The Tim Ahlman Podcast

Do LCMS Women Actually Have a Voice?

• Unite Leadership Collective • Episode 28

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Sandy Wendelin has led faithfully for 41 years—but she’s come dangerously close to walking away more than once. Why? Because the Church still doesn’t know how to handle conflict. In this raw, honest episode, Sandy and Tim expose the unspoken tensions in church leadership: from failed mergers, second-chair burnout, passive-aggressive church culture, and what happens when we fawn instead of fight.

Plus, they tackle the hard questions: Why are we so slow to change? Are LCMS women truly empowered to lead? And is our obsession with tradition stopping the Gospel from moving forward?

Whether you're a pastor, DCE, teacher, or lay leader—this one will hit home.

🔔 Subscribe, comment, and share your experience. Let’s start having the hard conversations that move the Church forward.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Tim Wallman Podcast. It's a beautiful day to be alive. Pray, the joy of Jesus is your strength as I get to hang out with one of my favorite humans on planet Earth. This leader impacted my journey more than she probably knows, and her husband as well. You know, when you're in those early years of trying to do something for the first time and you know, you know you're not very good at it and you got some opportunities for growth you need those kind encouragers, friends, who are just a little bit ahead of you on the journey, to give you courage and to care for one another. And I get to hang out with Sandy Wendelin today. She has been a 41-year director of Christian education. She has worn a ridiculous amount of hats all in one congregation my first calling congregation out of seminary Bethlehem Lutheran Church and School United in Mission in Lakewood, colorado. So how are you doing, sandy? What a joy to be with you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm good, good. What a Colorado. So how are you doing, sandy? What a joy to be with you. Yeah, I'm good, good. What a wonderful introduction, and I get to call you one of my five favorite Tims.

Speaker 1:

You've got a lot of Tims in your life. She's very good.

Speaker 2:

A lot of fabulous Tims in my life, and number one, of course, being my husband. Yeah, you fall behind him. Oh well, thank you.

Speaker 1:

I'm overjoyed for our conversation today. Let's hunt the good stuff as we get going. Sandy, right now, what are you most passionate about in ministry? Let's start there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and that that's so fun to think about because I am passionate about ministry right now and that's a great place to be. You know, there's moments, there's ebbs and flows where you're not, and I'm in a good place right now where I am. So a couple of really exciting things are happening as a Bethlehem church body that I can get really jazzed about, get really behind. One is just the possibility of expanding our kind of footprint on the west side of Denver. We've been talking with a church that's just not doing so well and the pastor's been there a number of years. He's ready to move on and just kind of doesn't know how to do that. So he may know how to do it, but he just doesn't want to do it quite yet. And so we're talking about partnering with them, coming alongside and kind of bringing the Bethlehem who we are and our good, solid systems into place in another congregation and then maybe even thinking about what does that mean for some other congregations in our area that might be in that same place, and can we take a healthy system, healthy church system, and help other churches get to that place as well? So I get jazzed about being a part of that. Definitely I get really excited and this will sound funny about hiring.

Speaker 2:

I am passionate about hiring people. Right now I'm doing a lot of hiring for our Early Learning Center, our summer camp and our before and after school program, so got to hire I think it's 11 people in the next month. And you know what's so great about hiring? It's leadership development, right. You start right there, it's from the outside, and bringing them on in. And so, yeah, just finding out who people are, what their passions, their gifts are, their talents, bring it into a conversation and seeing what we have available and matching that up and making a good match and bringing them on board and helping them become a part of the ministry. And that's exciting, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I love it. I love it. Well, I got two follow-up questions based on that. When you use the word systems, Sandy, what do you mean by systems? This is a leadership podcast, so we care about culture, system and structures, big, why, mission, vision, values, all of all of those types of things. When you use systems, some some church leaders are like I don't even know what that that means. Could you drill down a little bit in terms of your understanding of systems?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I mean, there's there's so many ways of looking at that, but what I'm talking about is, you know, churches do the preaching, teaching right. That's why we existed. Administration of the sacraments and that's important, that's the main thing, that's why we come together happen that maintains the building, that provides the IT so that we can communicate with our people. That, yeah, that just makes ministry happen. So there's that kind of internal structure and systems. And then there and you know, I'm thinking about like what our executive director does, so it's oversight of the facilities and HR and IT and all of those kinds of things. So those are kind of the internal systems.

Speaker 2:

And then I think about how we deliver ministry, so how people come to connect with Jesus in this place. So we think of discipleship and we think of leadership development or recruitment of volunteers, those kinds of things. Those are all the systems that I talk about. And so, while we're strong in some of those things, we still have to shore up some of those things. But I'll tell you, thinking about doing it in another place really motivates you towards, towards movement. You know you really get excited about, uh, uh, shoring everything up.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of conversation right now Thank you for that Uh going on between churches who are looking to to care for one another, and you know we're in a we're in a couple of different conversations right now with potential mergers and, um, yeah, that's we're. We're kind of slow playing that, sandy, to be quite honest, it's uh, it's not something to walk into inadvisedly or lightly. That sounds like language, right, uh, but but reverently, deliberately, like uh, to pull back, because you, you take a number of the stories, right, our cultures are based on this kind of shared story of what that ministry did and that shared story does not your shared story at Bethlehem moving into another place or for we at Christ Greenfield into another place. That's a very difficult move. We're working on our long-range multi-site strategy right now, making sure everything's shored up.

Speaker 1:

Shout out to the Unstuck Group. They worked with Redeemer in Fort Collins, a number of other LCMS congregations and obviously beyond, and they gave some data in terms of mergers. That is pretty alarming how infrequently they work well, really. Yeah, they're like it's a difficult thing and obviously you're like if this is going to work, there needs to be the end of one thing and the start of another thing. But you're still there in that place where that other organization has years, decades and decades of memory, and it's just, it's challenging. It requires a lot of EQ skills, a lot of time and trust to even to even get there, and from their perspective, they'd much rather launch something new in a new place with a brand new, new memory. Not that it can't work, it's just to be entered into advisedly. I'm not saying that to give you any instruction.

Speaker 1:

I'm actually giving myself more instruction because I really, I really want to, I really want to partner. You know, and you really want to care, but it's but it's difficult Any any more. Follow-up to that, sandy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, you know you talk about family systems, okay, and that whole family systems theory that can be applied to the church too. You know, there's, like you, like you're saying, there's that history, there's that shared story, there's the joys and the challenges that have occurred, the hurts, the wounds, the damage, as well as the celebrations and and yeah, how do you do that? And the way that we're talking about is really kind of what you suggest that we realize that we have to acknowledge, recognize, celebrate where people have been and give people an opportunity to adjust to, maybe, where they need to go and what they need to do in light of a new reality, of a new reality and um, and then really kind of come in and say this is, it is a new, it's a new day, um, yeah, In light, in light of all that.

Speaker 1:

but yeah, it's crazy stuff here's, here's. The thing to consider is like there's the asset of a property. That is significant, you know, in markets like ours where property is expensive. That's one of the primary reasons why partnering with other churches is winsome is because we don't have to. Maybe there's a partnership and less expensive. It's just less expensive to launch a church that way. So definitely not a no, but maybe and we'll see how it goes is kind of our perspective right now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, Well, and we're slowing down a little bit on it. The pastor isn't, you know he's not there yet because he's working through all of this stuff, right yeah? And so, yeah, we're slowing down and God will use that. There's an opportunity to say who do we need to be? Where do we need to be? What is God doing in this time of not yet? Right yeah?

Speaker 1:

Let's uh, let's get into your story a little bit. I really wanted to go down the hiring piece, but there's so much more to share about your story. Um so, as you look back at how you've evolved as a leader, 41 years at one congregation is amazing. What are three things that you're most proud of, Sandy, in your ministry journey?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks, thanks for asking. I don't know that this is the first thing that I should lead with proud of, but what I'm joy-filled about and feel blessed about is that I actually have been in this space, in this place. I'm called to this church that has allowed me to serve here for so long, to be a leader, to be a woman in ministry, all of those things. So I'm so grateful for Bethlehem. So I'll start with that and then I think of some things that have happened along the way that just I didn't know. You know we all get into ministry we don't know, we don't know how God's going to use us, what's going to happen, and all of that and some of the things that just have brought me joy along the way. Lifelight We've had LifeLight at Bethlehem 35 years started with your father in law actually, yeah, back in the day when he was hanging out here. Yeah, started. That little ministry grew to, you know, a ministry that 250 people would be in the word on a weekend in small groups, all of that. What I love about that is, before, the leadership pipeline was even language that anybody would use. That's how we set up LifeLight. We had leaders. We had, you know, groups. We had leaders. We had we called them something different but we had coaches and we had a director and it worked. You know it freed up staff. I mean it was enabling lay people to move into leadership roles and really do some amazing things. I would say, because of that, I consider and I didn't do the preaching teaching part of that, I didn't not the teaching part of that Pastor Langwish does that so but I built the structure around it and maintained that over the years in various levels. So just that Bethlehem is now what I would consider a biblically literate place because of a ministry where people are in the Word, and it's morphed. Now it's not as structured as it has been and we're doing it in homes now. You know Bible study in people's homes and Bible study via Zoom and all of that. So you know it's come along with the times and so that's great. So Life Flight is a cool thing.

Speaker 2:

I love so much about the church and I love serving in the church. I love being a part of the church. I like just I love the church so much and I have had an opportunities and this might be a metaphor of building the church. I've served on four building committees and that I've loved, that. It actually has been so much fun seeing this building change and then getting to do the decorating and all of that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2:

So you know, that's a that's a part of my evolution as a leader is, you know, learning how to work in that kind of environment, in that kind of world.

Speaker 2:

And I would say, probably the thing that has brought me the most joy and was totally unexpected, you know, you said I've worn many hats, but I loved that time I got to work with our early learning center for just a minute it was supposed to be a year, it turned out to be seven taking it from a one room, one teacher kind of situation in our school to, at that time it was four years and about 10 teachers serving, you know, four times the amount of kids that we started out with and now they've even grown beyond that where our preschool is the largest part of our ministry. But yeah, that was an unexpected little path, but who knew, you know, and just it was so good. So, yeah, just all of those things kind of shape you in leadership and I think that's part of you know, an attribute of being adaptable, and they call me the gap filler around here. You know you need something done. You know I'll fill that gap for a minute.

Speaker 1:

Sandy, you're I've told you this before, but maybe not publicly You're a tremendous leader. I know your identity rests in Christ, but he made you so adaptable. People love being on your teams. I remember my early years being on your discipleship team, ministry action team and getting to think through small groups and Bible studies, integrated with LifeLight, like you were just talking about, and you would host us at your home. I remember some kind of vision strategic retreats you'd host at your home. I mean you were ahead of the curve on so many different levels in terms of team leadership and I just want to go deeper into that.

Speaker 1:

What are your primary values for leading a team? Well, because you build trust, you build consensus, you build on vision and then you move toward execution. That's how God created Sandy Wendland, and the church is way, way better for it. And just sitting at your feet I mean getting to watch you work over the years was just such an extreme pleasure, because I don't think I've told you this, but a lot of the way you led is how. Then, when the Lord called me here to Christ Greenfield 12 years ago, it was just like in me, and it wasn't because I needed those first five years at Bethlehem and I honestly look at I wish it had been longer because I had way more to learn with you. But I'm just being a part of your team, carried over. You have a multiplying effect with the people that you you work with. So what are some of those characteristics that make for good team leadership in your estimations, andy?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think you have to know where you're going. No, that's the first thing. What's the vision? What estimations, andy? Yeah, I think you have to know where you're going. No, that's the first thing. What's the vision? What do we want to accomplish here?

Speaker 2:

And connecting that to what God wants us to accomplish together in a place yeah, helping or equipping people to understand what that vision is, because that's going to get messed with so often. You know, whenever there's problems, whenever there's conflict, whenever there's difficulty, the vision gets messed with, and so the leadership has to be keeping that the main thing all the time. What does God want us to do in this place at this time and what are what this team is doing to accomplish that? So that just has to be right out there, doing, doing to accomplish that, so that just has to be right out there. And then working with with folks to just realize who they are and how God has created them, and celebrating that. Well, first of all, helping them explore it.

Speaker 2:

You know everybody comes into into any kind of role really hesitant and, especially in the church, like they want to do it right. Right, they don't want to dishonor God or do something wrong or feel like the church doesn't appreciate them. People want to do things right, but really what they need to be focusing on is you know, who did God create them to be, what are their gifts, what's their passion, what has God planted in them, what's their personality, style, all of those things and helping them to celebrate that and to say I can use that to the church functions best is is in a team environment. Um, yeah, I'm trying to think of other things that are are important in that, you know, celebrating together, being, um, working alongside each other, just shoulder to shoulder, serving, you know, and encouraging each other, building each other up and when there's difficulty, but yeah, no, that's so good.

Speaker 1:

I love your story and I know there have been really really great times and really really hard times. As you look back, obviously you know you're sensitive to everything and you want to put the best construction. But what are, what are some of those moments? And let's just hunt the hard stuff here just for a minute. What was the hardest part about being at Bethlehem for as long as you've been there, sandy?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know, you know that there have been probably three times that I've been on the brink, just on the brink of saying this isn't my place anymore. God, are you calling me away? And yet I think in those times he wasn't calling me away, it was me thinking I needed to leave because obviously I'm not gone. So he still puts that stamp, that call on you to stay, call on you to stay. And yeah, those times are when something in me has been pushed or challenged to the edge and I didn't know how to, how to overcome it. I just didn't know how to to work around it, how to get um, get beyond it.

Speaker 2:

And you know that that comes down to to conflict. You know, between people, basically Um, so those, those are um, those are the hard times. And um, when you can't, when you can't get to the other side of a conflict, cause conflict's, neutral right, nothing. There doesn't have to be conflict, doesn't have to be bad when there's difficulty. But there comes a time when the needs aren't met. You know what's behind conflict is unmet needs. And so when, whatever my need is, or vision, or whatever, and if it, if that doesn't occur, sometimes there's a bypass and you have to part ways and then work through, you know, with God, you know how this is all, why this has happened, and you know part of coming to the other side of that is resilience and learning what God has for you on the other side of it.

Speaker 2:

But, yeah, the difficult times at Bethlehem, I think, just squeeze you into the again, the person that God is creating you to be for him, for you and for his purpose. So early days were usually around structural kinds of when I got systems kinds of things like you know the boards bug you or do something or the council is weird. You know you have to deal with them. There's always conflict and the sad thing is there's often conflict with pastors and the other workers. We're in that very unique situation in that we have many, many staff, you know. So there's a lead pastor and then there's a lot of second chair kind of people, a lot of director level kind of people, and so, yeah, there's oftentimes conflict there. Dces often leave ministry within the first five to seven years because of conflict with pastors right.

Speaker 2:

And yeah, and not knowing how to get to the other side of that, and so and those are, honestly, those have been my pressure points along the way um have been, have been with, with senior pastor yeah, whom I dearly love. Right, that's what's behind, yeah, stay. What's behind all of that? You know you've got your things, but behind all of that is a love for the church, a love for our savior and a love for the person, and yet you persevere through that.

Speaker 1:

Amen. Hey, let's talk your philosophy of conflict and just go a little bit deeper. When are you one? Are you a fighter? You get out of it. Are you freezing, fawning, like what are some of your? When the amygdala hijack, inevitably happens, and which happens? You get triggered. Your values collide with another person's values, like how have you come to know your automatic responses and how have you learned to kind of regulate those automatic responses toward a direction that's more healthy, that brings unity, listening, care and collaboration? Could you talk about that, sandy?

Speaker 2:

listening, care and collaboration. Could you talk about that, sandy? Yeah, absolutely, um. So such a timely question. We just had an off-site retreat last week. The topic was conflict, so we use the thompson killman um, you know model, so I'm not aware.

Speaker 2:

Tell me about it, you're not okay, so that you, you actually mentioned the attributes that are in that particular conflict. So do you move to competing, collaborating, compromising, avoiding, accommodating. So you look at what is your assertiveness. You know how they're always on a scale. So there's the assertiveness part of the scale and then there's the cooperative part of the scale. I'm highly assertive, I'm on the cooperative scale kind of right here. I'm highly assertive, I'm on the cooperative scale kind of right here. So and so I kind of land in that competing quadrant as my natural, my natural place.

Speaker 2:

When conflict arises, I want to fight, you know. So when I'm threatened, there's the fight, fight, flight, fawn and freeze and I'll go. I'll go to fight. You know that's my natural, that's my natural place. And so, realizing that, so that particular model will say, while you have a natural place that you land in conflict, your goal is to understand others in their conflict and adapt, right, modify, so that you can get to the heart of the matter, so that you can actually have conversation. And so, while my natural position might be competing, I might need to realize that collaboration needs to happen in that situation, that competing isn't going to be helpful because if I'm with somebody that's competitive also.

Speaker 2:

So this is where PL Pastor Langlish and I will be. He's competitive, I'm competitive, we'll come at it. We'll go into conflict and we almost enjoy the fight. I don't that might be an extreme, but we can get to that place of just do the conflicting because we need to just get it all out and all of that and we can move on. Others around us are like whoa, what just happened? There Are Sandy and Peele. Okay, are they going to be able to?

Speaker 1:

you know, work together and you know it's like Like no, we've done this a hundred times in the last 41,. You know this is a normal thing.

Speaker 2:

I remember being in meetings.

Speaker 1:

I remember being in meetings with you early on and I was like, wow, this is fascinating. I almost wanted to get some popcorn and just kind of sit back and watch it.

Speaker 2:

go on, if you can manage your emotions that way, then it's really good. But you know, we have a lot of really really wonderful, tender people who are like that conflict is going to result in separation, Right, and so you have to realize that you know, um, understanding that my need to conflict this way and and fight because I feel something is threatened is, um, is not always the most helpful way. So, you know, I I like to get to. You know, regulating the emotions, that's a, that's a crazy one.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, we not only did we just have that that little session, but then yesterday I had a difficult conflict with a staff person, someone on the lead team, and so, yeah, I'm thinking about conflict and I'm like that did not end well, and the thing I had to go back to so I had to go back to everything that I know in myself in dealing with conflict is I've got to get gritty about it.

Speaker 2:

You know, I got to keep the main thing, the main thing I've got to, you know, work towards my what's my passion, and I've got to persevere through this in a way that it can be received towards the end, which is unity with this person, Having my need, my concern heard and then responded to the person froze, totally, froze totally said I'll think about that or no, maybe I'll think about that, Like okay, yeah, so there we sat, so it's unresolved conflict, right, but I had to remove my emotion from it and that's hard. And that's hard, yeah, that's hard. So that's self-regulation Again, bringing all things in my world together. I just came off a Christ-centered, trauma-informed yoga retreat and we're talking about regulating and the body tells the story. Right, the issues are in the tissues. So you've got, you've got all this stuff that your, your body holds when you don't let the emotions start to to be.

Speaker 1:

And it is a risk, but it's a calculated risk and I think it's a risk worth taking to share what you saw and you can't control how other people respond to what you saw. And I would much rather if we're, because the church generally and I have research on this for my doctor the church generally is an overly passive place. We think a lot of things but we don't say those things to one another and that is the worst. I mean, the conflict not had is the worst conflict because inevitably will explode and people will leave and then a lot of people will be like what happened here. The church is epic for this, but the person's just been stewing on it for a long period of time having the internal conversation that never and they probably have catastrophized that other person. They probably said and I'm going to put myself in that lead person's shoes and we're being very general, which is very kind, it's wonderful.

Speaker 1:

But I could be thinking right now, if I'm passively imbalanced, sandy's the worst, like Sandy, she doesn't like me, she doesn't see. Sandy doesn't know what I'm going through, like yeah, and that's, that's the worst you know. So kudos to you and to any leader who says you know what, if I'm going to be slightly imbalanced, I'm going to be a little bit more on the frank side, not on the. There's a, there's an extreme where you can be a jerk, that's for sure. But you've been there for 41 years. You obviously the heart and love of Jesus Do, you do you go too far sometimes in that conversation, maybe, but I'd much rather I'm just saying I'd much rather be there than on the overly passive side. Anything more to say there, sandy?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So what happens when you don't you know, when you don't bring something to light, you know it's like, it's like staying in the darkness and we know that that's not healthy. That's where Satan lives and, yeah, you need to bring things to the light and that has to happen in individuals, that has to happen in the church, it has to happen in all places. I think that you know, when we look at the church, it definitely we definitely have, as a church body, dealt with conflict and difficulty and what's important to us, what's in our heart, in a way that has not moved us forward right, has kept things under the water and and sometimes even that fawn. So you know, we always think flight, fight, flight and freeze.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, freeze.

Speaker 1:

But that fawn, talk about fawning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, talk about fawning.

Speaker 2:

I'm just going to accommodate, I'm just going to go along with the flow. I'm just along with the flow. I'm just it's easier to to um back away and say all is good when the the, the real thing that needs to be addressed to move the kingdom forward, is not addressed and so it's slow. I think that's why we become so slow in in being able to move, you know, being able to do what's absolutely important for the church, yeah being able to move, you know, being able to do what's absolutely important for the church?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that that, in terms of family systems, that is the posture of the abused lover in the home. They the, the alcoholic, the addict, the abuser, whatever is there, and the person just develops a kind of a numbness. There's no vision for the future, there's no ability to speak for self, and so they're just flat. Uh, yeah, it's gonna happen again. It just is. It just is what it is, but I don't have any. There's no hope.

Speaker 1:

I mean, it's a hopeless place to be I think the fond characteristic is actually worse, because freezing actually allows you, hopefully, to think, to move from amygdala to your prefrontal cortex and to strategize. How frank or not do I need to be right now to keep a solid sense of self? But the fawning. I think the fawning feature has not been delved into enough as it relates to the ministry of the local church. It could be the lay leader who's been looking at things for so long.

Speaker 1:

Why does not just the pastor but the board or whatever? And they're just like well, you know, why does not just the pastor but the board or whatever? And they're just like well, it is what it is. And then they just occupy a pew for years and well then, eventually and this has happened I don't like no one really actually cares that I'm here, I lead in the marketplace in a pretty healthy direction, but well oh well, no one cares about my perspective. And then they're eventually just gone and people like where'd Frank go? You know well, frank was fawning in the pews for years, but with not with no ability to be heard or his vision to be shared, because conflict was so avoided in the local congregation. Anything more to say there, sandy?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, well, and I've been thinking a lot about church hurt these days, you know, and that's that's how it happens. You know, I didn't get something I needed from the church and whatever that is, you know it might've been Grandpa Smith wasn't visited in the hospital in his final days, and I expect the church to do that. I didn't get communion when I was at home, whatever it was, or my prayer was missed in church and I thought you would pray for me, or it might be that, you know, whatever, whatever people leave for all this whole range of reasons, and I think it is because and perhaps it's because we don't have an environment where we encourage people to to conflict or to even share what's on their mind. But yeah, they just, it just sits there and festers and then they go away. And yeah, when things just boil, when things just fester, they'll boil up, they'll come out at some point, right?

Speaker 1:

So it's tragic, sandy, because eternity is on the line here. Yeah, right, when things just fester, they'll boil up. They'll come out at some point, right? Well, it's tragic, sandy, because eternity is on the line here. Yeah, right, I mean people could walk away from not just the church but from Jesus if we're not more comfortable and competent at handling difficult conversations. And first one of the cross wins. Right, I have to get to my perspective. Where I have some sort of this is the book Difficult Conversations.

Speaker 1:

I own some contribution to the dysfunction. Can I get to my level of contribution to this dysfunction? My intent was good, but the way my execution may have been poor in some way shape or form. Maybe trust hadn't been developed enough. That's my favorite. Do you trust me If I'm heading into difficult conversations Sometimes? I mean it sounds kind of cheesy to a degree. Do you trust me? I really care for you, you're valuable here, your contribution is so impactful. And then I kind of just the quicker I can just say whatever it is that needs to be adjusted, that needs to be adjusted, and then just be quiet and let the spirit kind of work. The odds of that relationship growing are so much stronger. And then they come back and say, hey, I didn't have the right information or you said it in a way that I wasn't prepared for. Oh, that wasn't my intention, please forgive me. And we do.

Speaker 1:

And then we move forward. We move forward through conflict. Is growth through stress, through, I thinking, resistance training? Right, you're into working out. Through resistance training, those muscles get stronger and and the body in turn gets gets stronger. It's not in and around our art. We're going to get to our church body, but we have embraced passive, aggressive behavior in our church body and it's very dysfunctional. We don't talk to people. We talk about people to other, to other people. And, yeah, it's a. It's an opportunity for us to grow and to work from places of commonality. Right, cause it just with your staff member. There's so much that you share and love about that person, right, and you're going to resolve that conflict. It's going to happen, probably just right after this podcast, to be quite honest. But yeah, I mean, there's so much that you love about that person and we're going to grow in and through it. We have to own our contribution to the inevitable struggle. Anything more to say there about owning, confessing your contribution to the struggle?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh gosh, I think, yeah, and I think that was the because we're not there yet. That was a disappointing part with my staff person, right, is I it? You got to own a little bit of it. I'll own a lot of it. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. Pride is a real thing. Pride is a real thing, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

Right and we don't like to confess. Let's be honest, we're like the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Crumbs are all over our face and it's very evident. But there's something in me that keeps me from confessing and I'm a firstborn type A driven and that's been probably the biggest learning for me is growing and sitting in the midst of and actually finding joy in, in hunting my contribution to this struggle and I find joy in it because in the other side of it there's more trust and there's growth. We always get better as a ministry. Anything more there, Sandy, Always.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, always yeah. And just back to that trust thing that you know, trust just doesn't happen by saying the words right, yeah, that that comes in relationship, that comes in spending time together, by, um, yeah, working through things together. And so we talk around here about conflicting. Well, and when you conflict, well then trust is built. You know, I think that comes on the other side of doing hard things together, and not only hard things but good things. So playing together builds trust, you know. So in the church you do things like you meet regularly, you play regularly, you pray regularly, you eat together. You know you share life with each other. That's the stuff that builds trust. And, yeah, and that can't be prescribed, that can't be ritualized or whatever. You just have to create the environments for that to happen.

Speaker 1:

Well, you use the word ritual. Rituals are always for relationship. This is why we do our liturgy. We have our standard. Ritual gives comfort. And you mentioned a ritual of play and retreating. See, when I've bowled with someone or I've went out on hikes with someone, or I'm thinking of other things, oh, I've done competitive go-kart racing with that person, or been in an escape room trying to solve problems. These are all kind of retreat things that we do a couple, three times. Oh, played pickleball with that person.

Speaker 2:

You know, like were you around when we took the Jeeps up the hill, yeah, and then we all had to drive that. I had to drive a Jeep down a mountain. I don't know how to drive a Jeep down a mountain, so good so what that does is it builds corporate memory.

Speaker 1:

I've done these fun, adventurous things with that person and so I don't. I can kind of depersonalize the issue. It's not just about Sandy. No, it's about something we're trying to solve together because we always want to make the person the problem. No, no, no, the person is not the problem. This problem is the problem the way it was evolved, but it doesn't make you, because we obviously, in conflict, always want to go to identity. Right, if you come at this thing that I did or said, that means not only did I do something that's bad, but I am bad, and you're just affirming what my parents said or my coach said or whatever, and we're building this whole big narrative in our head, right? No, no, no, let's just talk about the problem. We've done fun things together, we've laughed together, we've cried through hard times together. Let's just work on this on this struggle together.

Speaker 2:

We've cried through hard times together.

Speaker 1:

Let's just work on this, on this struggle together. Sandy, anything more there we want to? Yeah, exactly, no, it's good, that was good Voluntary. Hey, let's, let's come down the homestretch here. Let's talk second chair leadership. There's a lot of leaders, you know, commissioned ministers and I'm right now thinking we're going to have a conversation around commission ministers and their voice in Synod and they felt, you know, you've maybe felt like your voice isn't always heard, and I think, whether you're an assistant or associate pastor, maybe that kind of victim mentality can kind of be there as well. How have you been able to maintain and I know you've coached others in maintaining the right posture as a second chair leader, sandy?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I actually, you know, part of what I realize is that in our environment we have a lot of second chair leaders. I mentioned that and so we're unique in that most churches in the LCMS have a pastor, and if they're big enough, they might have a second person and that would be a second chair leader. We have a whole cadre of second chair leaders. So it's a whole different kind of environment. So I look at it more as how do I lead up or influence up and lead down? Yeah, so it's the lead up and lead down thing. And when I think about leading up, that's more about influencing and it is more about how do I understand those that are above me? And so it is coming to grips and comfort with the fact that you are second chair, you're not the pastor. Yeah, so stay in your lane and use your gifts to the fullest. You know, that's the first thing, and for me, because I've struggled with this, because leadership is a strong gift of mine not teaching, not preaching, not teaching, not preaching, because leadership and administration is so strong, to be in a second chair is really hard. You have to realize that you're second chair, no matter what, and so the skills that you have to develop, to lead up are very different. How can I be? I have to ask the question how can I be a part of a shared vision? How can I be a part of the next steps, realizing that that still has to come from first chairperson?

Speaker 2:

You know some, from the pastor it's or in collaboration.

Speaker 2:

You know in community and you know fortunately I've been in an environment where it has been very collaborative and very much a team kind of thing.

Speaker 2:

But understanding the people you work with, their gifts, their passions, their abilities, their contribution to the kingdom is, and then, surrounding yourself, realizing that God is the God of the church he created and brought together those people for that time in our, in our Bethlehem Lutheran Church. So I need to get to know them. I need to understand who God created them to be and what their calling is and come around side them with what I can bring to the fullest and doing it to the fullest. So I tend to think some people and I've done it too will hold back on the strengths because I don't feel like it's appropriate for a second chair leader to be so strong in those things and it's like no God, god, that's how he created me and so just doing that to the absolute fullest. I think it is a part of all, a part of that conflicting. Well, all of the things that we were talking about are all of all of those things that are Well.

Speaker 1:

you've done very well, sandy. I'm so grateful for you. Last question. Last question what do you love most about being in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and where do you think we need to grow as a church body? Words of encouragement and challenge. Let's close.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love, I mean I love the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. You know, been born raised, you know all of that thing throughout my life, so it's what I know, so there's comfort in that. But that's not why I love the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Our foundation on biblical teaching, scriptural truths permeating our theology and our life, is what I love, and that we're not afraid and we don't back down on things that are truth, that are from God's word, and so that's what I love about the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Where I think we need to be challenged is finding a way to provide that biblical truth and foundation in a way that people can receive it right. So that's all in. So that's all in.

Speaker 2:

How do we deliver the truth, how do we deliver God's word? And I think we're stuck in. It must be done one way that our heritage and our wonderful heritage and culture drive us more and our practices drive us too much. I think we have to look at other ways. How can the truth of God's word, the biblical foundation that we build our church on, be delivered to people in a way that they can hear it? And that takes a lot of creativity. You're doing that with. You know who's the curator of the word and how we deliver it. It's our seminaries. But is that the only way that that can be delivered? I think there's a lot of ways that God's word can be delivered, that we think there's a lot of ways that God's word can be delivered that we have to explore.

Speaker 1:

And that's our challenge.

Speaker 1:

I think so.

Speaker 1:

I think it's understanding and respecting and rejoicing in various contexts and trusting, then, leaders in their context who have been raised up, most of us in the same same system, right, whether it's the Concordias or our seminaries, and, yeah, we, we have the same, the same confession.

Speaker 1:

The struggle, the struggle is, I'll just be pointed, is my, my vows, ordination vows, were not actually to the synod constitution and bylaws, right, they were to the scripture and the Lutheran confessions and bylaws, just as they've changed. In our congregation, I mean, we did a complete overhaul and I'm saying the LCMS is way more complex than one congregation, to be sure, but bylaws can change, the process can change, and how does it change? It changes through hopefully winsome conversation around areas of growth, and our podcasts, and the Unite Leadership Collective in general is just highlighting one of those areas of growth in terms of leadership development, raising up local leaders, and there's other areas. But our call, especially because the Valley is growing, you know, in Maricopa County we get a thousand new people a week right now moving in, moving into Maricopa County, we've got some work to do.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, the gospel needs to get in their hands, exactly. The gospel needs to get into their ears and believed in their, in their hearts. And it's going to take all sorts of people doing all sorts of different things and we think that Lutherans should be in the kingdom expanding church planning movement rather than just a lot of the non-denoms that understand system structure, scale leadership development. Raised up Craig Groeschel, actually at Life Church Now we're not an altar pulpit fellowship, obviously with Life Church, but he was asked recently for all of your different campus pastors, we would think of them more as like a campus director, because he's doing the primary and I'm not getting into the video debate right now in terms of preaching.

Speaker 1:

But he was asked do you go to, like, where do you find your people? And he goes. Well, it's not the seminary, because we do it a certain way here in LifeChurch and so we need to have seen the character of Christ around the shared culture, value system mission at LifeChurch and so obviously we're going to raise up our future campus pastors internally, you know. But right now I mean for this conversation I get labeled a liberal because I'm talking about leadership development at the local level. That's unusual to me, because if you listen to our preaching and teaching, we're anything but liberal, sandy, any take there.

Speaker 2:

I hear you, I hear you with that. So this group of people that I was with this week and I'm telling them what I do, and they said you know, in our church we'd call you a pastor, so you know, they just it's just a different kind of frame of reference and we've got a system that that makes it happen. But you know what's the main thing we want to get? We want to get people knowing and loving Jesus. Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1:

What's your prayer for women who lead, whether it's deaconess, dce, teacher administrator.

Speaker 2:

What is your prayer for women leading the LCMS, Sandy? Yeah, yeah, so I. My prayer is that they're in a place that they can be who God created them to be, that they can live that out fully. Yeah, that they know their important place in kingdom work. That it is important that they can use their gifts and abilities fully to give glory to God and that they can teach others to do the same. And, honestly, that's my prayer for men too.

Speaker 1:

The church sounds like a good prayer for all humans and women. I'm so grateful for you, Sandy. This has been super fun. If people want to connect with you and your ministry, how can they do so?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, BethlehemLutheranChurchcom. No, BethlehemDenvercom is our website.

Speaker 1:

And yeah, of course, email or whatever, you're a dear friend, thanks for saying yes to do this with me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah having fun talking with you about the church and what you're passionate about. No question.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's good. This is the Tim Allman Podcast, and Sandy tell Tim hey for me. Thanks for allowing me to be one of your top five Tims. That's cool.

Speaker 2:

I'm grateful for that I know a lot more. You're the top five, so I want that to be seen as a compliment.

Speaker 1:

Uh, thank you, sister Well this is a podcast. Thank you, and please like, subscribe, comment, share, share, comments and, uh, please subscribe to whatever channel is you listen. That really helps get the word out. And comments and even if you disagree with something that we said, right, comments really help move the conversation forward in the Jesus United direction. To make him known. The days are too short to do anything. Otherwise, it's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks so much, sandy.