testament. So when Paul wrote Philippians, he may have had Matthew's gospel as one of the texts, in addition to, of course, all of the Septuagintal Old Testament readings as well.
Speaker 2:Let's just stay with Matthew for a second. What is the early date for Matthew that you—.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, I don't know if I— it would be. I think that I might get this wrong. I think David Scare would argue early 40s, 40s, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Within a decade or so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but Luke is going to be quite a bit later. That would be at the end of the 50s.
Speaker 2:Oh, end of the 50s, okay.
Speaker 1:Coinciding with the three missionary journeys of Paul that are depicted in Acts. And then we would date Mark later still, you know, and John's the latest Mark in priority. So Mark coincides, I believe, with the great fire of Rome, which is 64 AD, as recorded by Tacitus. And then you have John. You just asked about John. Well, bill Weinreich, who's writing the commentary on John, thinks that the Johannine Gospel is early, so he parts with David Scare on that issue. But I guess I, like most people, think that John is later. Sure, you know, at the end of the first century.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why does he say it's early? I'd be curious.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I should know that better. But he's got his reasons.
Speaker 2:Well, it's definitely distinct, yeah it is I mean the upper room discourse one of my favorite pieces of scripture, right? Yeah, I'm just. I'm just throwing out a hypothesis. Maybe because he's so clear with the discourse, he's not always telling a story Like John 13 through 17,. This is one of the longer sections of Jesus talking in all of the Gospels, so maybe that's one reason it could be earlier. But the Chosen you know we don't espouse everything on the Chosen, right? It's extra biblical, the show. Have you watched any of that?
Speaker 1:no, I haven't. What is the chosen?
Speaker 2:oh, it's just a, a fascinating story of the life of jesus in long, in long form. You know, uh, they, they will have other conversations. They're trying to make jesus, he's funny in it, he's accessible, they're to the story. But then there's other conversations that take place. So think of like a miniseries, adding, adding things that took place that we don't know, kind of behind the scenes. So some exegetes are like I don't know that. You can, you should, you should do that necessarily, but you know it's a.
Speaker 2:The reason I bring it up is they have John connected to Mary as she's helping him. Now, I don't know where they get this. I guess this is here's your mother. You know like they had a closer relationship with Jesus, jesus, mother Mary moving forward, that maybe she was there helping him. Remember some of the, some of the details. Don't don't know exactly if that's accurate or not. Anyhow, this has been fun. I've about got to get to another meeting. Let's close with this question what are your top two or three hopes for confessional Lutheranism, especially in the LCMS, in the coming years, dr Nordling?
Speaker 1:Well, I hope that selfishly, that what I bring to the table will bear fruit. You know that more pastors will learn Greek well, not fewer. Because I think it's very important for the ministry that goes on in our secular society, which is so turned against the Lord, that congregations can become bright places where Christ is met. I think that the church of the 21st century is kind of like the church of the first century. You know, right now we have a Caesar in power that many Missouri Synod people like Donald Trump, but that can very quickly change. Like Donald Trump, but that can very quickly change. And no, you know, trust not in princes. They are, but mortal. You know, as the hymn says, so that the congregations will do well.
Speaker 1:You know missions are going pretty well. I've been going to Africa. I've been 14 times to South Africa, oh wow. I've been going to Africa. I've been 14 times to South Africa, oh wow. And there's a great hunger in Africa right now for Fort Wayne professors and seminary professors. I've been to Tanzania and also Kenya and Nigeria four times. So you know we're highly regarded in the world outside of the Missouri Synod. You know we're highly regarded in the world outside of the Missouri Synod and a lot of Lutherans, world Lutherans, want to learn from us. Right now it happens that way, so I think that will. I've been telling the African students that I teach that maybe you're going to have to become missionaries to America, that I teach that maybe you're going to have to become missionaries to America because in our inner cities they're not going to listen to a white guy like me, but they may listen to you, you know, and I mean I really do think that the time is not far where that could happen, but that we just be faithful with the things that the Lord gives.
Speaker 1:Something else is this whole CC. I know you interviewed Christian Preuss, but that is really a very exciting movement where the Consortium of Classical Lutheran Educators, where they're doing a lot of homeschooling, teaching Latin and classical subjects, that movement is really taking off, you know, and it's kind of, in a way, back to the way things used to be, but not really. I mean, it's very present focused and future focused, because these children are getting a very good education and that will take them places. So, even while classics is kind of dying out because of wokeism and so forth, latin and Greek are taking off in our circles. Okay, so I just last summer went to the CCLE annual meeting in Seward and I was just amazed they had 500 people there. They're bursting at the seams and a lot of our Fort Wayne grads are our headmasters or cantors, and I mean that's a very exciting thing too, that the Lord blesses us right with the type of Christians that we are. So I guess that's what I'm thinking. That's wonderful.
Speaker 2:I believe in the next 20 years or so. I think there is. I don't know if we'd use the term revival per se. Lutherans are skittish on revival. It seems kind of out of control, maybe charismatic or something like that. But I think there's an awakening of our younger people toward the basics, toward what grounds us, and you mentioned a loaded word like wokeism. You know that, finding our identity I think it's a lot around.
Speaker 2:Identity, dr Nardoleen, anything other than who we are as a baptized child of God and the mission that God has called us to by the power of his spirit, to bring his word that never changes, that grounds us, that is above us and beyond us, that that desire for you could say the transcendent, made evident in the person of Jesus Christ, is. There's an opportunity for us right now, in confessional mission, missional and I will use mission like we're on mission to make Jesus known. Right, we get to train up people in a variety of different vocations in our local context to see that the fields are ripe under the harvest, that there are people walking in darkness in need of the light of Jesus, and so, in the midst of disagreement in our church body and I'm, you know, as it relates to formation. I guess I'm a voice in that wider conversation and I'm, you know, as it relates to formation, I guess I'm a voice in that wider conversation. I truly believe that exegetes like yourself hold the church together around our common mission and confession.
Speaker 2:During times where we're just trying to I've used this word a lot, dr Nordling, it's a liminal space we're trying we don't exactly know how to get meaning not just around workers but mobilizing all of the priesthood. We know the church has walked through liminal times, the early church, like how is this all going to go Right? And within generations the gospel moved forward and became predominant. You know the way of Jesus became predominant in the culture and we could see a shift toward that end. And I think exegetes like yourself are huge, keeping us focused on Jesus and his word. So thank you so much for the time. Dr Nordling, if people want to connect with you, I know you're on sabbatical right now. Thank you for taking time to talk to me People.
Speaker 1:That's my email and then, if you're, interested in our next conference for Lutheranism and the Classics. That's going to be October 3rd and 4th 2025. If you do a Google search for Lutheranism in the Classics, it'll come right up and you can look at, you can register for it already. That's open so, but it's going to be a joint conference with the CCLE, the Consortium of Classical Lutheran Educators, so there will be a lot of people. There's going to be 40 papers, all Three plenaries, one banquet, 24 Lutheranism in the classic sectional papers, and then 12, or is it 10, 12 CCLE papers. So there's going to be 40. So that's a lot. We're going to have a lot of energy here for that I love it.
Speaker 2:So, hey, good stuff. What a joy to meet you via technology and looking forward to staying connected, praying for both of our seminaries and for churches at the grassroots, trying to be faithful, carrying by word and sacraments the message of Jesus out into the world. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in podcasts. That helps get the word out, as we at the ULC seek to have uniting conversations and also some harder, harder conversations. But this was a uniting. We can all agree, dr Nordling, the word of God and the original languages are a great thing to know, learn and preserve. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thank you so much, dr Nordling. Okay.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, dr Northing. Okay, thank you.